Why no carbon?

[TyGuy]

I've read in a few places not to use carbon in your filters, however I have not yet found or seen a reason as to why not. Carbon helps remove ammonia from the water and would only seem logical to have for such sensitive fish. Could someone please enlighten me?

[Darrell Ward]

It's not needed. With a good bio filter, and water changes, there should be no ammonia.

[Keith Perkins]

Yea, it's just a mess and waste of money almost all the time.

[grindman620]

From what I read is that (even though it has not been proven) it can possibly contribute to discus experiencing Hole in the Head as well...........I'm sure people will chime in here to help out

[YSS]

I have found that carbon does help with water clarity.

[chrisb01]

Let me give this a shot.

Carbon works well, as you say. However, there comes a time when carbon will become saturated and reject and even let loose some of the things it is used to eliminate.
In other words, it will not eliminate, it will hold on to ammonia, metals, meds. and so on. Then once it is replete with them, it will not only not hold them anymore, but let some of the ones it held before loose, making a bad situation worst.

Technology has come a long way through the years. Now we have liquid products that will do the same job as carbon, better and easier to use. Now you don't have to wash carbon and dismantle your filter to change it.

Some other posters might be able to give you a better answer. This is just my 2 cents.

[YSS]

I believe carbon leeching stuff back to water is a myth.

[Sean Buehrle]

I've used carbon quite a bit in the past, it will clean a cloudy tank up quick.
I think it would be a good idea to run something like a two little fishes carbon reactor in a planted tank just to help remove dissolves solids or organics.
I also read somewhere that it removes hormones in water. It removes a bunch of stuff.

[ericatdallas]

Aren't most of the RO filters people have using carbon as one of their stages?

I think carbon is just expensive. If someone will give me an unlimited amount of the stuff, I don't see a problem with it. Also, I like to keep it stocked in case I need to clear out medication.

Might also be something to consider if you go on vacation... hmm...

[jimg]

it won't release anything back, it don't remove ammonia etc etc many myths I think the main reason is because of the amount of wc's we do and the expense. I like to use it for establishing new tanks, good bio area

[Corona]

I've been using carbon for years with tropical fish. When I switched to Discus, I was still using carbon for several years and was sticking to my routine of changing out the carbon every month. I finally switched to Seachem's Purigen and will never go back to carbon. It works just as well in keeping the water clear; but, actually is more cost effective, as I haven't had to replace in almost a year. I just clean it about every 6 months as per Seachem's instructions.

[grindman620]

Has anyone else used Seachems Purigen before? Looks very interesting after reading about it on their website. You just add this stuff to a mesh like bag and add it to your filter? Am I correct on that? Anyone use this as a replacement for carbon?

[Bill63SG]

Look above you.

[Corona]

Has anyone else used Seachems Purigen before? Looks very interesting after reading about it on their website. You just add this stuff to a mesh like bag and add it to your filter? Am I correct on that? Anyone use this as a replacement for carbon?

I bought the pre-packaged ones. But, you can fill your own bag. I use 4 pre-packaged bags in my canister filter, which is more than necessary. However, I do that so that when I want to clean them, I take out 2 bags to clean and leave 2 in the canister. This way, my canister always runs with Purigen. It takes almost 2 days to clean; 24 hours soak of 50/50 bleach and water solution, 8 hours of Seachem Prime, 4 hours of Seachem Neutral Regulator and everything is pure again, or "pure re-gen (re-generated)."

[lane mechtel]

The reason I never used carbon is 12 years ago I used only RO water in my tank, and I would add RO Right into the RO water. My understanding was the carbon would remove some of those minerals I just added. Now I use only treated tap water, and with two 80% WC's per week my water stays clear with sponge and pre filters.

[PAR23]

Might also be something to consider if you go on vacation... hmm...

Funny you mention this.......Inaddition to withholding feeds and large WCs prior to going on vacation for more than 5 days......I also put in carbon. I'm not sure if it is actually beneficial but it's just something I do.

[grindman620]

Has anyone else used Seachems Purigen before? Looks very interesting after reading about it on their website. You just add this stuff to a mesh like bag and add it to your filter? Am I correct on that? Anyone use this as a replacement for carbon?


Look above you.


Exactly why I phrased it that way lol

[REC]

I've always run carbon. It gives you crystal clear water and an odorless tank. I just run emperor400 power filters with replaceable cartridges. Once a month I just toss out the old ones and replace with new. They are fairly cheap on bigals.

[PAR23]

I believe carbon leeching stuff back to water is a myth.


it won't release anything back, it don't remove ammonia etc etc many myths I think the main reason is because of the amount of wc's we do and the expense. I like to use it for establishing new tanks, good bio area

+1.....Releasing "toxins" back into the water is probably not true.

[ericatdallas]

Funny you mention this.......Inaddition to withholding feeds and large WCs prior to going on vacation for more than 5 days......I also put in carbon. I'm not sure if it is actually beneficial but it's just something I do.

Yeah, I'm actually kind of curious. I never really thought about it and I've never seen it recommended for people asking how to best go on vacation with fish.

So I'm curious if it does matter. Intuition tells me yes.

I guess some basic questions just need to be answered (some of them are still in debate):
1) How long does activated carbon last in the aquarium
2) Does letting it go past the effective duration hurt the tank, neither, help the tank.
3) Is there too much carbon?
4) Are there other things we could put that might be better (purigen, zeolite)?

If it's not doing harm, then it's got to be good right?

Now that my brain is thinking... what about time-released (auto-feeder) doses of Prime/Safe? Would that help or hurt?

[lipadj46]

Yeah, I'm actually kind of curious. I never really thought about it and I've never seen it recommended for people asking how to best go on vacation with fish.

So I'm curious if it does matter. Intuition tells me yes.

I guess some basic questions just need to be answered (some of them are still in debate):
1) How long does activated carbon last in the aquarium
2) Does letting it go past the effective duration hurt the tank, neither, help the tank.
3) Is there too much carbon?
4) Are there other things we could put that might be better (purigen, zeolite)?

If it's not doing harm, then it's got to be good right?

Now that my brain is thinking... what about time-released (auto-feeder) doses of Prime/Safe? Would that help or hurt?

1) depends how much you use, 2 weeks to a month
2) After it is shot it becomes biomedia, it won't leach
3) No but as mentioned above the new resins are better technology
4) purigen type resins

Time released prime for going on vacation or in general? I'm not sure the purpose if the tank is cycled you should not need prime. If you can get the technology set to time release dose prime you might as well go balls to the wall auto water change.

[Bud Smith]

I've always run carbon. It gives you crystal clear water and an odorless tank. I just run emperor400 power filters with replaceable cartridges. Once a month I just toss out the old ones and replace with new. They are fairly cheap on bigals.

+1 - I use it just to polish the water even though I do alot of water changes - I change my carbon every two weeks to a month and I have never had any toxins leached back into the tank - it is a matter of preference to use it or not
I knew a guy who used carbon in his 2 emperor 400 HOB's for a 150 gal. discus tank for years and would not go without it

[chrisb01]

I change my carbon every two weeks to a month and I have never had any toxins leached back into the tank - ...

If you change it at least monthly, you should be OK. You should always change or clean your filter media at least monthly. I do my filters once a week. Though I don't use carbon very often, maybe for one month once or twice a year, I always have some here at home.

It does help clear and keep the water clean. But I also think it is not absolutely necessary.

I always say that water changes and cleaning filters is half the fun of keeping fish.

[Discus-Hans]

COPY FROM FB. NOT MY WORDS...................................

Marc Weiss
I am writing this to several aquarium - keeping organizations and individuals who would have interest in the subject.

Over the years, myself and many other aquarists have associated the use of granular activated carbon (GAC) in their aquarium filter with the appearance of “head and lateral line erosion” (HLLE) in aquarium fishes.

It appears to me that there remains a significant number of people that are unaware of this.

Two recent studies have come to light that validate that the use of both coal and coconut based carbons can cause HLLE in marine fishes.

http://tinyurl.com/3rundhu
http://tinyurl.com/3bvxgtl
http://tinyurl.com/3owm55v

Both papers make reference to freshwater fishes, though the studies were clearly done with marine species. The authors indicate that the same situation can occur in freshwater but did not do a formal study.

I assure you that GAC kept in an aquarium filter recirculating water through it, will cause HLLE.

The late Dr. George Barlow had also noted the correlation in his cichlid lab and held it as causation when I spoke to him. I regret the written reference is not at hand. I do remember he published this in an article on another subject.

There is no proof that Hexamita is a cause of HLLE. Discus with “Hexamita” don’t usually exhibit HLLE. I’ve induced HLLE in flagellate - free fish by using copper, formalin, and even metronidazole.

Dr. John Gratzek was the first determine that there is no causation of HLLE as a result of Hexamita and put it in print. More recent fish disease texts, such as Noga’s “Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment”, indicate the same.

There may be other causes and/or combinations of them, that can cause HLLE without carbon filtration being used. For example, I’ve noted that discus kept in CO2 enriched planted aquariums show pore enlargement.

There’s much more to be investigated and written on the subject. I wanted to get this out as soon as I could without any more elaboration.

Marc

[ericatdallas]

Time released prime for going on vacation or in general? I'm not sure the purpose if the tank is cycled you should not need prime. If you can get the technology set to time release dose prime you might as well go balls to the wall auto water change.

Vacation... anything but WC or a very sophisticated/expensive filtration system (as used by major aquariums) is not a good long-term solution to controlling nitrogen.

Time release dosing while inferior to auto-WC, is less complicated (hence likely to be more reliable) and cheaper. I can set my $10 auto-feeder to release a specified amount of safe per day. if it fails, no safe... In the scenario described, it's not so much a long-term solution (heck, i didn't even claim it was a good idea, just an idea). But no, setting a timer on my auto-feeder is not at the same level as setting up a WC system.

Also, with auto-WC you have to worry about fail-safes and redundancies. Backup float valves, overflows to drain, etc. I'm not saying it's not possible or even desirable, but it's not an everyday solution I would pass to the people (we get one a week during the summer) asking about going on vacation.

[judy]

Fascinating thread. I don't use carbon because I fall into the camp that worries about HLLE. But I was never sure whether that was actually true; I just decided to be cautious. Now, after Hans' post above, I will shelve any thoughts of injecting CO2 into the potted-plant tank (Hans, does the same hold for Flourish Excel, do you know?).
What exactly DOES carbon do? People talk about clear water and clean water, but what is the process that takes place?

[gerrard00]

Fascinating thread. I don't use carbon because I fall into the camp that worries about HLLE. But I was never sure whether that was actually true; I just decided to be cautious. Now, after Hans' post above, I will shelve any thoughts of injecting CO2 into the potted-plant tank (Hans, does the same hold for Flourish Excel, do you know?).
What exactly DOES carbon do? People talk about clear water and clean water, but what is the process that takes place?

I don't think we're talking about C02 injection or C02 supplements, only granulated carbon used for filtration.

[ericatdallas]

I did see two 2011 jounal articles on this... one they fed "fine" particles in the feed and the other, they ran the aquariums with various AC filtration setups. I don't have access to these journals so I was unable to read the numbers, experimental setup, etc... their conclusion was there was correlation. Again, I don't know how strong, what the p-values are, and how rigorous their experiment was.

If anyone has access to these, I would be interested to hear what you think about it.

I haven't posted anything earlier because stating the above and throwing links leads to Aquarium "mythology". I'm very skeptical of results even when "scientists" run experiments and write it in a journal.

[YSS]

I'm very skeptical of results even when "scientists" run experiments and write it in a journal.

I haven't read the links included in Hans' post, but I will eventually. I am with you on this, Eric. I am also a skeptic unless the research was conducted to my satisfaction and the results were 100% backed by explanation and justification.

[Wes]

Has anyone else used Seachems Purigen before? Looks very interesting after reading about it on their website. You just add this stuff to a mesh like bag and add it to your filter? Am I correct on that? Anyone use this as a replacement for carbon? I put it in a community tank a couple months ago. A couple of my rainbows started twitching about an hour later. There was no reaction from the clown loaches,diamond tetras, cories or plecs. I pulled it out and it they stopped twitching. Haven't had time to try it again.

[ericatdallas]

I put it in a community tank a couple months ago. A couple of my rainbows started twitching about an hour later. There was no reaction from the clown loaches,diamond tetras, cories or plecs. I pulled it out and it they stopped twitching. Haven't had time to try it again.

I checked to see if I could access the articles from school/work... one article was no and the other one, based on our subscription, I can't access it for another 8 months :(

I did see two other articles in 2010 that are of interest... 1) Said that they found fish with HITH near bore-hole water... I couldn't access it either so that's all I know. 2) An article about how from a sample of GAC particles they found up to 10x more bacteria than on other particles. It wasn't about aquaculture, but water filtration and the conclusion was to keep an eye on it because it could be a way pathogens spread.

[lipadj46]

2) An article about how from a sample of GAC particles they found up to 10x more bacteria than on other particles.

that would be a good thing in a fish tank filter.

[ericatdallas]

that would be a good thing in a fish tank filter.

Possibly... You're assuming all bacteria are the beneficial nitrifying bacteria? That carbon is the most hospitable to the ones we want it to be? The article specifically singled out Coliform bacteria.

Again, not saying to draw broad conclusions, so the 10x bacteria -could- be for beneficial bacteria or it might be form stuff we pay $$$ to get rid of.

[discuspaul]

Has anyone else used Seachems Purigen before? Looks very interesting after reading about it on their website. You just add this stuff to a mesh like bag and add it to your filter? Am I correct on that? Anyone use this as a replacement for carbon?


I'm another one of those who used carbon on & off over the years, usually intermittently, and mainly for the purpose of water clarification & purification.

However, after running across Purigen about 3 years ago (actually I tried Boyd's Chemi-Pure at first) and then running it 24/7 for a while in my discus tank, I found that it did a far more effective job than carbon imo, and was much less expensive in the long run, due to the re-chargeable feature.

I wouldn't be without it today - I don't know how many other fish-keepers over the last couple of years that have asked me how I managed to keep my discus tank so crystal clear all of the time - and I've always said:
"Regular use of Purigen, along with filter floss, and pre-filter sponges on the filter intake tubes" - simple but very effective.

[discuspaul]

P.S.
I hasten to add that wcs don't hurt either - lol, but I don't do them daily, it's 2 X week, oh and, forgot to mention - my tank is fairly heavily planted.

[chrisb01]

A quote from 'ROCKY MOUNTAIN DISCUS FISH CARE'.

"We recommend discus hobbyists avoid using carbon or chemical media in the discus fish aquarium filter. Chemical filtration media will act as a magnet, holding harmful substances in the discus aquarium that would be eliminated by the water change. Carbon should only be used in the discus fish aquarium to remove medications or toxins for a short duration before discarding."

[ericatdallas]

I do WC daily at 80% now... so I don't even bother with anything but sponges at the moment. I do have two HOBs hanging on the tank but I currently don't use them. I currently am trying to think of a good way to get rid of my two canisters.

[chrisb01]

Thanks for bringing that up Eric. Not to get out of tract on this thread I will start a new one. I'll name it: 'Going Box'.

[judy]

I use a sponge filter, two AC 110s, and a small AC HOB for specialized media (phosphate reducers etc) on the 125 gallon (previously they were on the old 78 gallon) and it seems to work really really well for me. And those AC HOBs are just SOOOOO easy to deal with!!! Clean one one month just by lifting and squeezing out the foam blocks and using a small narrow hose to siphon any bottom crud, clean the other the next month, in between squeeze the sponge... nuthin' to it.
How big's your tank, Eric? With your fantastic WC regimen, maybe all you need is the HOBs.