Anywhere to get great cheap discus?

[Tigga]

I've looked around and all i see is discus in the 50$ range for the 3" size i want. Is it any worse going smaller than 3" to save some money? Or am I overlooking quality dealers with better prices? Any help is appreciated, I'm just trying not to break the bank on my 65g :(.

[wdeleon01]

Where are you located?

[ericatdallas]

Where do you live? I would say you're either not looking hard enough ....

Look at the SD Sponsors, local breeders, fish club, etc.

I can think of several SD sponsors that sell 3" discus for less than $50 (in the $30-40 range)... I can also think of those same vendors selling $100 3" Discus...

Also what are you looking for? IF any cheap discus will do, you can almost get them ANYWHERE.

Most people here don't recommend anything less than 4-5" for first-timers. I managed to kill all 6 of my original 1.5" Discus. I learned a lot. Bought 15 more. I still ended up losing two... Sold six at the 4" mark (for less than $50/each). The remaining ones are from 5.5-6" (not super quality, size but decent).

Keeping in mind, I did about 2-3 50% WC per day the first two months I had them then switched to one big 75-90% WC each day. I fed them 5-6 times a day as well.

So how much work/time do you want to put into this to save a little money? How patient are you?

Personally, I enjoyed the experience of raising from 1.5" to adulthood. It's not for everyone. Be prepared for disappointment....

[discuspaul]

Sorry to say this, Tigga, but I don't believe there is any such thing as 'great,cheap' discus. They're either great for a price, or cheap if you want to invite problems or get sub-standard fish.
Where are you located, perhaps someone can help you get the best price, for quality fish, nearest to where you are.
You can go smaller than 3" if you want, but it's best to have the expertise to grow them out well from that size, and you need to be fully prepared to undertake the extra care and attention needed to keep them healthy, growing, and thriving.

[LizStreithorst]

Come to me. If I decide that you have the desire, a good eye, and a passion for the fish I will give you some good ones. If I think otherwise your out of luck. That's true for anyone. I stupidly enjoy giving my Discus away more that I enjoy selling them. It's most difficult finding people worthy of giving them to.

[JRMalick]

Liz,

Are you serious about your offer to give/sell reasonably good quality discus? I've been lurking here for a while, but just joined the forum today. I currently own an adult non-fertile pair of discus. I got them from a reputable breeder who was unable to get them to successfully spawn together or with other mates. I've had them for a year, and they're now my favorite fish. I'd like to redo a 55 gallon tank I've got with discus. I'd love to learn more about these beautiful fish!

[fishcrazed]

honestly you wont fine good discus for cheap.

rule of thumb when buyin quality discus is

$10 per inch up to 4 inch after that you should be prepare to pay $20 per inch

just my opinion but cheap discus arent healthy discus (with the exceptions of sponsers' discus but after shipping rule still the same)

[seanyuki]

hey Liz.....I want more BDs from you.....let me know when you are releasing some......this time aiming for BDs females.


Come to me. If I decide that you have the desire, a good eye, and a passion for the fish I will give you some good ones. If I think otherwise your out of luck. That's true for anyone. I stupidly enjoy giving my Discus away more that I enjoy selling them. It's most difficult finding people worthy of giving them to.

[JRMalick]

I'm certainly willing to pay up to $10 per inch, but part of what got me excited about the offer for the fish is that she's about a 2 hour drive away from me. That's quite a drive, but it might be worth for the learning experience.

[fishcrazed]

I'm certainly willing to pay up to $10 per inch, but part of what got me excited about the offer for the fish is that she's about a 2 hour drive away from me. That's quite a drive, but it might be worth for the learning experience.

2 hours is nothin lol i once drove 6 hrs and yet still didnt mind a good breeder in my area lol 2 hours of driving is alot less costly than shipping cost lol

[LizStreithorst]

I am most certainly serious. Problem is, I need to believe that the person who wants my fish is worthy of them. This means me meeting you in person at my place or at NADA or having good conversation with you via email or phone and deciding about you for myself. The faint of heart need not apply. Those with no taste need not apply. Those who want something for nothing need not apply.

[fishcrazed]

I am most certainly serious. Problem is, I need to believe that the person who wants my fish is worthy of them. This means me meeting you in person at my place or at NADA or having good conversation with you via email or phone and deciding about you for myself. The faint of heart need not apply. Those with no taste need not apply. Those who want something for nothing need not apply.

and how would we apply? =]

[JRMalick]

Liz,

Your conditions for letting me get fish from you sound fine. I don't blame you for wanting them to go to a good home. I look forward to the learning experience.

[LizStreithorst]

and how would we apply? =]

You would have to catch my interset from your posts, or perhaps talk Discus to me on the phone. Or perhaps have purchased from me in the past and let me know how you're proceeding with your breeding program.

This is so funny. People think that they might get something for free and they're all over it. They don't have a clue about how selective I am.

Francis, if you didn't get any females in the ones you bought from me I will make it rigjht. You should have gotten several females. I culled for quality over size. Except for the 8 I kept for myself your's were the best. I

[fishcrazed]

You would have to catch my interset from your posts, or perhaps talk Discus to me on the phone. Or perhaps have purchased from me in the past and let me know how you're proceeding with your breeding program.

This is so funny. People think that they might get something for free and they're all over it. They don't have a clue about how selective I am.

Francis, if you didn't get any females in the ones you bought from me I will make it rigjht. You should have gotten several females. I culled for quality over size. Except for the 8 I kept for myself your's were the best. I

not trying to recieve anythin for free. if you read your pm im more interested in buying from you over recieving it for free

[Bill63SG]

2 hours is nothin lol i once drove 6 hrs and yet still didnt mind a good breeder in my area lol 2 hours of driving is alot less costly than shipping cost lol2 hrs is nothing.I consistantly drove 2 hrs to a "local" breeder to buy cbw's and just just b.s. with him.He wasn't working,and I was in winter lay-off.I joked I would apprentice with him from Dec. to March just to learn his water change regime.Talking about William Palumbo Liz,if you know him,good or bad.I learned so much I still feel I should pay him.Haven't forgotten about our talk,Liz.Will p.m. you with details this weekend.

[JRMalick]

Of course, the "free" part interested me. However, the most interesting part to me was having someone fairly close to me to be able to learn more about discus from. I only know one person fairly close to me who really knows discus. Even if you don't deem me "worthy" of your fish, I am hoping to expand my knowledge. If I don't get discus from you (purchased or free), my two front running choices currently are the local person who breeds and also brings in discus from Hans, or just buying directly from Hans and paying the $75 shipping cost. So, it's not all about the "free" for me, while I openly admit that saving some money sounds good.

And now that I have 5 posts, I believe that I can now PM you so that we can discuss this further.

[ericatdallas]

Having seen pictures of Liz's discus, I would pay for them just to make sure I had some. The only thing that stopped me (when Liz was selling them a while back) was I -thought- my wife would have killed me.. the funny thing was, after we left Mike Beal's place, she couldn't stop talking about Blue Diamonds and how she really wanted fish that looked like that. She made me promise to get some when we moved to Florida LOL.

[ericatdallas]

hehe, free stuff is a funny thing. I always wonder why grown adults freak out about free food (i.e. donuts, leftover pizza, etc) at work. Some of these people make 6-figure salaries but will drop everything and wait in line to get a free slice of pizza. Boggles my mind.

Something about the word free just makes people giddy. It's like the "free" toy in a cereal box.

Anyway, seriously, Liz's discus are worth paying for. Not sure if she's still selling any though.

Also, you can get cheap discus all the time. It's how much work you want to put into it. I've seen some hobbyist get rid of some quality discus for whatever reason. You just have to be patient and diligent.

I sold some of my discus for dirty cheap (healthy big discus for $15) b/c I needed to free some room up. People have different motivations. Sometimes it's time constraints. Sometimes it's life constraints.

[seanyuki]

Just joking Liz.....as being off Friday and more time in the fishroom and ready to receive more APs in the afternoon from New Jersey.


You would have to catch my interset from your posts, or perhaps talk Discus to me on the phone. Or perhaps have purchased from me in the past and let me know how you're proceeding with your breeding program.

This is so funny. People think that they might get something for free and they're all over it. They don't have a clue about how selective I am.

Francis, if you didn't get any females in the ones you bought from me I will make it rigjht. You should have gotten several females. I culled for quality over size. Except for the 8 I kept for myself your's were the best. I

[TNT77]

Yeah right, but, "You can get it free, if..." it's not the most ethical thing in the world either.
It's completely ethical what Liz said. It is her fish. It her perogitive to give them for free to anyone she deems worthy. What would be unethical if she said free then charged or mislead someone in any way. Liz was very upfront on her conditions. She was in no way misleading.

[chrisb01]

It's completely ethical what Liz said. It is her fish. It her perogitive to give them for free to anyone she deems worthy. What would be unethical if she said free then charged or mislead someone in any way. Liz was very upfront on her conditions. She was in no way misleading.

You know, after reading the thread a couple times over, I do believe that the offer was misleading. It was not an honest offer to help a fellow hobbyist.

I sell fish, and I believe that anyone who spends money for fish, whether a Discus, Guppy, Cory or BN Pleco, is not just going to go home and throw it in a mud hole.


Problem is, I need to believe that the person who wants my fish is worthy of them.

Sounds childish, and borders on arrogance.

[TNT77]

Sounds childish, and borders on arrogance.
No she just doesn't want her hard work to be just thrown away. I come from performance horses and I see exactly where she is coming from. Its hard work to raise a perfect or d*** close specimen (be it fish, horse, dog, cat, or watever you raise). I have refused to sell horses to people because I did not see them capable or willing to take care of them. I have even refused to sell horses to people because I knew the horse would not be able to live up to their true potential in their care. Is that arrogant no. I am the least arrogant person you will ever meet. lol Is it childish I don't believe so cause I am looking out for something I love. Not that I can't be childish now and then. :p
If you are in it just to make a living yes you will sell to anyone who is willing to pay. Doesn't make you a bad person; especially if you try to sell the best quality you can. If you are in it for the experience or just for the chance to eventually produce that perfect animal you can be picky on who you sell to. She puts alot of effort into her discus. She takes pride in it as anyone who raises quality discus do. Childish no-a child would look at the effort it takes to raise something like that and only see how much they can get out of it. Arrogance no- do not confuse pride with arrogance. If you would look at more than just one post nit picking at it you would see how much she and everyone else who helps on this forum tries to do for people. They do not keep this forum to feed their self images they do it to help people better understand a wonderful creature.

[ericatdallas]

I can kind of see what Chris is saying... I'm not sure ethics is the appropriate word to use though. At least, not based on how I define the word.

It -could- be the right word if: Liz makes the offer with no intention of honoring it. Since no one knows what is in her mind, except her, I would imagine we have to give her the benefit of the doubt.

I do think you should make an offer, but there should be an objective criteria/metric to meet. But not doing so isn't really an ethical issue. I mean, I could say, "Hey, if you make a scientific discovery so profound I will give you an award and a lot of money..."

So is the nobel prize unethical? We know they mean it, because the award the prize every year...

[Wes]

It's completely ethical what Liz said. It is her fish. It her perogitive to give them for free to anyone she deems worthy. .

[judy]

I know exactly how Liz feels and I agree with her position completely. I don't breed much, but when I do, I put a lot of effort into the babies and when I sell them, the potential buyers get interrogated about every detail of their tanks-- and some get scared off when I tell them what's expected of a discus tank (WCs, feeding, etc)... which is fine with me. I want the fish I put so much work into to go to homes where they will be cared for properly. Ethical, schmethical-- it;s about making sure the fish are properly tended, not bought by some idiot who thinks twice a year is plenty for water changes.

[MightyEvil]

.

LOL!

[fishcrazed]

i feel that if shes is giving them away she should give it to someone who can take care of it as well as she can.

you wouldnt give your first baby to a teenager with no parental experience would you?

when i have to give up a fish i ask the people who want them questions that only hobbiest would know

[chrisb01]

Well, I used to breed and sell Angelfish commercially. Now I breed and sell BN Plecos, albino and black, Aspidoras Albaters, a close cousin of the Cory and very rare fish. I have bought and sold from ebay and aquabid.

When I put an auction on AquaBid, I don't expect every bidder to call me so I can interrogate them. They simply pay for the fish, I ship them. And I advise the buyers that they can always contact me concerning the care and keeping of the fish. All my fish are good quality, I cull till I drop.

I also belong to several other forums, where some people go and ask about a certain fish. I have given fish away and even covered the shipping charges for a lot of them, and I'm talking in the hundreds. I have also received fish from other people who just send them to me, sure they know me, but they don't know what I'm going to do with the fish.


...not bought by some idiot who thinks twice a year is plenty for water changes.

Those people buy fish from the LFS, they don't spend real money on quality fish and shipping charges. People who want quality fish are not going to go home and throw them in a mud puddle.

When I post an auction selling Aspidoras Albaters on AB and some one is willing to pay me $35.00 + shipping for six of them, I don't think they are going to put them in the toilet bowl. I know that if they are willing to pay that much money, they know what they are doing, or they will asked me about the care and keeping of the fish in question.

Tigga asked where she can buy inexpensive Discus, and someone made an offer, and then put very strict conditions on the offer.

"I need to believe that the person who wants my fish is worthy of them. This means me meeting you in person at my place" For coffee?

"or at NADA" If you have fish to show at NADA you wouldn't have been posting the question that Tigga did.

"or having good conversation with you via email or phone and deciding about you for myself." Really? You have that much time in your hands?

"Those who want something for nothing need not apply." That's exactly what you offered. And let me remind all that the question was to 'buy' inexpensive fish.

"Or perhaps have purchased from me in the past and let me know how you're proceeding with your breeding program." Again, why ask the original question if this was the case.

"This is so funny. People think that they might get something for free and they're all over it. They don't have a clue about how selective I am." Childish and arrogant, we are all adults here.

I have been through the forum and read Liz's other posts on other threads, I know her character, but on this one she came across as someone who would dangle a lollipop in front of a child and then pull it away and put preconditions. That is 'not' ethical.

You don't believe me? Print the whole thread and take it to an attorney.

[JustinKScott]

Personally, I don't like the name calling on this thread.

Its pretty simple cut and dry. Liz has a price that extends past cash. She has the requirement of quality buyer.

I applaud her. I think we all should do the same.

Whatever we sell we have the responsibility to the living creature who now will live or die according to the condition in which it must now live.

You talk about ethics?
Here's a question for you: would you sell your 5yr old trusting faithful dog to someone who will just simply use her for a single dog fight? Or a single hunting season, then leave her in the woods because it is too expensive to keep her through the off season?

If you dare to answer yes, then please leave the conversation and hobby now as you disgust me.

It is obvious to me that Liz answers the question "No". In exchange for her fish she wants knowledge NOT CASH. She wants to know her beloved fish will live well.

Further more, don't you try to threaten lawyers into this conversation. This is a gift not a sale. "ready, willing and able" buyer clauses do not apply here. She is allowed to choose who and why she gifts. Period.

Finally @ Liz. If this guy thinks you are immoral, I say stand up an be proud of it. I would be.


Jks
---------
60g waterfall tank
80g high tech planted (2.7w/g t5ho, pressured co2, EI ferts)
55g bare-bottom Discus growth tank w/ 7 juvies
55G bare-bottom tank w/ 7" adult Discus
Angelfish breeder

[chrisb01]

Personally, I don't like the name calling on this thread.

Me either, and I didn't.


Its pretty simple cut and dry. Liz has a price that extends past cash. She has the requirement of quality buyer.

I applaud her. I think we all should do the same.

Agree.


Whatever we sell we have the responsibility to the living creature who now will live or die according to the condition in which it must now live.

But we have no control over it.



You talk about ethics?
Here's a question for you: would you sell your 5yr old trusting faithful dog to someone who will just simply use her for a single dog fight? Or a single hunting season, then leave her in the woods because it is too expensive to keep her through the off season?

If you dare to answer yes, then please leave the conversation and hobby now as you disgust me.

It is obvious to me that Liz answers the question "No". In exchange for her fish she wants knowledge NOT CASH. She wants to know her beloved fish will live well.

I would also say no. I have three dogs and they are not for sale, but if they were, no one in the world has the money that they are worth. I will not leave this hobby, because I love this hobby and I'm zealous and jealous of it just as bad as you and Liz.



Further more, don't you try to threaten lawyers into this conversation.

I didn't, that would be ridiculous.


This is a gift not a sale. "ready, willing and able" buyer clauses do not apply here. She is allowed to choose who and why she gifts. Period.

My point exactly, she offered the 'gift' and then asked for the part that extends past cash. Mind you, Tigga did not asked for a gift, it was offered.



Finally @ Liz. If this guy thinks you are immoral, I say stand up an be proud of it. I would be.

I never said, nor do I think Liz is immoral. I would never disrespect her or anybody here like that. Liz 'does' have a lot to be proud of. I suggest you go back and read my last post again. I did mentioned that I have read other posts by Liz in other threads. She is a very experienced and accomplished Discus breeder, an asset to not only SD, but to the aquarium community in general.

Perhaps, it was the way the whole thing came across. Maybe Liz should have PM Tigga and made the offer by PM, rather than in the open forum, prompting all who follow the offer to inquire. One thing I do agree with Liz about, we as human beings, like free things. That's why banks chain down their pens and let you walk out with ten thousand dollars. They know you'll pay back the money, but they'll never see the pen again if they let you take it.

[fishcrazed]

i think we should bring this thread back on track.... lol

[Skip]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!f

LIZ!! can we sit up an INTERVIEW at NADA!! i would like to be put on the GOOD LIST :)

[judy]

I also belong to several other forums, where some people go and ask about a certain fish. I have given fish away and even covered the shipping charges for a lot of them, and I'm talking in the hundreds. I have also received fish from other people who just send them to me, sure they know me, but they don't know what I'm going to do with the fish.



Those people buy fish from the LFS, they don't spend real money on quality fish and shipping charges. People who want quality fish are not going to go home and throw them in a mud puddle.

When I post an auction selling Aspidoras Albaters on AB and some one is willing to pay me $35.00 + shipping for six of them, I don't think they are going to put them in the toilet bowl. I know that if they are willing to pay that much money, they know what they are doing, or they will asked me about the care and keeping of the fish in question.



The thing is-- I occasionally have to sell a bunch of young angelfish as well and I honestly don't think about how the buyers will take care of them. They just so easy to raise and so much more-- well, lacking in personality somehow...
Discus are somehow different-- and I've found when I post on online auction or sale sites that I get a lot of people who I am sure just googled a picture of a discus and said to themselves "oooooo, purty, gotta get some". When I post them for sale on my local fish forum, I get responses from people who know what they're doing. So there are ignorant-- or uninformed-- folks out there who may or may not be interested enough or willing enough to create the right environment for thse fish.
Having said that: I agree with the posters who've said, you can get good discus, you can get cheap discus, but you can't expect to get good, cheap discus.

[TNT77]

you can get good discus, you can get cheap discus, but you can't expect to get good, cheap discus.
+1

[ericatdallas]

Further more, don't you try to threaten lawyers into this conversation. This is a gift not a sale. "ready, willing and able" buyer clauses do not apply here. She is allowed to choose who and why she gifts. Period.


I think the logical arguments are all over the place not because anyone is wrong, but we're using very subjective terms (cheap, good and quality) as metrics.

If we were to take one of the SD vendors invoice and purely accept it the price per discus based on that invoice, many (not all) of us here would agree that the cost of each discus is cheap and the quality is 'good'. However, when the vendor takes into account their risk, their maintenance, their time involved, they may consider the wholesale cost as expensive.

So to say you can't find good and cheap discus, is itself, a subjective assessment.

Further, I don't think Chris brought anything about lawyers. I think he was trying to add objectivity to some of the terms, so we're speaking the same language.

I already said, I don't think Chris is right to use the word "ethics" (IMO), but I also didn't see Chris calling Liz any names. I think, he was bothered that someone asked for advice, but was given an "offer" of discus with no measurable (and arbitrary) requirements. So it neither answered the question or gave the person anything tangible to know if they're eligible. Basically, by her successive statements, the "cost" of meeting those requirements may in some eyes be overly expensive. It's not unlike saying, "Kiss my butt and be my friends, and I'll give you discus."

Before you flame me, I don't think Liz is being childish or immoral or unethical. I do believe that Chris is bringing up some legitimate concerns but may be using words with a stronger negative connotations to some people here than he is used to.

I also believe, ALL of us, are making a mountain out of a mole hill.


i think we should bring this thread back on track.... lol

I think this thread is irrelevant, unless the OP tells us what he means by "Cheap" and "Great".

[JustinKScott]

I still think Liz should be picky in selling or gifting. Her path to the gift was a conversation. Pm her, get a phone # and chat with her.

I will remove my post if I can.


Jks
---------
60g waterfall tank
80g high tech planted (2.7w/g t5ho, pressured co2, EI ferts)
55g bare-bottom Discus growth tank w/ 7 juvies
55G bare-bottom tank w/ 7" adult Discus
Angelfish breeder

[Tigga]

When I meant cheap great discus, I just was looking for direction on anyone who does a good job and is a little cheaper than the competition or even just breeders thats fish are well worth the price they charge. I'm not looking for discus that are show quality at feeder goldfish prices, and I think anyone doing that is being unrealistic. Its just in an industry like this where you are throwing around so much money, its good to know if your dealer is good, price is fair, fish are good, etc..

@Liz
I think I'll have to turn down your offer, although I thank you for it.

[LizStreithorst]

I didn't intend to ignrore y'all. I was sick as a dog when the **** hit the fan yesterday and simply didn't have it in me to respond.

I'm better enough today to respond. In many ways, giving Discus for free is more satisfying than selling them. But after I posted, my in box when crazy with people wanting something for nothing. I didn't mean to mislead anyone, but I had to do something to put an end to that. All I have for sale right now are some fish that I have raised to 11 months. They are good. My breeding stock is of high quality and I'm ruthless when it comes to culling. They are close to breeding age.

Y'all should have seen what happen to my inbox when I said something about free fish! NO! I will not give them away to any Tom, Dick, or Harry. That is my choice. I've donated fish from this spawn to a NADA auction. I gave some to my carpenter who is a fish guy wanting to start back up. I have promised some to a dear friend who I've never met who was a moderator with me on another forum once upon a time and who has lost his job. Doing it made me feel good. If I give fish for free I want it to make me feel good!

Forgive me or not for having opened a can or worms. It was not my intention. I feel bad about the OPs thread having taken this turn. If anyone wants to discuss this further he should either start a new thread or do it via PM. Either is fine with me. That is all I feel that I need to apploize for.

Liz

[LizStreithorst]

I appologize to you, Tigga. Just out of curiosity, where DO you live.


When I meant cheap great discus, I just was looking for direction on anyone who does a good job and is a little cheaper than the competition or even just breeders thats fish are well worth the price they charge. I'm not looking for discus that are show quality at feeder goldfish prices, and I think anyone doing that is being unrealistic. Its just in an industry like this where you are throwing around so much money, its good to know if your dealer is good, price is fair, fish are good, etc..

@Liz
I think I'll have to turn down your offer, although I thank you for it.

[ericatdallas]

When I meant cheap great discus, I just was looking for direction on anyone who does a good job and is a little cheaper than the competition or even just breeders thats fish are well worth the price they charge. I'm not looking for discus that are show quality at feeder goldfish prices, and I think anyone doing that is being unrealistic. Its just in an industry like this where you are throwing around so much money, its good to know if your dealer is good, price is fair, fish are good, etc..

.

If that's what you're looking for, I would check local fish club and craigslist... nice thing about those is there are a lot of people (SD members included) that sell fry from quality stock.

If I ever get time and the RO filter (tap water TDS ~ 350ppm), I'll let my Albinos breed (one from Kenny via SD member and the other from Mike Beals). At that point, I'll have to sell them... I probably wouldn't sell them (and couldn't) at the same price as either Kenny or Mike Beals due to lack of reputation and track record, so it would be cheaper.

The quality would then be debateable, but I tend to follow all the recommended steps for fry/juvies regarding Discus.

There's a few members I remember RECENTLY that bought discus to get a pair and sold the rest at a signficant discount. A few members who unloaded their stock for various reasons (water shortage in Texas, family illness, etc).

That being said, like I said earlier, it is POSSIBLE to do it on the cheap. You have to be patient either in RAISING them yourself OR finding someone that at that moment is EAGER to sell. So if you factor diligence and time as a "cost", then Judy would be right, it's not likely to happen unless you get lucky. IF we're speaking purely financial, it's not as difficult.

[ericatdallas]

I wrote this a while back in making a decision about getting discus on the cheap... In that time, I've re-couperated my initial investment by selling excess, learned a LOT, and had a lot of fun...


DISCLAIMER: I'm a n00b, but this is how I came to my decision.

That actually depends on the strain and the cost of the juveniles. I managed to get 20 of mine at $6/fish (when other breeders sell them at $15-25/fish).

You also can't just buy 6 juvies (as I learned the first time) because they grow at different rates and you have a chance of getting really stunted fish. So if you want -good- fish you'll want to get maybe twice that.

Assuming 6 months to grow out... I spend about $12/month on BH plus flake food. So that's about $0.60/fish per month. Let's make it an even dollar for fish to account for water changes, etc. Also, other people might treat their fish with better food. So that's $6/fish to grow out completely.

R=survival rate of juveniles
Pa=price of adults
Pj=price of juveniles
Nj=number of juveniles needed to buy
Na=number of adults want
Nj=NA/R
Cost = cost factor to raise juvies to adults (you can put whatever your time is worth, here we're using $6)

Nj(Pj+Cost)=Na*Pa
Reduces to...
(1/R)(Pj+Cost)=Pa
So if we want 6 fish, we assume a 50% survival rate, at $6/fish to raise.

2(Pj+$6)=Pa
Pj=(Pa/2)-6

If you have $100 adult fish, that means Pj < $44 to be worth buying ($25 is in that range).

If you have $25 fry, then...
Pa=2Pj+12
Pa=2($25)+$12=$62
So if the adults are less than $62 then it's cheaper to buy the adults.

Of course this all depends on what food you feed, what your time is worth to you, and your assumed survival rate. Also the strain somewhat matters. I've found when shopping for juveniles, that's it not a proportional relationship between strains for cost as an adult (i.e. a $15 fish may have a return of 10x while a $40 may have one 9x).

Either way, I think you're better off at buying juveniles in most calculations.

For the record, I way under-estimated my survival rate (good) but also my cost in water (bad, but not significant). I would probably also take the last statement back if it's purely for a display tank. If all you want is fish for a display tank, then I would recommend buying them right out. If you enjoy the hobby at a technical level and for the challenge, I still recommend buying juvies. At the price I got them, failure is success if you learn something.

[Wes]

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!f

LIZ!! can we sit up an INTERVIEW at NADA!! i would like to be put on the GOOD LIST :) Skip, I checked he said you are still on the good list.