sick royal blue discus

[paulseclipse]

So I have a royal blue (stunted) discus in my 46G bowfront. He has been doing fine for the past 2 months along with a red/turq. I also have a common pleco about 4 inches that does not bother any of the tankmates and if he ever does will be moved. I have 3 zebra danios which will be moved very soon and 4 red minor sepae tetras. I used most of the fish for cycling and they all did well. I kept the tank at 80 degrees which I know is not ideal for discus but still very fine. The tank is cycled and has been for months and like an idiot I bought what the LFS called a golden discus and did not QT it because I recently moved a fish into it to cycle it for now. The PH is high for discus but my LFS less then .1 miles away uses the same water and is fine so I didn't want to shoot for the stars per say.

The red/turq and royal blue have done fine for weeks. Greeting me coming to the room eating 3 times a day. 2 times a discus made flake food and once a day either blood worms or mysis shrimp frozen. I then added this muclarger golden discus and he went into hidding. I thought after a few days he would be fine I did my normal drip acclimation but not QT. About 4 days later I noticed the golden one rubbed on my rock decor and decided to take a good look a the tank. I noticed my royal blue had white spots on the fins so I put the temp up 2 degrees withing 12 hours and added a slight amount of freshwater aquarium salt from apit. I thought it was Ich. 12 hours later he was dark, almost black. Now I have the temperature up from 80 to 85 and working towards 86. I keep slowly adding salt to the aquarium while do 10% PWC daily. The blue guy is looking better but I noticed my red/turq today had white feces and kinda slimy almost like diareha.

I have been keeping the lights on the moonlight setting but am getting worried this may be an internal parrasite instead of Ich. The royal blue was twitching bad yesterday like he had cold chills but today he is swimming but I think his slim coat is coming off a bit. He looks to have a greenish hue like a rusted copper pipe to him around the gills and fins. The smaller red/turq is clamping one fin and a litter darker but typically his usual self. the larger golden discus looks better then the day I got him and is eating fine unlike the first 3 days.

My question is does this sound like an internal parasite. Even if not I am thinking to medicate all food before putting it in tonight and tomorrow. I HATE medications and only resort to them if needed. I should have QT the new big guy but he had been by himself at the LFS for over 2 weeks and looks really great. He is a great piece of discus. I actually almost didn't get him becuase the last day I went to he looked kinda secluded and I was like thats not been like him before. My GF talked me into it and now I am afraid he has internal parasites.

I know I did not give much water paramaters but that is because my LFS has the same as mine and they are fine. Please remember discus have come along way in the last 10 years.

Of course my tank is cycled has 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, around 10 nitrate. I do 10% PWC every 2-3 days until now. Now I am doing it every day and adding salt. Please let me know if internal sounds about right and to start medicating food ASAP before they stop eating. No other fish besides the discus show any signs of anything.

TYVM.

[Sean Buehrle]

Well it sounds like you got yourself into a pickle ,along with the fish.

Suggested temps for juvinile discus is 86 not 80. Sure they can live in 80 degree water but they are probably not comfortable.
Here's another example, you can tie a dog to a pole out in a field with no shade and it will live, but it probably isn't comfortable.
If you are keeping them in 80 degree water because of another fish's temp range , that should tell you the fish don't belong together.

Quarantine

Again alot of people get away without doing it, you didn't , hopefully these people in here can help ya out.

Your lfs's water is probably garbage water, they have hundreds of fish going thru there a month that are carrying all sorts of bugs from who knows how many suppliers, so in the future I wouldn't go comparing your water to theirs.
It's the same out of the faucet but it all goes downhill from there.

You listed your nitrate levels at 10 with 10 percent water changes a day.
I suggest you get a new test kit because that's pretty low for such small water changes. Not saying it ain't so, just improbable with the age of the tank and what it's stocked with. You should be doing bigger waterchanges to keep a discus , especially a young discus.

Take your discus and put them in a 20 gal tank, or a tank you can change all the water in every day. I wouldn't go smaller than a 20.

Don't worry about a filter because you are going to be doing 100% water changes every day.

Don't feed them till someone tells you too.

Temp 86

Alot of air
I know you listed alot of info but,
Fill out the disease questionaire in the disease and meds sticky section.

It sounds like they have internal and external problems going on.

Someone will help you, good luck.

[boxters]

twitching is almost always a result of an external problem, the biggest of which are gill flukes which attach to the gill filaments and cause the fish to twitch as it irritates them. I would suggest a short bath in potassium permanganate. 10 litters tank water in a bucket add and dissolve 4 grams of potassium permanganate and bath all the fish for no longer than 8 seconds. Yes you read correct only 8 seconds. Any more than that will cause serious damage and death. After the bath return them to the tank and ill bet they will be fine. Good luck

[Skip]

up the WC for sure to DAILY and at least 50% you should see results in about 5-6 days.. you need to make sure WATER Quality is NOT the issue.. if you don't like meds.. the Eliminate all the possiblites and water is the first

[paulseclipse]

I appreciate the input you guys are giving me already in a timely matter.

As for the temperature range I used liveaquaria to get my fish stats of what is acceptable. They listed the discus temp range of 75-86 so I figured 80 was more then okay. I realize now that I should keep it up alot more and will do so even though the first two have done extremely well at 80 before this new addition. I bought API general cure with has metro and prazi as the active ingredients. I am currently soaking some food in tank water for at least an hour before feeding them. I will also hit lowes and pick up 2 more 5g buckets to do larger water changes.

My nitrates are really that low. I use API master freshwater kit and shake according to directions. I know it's accurate as during cycling it was at zero and after cycling it jumped to about 5 then up to 20 after water changes its been steady at 10-20. I always test prior to water changes not after. The LFS also confirmed with their kit my nitrates were exactly what I was reading.

I want to update today from what I have seen from the last hour since being home from work. My royal blue is still dark slightly appearing greenish like a tarnish around upper and lower fins and gills. He also has a white belly from the jaw to the bottom fin and a white stripe just before back fin. On the good note he is swimming more normal and I don't notice at least for the little bit any clamping of fins on any of them. Also the golden one is out and about alot more. the red/turq pepper look is a little more spread out though. All other fish seem to be doing well with slow heat adjustment and salt. I was afraid for the tetras but I don't want to move any of them till this is all clear. I would rather a tetra die then any discus. As aweful as that sounds I am much more attached to my discus.

I will be adding a slight more amount of salt tonight and tomorrow I will do a 20-30% water change. I always age my water 24 hours so I can't do it tonight before I have the buckets. Also I use nutrafin dechlorinator at an amount to remove chloramine because I do not know for sure if my water has it so I treat in case it does.

I do have one question maybe I am just naive. What is the poing of doing 50% or more PWC per day? It seems to me if I do too much water changes the biological filtration would never be able to grow enough to keep up with the amount of waste and once you start doing that you would have to always do that without a mini-cycle. If my water conditions are fine with nitrates what is the point? I don't know if this helps but I do have a much larger HOtB penguin bio wheel filter then needed for my tank and maybe thats why I have lower nitrate readings.

Again thank you for all the help I was a bit skeptical to post after seeing alot of people being bashed on. You have been helpfull without the insults. I will keep posting daily for updates whether they all get better or worse and hopefully it will help others as well.

[Skip]

I do have one question maybe I am just naive. What is the poing of doing 50% or more PWC per day? It seems to me if I do too much water changes the biological filtration would never be able to grow enough to keep up with the amount of waste and once you start doing that you would have to always do that without a mini-cycle. If my water conditions are fine with nitrates what is the point? I don't know if this helps but I do have a much larger HOtB penguin bio wheel filter then needed for my tank and maybe thats why I have lower nitrate readings..

ok.. welcome to SD..

second.. the Majority of Just about ALL discus Problems is WATER QUALITY>.. the Cleaner the Water, the Healther the fish.. lesser WC.. the more HEALTH problems appear.. thats just a proven fact by all the years of experience from SD members..

3. the bio filter will not be affected.. the Bacteria will be housed in your bio filters.. so get more clean water helps them do less work and they are more efficent.. ps.. make sure you use a good dechlor. like PRIME or SAFE..

hope this helps..

[Sean Buehrle]

I do believe you want to do the best you can for your fish and think your doing enough.
Water changes are the key to successful discus keeping, they dont tolerate poor water conditions.
Skip the buckets and get yourself a plasyic trash can from lowes and a water pump in the garden section, it will probably cost you about 60 bucks.
Believe me it will be the best thing you Ever purchased for tank maintenance. It makes changing water a breeze.
You can fill a barrel or trash can with water from your faucet add dechlorinator and use immediately .

Discus don't tolerate old water well, you can tell the difference between a tank of discus that get regular water changes and one that doesn't.



It's up to you, they are your fish.

[paulseclipse]

Just an update....

After turning on my aquarium lights to feed then medicated food..... The royal blue is gaining back colors although not perfect yet but looks a lot better. They all ate and even the golden is grazing for the first time ever. I think temps and salt are doing the trick. They are all up front recognizing me and saying hi.

Blue guy is still discolored but non are twitching or clamping fins. Red/truq is less peppered and happy. Even without the huge water changes they seem to be on a road to recovery. Hopefully within a day or two the medicated food will finish it all.

I will update tomorrow to the new status of all of them but as of now everything seems to be going well.

Again Ty for the help and long live my discus.

[paulseclipse]

Another update...

I don't know if my increased water changes caused this or not but yesterday I got my first readings of ammonia since my cycle. Although it was low at .25 ppl that's way too high for discus I know. I also noticed a very slight amount of fin rot on the royal blue and the golden. My red/turq still looks fine. I am still doing 30% pwc daily to hope it goes away on its own. The royal blue has regain about 50% of its color so I'm hoping this mini cycle will now get him back to where he was before.

I'm still doing salt, heat, and pwc to hope for the best. At least they are not going downhill. The golden is eating fine and in fact better then when I first got him and even better then a day ago. I'm hoping within another week of daily wc with heat and salt will clear this but the larger golden I did witness him scratching on a rock once today.

I will update water conditions and fish soon. Once again even tho still not perfect things seem to be improving except for ammonia all the sudden.

[Maria Ashton]

A lot of people on here recommend up to 90% wc everyday whilst dealing with sickness and not using medicine in the water, I usually do 75 - 80% when I have a problem with my discus, I have been through a few disasters in the last three months, being new and lacking in knowledge. I can tell you that the better the water the healthier your fish, clean water enables your fish to get better faster - think of hospitals and clean environments for sick people. In my local aquarium specialist they do 90% wc on their discus every day. They have some of the most amazing discus I have ever seen.

50% wc per day will not harm your bio filter and it can only help your fish. Do a greater volume if you can.

Good luck, they seem to be on the mend so fingers crossed

[Owl]

50% wc per day will not harm your bio filter and it can only help your fish. Do a greater volume if you can.

Good luck, they seem to be on the mend so fingers crossed

Agreed, and personally I would ditch the salt now.

[paulseclipse]

Update

Today I see the royal blue with about 80% color regained. He also is now back to pecking at the Red/turq like before. He is very active and eating more then the others. They all still show very minor back fin decay but that should go away on its own.

In 3-4 days I will start to slowly lower salt back down but not too early. The larger golden will still only eat bloodworms and seems uniterested in the flake food for them. I hate that since the treat is so low in protein. I am trying to feed flake and worms at once but will only eat worms. I have mysis which he never ate but will give it a shot tomorrow otherwise I have to find another food for him.

The blue guys feces were very solid and dark. The only one that looks skimpy is the large golden which is expected since he only eats the worms.

Maybe the golden is finally acclimated and will do better on feeding shortly. At least its an uphill battle and not the other way around. Pwc are still at 20-30% daily. All other fish have done well with no signs of stress or disease even at the higher temps and salt. I also fed my true African leaf fish in another tank a danio to use them as feeders till they are gone. Just 2 left. The leaf is all by himself so even if he gets anything from the feeders I'm not worried.

I will post another update within a few days.

[Maria Ashton]

sounds like things are improving

[paulseclipse]

It hurts to say this but I am thinking of putting this discus out of his misery. I think his stunted nature and hormones in the past has made him too week. I've kept up with daily water changes and all other fish do great. The blue guy just keeps getting sick. I've seen now that its constipation and not water quality and feed them peas every few days. He must have a genetic flaw. He is sick floating sideways for a day or two then gets better but then gets worse. I'm scared his stress will eventually get them all killed. I will give it one last week with a totally new diet to see if it helps. I currently feed 3x daily discus flakes pre soaked and once daily frozen blood worms, mysis shrimp or peas. I hate to do him away but 2-3 days a week he is dark, swollen, and in ill conditions. He remains alive but i am sure he is not happy. I am doing everything and everything but once he is nursed back to health within a week he is sideways back to the bottom while all others are doing great. I hope my new homemade food will help but its not looking good. I'll reply after a week or two.