Help with Sick Discus

[Tom McD]

Just over two weeks ago, one of my Discus (a fish I've had for aprox. 6 years) started looking a little thin, followed by hiding, eventual
darkening in color and now head down about 45 degrees. I'm new to this website, just found it this morning. But if anyone can help, would
greatly appreciate it. More details below, and thanks in advance for sharing your wisdom:


DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started: Cobalt Discus has become very dark in color, hides, doesn’t eat, becoming emaciated, now head pointed down about 45 degrees. Two others in tank seem fine. Problem developing over past three weeks.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds) Fish initially started looking thin, then started hiding, turning dark in color, then head pointed down about 45 degrees after initial treatment. Doesn’t eat. Is becoming emaciated.

After initial Quick Cure treatment, saw two grain of salt size white spots on body of fish and one on a fin; saw some clear slime with white dots trailing off of fish and on plants the following day.

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment. Initially treated with 1/3 water change; raising temp to 92 degrees; 1/8 tsp Metro+ in water (38 gallon aquarium) every other day for 7 days; Metro+ with focus and garlic in food (thawed frozen blood worms dosage per package instructions) Healthy fish ate fine, never saw sick fish eat this mixture. Fish became more social but still didn’t eat and was beginning to become emaciated. At end of week, the fish then began to lower head 45 degrees and has been that way since.

Saw online (not here) symptoms for Bacterial Disease that seemed to describe symptoms, so did another 1/3 water change; lowered temp to 82 degrees; started treating with Quick Cure. Have administered three doses so far (dose every other day) with no change in symptoms, though day after first dose was when I saw two grain of salt size white spots on body of fish and one on a fin; saw some clear slime with white dots trailing off of fish and on plants near fish.

Based on info I found this AM on Simply Discus site, I added two tablespoons of aquarium salt early this afternoon. Within an hour the fish was socializing with the others and some color seemed to return, though more silver than blue. Noticed dime sized white cottony looking area on right side and slight light colored line running length of fish from just above eye to tail on both sides. Tried giving food but fish still wouldn’t eat. Shortly after the fish returned to hiding and appears dark again.

Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish. 38 gallon planted tank with 1.5 -2 inches of gravel and large rocks (approx.. 25-28 gallons of actual water.) Tank is approx.. 15 years old, in current location with set up and these fish for 6 years. 3 discus – 1 X 6-7 inches, 2 X 4-5 inches (one of these is the sick fish.)

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water? Change about 1/3 water monthly, have done this since set up of tank/gravel bottom/use bottled spring water as our tap water is VERY hard. Do not age water.


6. Parameters and water source:

- temp: normally 82; raised to 92 for week of treatment; lowered to 82 for current treatment

- pH: 6.0

- ammonia reading: 0; then 24-hours after last water change and adding Nitra-Zorb to filter, slight rise in level, ever so slight color change but not enough to indicate next level of test materials which is .250, so I would guess .125 or less.

- nitrite reading: 0

- nitrate reading: 40; then 24-hours after last water change and adding Nitra-Zorb to filter level rose to 80. (any ideas what’s up with that?)

- water source: bottled spring water


7. Any new fish/plants added recently: Added three Otocinclus about nine months ago and they did well for about three months but then they literally disappeared overnight without a trace. This has happened a few times, I always assumed the Discus were responsible. About four months ago, added three of a type I don’t recall; were recommended by the shop I go to (very good resource) looked almost identical to Otocinclus but were a little larger and supposed to grow to 6 inches. They were doing well for about a month and then the first two disappeared followed by the third a couple weeks later. About a month after that my discus started having issues.

[Moon]

You may have some water quality issues. The Nitrate reading confirms my assessment. Discus cannot tolerate high Nitrate levels.
It looks like the H2OQ has led to some bacterial issues. I would increase your WC regime to daily. When you have done this you will see improvements in your fish health.

[strawberryblonde]

How hard is very hard water? Mine is very hard with super high pH, but my domestic discus are doing very well in it. They're even attempting to breed and that seems to be working.

The reason I'm asking about your tap water is that doing larger water changes more often is the best course of action at this point and if you keep using spring water it's gonna cost a pretty penny. If you can manage to use even half tap water and half spring water (use more spring water in the first few changes and gradually reduce it so you don't have a huge pH swing) and add some dechlorinator it will decrease the costs.

Since your new fish additions keep disappearing and you don't find them to remove them when they die I'd guess that it is indeed a water quality issue that you're seeing right now. Discus do better if you can keep nitrates below 5ppm...they're very sensitive to nitrates.

You must have been doing something right all these years if your discus were healthy in your tank, so at this point try just dealing with the current water quality issue and see if that doesn't return the tank to normal before you start medicating.

[Tom McD]

Thank you both for the feedback. I was taken aback when I saw that Nitrate level and can't understand why it's going up even with the WC and Nitra-Zorb addition. But will follow your advice and increase the WCs. I've never taken a hardness reading on our tap water (well water) but it's hell on our appliances. The couple of times early on that I did use tap water, got algae blooms as a result, though don't know why as Nitrite and Nitrate reading on the tap are both zero. pH is about 7.5. I like the idea of mixing the bottled and tap water though, never thought of that. Will definitely give it a go. And again, thank you both for your wisdom!

[jimg]

is there a lot of waste hidden in the gravel? are the filter sponges fairly clean?
As for the discus I would get it into a qt and keep an eye on it. It usually takes a lot longer than 3 weeks to become emaciated.

[Disgirl]

Also, 6 years is pretty good for a discus in your conditions. It may just be old and easily sickened. Getting thin like you describe happens over weeks or months. Discus can go a long time without food before getting thin. We will be glad to help you, just ask.
Barb

[Tom McD]

I vacuum the gravel with each WC, haven't been seeing any more waste than usual. Filter sponges are clean. What is the normal life expectancy for a Discus? Again, thanks to all for the advice!

[jimg]

I had the wild in my avatar for around 7 years was adult when I bought it. domestics I had the longest so far about 5 years. I was thinking built up waste as source of nitrates. 6 years... you've done good!

[Tom McD]

Well I lost the sick fish yesterday. The day before the fish died I again saw what appeared to be clear slime with white specs scattered uniformly within it trailing off the fish; but fish was swimming around somewhat instead of just hiding, seemed to have lightened some to silvery/blue in color and was socializing with other discus in the tank. Still would not eat. I've done a water change every other day over the past week with two 1/3 tank changes and a 50% change; nitrate level continues to hover in the 40-80 area – which rose from 20 after adding Nitra-Zorb packet added to filter – in spite of the water changes. Gravel is clean when I vacuum. Filter and sponges have been cleaned. Ammonia - 0. Nitrite - 0. I'm at a loss as to the rise in Nitrate level and that nothing seems to bring it down at all. Two remaining discus in the tank so far seem to be fine (fingers crossed...)

[judy]

Something is amiss somewhere. What is the nitrate level of the fresh water you are adding? Nitrate just cannot rise like that on its own-- you would be seeing ammonia and nitrite in the tank first if it was a cycle for some reason (like scrubbing all your filter materials with fresh tapwater and killing the biofilter, instead of just rinsing them). Your remaining discus will not survive an 80 nitrate reading for long... the only thing I can think of is that the water you are adding durig changes must be nitrate-loaded...

[Skip]

good gawd.. once i got to the part where you did monthly water changes.. i stopped reading LOL!!!

discus need more water changes then that... Clear Water does not Mean GOOD water... bummer about the loss..
first thing you should do if a fish is acting strangely.. is up the water changes.. to daily.. Water quality is the problem AND solution for just about EVERY discus problem... plus that was a lot of meds to throw at the fish in an already weak state.. i am sure that did not help... always do water changes BEFORE you start SHOTGUNNING meds :)

[Tom McD]

I had thought about the source water and did a check on it at the beginning of this whole ordeal. Source water levels are all zero for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. I did just rinse the filter sponges with tap water (non-chlorinated well water) and did not scrub anything. Quick Cure will affect the bio filter, but Nitrate level was elevated before adding. Checked levels again last night and ammonia is a trace (less than .125) Nitrite is 0; Nitrate 60-80 range; less than 24 hours after a 50% water change, no different than before the change. As for the monthly water changes, well, the fish have thrived for six years on that regimen; four others had thrived for five years before that on the same regimen before I had to give those away due to a move. Not saying it can't be that, but why the sudden change after six years and why no improvement with WC every other day...

[judy]

Rinsing those filters with just tap will probably have knocked back the biofilter some. as for the nitrates, the only thing I can speculate is that I know water changes too seldom cause a buildup of nitrates, eventually to toxic levels. but why yours is bouncing to those highs after large WCs, I do not know. All I can suggest is to keep up large (60 or 70% at least) daily WCs and monitor the nitrates. You''ll need to do daily WCs anyway, as that trace ammonia could indicate a small cycle happening.

On your previous regimen of monthly changes: I have done much the same, with no problems, for many years, though I know it's sacrilege to many dedicated discus keepers. Yet my water's perfect and my fish happy, healthy and growing still, even though some have got to be more than five years old.

[Maria Ashton]

Hi Tom

I think Judy is right about the filter, I was advised to wash any media in aquarium water, also see if there is anywhere in your tank where something might be rotting and you havent noticed.

I just managed to bring down a nitrite spike from 3, ( I realise you are talking nitrates) it took well in excess of a week and was caused by a number of factors - 4 weeks ago when setting up, I disconnected the main filter for more than 12 hours which meant all the useful bacteria died, it was then turned on and spurted out at full force the dead bacteria... I think this is why one of my fish developed a hole in the head so I medicated but it all went very wrong and I had to do a large water change. Fish were darting and water quality became critical, aquarium specialist shop advised a re-dose after another 75% WC, which I did but phased the meds with UV off and better results. However I think I wiped both filters out with all the meds and I spent the next week and a half doing up to 70% WC sometimes twice a day. I also found some rotting plants lodged under one of the filters which is inbuilt and hidden behind a fake rock background.

Hope your nitrates come down soon