My Wild need attention!

[gabloo]

Hi guys,

Here is what happened 2 days ago. I decided to remodel my wild tank so, i took out 4 of my wilds out and put them in 10g buckets with 300w heater in it(which was from the tank). It took me about 3 - 4 hours to finish up my tank. During that time i didn't notice, my heater was heating up the buckets instead of maintaining the temp. Once everything was setup, i filled up my tank and waited till my water temp was about 80 then put my wild back in. Till then i didn't notice about temp in the buckets. Once my discus were in the tank, they were floating around and looked like they were needed for air. I called Kenny and he explained what was going and what i should be expecting next morning even though he has swore throat. Out of all 4, 2 were doing really bad, clamped fins and dark body. Lucky, the next morning, non of my discus died, 3 of them were almost back to their shape but one wasn't doing so well. When i checked him out today, i saw that i had done a lot of damage to him. Its almost looks like, he didn't just got temp shock, i might have burned his skin out :(. I am not really sure what to do. I did water change today, not really sure i should keep up with water change.

Till today, they are not eating well, 3 of them are swimming around like used to expect that guy.

Notice : Check his body and edge of his side fins. There is red color at the edge.

Let me know what u guys think and what i should do.

http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7932-1.jpg
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7942.jpg
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7941.jpg
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7936.jpg
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7935.jpg
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7934.jpg
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7932.jpg
http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7929.jpg

[ShinShin]

Here's what I would do. Take a 5 gal. bucket and add 10tbs (not tsp) to the water. Add an airstone. Put the fish into the bucket for 20 minutes. In the meantime, add malachite/green and neomycine sulfate to the tank. Treat tank according to package recommendations. You may dip the discus daily in a salt bath as well.

Mat

[chrisb01]

I think you should keep up the water changes, due to the fact that if the burns turn into fin rot, the others might suffer from that too.

1. I would go to a vitamin store and get pure aloe vera, this will sooth the skin, you add 10 mls per ten gals.
2. You can also give him a Hydrogen Peroxide bath, 1 part HP and two parts aquarium water, for two to three minutes.
3. You can net the fish out and apply pure HP with a cotton ball on the affected areas, and gently put him back in the tank. Do not let the HP get in the gills.
4. You can treat him with a combination of Maracin II and Maracin III.

These three suggestions are things I have done with Angelfish, with good results. Since I just started with Discus, I have not had a chance to do it with them, and I hope I never will. I don't know if anyone here have don't any of this with Discus. But lets see what the experts say.

[jimg]

I would add 1 tlbs salt per 20 and clean water. looks like ammonia/ph burn, but I never saw discus burn from hot water. what was the temp of the water in the buckets?

[ShinShin]

How did the fish receive ammonia burns? The fish wasn't burned by hot water. It was shocked by being placed in colder water(relatively speaking here). This, in and of itself ,will not kill the discus. Secondary infections from oppurtunistic pathogens is the threat now. The purpose of the the salt dip is to kill, by osmotic pressure, any ectoparasites that may be on the discus. 1 tbs
/20gal is not that strong of a solution to be very effective. The salt dip will also weaken any parasites that manage to survive making them more susceptable to further treatments. The formalin/malachite green will kill most protozans present and the neomyacin sulfate will kill most bacteria present.

Changing water is just a given if you're a discus person.

Mat

[jimg]

never saw a discus that bad from temp change. I have put discus in ice water to euthanize them and they still never looked anything like that. I didn't said it was ammonia burn, i said it looks like ammonia or ph burn. a mild salt solution will help it's slime coat without irritating the discus having in mind what the gills must be like if the skin looks like it does.
imo neomycin may be a good idea though

[ShinShin]

Hey Jim,

Your iced discus did not live to be attacked by any pathogens.

Mat

[jimg]

so your saying the shedding slime and damage to tail fin is from pathogens? op says it happened as soon as they went into the tank.

[jimg]

My mistake it was the next day, I thought I read it happened as soon as he put them back

[BoiseDiscusGuy]

I agree with Mat. I would try the daily salt bath. Dont be alarmed if the fish lays on its side when in the bath, it will snap out of it when back in your tank.

[ShinShin]

A discus' first response to ectoparasites or other external irritant (like pH or enviromental force) is increased slime production. It's their natural response.

[chrisb01]

Dont be alarmed if the fish lays on its side when in the bath, it will snap out of it when back in your tank.

Right, it must be somewhat uncomfortable for him, but it is for his good in the end. I'm hoping this fish makes it.
I'm very interested in the outcome.

Lets try to keep this thread going until the Discus gets better. I'm learning a lot. I'm sorry it's under these circumstances.

[gabloo]

This is getting worst guys, i havn't done salt dipping or any medication yet. I just did big water change 70 % + and my guy is floating around (side way), he is not even swimming anymore but still breathing. At first only half of his body is seem to burned but i saw a few more clean spot on his body. Since he is stressed, his body is kind of dark but there are a few spots that isn't dark. Not really sure what to do at this moment.

[jimg]

sorry for the confusion!
I agree with the salt dip. i do 3% 7.5 tbls per gallon up to 10 mins or until it rolls over, which in this case would be hard to tell! sometimes when their dying they have light and dark patches so do it asap. good luck

[ShinShin]

You need to act. Water changes aren't a cure all. You need to kill something before something kills your fish.

Mat

[gabloo]

How would i know if my fish rolls over or not? Since he just floating.

[BoiseDiscusGuy]

That does make it tricky, but I would assume it's fate if no action is taken soon. Just do a 10 min. dip and return it to the main tank and see how that goes. I recommend using aquarium salt or non iodized salt for dips.

[jimg]

I would do for 5 mins you can also watch gills they may pump very fast for awhile then slow, If I remember right take it out if gills pump less than 20-30 pumps per minute

[nc0gnet0]

I think at that weakend state, a salt dip might do him in. I would recomend placing in a QT tank (5 gallon bucket if neccesary) and treating with meth blue and air. See if you can get him in a little better shape before the salt dip.

Rick

[gabloo]

I don't have any medication in hand expect for furan 2. Did salt dipping for 10 min and he is back into the tank. He is still floating. He might not make it till tomorrow. I want to do what i can to bring him back. What should i do next? He is just floating and breathing not moving any of his fins.

[gabloo]

Update - he is not longer floating( not sure its a good sign or not). He is at the button of the tank, facing downward tho. Still breathing and not movement.

[jimg]

I don't have any medication in hand expect for furan 2. Did salt dipping for 10 min and he is back into the tank. He is still floating. He might not make it till tomorrow. I want to do what i can to bring him back. What should i do next? He is just floating and breathing not moving any of his fins.
I doubt it will make it but if it does furan 2 is very good with a salt dip each day for a few days (meaning treat in qt tank with furan then when you redose next day take it out and give it 3% salt dip then back into furan)

just curious what was the temp of the bucket water?

[gabloo]

Jimg - no idea. When i was pouring water out of the bucket, it was pretty worm. My guess is, he probably got push around and burn him self.

[gabloo]

update - he is laying on the button of the tank now...

[jimg]

sucks when things like that happen. i have unplugged heaters then forgot and the next day kick myself for not thinking.
too bad they are nice wilds you have too.

[BoiseDiscusGuy]

Even if you do everything you can, sometimes they are just too far gone. Does suck for sure...

[gabloo]

What did i do wrong? what really happened?

[chrisb01]

Don't blame yourself, as Pat would say, $hit happens.
You did the salt dip, now lets wait and see. As someone else mentioned, he is too weak to do anything else right now.
I'm hoping he is still with us in the morning, then you can probably go one more step.

[BoiseDiscusGuy]

I dont think you did anything wrong. You noticed there was a problem, and you asked for advice. Thats what I would have done too...but IMO treatment should have been done a bit sooner. Once the fish starts floating around, it certainly a dire situation which most of the time doesnt end well. It's happened to all of us at some point but we learn from it and hopefully avoid that situation in the future.

[ShinShin]

The salt dip would have no dire effects on the discus. Nor will it cure it in and of itself. Best results are achieved when the discus is placed directly the medicated tank immediately after the salt dip, not treat the tank the next day or even in an hour. This is important.

[nc0gnet0]

The salt dip would have no dire effects on the discus.

I am going to have to disagree in this particular case. I would never perform a salt dip on a fish that was already floating. I am leaning more towards gill damage and extreme stress caused by the water and lack of 02 in the water during the bucket containment. Secondary infections were certainly a concern, but, not so sure they were the root cause. It would sure be nice to know the temperature of the water the fish was subjected too. If it was extreme, internal damage might have been done and there very well could have been nothing that could saved the fish.

[BoiseDiscusGuy]

I think you are absolutely right. If there was internal damage caused by the extreme temp or whatever, then there probably wasnt much that would help the fish, but with the limited amount of info to work with and visually from the pics, it is a very difficult situation to diagnose. Since the fish had survived for what would be going on 3 days now, I too was leaning toward secondary infection and treatment. I wish it could have been addressed sooner...

[ShinShin]

There's doubt in my mind that such an extreme temperature could have occured in such a short time to cook the discus. There have been reports of tank temps approaching 100F for several days with no damage from a guy in the Outback of Australia when his fishroom would be over a 100F for days. I have treated for Hex at 96F with no damage. The amount of salt I suggested would not roll a discus over, or at least not in my dip bucket. Salt actually eases respiration and associated stress.

[nc0gnet0]

Salt may ease stress by reducing osmoregulation, but it does not ease respiration. This is counter-intuitive as salt water carries less oxygen then fresh water. I am not against salt dips as they are much better IMO then salt in the tank, it's just I think this fish was in dire straits, already floating at the surface.

[gabloo]

Update guys - He is still with us. If he is willing to fight, i will do whatever i can to bring him bak. What will be my next step? I m setting up 7.5 g tank right now, i know is pretty small but that what i got and since he is not moving around that should do ok till he get better.

ShinShin- salt didn't roll him over, he was floating since he was in main tank. But now he is not longer floating, laying on the button now.

I m not really sure what really happened after moving them around. They weren't sick nor doing anything unusual while they were in main tank. I don't really want what caused all of this. I will post pics as soon as my qt tank heat up and ready for him.

[jimg]

How much salt did you end up using in the dip? needs to be at least 2-3% salt
I was thinking about this last night and do not believe by looking at the pics that it was any pathogens or bacterial that made that fish look like that over night, few days yes over night ? I think it was either the heat or other water parameters that burnt the fish.
I would do 1 more salt dip then just go back to what I originally thought with 1 tbls per 20 and keep water clean. jmo
meth b not a bad idea either

[gabloo]

Photo uploaded. If you need pics of the other side let me know too.

http://i1098.photobucket.com/albums/g380/gabloo/Accident%20wild/_MG_7956.jpg

[jimg]

that fish looks dead to me are the gills still moving?

[gabloo]

Yes, He is still breathing. He tried to move sometime.

[gabloo]

He passed away a few mins ago while i was doing pp treatment on him.

I think what really happened was, while he was shocked from temp changes or enviroment, i did big water change. Since his immue system was really weak, he couldn't handle more stress that was from water change.

If i could start all over again, i will leave him in the tank without water change with very light feed for couple days until he body get into better shape from the first day.

[nc0gnet0]

He passed away a few mins ago while i was doing pp treatment on him

argh........... why?

[jimg]

i think it was dead yesterday, just hung on. pp was a bad move too.

[nc0gnet0]

I agree, by the looks of the last picture, he had already started to discolor. There was virtualy no hope, I would have wagered good money (hell I would have even givn odds) that in the condition in the last picture, no way was he going to survive a PP treatment.

Too many tiimes, when faced with a sick fish, the owner feels the neccesity to do something, anything........but this often becomes the downfall of the fish. If you don't know what you are treating for, you should'nt be treating IME.

[chrisb01]

Sorry buddy, my condolences.

[ShinShin]

ncOgnetO,

There was a whole article about salt written by a state fish biologist on studies that they did regarding salt treatments on bluegills. One of the findings was that the bluegills respiration was eased and stress reduced during transportation to lakes that were to be stocked, increasing the survival rate on the trip to their destinations. Now, until I see scientific data stating otherwise, I stand by my statement, rather the fish biologist's findings. The PP treatment didn't kill the discus either. Without knowing the temp in the bucket, no one will ever know what killed it. To treat a discus to prevent oppurtunistic pathogens from overtaking a damaged discus is far smarter than leaving it alone. Granted, many people subject their discus to all sorts of "cures" that do more harm than good, but a salt dip and immediately placing the discus in a tank with MG/F and an antibiotic like neomyacin sulfate never killed a discus. Bet on that. I have saved discus that most people here would have lost with immediate action. Why give ectoparasites that kill a day or 2 headstart?

Mat

[Len]

Just wondering what temps it would take to have caused the initial damage? He did say that the water seemed quite warm, so is it a leap to suppose that the temp would have to have been well into the 100F + range? I would guess that to be true if a human who's normal temp is just shy of 100F feels it to be quite warm.

[nc0gnet0]

Mat,

I really would like to look at that study, do you have a link? Keep in mind the bluegill is a cold water species where the additon of salt to the water has a much less profound effect on the dissolved oxygen content. Now, you can indeed reduce a fishes respiration by relieving stress, but that does not equate to the same thing as salt in the water making it easier for them to breath. Two completely different scenarios.

I suspected gill damage do to prolonged exposure to hypoxic conditions. MB greatly increases the fish's gills to absorb oxygen, and helps to reverse ammonia poisoning. It too, would help to reduce stress by increasing the ability for the fish to take in oxygen while also keeping bacteria levels low to help stave off secondary bacterial infections. It's not a cure by any means, but many times buys the fish some additional time to recover on its own.

Chances are nothing could have been done, as internal organ damage is not reversable.

Rick

[ShinShin]

I came across it several years back when everybody and their mother was suggesting salt as a cure all on the forum. I completely dwith its usage other than a dip. I found the article on the internet somewhere, read it and lightened my stance against it a little bit. Not much though. Don't forget that bluegills live in waters that reach the 80+F and when they are being transported, they are not being transported in the dead of winter. It was easy to come to a conclusion on salt and discus from the article. If you're up for a search, have at it. I don't care to at this point.

Mat

[nc0gnet0]

Matt,

We agree more than you think. I too am against using salt for anything other than a dip. As a dip it has its uses. When used as a continual bath it is little more than an old wives tale that just won't die IMO. Furthermore, it's continued overuse as a bath has consequences.

I am still not convinced that it helps with respiration however. Adding salt to the water and observing the fish's respiration slow does not neccesarily mean the salt made it easier for the fish to breath, it means it had a claming effect on the fish and as a result the fish's respiration slowed. This is all fine and good as long as there was nothing wrong with the fish's breathing mechanism in the first place.

For instance, you have somebody that is stressed out and hyperventilating, so you hand them a paper bag to breath in. This calms then down and their breathing returns to normal.

But do you want to give somebody with a punctured lung that same paper bag to breath in, or in this case would an oxygen mask be more appropriate?

At any rate, different diagnosis = different treatment.

Rick