Heckel/Penanag Eruption croses

[JamesP]

I spawned a very large Blue Face Heckel with a Penang eruption and have ben raising the fry for a few months. The cross has produce two very distinct varieties. The Penang 14 stripes are one type and the second is the one I am most inetrested in. They are nine bared and apear to be coloring out much more like a Heckel including the center bar. I plan to raise the fry and cross either back to the male Heckel or other Heckels I curently have. I have read the stripes get lost or eradic in later generations. I hope by crosing with another pure Heckel wil help prevent this. Here are a few photos of the babies they are curently 3 1/2" plus. Their blue striations sem to start as spots and then turn into stripes and also start on the top of their heads and move back and down as they develop.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture104-1.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture107-1.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture109-1.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture093.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture091.jpg

[fattubwhale]

They Are looking Good Jim!!! Cant wait till you are ready to let some go :)
BTW, Tefe's are doing pretty good too... :D :D

[m.ingram]

Nice looking little ones will be good to see how they colour up when they get bigger:)

[yim11]

Very nice looking fish, do you have pics of the parents please?

Thanks

[fattubwhale]

Very nice looking fish, do you have pics of the parents please?

Thanks

This is from one of Jims post on another thread...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86536-Captive-Breed-Heckels/page6

[hedut]

nice fry and good cross, keep us update :)

[YSS]

Interesting indeed ...

What made you to breed those two fish? The juvies look very nice.

[JamesP]

Glad the Tefe are doing well. I will most likely keep these guys until they are at least an inch bigger. They seem to color out slower just like the Tefe. Since pure heckels are not being raised I am not sure their rate of coloration is typical time will tell.

[JamesP]

Thanks I will post more photos in a few weeks.

[JamesP]

I liked the striations in both the Penang and the Heckel. I was not sure how the Penang 14 bars would come through. Roughly 50% have the 14 bars. Here is a photo of a 14 bar fry.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture050.jpg

[TURQ64]

Here's a different view of a sibling; not to sound contrary, but I don't think this guy's gonna become 'unspotted' any time soon; they just keep popping out. Since I had seven of the mother's line,(I culled all but three, so don't tell willie!) I can definitely add that the Heckel genes contributed greatly to their roundness....Gary

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_0834.jpg

[JamesP]

Gary,

Those guys are looking nice and your right some may not develop stripes. I knew you bought some of the fry that Willie had at the same time I purchased my adult female, but I was not aware that they're related to my female. Here is a photo of her. She is built more like a male with a nice forhead and threads on the dorsal. I also included a photo of the male Heckel.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture043.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture040.jpg

[TURQ64]

Here's a couple of lousy photo's of your females 'relations'...F1's from the 'sister' of yours...willie currently has the pair that produced them..he obtained all from someone in Milwaukee who moved west....first photo is a 'nephew'

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_0845.jpg

and a 'niece' if you will...

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_0846.jpg

the female has produced wigglers with another male, who isn't doing well at present..I may put these two together, but I haven't any great expectations, other than the genes they are packing....

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Great Job James. I love the Tefes you sent me I will post pictures soon.

[JamesP]

Kraig,

I am glad you like them and I look forward to seeing pictures.

Jim

[TURQ64]

I'm headed out the door for a week or longer road trip, but I just came out of 'fish alley' and had to whip out a post. The Heckel/PE crosses are doing spectacular. They are growing like weeds; again I believe a contribution from the Heckel's genetics...There are some Tefe F1's in the same tank, and they are far outpaced by the crosses....A photo when I return, but the future looks good in Heckelville.......Gary

[JamesP]

Latest photos of some of the nine bar fry. The color keeps popping and moving back and down in their bodies. As Gary has mentioned they are agressive feeders and are growing really well with very nice comfirmation. Here are a few photos.
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/P1030664.jpg
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/P1030663.jpg
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/P1030662-1.jpg
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/P1030660.jpg
They are 4" plus right now. Note the Heckel bar. Quite a few people have inquired about buying some. I will post some for sale in a week or so. I have some XL wild Heckels coming in and need to make room for them. Those will be used to create pairs with these crosses to try and create a nine bar that produces Heckel looking fry.

Thanks,

Jim

[TURQ64]

They're looking good, matey!..Here's one of their bro's.....

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_0989.jpg

When Jim puts these up for sale, I heartily recommend them on several levels..first, they are some genetically strong Heckel crosses..second, skipping the wild factor, they are some excellent, healthy, colorful fish with fine confirmation.. They'll go well in any setting....JMO

[JamesP]

Gary,

Thanks for the support. Yours are looking very nice. I should transition them into RO and drop PH to see their real potential. Right now they are in straight tab water that is semi hard with a ph of 8. The problem is I am always short of ro water as it is and would rather use that for the breeders. As a side note the Tefe's and Heckel/Penang pairs are cleaning so finishing the fishroom plumbing was good timing. Now I need to start installing my 200 gallon holding/automated water changer which will make life much easier.

They're looking good, matey!..Here's one of their bro's.....

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_0989.jpg

When Jim puts these up for sale, I heartily recommend them on several levels..first, they are some genetically strong Heckel crosses..second, skipping the wild factor, they are some excellent, healthy, colorful fish with fine confirmation.. They'll go well in any setting....JMO

[TURQ64]

Easy to support great fish and great fish folk!...I have these guys in 6.5ph with TDS at 250....I was considering tossing a handful into the adult Heckel tank, but checking it this a.m., the ph is around 3.8, so that idea's off for me for a while...

[Ciddian]

I am very new to different type of strains, but these are lovely :)

[Second Hand Pat]

These Heckel crosses look like they will be eye candy.

[Ryan]

Jim, these guys look awesome. I really like the 9-bar ones. I've kept a few heckel crosses and they're always nice fish. I love that center bar.

[JamesP]

Ciddian,

Thanks I have really enjoyed raising them.

[JamesP]

Thanks Pat. They appear to have more of the Penang reddish vs brown coloration along with the tradition blue striations of the Heckel. If they keep growing the way they are i think they will be very large fish. The male Heckel is one of the biggest Discus I have ever seen. He is at least 8" and a great shape.

[JamesP]

Thanks Ryan. I do really like the nine bars as well.

Jim

[JamesP]

Just picked up 6 Medium Heckel for my breeding project. They are about the same size as the crosses and should be great tank mates once they go through QT. I will post photos once they settle in.

[TURQ64]

I might have to try your guy; my guy just bumped his prices up since I put in an order. We'll see come this time next week..BTW, thanks for setting that 65 aside for me..Lost my two male Red Turq's this week, so some of those crosses will go in my domestc breeding line...Heck, they should produce some nice turq's....next year will tell..sorry for the drift...As I mentioned in another thread somewhere, last week I found fungused eggs in the Heckel tank while vac'ing some stuff off the driftwood...Only two suspect females in the tank aren't looking up to par; maybe I never got all the parasites when I rec'd them....Gary

[JamesP]

Bummer about the Turq's. Eggs are fun that would be a very exciting development. I ended up with mediums because they shipped the wrong size. Oh well I need to grow out the Crosses anyways. I may order some larges in a week or so. The new ones seem to be settling in nicely. I will send you an email with prices later. Jim

[JamesP]

Well in the spirit of Black Friday the time has finally come for me to sell some of the Heckels crosses. I have a limited supply so those of you who are interested should let me know right away. These fish are about 6 months old and 4" plus in size. The details will be posted under the Hobbyist section. Here are a few photos to give you an idea of what they look like.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Simplydiscusposting/P1030808.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Simplydiscusposting/P1030784.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Simplydiscusposting/P1030660.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Simplydiscusposting/P1030817.jpg
As a reminder these are a cross between a very large male Blue Faced Heckel and a Penang Eruption. The fry have two distinct bar and coloration patterns. The nine bar have thicker blue striations along with the traditional heckel bar and red markings and halo. The second type has 14 bars and finer blue striation more like a leopard variety. Both will be great additions to anyones breeding program and looking for confirmation and wild blood. Check out the hobbyist section for the new posting with additional photos and pricing.

Thanks,

Jim

[kent1963]

Jim how much are you selling your extras for? I've actually got room for some fish at the moment but I'm low on funds! Maybe by the time you have more fry I'll have both space and cash! Looking forward to seeing more pics. Oops you beat me with the pics by the way your pm box is full!

[TURQ64]

Man oh man, and I'm broke!..I could use another dozen, but best of luck on the sale..These guys are really the bomb!...Size wise, they are larger than Tefe's several months older..I think they'll be huge fish..

[JamesP]

Man oh man, and I'm broke!..I could use another dozen, but best of luck on the sale..These guys are really the bomb!...Size wise, they are larger than Tefe's several months older..I think they'll be huge fish..
I understand I want to thin these so I can add more wilds to my collection.

Jim how much are you selling your extras for? I've actually got room for some fish at the moment but I'm low on funds! Maybe by the time you have more fry I'll have both space and cash! Looking forward to seeing more pics. Oops you beat me with the pics by the way your pm box is full!
Kent thanks for letting me know about my inbox. I also sent you a pm as well as have posted the Heckel crosses for sale in the Hobbyist section.

Thanks,

Jim

[JamesP]

New videos of Heckel/Penang Eruption juveniles along with one with nine bars and wild Heckel juveniles.
http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/?action=view&current=WildHeckeland9bars.mp4
http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/?action=view&current=Ninebartank4.mp4
http://s1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/?action=view&current=9and14bar.mp4

Hope you enjoy the feeding frenzies.

[JamesP]

Well I thought it was time to update the photos for my grow out group of heckel crosses. They are around 5" and growing like mad. There are two distinct stripe pattern 9 bar from the Heckel and 14 Bar from the Penang female. They have really begun to color out very nicely.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030993.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030991.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030984.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030982.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030944.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030946.jpg
Two on left are wild Heckels and next one is cross. Notice the red on dorsal.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030957.jpg
Mix of Heckel and crosses
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030953.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Penang%201%204%202012/P1030948.jpg

[JamesP]

I thought it was time to post an update on these guys. The continue to amaze me in their color and confirmation. The 14 bars are really starting to show their colors and the 9 bars continue to grow at an amazing pace with great confirmation.A few of the photos include some wild Heckels I am growing out. Enjoy.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040001.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040002.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040007.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040016.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040009.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040010.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040012.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040011.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040017.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040018.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040019.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040024.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040025.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040027.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040023.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040020.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/1%2031%202012%20Heckel%20crosses/P1040021.jpg

[nc0gnet0]

They look real nice, but it gets kinda confusing looking at both the cross's and the heckels together. ;)

[JamesP]

Thanks. That is the ultimate goal.

[TURQ64]

I'm amazed at the coloring up of the 14 bars..None of mine have colored out that far yet. A good example of dietary differences, I guess..Looking great, matey.

[JamesP]

Gary,

I know when I mad the trek to you house I noticed yours have more red base which as you said must be diet. Maybe we should merge the diets to see how red and blue we can make them.;)

I'm amazed at the coloring up of the 14 bars..None of mine have colored out that far yet. A good example of dietary differences, I guess..Looking great, matey.

[TURQ64]

I did start last week on adding stuff for more 'blues'...double dose spirolina and krill flakes, along with some Naturose enhanced 'red' since Prime Reef got scarce...

[DiscusKev]

Always nice to see Heckel crosses, they're looking great, good job!
-I agree, it is confusing to look at both, but both are still pretty :D

[JamesP]

Thanks they continue to color out. I guess the reason I posted photos with both pure wild Heckels and the crosses was to show how similar they are. Nice to get the wild look with a tank raised fish.

[JamesP]

I thought I would post an update on the Heckel crosses. They are now about 10 months old and about 6" TL. The continue to grow at a much faster rate than the wild Heckels I am raising with them. Here are some photos.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Cross%204%208%202012/P1040677.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Cross%204%208%202012/P1040666.jpg
Heckels and crosses mixed
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Cross%204%208%202012/P1040667.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Cross%204%208%202012/P1040669.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Cross%204%208%202012/P1040651.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Cross%204%208%202012/P1040648.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Cross%204%208%202012/P1040645.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Heckel%20Cross%204%208%202012/P1040632.jpg

[TURQ64]

Haven't been on much, and these guys were out front today, so, I figured I'd knock some dust off this thread.. here's a few fresh photo's of these crosses that are intermingled with an all Heckel grouping...

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0490_zps19ffc77c.jpg
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0487_zps89908e98.jpg
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0488_zps1a1b3719.jpg

Several are starting to pair up in another tank, and a few Heckel's show strong interest in these guys...You may see an 'alien' on occasion from this tank, as I introduced Marmokrebs into it a while back, and there are actually a few surviving young....the adults are good in the clean up dept...

[Discus-n00b]

Very very very nice fish.

[John_Nicholson]

Looking great Gary.

-john

[dadecountyalan]

i LOVE them.

[Poco]

Great looking fish but confusing at the same time (in a good way) :D

[Harry Marsh]

Awesome

[TURQ64]

Great looking fish but confusing at the same time (in a good way) :D

Thanks; not sure on any 'confusion', as it's pretty clear from my end....

Adult male Heckel

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/IMG_0709.jpg

Sub-adult female(?) Heckel cross

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0488_zps1a1b3719.jpg

Seems to me that the strong Heckel traits pushed right on thru'...

[DiscusOnly]

Gary,

Any pictures of the 14 bar crossed?

[DLFL]

Beautiful fish!

[Second Hand Pat]

These F1s are paying true honor to the heckel side of the cross, Man they are nice.

[TURQ64]

Gary,

Any pictures of the 14 bar crossed?
Van, these photo's are from my large Heckel tank with structure, etc..The 14 bars are mixed with 9 bars, and some Giant Blues in a different tank. They are always sparring, so I'll try for a decent photo, but they aren't much on cooperating at this age..

[Eddie]

Phenomenal fish...absolutely phenomenal! LOVE the clean heckel pattern! Would kill to have these!

[ashaysathe]

Those are exact words that came to mind Eddie. On forum after a long time and what a way to start. Absolutely fantastic. Your shoud take pride in this. Bravo !!!!

[Wildcaught dutchman]

@Turq64:Really like your fishes.Beautiful and very good photos too.Amazing the last photo!!!:o

[DiscusOnly]

Van, these photo's are from my large Heckel tank with structure, etc..The 14 bars are mixed with 9 bars, and some Giant Blues in a different tank. They are always sparring, so I'll try for a decent photo, but they aren't much on cooperating at this age..

Thanks Gary. What's the water param that you have them in?

Van

[JamesP]

Gary the X's are looking nice.
Here are a few photos of the fine line 14 bars from the Heckel breeding that I have kept for personal future breeding stock. They are roughly 15 months old now and still growing, coloring and thickening up. There is a wide range of coloration from very powder blue to brown based light and dark. I also threw a couple of 9 bar photos in. I couldn't resist. The 9 bars are in dimmer lighting to test if they will express the Heckel bar better. Others in lighter surrounding have a lighter background brown compared to the dimmer lit ones. The 14 bars for whatever reason are more aggressive than the 9 bars and tend to nip each other. You may see some ragged edges in the photos.
The first photo is of the mother and a portion of the fry early on.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/Picture022-1.jpg
Fineline with blue base. The fish tail to tail with the light bue fine line is a nine bar with Heckel bar slightly showing.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050075_zpse1b49506.jpg
Blue based fineline.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050035_zps6f8c2bb3.jpg
Darker brown base fineline.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050029_zps583f84ee.jpg
Closeup of the face I really like the gill plates on the finelines.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050027_zps5fdbe02b.jpg
Fineline lighter brown base
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050032_zps4cc1540b.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050033_zpsad3e2cd1.jpg
Nine Bar
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050072_zps785880e8.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050077_zps143ddfb2.jpg

[Eddie]

Gorgeous!

[JamesP]

Thanks Eddie
Gorgeous!

[DiscusOnly]

wow.. I really like those 9 bars. Thanks for posting pictures of the 14 bars.

[TURQ64]

Van, Here's a couple from the 180...No light, no flash, hence no external coloration...

14 bar cross

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0501_zps48100081.jpg

9 Bar and 14 Bar crosses pairing

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0503_zps80b440a8.jpg
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0502_zps30763ceb.jpg

Water is now acidic; I lowered them from 350 TDS down to 45 over the last two months in prep for any more joining the Heckel group, which is very acidic..ph today is 5.1

[DiscusOnly]

Thanks Gary.

Reason I asked about the water param is because I've been trying to fix my water params. My tap is semi soft and I think that is causing their fin to be on the "ragged" side. When I do try to add trace elements in the water, they are not quite as happy and since I do daily WC, it's just a waste.

Van

[TURQ64]

even with the 180 and 300, I'm changing 50% every other day..Haven't noticed any ragged fins either way; at high TDS, or low...is it softener water (sodium ions)?..yeah, with wc's, additives are a tuff sell...I still just juggle product/reject for minerals..Just a guess, but Jim's may still be in higher TDS and ph...

[DiscusOnly]

Gary,

My tap TDS is around 110-120 off tap. I use a whole house water filter prior to tap and another carbon after faucet. I am thinking that I am removing too much stuff (I switched filter 6 months ago, so I have to double check to see that that one does). The thing is that it's only an issue with the heckel crosses. No issue like this in my other tanks.

Van

[JamesP]

I have mine in several different conditions. Most are in straight tap and or with reject added so TDS of 300 or more. Others are in virtually straight RO with TDS of less than 20. It doesn't seem to matter they all are doing great. They are only sensitive when I am gone for a week and have higher than normal ammonia. I have my better half flushing tanks in the middle of the week and this has helped that issue. Only ones I have with ragged edges is definitely nipping and not water conditions. None of my 9 bars have been nippers though. Only the 14's.

[Harry Marsh]

I am one of many people wondering 'how much' for the 9 bar :)

[JamesP]

Truthfully I have sold all that I am selling unless there was a trade out there that could work with my breeding program. Pewo's might be of interest. The last four I sold were fish I brought to Atlanta for NADAthe and one of them won the breeder award even though it was a young fish. Early on I was truthfully amazed at how hard it was to sell the Heckel cross fry. Those who saw the potential got a great deal. Now I have lots of folks trying to buy them. They are starting to show signs of pairing off and I have to see them through to second generation fry. I have other Heckel along with the original male for crosses as well as crossing F1's together. I also want to bring a few three year old fish to TX to see how they are judged when they are full grown. Let me know if you have something I can use in my breeding plans. By the way the nine bars should breed true meaning nine bars. The heckle bar is the wild card and why I want to cross back with a Heckel to try and lock it in. 14 bar genetics is dominant and if not reflected in the fish it is not present. I am always open to trades.

Jim
As the current grow out contest proceeds on Simply I am going to enjoy watching the results. I have over a year into these fish and fully appreciate the satisfaction and frustration folks are going to experience. I wish all contest participants.

I am one of many people wondering 'how much' for the 9 bar :)

[DiscusOnly]

Gary, Jim:

Here are a few pictures of mine.

[DiscusOnly]

Here is a video from last night after a water change.

Jim: What's your thoughts on the fin issue I have?

Click to watch

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu341/DiscusOnly/PE%20Heckel%20Crossed/th_DSC_0053.jpg (http://s662.photobucket.com/albums/uu341/DiscusOnly/PE%20Heckel%20Crossed/?action=view&current=DSC_0053.mp4)

[JamesP]

Van,

I have not seen this before. I have a few fish with obvious rips from fighting. But if you are not seeing obvious fighting I really don't know. They look very nice in shape and color. Sorry I am not more help.

[DiscusOnly]

Jim,

All credits goes to you for growing them out to a nice size before sending them to me.

I've had discus that loses their fin and grow back and that is what they constantly look like. Kinda like longer fin growing out at the edges. I do see a bit of body scars at time on a few so I know their is a bit of aggression.

[TURQ64]

Fish are looking good overall..Looks pathogenic to me, Van..I've had similar in the past that started like a simple case of fin rot, but then heads into the hard rays...possible protozoan like Epistylis..

[Eddie]

Nice fish in the video! We've had several members with the same fin condition. For the most part, it seemed related to water. I've seen pictures of fish that had their fins cut and went through treatment and the fins grew back and began to develop those same rough edges all over again.

[DiscusOnly]

Thanks Eddie. That's what my experience is but the thing I can't figure out is why it keeps on happening.

This is what I am seeing all the time.

Van

http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu341/DiscusOnly/PE%20Heckel%20Crossed/DSC_0067.jpg

[Eddie]

What are your water parameters? Do you age your water?

Sorry for derailing your thread Gary.

[DiscusOnly]

Fish are looking good overall..Looks pathogenic to me, Van..I've had similar in the past that started like a simple case of fin rot, but then heads into the hard rays...possible protozoan like Epistylis..

Gary,

Do you suggest something like quick cure to knock out any nasties?

Van

[TURQ64]

There's a handful of bugs that cause what we call 'fin rot'..generally columnare, but not always..sometimes happens even with big daily wc's..the bugs are just naturally there..Anyhoo, either something with Formalin, or PP..whichever you're comfortable with..easy to rid, just takes perseverance and time...I had a Rose Red last year I was just short of tossing on the floor after treating due to the lsack of dorsal hard rays..they've all grown perfect again....Also, they are old enough that infighting could be causing stress levels to allow the bugs to get an upper hand...

[Eddie]

Van, if you do treat the fish, make sure you cut the fins at the area before they split. They will never mend together from those splits. They have to regenerate and grow out evenly.

Here's some insight.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?74419-Frayed-Fins&highlight=

[TURQ64]

These are some pretty damned hardy fish..I've lost a few to head bashing into tanks, but other than that, they are very vigorous through most all types of adversity..This doesnt look serious enough for trimming IMO.Look at what they went through getting to you, and weigh it out......Gary

[DiscusOnly]

These are some pretty damned hardy fish..I've lost a few to head bashing into tanks, but other than that, they are very vigorous through most all types of adversity..This doesnt look serious enough for trimming IMO.Look at what they went through getting to you, and weigh it out......Gary

Oh great.. Gary.. you going to remind me to how furious I am with Fedex again?

I agree.. these are hardy fish for sure.

Van

[JamesP]

Van

Does the Tefe I sent you have this issue? Also did this start right after receiving them or a more recent issue? As Gary mentioned the infighting has jumped 10 fold with their raging hormones and all. They get jumpier and seem much less settled/stressed as they tussle to pair off. Nice side benefit is the great Heckel bar display.

[DiscusOnly]

Van

Does the Tefe I sent you have this issue? Also did this start right after receiving them or a more recent issue? As Gary mentioned the infighting has jumped 10 fold with their raging hormones and all. They get jumpier and seem much less settled/stressed as they tussle to pair off. Nice side benefit is the great Heckel bar display.

Jim,

No issue with the Tefe or my other discus. The Tefe is in another tank with the other wilds. I believe this is just recent. To be honest, I have not paid much attention to these discus for a few months. I just do WC and feed them. Looking at pictures I had of them back in March, the fins were normal. I am not counting out aggression when I am not watching them.


http://i662.photobucket.com/albums/uu341/DiscusOnly/PE%20Heckel%20Crossed/2012-03-23_23-09-54_369.jpg

[JamesP]

That Tefe frustrated the heck out of me. I had other pairs and could neverget it to pair off. I even tried Heckels and they battled but never did pair with her. I hope you figure it out because that is one of the nicest greens I have seen. As far as the Crosses go I would push water chages and follow Eddie and Gary's advice since I have never dealt with this. Let me know what you try and the results.

[TURQ64]

I still think some agressive sparring and slapping is causing the tearing, followed up by a few nasties taking advantage..Should clear up with some wc's and observation..if the rays seem funky, I'd still treat...are the crowded up?..I try to keep mine packed up, but they have some room right now, and the sparring has increased....just thoughts..

[DiscusOnly]

Gary,

These 6 are in a 75gal barebottom. They have been in the same setup since the day I got them from Jim. Never mixed these fish with any other discus. Only had some young ABN and currently two adult inspector pleco. They get about 70% WC daily straight from tap.

This is what I did yesterday. Shut down the AC110 filter and clean the entire filter. Did another 50% WC around 5AM this morning.

I am going to try to clean them up with WC for now and monitor for a week or so. I did notice quite a bit of aggression going on but my gut feeling is that it's the water.

[DiscusOnly]

That Tefe frustrated the heck out of me. I had other pairs and could neverget it to pair off. I even tried Heckels and they battled but never did pair with her. I hope you figure it out because that is one of the nicest greens I have seen. As far as the Crosses go I would push water chages and follow Eddie and Gary's advice since I have never dealt with this. Let me know what you try and the results.

Jim,

Maybe she is a he? I still have not that out.

[TURQ64]

Van, Overall that sounds like the best plan..these two nine bars were bowing all morning, much to the interest of the rest of the tank's inhabitants. There's also a 9 bar/ 14 bar pair forming in there, so the fish pheromones are definitely flying..

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0542-1.jpg

[DiscusOnly]

That's a great shot. It will be very interesting to see what they will produce. I'll be happy if any percentage of the offspring will look like these in the picture.

Van

[blueangel150]

nice parents specially the heckel wish i can by some!!!! :)

[Alfredo Llecha]

If somebody has some Heckels crosses or F1 wilds, let me know.

[Cosgrovb]

How old are the crosses now?

[Alfredo Llecha]

I will need some Heckel crosses, either Heckel or Eruption types, just for crossing back with Heckels I have.

[Harry Marsh]

Any picture updates?

[Eddie]

Any picture updates?

I know right...I need my fix! LOL

[Cosgrovb]

I keep looking too.

[DiscusOnly]

Me too.

[JamesP]

Sorry for the slow response. I have been busy with work. I work with insurance companies and Sandy has created a lot of extra work. Anyways I was notified tonight that this thread did not belong in the Heckel/Wild section and has been moved to Breeder section. I don't get it but whatever. The Heckel X's are roughly 16 months old and they range from 5 1/2" to 6 1/2" in size. I just moved them into a larger tanks with a Heckel and a Juparu to stir things up along with a large log to darken the water. I am also feeding Glass Worms which is a great live food and should help induce spawning. The sparring has definitely begun. Here are a few photos.
After I moved the Heckel X's into the tank my wife let me know there were eggs on one of the filters earlier in the week when i was gone. The only fish in the tank were the Heckel and the Juparu. So I am going to separate them to see if I can get a second pair going with a Heckel. I am really hoping the female is the Heckel. I know I have a confirmed male Heckel and would love to chase the holy grail of Discus breeding a true Heckel pair.
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050193.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050120.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050104.jpg
http://i1083.photobucket.com/albums/j398/gjim98/P1050093-1.jpg

[TURQ64]

Nice photo's Jim.Glad to hear you are getting some action out of these guys. After my summer Idaho trip, it seems my population went down while Kathy was minding the ranch,so..as for the remaining stock, I have several X's that are monsters also. One is continually trying to steal away the female Heckel in my Heckel pair, and the rest have seemed to pair up with the exception of the remaining 14 bars..I'm figuring that they'll get busy whenever I can pull out the current pairs from the community tank...As for 'relocating' this thread, oh well..sh*t happens...give me a shout when you've got a minute....

[Harry Marsh]

Very nice. I like 'em

[bobdon]

GREAT FISH.WAS FROM MN.

[DiscusOnly]

Thanks for the update Gary/Jim. Looks like we are close to seeing some frys soon.

I definitely see at least one female in my group. My smallest one (think is a she) is becoming very territoral is coloring up with a dark halo after water changes. I don't have any wild Heckel with play with so if anything, I'll see if thye pair up among the group or with a PE that I threw in the tank with them.

Van

[TURQ64]

Van, The Heckel X 9 bar/ Giant Blue Turks are posted elsewhere with attached fry. I have two of my 14 bars pairing up now also, along with another 9 bar/ Giant Blue duo...My prize large 9 bar (now bigger thasn a one gallon paint can lid) is in with two more 9 bars and some medium Heckels, but since the big 9 bar was breaking my true Heckel pair up, I moved them..awaiting maybe a few new adult Heckels to toss in as replacements..All I can say is 'Change more water!'..they're ready now..caution!!!!..they get jumpy as hell when paired...Wild instincts kicking in..I lost two to a tank wall learning this last week....GAry

[DiscusOnly]

Van, The Heckel X 9 bar/ Giant Blue Turks are posted elsewhere with attached fry. I have two of my 14 bars pairing up now also, along with another 9 bar/ Giant Blue duo...My prize large 9 bar (now bigger thasn a one gallon paint can lid) is in with two more 9 bars and some medium Heckels, but since the big 9 bar was breaking my true Heckel pair up, I moved them..awaiting maybe a few new adult Heckels to toss in as replacements..All I can say is 'Change more water!'..they're ready now..caution!!!!..they get jumpy as hell when paired...Wild instincts kicking in..I lost two to a tank wall learning this last week....GAry

Thanks for the tip Gary. I need to put a heater in my RO holding water now that it's cold again. I am going to start moving to RO water for WC.

Van

[JamesP]

Van,

Like Gary said they get spooky and jump when they first start pairing off. Never had any others act quite like them. TDS is at 55 to 60 which seems to have gotten them very excited. I also added a large log that leaches tannins like mad. Darker the water the more the battles are happening.

[JamesP]

This is a video I took last night. They were feeding on Glass Worms and are trying to figure out their pairings. Both the thick and fine lines are from the Heckel Penang cross. The fine lines are still coloring out and have a lot of promise.
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/th_Heckelcross12222012_zps3c2808f6.jpg (http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/Heckelcross12222012_zps3c2808f6.mp4)

[Eddie]

Damn James, those 9 bar are phenomenal!

[JamesP]

Damn James, those 9 bar are phenomenal!
Thanks Eddie, I just replaced my RO membranes today so time to get some pairs.

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie, I just replaced my RO membranes today so time to get some pairs.

Would be nice to see what F2 throws.

[Cosgrovb]

This guys quite interesting....

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/24/emajevuh.jpg

[JamesP]

This guys quite interesting....

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/12/24/emajevuh.jpg

That is the Penang side of the pairing throwing the fine lines and snake gills. I hope to pair up a couple of them to see what they produce as well. The striations are still developing on them as well. Who would think this fish has Heckel genetics.

[JamesP]

Would be nice to see what F2 throws.
I am excited to see what they produce along with the crosses Gary is raising. I plan to use the father to see what the line bred cross will produce. It has been taken almost 2 years to get to this point. Hopefully patience will pay off.

[DiscusOnly]

Jim,

Great to see that Gary have been able cross them with another line and you getting ready to breed them. I started breaking mine up (taking out 2 at a time out of the 75gal thinking that they are pairing)

I left 2 in the 75gal and this is what I saw this morning. Excuse the bad picture. I need to clean the tank and use my regular camera. I just didn't want to disturb them too much.

I got eggs.

77073

Van

[TURQ64]

Jim, they're looking great!........Van, good deal,matey...I've a 9 bar/ 14 bar pair cleaning now, so we'll see if they take off..Way to go, guys...these have been some naturally great parents...hasta be the genetics, both in the parent and the fry..they attach like magnets...Gary

[dadecountyalan]

Damn James, those 9 bar are phenomenal!

hell yes

[JamesP]

Well I had a very late Christmas present last night. Two of the Heckel crosses (one fine line and one 9 bar) layed eggs and they seem to be fertile at this point only a few fungused eggs. Here are the happy pair.
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/P1050318_zpsb048fb4c.jpg
and eggs
http://i1115.photobucket.com/albums/k552/jimgallagher1/P1050317_zps94f56313.jpg
I missed the act so I will have to sort out male and female another time. Now I just need to get them their own room.;)

[DiscusOnly]

That's great news Jim!

Talk about consistency in their timeline.

Mine, the eggs turned white so it's not fertilized. They were not on RO so will do the switch today and see if they will do it again.

Van

[JamesP]

That's great news Jim!

Talk about consistency in their timeline.

Mine, the eggs turned white so it's not fertilized. They were not on RO so will do the switch today and see if they will do it again.

Van
Van, Thanks it has been about 18 months to get to this point. Funny my RO membranes were marginal and I replaced them the other night and in a matter of a couple of days, they spawned. Good luck with yours. It will be interesting to see how much the fry are similar or different from their parents.

Jim

[CliffsDiscus]

James,
Nice going, any spotted from the cross?

Cliff

[TURQ64]

Jim, I'm glad Santa was good to you too!....Hopefully, they'll be like those here, and be naturals on attachment....my similar pair has lost interest at the moment, so I'll have to watch yours for a while!...Gary

[fattubwhale]

These guys/gals are looking phenomenal! You guys have done an amazing job with them! Looking forward to some juvies in the near future :):)

[Eddie]

NICE!

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Very nice!!!!

[JamesP]

Cliff all off spring are striated 9 and 14 bar.
Gary I am waiting to see how they do on their first go around. I need to isolate them and then we will see how they do.
Pierre with Gary and myself there should be some nice options.
Thanks Eddie and Kraig

[TURQ64]

Jim, looks like my 9 bar / 14 bar pair spawned this evening, but I dont think the male took part; he's just hanging on the front of the glass hunting food!....but at least she put down a big batch of eggs.....Pretty amazing on these fish's timing, in three different locales....Gary

[Cosgrovb]

Minnesota and Cali. Spawned that close. Wild. Super awesome to know the internal clock is the same regardless. Great job raising these guys!

[Gzackz]

Hi all,

I really don't want to offend anybody.
i hate to burst anyone's bubble here. let's not get too excited about "heckel-Penang Eruption" cross.
I rather call them Leopard Snakeskin as it's more accurately describe the pattern on the Penang Eruption.
Penang Eruption is just a brand name from my neighbouring country.

the F1 of two very distinctly different discus strains will only be intermediates.
they won't exhibit any signs of a new strain yet.
In fact, you will likely get fishes that will look more like the wild fish with very very strong camoflage bar markings because the wild genes are significantly superior.

you'll need at least a few more generations of inbreeding, line-breeding and then out-crossing again into other heckels and LSS to find different permutations of new strains possible.

but however, you are very much in the right direction and your first step is ingenious.
I congratulate you!
it must be very exciting.

update us on your F1's inbreeding programme and what's the F2 like.

:)

[TURQ64]

since I haven't heard much if anything from Jim and Van, I guess I'll update a bit on this breeding...A pair I have that is composed of a 9 bar and a 14 bar (siblings)..as mentioned before....I pulled around 100 fry from them 2 days ago. All really healthy and vigorous..Unfortunately, I put them in a brand spanking new tank from Petco, and have lost 30 or 40.....Cleaned it really well; haven't a clue what chemical came with it, but I'm down to 1 or 2 losses now...They are some nice confirmation F2's with both 9 and 14 bar fry....I'll try for a few photos, but I'm out of room, so the tank isnt positioned well for paparazzi....With a little luck, maybe there will be a few in this group as nice as their parents, as I'd like a few more for my display tank....Gary

[DiscusOnly]

since I haven't heard much if anything from Jim and Van, I guess I'll update a bit on this breeding...A pair I have that is composed of a 9 bar and a 14 bar (siblings)..as mentioned before....I pulled around 100 fry from them 2 days ago. All really healthy and vigorous..Unfortunately, I put them in a brand spanking new tank from Petco, and have lost 30 or 40.....Cleaned it really well; haven't a clue what chemical came with it, but I'm down to 1 or 2 losses now...They are some nice confirmation F2's with both 9 and 14 bar fry....I'll try for a few photos, but I'm out of room, so the tank isnt positioned well for paparazzi....With a little luck, maybe there will be a few in this group as nice as their parents, as I'd like a few more for my display tank....Gary

Gary,

Thanks for the update. I only have the 6 9-bars and they were spawning. One of the pair left in the 75 gal tank last spawn produced about a dozen of wigglers but I didn't bother to keep. I've decided to put them all back together in the 75 and let them grow a little more.

Van

[JamesP]

I started a new thread for the second generation. Here is the link.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?104071-Heckel-Cross-Second-Generation-Begins

Thanks,

Jim