Need Advice- Sick Discus

[missdiscus]

Hello-

I am new to the Discus world and even upon researching this breed, had no idea how complicated and picky they are. They are absolutely stunning fish and I would love to have them but not sure if I am cut out for it.

My current situation:

I have a 45 gallon with a 4-5 inch blue diamond and a 3-4 inch red dragon. I recently had two other discus die that were smaller, one came in the mail (big mistake) and the other from LFS. Both of them stopped eating one day and never ate again and wasted away.

I have been having MAJOR ISSUES with my PH. My PH is always high. I have done substrate changes thinking it was that...twice. Now I have a bare bottom. I took out media from my filter thinking that was causing it. Now I only have biowheels in my fluval and in my over the tank filter I have a sponge and a water softener pillow that I have to recharge every two days. I have a piece of driftwood, several potted plants, and a fake piece of wood for them to hide in...thats it. I have an air bubble thing and two heaters.

My temp is approx 86-89, I have been upping it since they have been sick....this is what I am reading online but not sure if its right.

My water from the tap is hard and the softener pillow does not seem to help that much. I was using Mardel Live PH to monitor my ph, only to find out it was totally off and my PH was 7.6 when I thought it was 6.5. I know it is horrible! I took some water to Petsmart and found out. I have put Seachem Acid Buffer in over the last 2 days and my PH is now 7.0-7.2. It keeps trying to go back up so I have to keep adding this. I am now using the PH dropper test kit twice a day. I also did a water exchange..took out like 3 gallons or so and put 2 gallons of CaribSea Ready-Water.

Some other info as of yesterday:

Ammonia- .25-.5 (put ammo-lock in tonight)
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-40
Alkalinity= 20 ( I know this is a problem don't know how to fix it)
Hardness-150
Chlorine-0

What the fish doing- So the red dragon has been thriving..beautiful eating etc since I got him about a month ago. About a week ago I noticed the Blue diamond losing its color and getting dark (I have had him about 2 weeks) Then I noticed it had a weird white kind of patchy look to it, and depending on the angle it would show up more or less. He got kind of cloudy looking and then I saw little white puffs or patches on tip of tail and in random spots..they seemed to come and go. I purchased Pimafix and Melafix per the LFS recmmendations and have used it for two days. His color slightly better but he still doesn't look right. He is eating but much less than normal. He prefers beefheart and the red dragon prefers blood worms (both frozen)
Tonight for the first time I noticed both fish kind of acting dopey and lightly bumping into the glass and objects. This is the first I have seen of this. Nervous to say the least.....I don't know what I need to do now!

I have spent so much money and time on these fish and I want them to live. I realize my water conditions are off and I need advice on how to correct this. I also need advice on what medication I should be using to help them. A friend is suggesting I use fungus eliminator and prazipro.

Any help appreciated!!!!!:angry:

[Chicago Discus]

Can you take a picture and show us. Ok IMO I would not worry to much about your PH at this point. 1st start by doing a 50% water change with aged tap water (get a rubber garbage can from your hardware store put a air stone and heater and let go over night) and some water conditioner like prime or something like that. Take out that the water softener pillow and keep it simple don't add all that crazy stuff like acid to change your PH ammonia lock etc. etc.... IMO with discus you need to keep it simple. make sure your doing water changes at least three times a week. you can add some salt at this point I can't recommend medication because I'm not sure without seeing a picture whats going on..............Josie

[TNT77]

Don't fiddle with the PH. Too much PH ups and downs will stress the fish out more than high PH. Stay consistant. You have ammonia in your tank. How old is the tank? What is your water change regimine? Melafix and Pimafix I have never had any luck with except killing off the bio. Pimafix at high dosages will sedate a fish. 3 gallons is not enough. Up the water changes to at least 50%.

[missdiscus]

Okay so do you think I should put my carbon filters back in to absorb some of the Melafix and Pimafix??? I am taking photos...its hard to get a good shot. Some of the pictures he looks really dark. I will put a picture of when I first got him so you guys can see the change. The red dragon is a beauty and up until tonight looked great. Tonight I see one tiny white patch on him, can't get a photo of it.
p.s. Trying to figure out how to upload a photo on here

[Chicago Discus]

I don't use carbon just do a 50% water change w/some prime and keep doing water changes. IMO opinion you need to get your water right before you start adding medication.

[missdiscus]

Trying to upload but my KB too big and it's getting too late for me to figure out...I can email pics if you want to give me your email....I will figure out how to resize them tomorrow

[TNT77]

Trying to upload but my KB too big and it's getting too late for me to figure out...I can email pics if you want to give me your email....I will figure out how to resize them tomorrow
Bump your posts up to 10; then put the photos in a photobucket account and paste the html link to the forum post.

[TURQ64]

WHoa, Nelly!...Put all the extras in a bag, and start with just water..7.6 is an ok number..No buffers, additives, etc..Tap water, with Prime or Safe (dechlorinators), 82-84 degrees, with large water changes daily until the tank cycles properly....The fish will improve somewhat, then we can evaluate it again....Mail order is a great way to obtain fish, you just need to start with a good distributor...Gary

[Skip]

WHoa, Nelly!...Put all the extras in a bag, and start with just water..7.6 is an ok number..No buffers, additives, etc..Tap water, with Prime or Safe (dechlorinators), 82-84 degrees, with large water changes daily until the tank cycles properly....The fish will improve somewhat, then we can evaluate it again....Mail order is a great way to obtain fish, you just need to start with a good distributor...Gary

+1 for my Captain Turq!!

also remember.. discus are schooling fish.. less then 6.. they are "happy".. it will take time for the fish to recover from their "condition".. you can not EXPECT to put in 8 drops in the water and the fish just MAGICAL SPRING back to life 100%..
it may take over a week, so be patient..

just use clean water and stop adding this other junk..

good luck :)

[missdiscus]

Okay so woke up this am,,,they are swimming around better not bumping into things. Red dragon looks good...blue diamond eh. He is still darker...whith a white patch on top fin...back tail..fins get clamped at times,,,occasional darting...some balance issues floating swaying to one side or the other.....:(

Checked the PH with API Test Kit and got 6.8. I have a bucket of water sitting out but still have to heat it up before I put it in. How do you guys feel about if I use my 25 ft Aqeuon Water Changer that hooks up to my faucet....it easily vacums out water and then I can fill it right back with the right temperture. As I fill I put the water conditioner in. Probably not a good idea right because the conditioner has not had time to work?>???? Thoughts??

Please tell me if I should keep or put away these products:

Tetra Easy Balance Plus
Extr Large Water Softener Pillow
API
API PH down
Seachem Acid Buffer and Alkaline Buffer
API AmmoLock
API Stess Coat
Flourish excel for plants
Garlic Guard (in food)

What is the best filter media I should be using for my Fluval 305 and I also have a Tetra Whisper EX 70. Right now all I have in my fluval is biowheels and all I have in my whisper is the softener pillow and one sponge. I am afraid to put anything else in that may affect the ph. Was told to take out carbon since I am treating them with the Melafix and Pimafix.

Not sure if I should continue doing the Melafix and Pimafix......thoughts????


Think I need an R/O filter but no nothing about it! I am sure it will cost a lot too!
Its just that the blue diamond looks pretty bad and I have a bad feeling about him. I will do a water change in a few hours I have to be somewhere in a few minutes....

[TURQ64]

Melafix and Pimafix are crap; toss 'em..All the rest, put in a box, and give away as necessary..Maybe keep and use up the stress coat, then use Prime or Safe..do a little searching here..Lots of folks use pythons, etc..And add the dechlor as they fill....RO's are basically cheap if you need one; cheaper than 2 fish..You can lose the softener pillow too, as wc's make it uneffective anyway...

[Skip]

i use the python to drain my tank while siphon.. BUT i drain it into tub.. while draining i siphon.. then i hook up the hose to facet and filler up..

imho its stupid to hook up Python, turn it on to drain the water in the tank.. it is just wasting water.. let gravity push the water .. however, it takes longer.. so i just use buckets to speed it up sometimes..

why do you think you need RO?

[lipadj46]

I would not toss the pimafix as you can use it to sedate or euthanize fish. As a medicine to not kill fish and actually heal them, yes they stink

[nc0gnet0]

Melafix has one usefull purpose, and that is the treatment of supericial cuts/abbrasions. As for a mediaction against bacteria and or parasites it is totally useless. The ammo lock isn't a bad product to have on hand in case of emergencies, other than that I would toss everything.

[JRMalick]

Be sure to keep the Tetra Easy Balance, or better yet, switch to Safe or Prime. You still need a water conditioner/dechlorinator if you are using water straight from the tap.

Leave the Ph alone! 7.6 is fine. Much better than drastic swings. And don't worry about the water hardness either.

Do multiple major water changes. Your nitrates and ammonia are WAY to high.

[judy]

What everyone else has said. Keep doing large water changes and keep testing your water. Your nitrates at 40 are very high and that is contributing to the problem. Large more frequent water changes will lower them. Your natural Ph is fine, leave it alone. Driftwood in the tank will help with alkalinity, but right now that's not your immediate problem. it would be nice if it were lower. not critical. Use Prime when changing water (yes, use your siphon) and just dump the Prime right into the tank, then fill it back up. A sixty percent water change daily would be a good idea. and get the tests you need and test the water twice a day yourself. Prime can introduce a false ammonia reading of .25 only because it binds ammonia into a non-toxic form that tests still read as ammonia. If you dose with more Prime than the water change requires, you should be able to keep the ammonia situation safe for the fish...

[frinklinduds]

okay go by everything judy turq and warlock said... heres my opinion (probably already mentioned but its short and to the point)

my advice is leave ph alone, use aged tap water (incase ur ph swings), if i would be in your situation i would not use any substrate, and also replace your use of carbon with routine water changes of atleast 50 percents daily 9 i have a well established tank and i do 50% everyday. The biggest thing with these fish is clean water and minimal nitrAtes (carbon will not do it for you and i find it useless as it results in more problems over time). Clean water and Stability

As for the fish your going to need all issues resolved until you can tell if a fish is actually "sick". i meen you can put any discus in your tank as of now and it will be dark because of you levels and swinging ph

[missdiscus]

Wow thank you everyone for opinions and advice. Stupid question but when you guys refer to "Prime" do you mean water conditioner. I have this stuff by Aqueon called Water Conditioner...is this okay to use or do I need Prime?

I am going to do water change right now. I was thinking that maybe my fish are this way because of all the water changes and not actually sick. I am gonna get some pics up today so you guys can see them.
Will keep you posted...

[Skip]

http://s.petco.com/assets/product_images/0/000116043601C.jpg

[TNT77]

http://s.petco.com/assets/product_images/0/000116043601C.jpg
Nice visual. :)

[Skip]

I have this stuff by Aqueon called Water Conditioner...is this okay to use or do I need Prime?

you answered your own question..

[Skip]

Nice visual. :)

i didn't feel like ESPLAINING anymore ;)

[JRMalick]

Prime is a specific brand of dechlorinator. Some brands call them "water conditioner". Most people who have discus prefer Prime (or Safe). However, since your biggest problem at the moment appears to be poor water quality, and you already have the other product, I would use it for now to do some big water changes, but replace it with Prime when you get a chance. Don't wait until you get the Prime to do some big water changes.

[JRMalick]

I just realized that you have practically no media in your filters. Carbon isn't necessarily your best choice. You might want to consider more sponge, ceramic rings, or other media for "good" bacteria to grow on. This won't solve your immediate problem, but will help in the long run. Filter floss, or other fine pored media, can be used to help clean debris from the water.

[frinklinduds]

it smells good too :) i fill it up ina spray bottle for air freshner (obviously kidding)

as far as media goes for filters the best things in my opinion to use is biomax and prefilter media (made by fluval) and spongy type material

also bio balls are good aswell i am using 1 canister filter with 1 coarse sponge, prefilter media, biomax, then a fine sponge.... my other filter will be 1 coarse sponge, then all bioballs and then a fine sponge (trying to get the best of both methods

add as little chemicals as possible to the tank, the fish wouldnt be introduced to them in the wild so the shouldnt need to be in your tank.... keep things stable and clean

all i use is prime, thats it (besides meds if necessary)

[ericatdallas]

Where do you live? Your water conditioner will work, but if you have chloramine in the water and you also have an uncycled tank, you're adding to the ammonia level, in which case, I would recommend you use the ammo-lock or get Prime/Safe. I don't use Prime or Safe, but I have chlorine in my water.

Further, I would go ahead and use the activated carbon while you're getting control of water quality. That's just me, others may disagree. However, filtration is no substitute for water changes (as you'll hear a lot here). At this point, I'm more concerned about the ammonia in your water and I would try to attack it through removal and chemically neutralize it.

I would also lower temperature as has already been mentioned. At higher temperatures, ammonia stays ammonia but as you lower the temperature you have more ammonium. I would also do the WC like everyone else is telling you.

Your discus are also still young. Nitrates will keep them from reaching full potential for growth. So I would keep that as low as possible as well. Nitrates will also stress them out.

Also, sounds like you didn't QT, so you may have other issues. First though, get those nitrogen compounds down to near zero.

[missdiscus]

Ok Everyone- first off I REALLY appreciate all your knowledge. So glad I found this site because researching and getting so many different random opinions was NOT helping. You all are saying the same stuff. That being said I am soo confused now. I just checked my ammonia after the water change and its coming up 1.0. I have NEVER seen it this high before. I just put ammolock in it. Why is it this high!!!

[missdiscus]

note to above- I did a 50% water change about 4 hours ago. Added the water conditioner. The fish were swimming and eating. Blue diamond still dark as ever though. I am going to get myself some prime (now that I have an awesome visual ;)

I will get a nitrate/nitrite test kit too. I have an amonia test kit

2 questions:
How do you feel about putting Peat in my filter?
What temperature should my tank be at? Is 86 degrees too high?

I just am confused about the ammonia, I thought doing a water change would help not make worse.

[judy]

your tank is definitely cycling. Get Prime as quick as you can to help render it non-toxic. If you can, do another 50% WC before bed. and one in the morning. The question about your filter media is very much a good one: what is in your filters? have you been cleaning them with tap water or tank water?
do not bother with peat right now. that tank has to cycle and it could take weeks. later on, when the tank is stable, you can think about things like peat and driftwood.
while you;re at it, test your tap water and tell us the results: ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, Ph. (though we don't care much about the Ph).

[JRMalick]

Your water probably contains chloramine, which your water conditioner doesn't remove or neutralize, which is why the ammonia level went up. Use your ammo-lock, until you get some Prime. Prime takes care of both chlorine and chloramine. However, Prime will cause a false positive for ammonia of about .25 on most test kits.

In my opinion, skip the peat (as well as all the buffers, water softener pillow, etc.).

I would lower the temp to 82-84. Higher water temperatures hold less oxygen for the fish to breathe.

Since you don't seem to mind doing some research, I would suggest you read the sticky under the water works section regarding "the Nitrogen Cycle". It will be a starting point in understanding what a "cycled" tank is. This will help you make sense of what the nitrite, nitrate, and ammonia readings mean. Usually, the tank should be cycled before adding your fish, which I don't think yours is/was.

[missdiscus]

Okay so I drug my 3 year old out with me to petsmart and bought Prime, a new bottle of Stress Zyme, Fluval Pre-Filter, and Fluval CearMax.
Is it in my fish's best interest for me to do another 50% water change tonight, adding the Prime? What else should I do? Doing another water change isn't going to make tha ammonia jump up again.

When I get my son to bed I am going to read the sticky note regarding cycling etc. No I made the mistake of putting fish in my tank before the tank was totally ready. Will not make this mistake again. Hope my fish survive so I don't have to.

I live in Aston PA, I think the water is very hard, that is all I know about it.

[TNT77]

Okay so I drug my 3 year old out with me to petsmart and bought Prime, a new bottle of Stress Zyme, Fluval Pre-Filter, and Fluval CearMax.
Is it in my fish's best interest for me to do another 50% water change tonight, adding the Prime? What else should I do? Doing another water change isn't going to make tha ammonia jump up again.

When I get my son to bed I am going to read the sticky note regarding cycling etc. No I made the mistake of putting fish in my tank before the tank was totally ready. Will not make this mistake again. Hope my fish survive so I don't have to.

I live in Aston PA, I think the water is very hard, that is all I know about it.
Just keep up with the water changes. Keep doing 2-3 50% water changes a day and you should see improvement.

[missdiscus]

Judy- So I purchased Mardel Mini Master Kit and tested the tap-
PH-5.5 (confused because when I test the PH using API's dropper test kit I get 7.6)
Alk-80
Hardness-150
Nitrite-0
Nitrate-40
Ammonia- 0.2

[JRMalick]

Definitely do another water change with Prime, and keep up the water changes. Be sure you understand how to use the Prime ... if you are adding water straight from the tap, put enough Prime in for the WHOLE tank (not just the water you are replacing), then add your water. If you age your water, then you can use just the amount for the new water. Ammonia should go down, not up using Prime. Nitrates should go down too. Use the Stress Zyme if you want, but it's not necessary. Honestly, I would skip it so that you have as few variables as possible.

[missdiscus]

trying to post pics

[missdiscus]

please copy and paste, can't figure out how to post pics but trying this...

http://www.winkflash.com/photo/photozoom.aspx?m=474747874&ic=9956474 (picture of my red dragon)
http://www.winkflash.com/photo/photozoom.aspx?m=474747874&ic=9956474 (picture of blue diamond, shows how dark he is)
http://www.winkflash.com/photo/photozoom.aspx?m=474747874&ic=9956474 (picture of blue diamond with flash)
http://www.winkflash.com/photo/editor.aspx?m=474751771&ic=9956474 (pic of my blue diamond before he got sick :(

[TNT77]

please copy and paste, can't figure out how to post pics but trying this...

http://www.winkflash.com/photo/photozoom.aspx?m=474747874&ic=9956474 (picture of my red dragon)
http://www.winkflash.com/photo/photozoom.aspx?m=474747874&ic=9956474 (picture of blue diamond, shows how dark he is)
http://www.winkflash.com/photo/photozoom.aspx?m=474747874&ic=9956474 (picture of blue diamond with flash)
http://www.winkflash.com/photo/editor.aspx?m=474751771&ic=9956474 (pic of my blue diamond before he got sick :(
Says to sign in when you click the link and can't see the pics. You have a photobucket account?

[missdiscus]

yeah i just signed up for it.......

[TNT77]

yeah i just signed up for it.......
Try posting from there. :)

[Sean Buehrle]

Change change change water and your problems will go away.

:)

[nc0gnet0]

Am I the only one noticing that here tap water PH is 5.5 while her tank ph is 7.6? STOP with large water changes out of the tap, you need to age and degass your tap water before you do a water change. Are you sure you have 40 ppm nitrates out of the tap? Are you on a well? please retest this please.

Rick

[missdiscus]

Just did a 50% water change, added prime 1 capful doesn't seem like enough though. Added the filter media. Blue diamond not looking too good. Just gotta hope for the best.
He is eating at least.

Just checked my water:
Ammonia per API dropper - 1.0
PH per API dropper- 7.0

Master Kit Strip results:
PH-5.5 (question this reading, I think the drops more accurate?)
Alk- 40
Hardness-150
Nitrate-0
Nitrite-0
Ammonia- 0.2

What are your thoughts?

[missdiscus]

ok when I test the tap using PH API drops its like 7.6. When I use the Masterkit strip it says 5.5. I really think the strip must be wrong. I will retest.

[Chicago Discus]

I really don't think its 5.5. where do you live ?

ok when I test the tap using PH API drops its like 7.6. When I use the Masterkit strip it says 5.5. I really think the strip must be wrong. I will retest.

[JRMalick]

The question about the Ph has 2 parts: what is the Ph straight from the tap, and what is the Ph after the water sits out for a long time (24 hours is best)? If the Ph of the water is significantly different after sitting out, then you cannot do water changes straight from the tap. Then you would need to age your water to avoid the fluctuations in Ph.

[Skip]

Not True JR..

pH is ok to go up...

its when pH DROPS during water change.. is the problem.

i haven't tested pH in over a year..

str8 from tap!? why dont mind if i do ;)

Miss.. forget strips... just use the dropper test.. thats better..

[judy]

OK, your second nitrate test showed zero-- but the nitrate test on the tap water was 40? you sure? that seems off. In any case, yes, another water change tonight and go straight tap. I think your Ph drop test has to be right. Do NOT worry about tap being a little higher than the tank Ph, if that should be the case. Warlock is very right-- Ph is OK to go up. Keep doing the WCs and make sure you use Prime every time and you should make it through this cycle. In a month or so, we'll talk other water tweaks. For now, that's all you need to do (Stress-zyme if you haven't used it yet you can return. It does nada.)
Hang in there. We gotcher back (but don't you EVER again introduce fish before a tank is cycled, bad, bad girl!!)

[JRMalick]

My bad.

Somehow, with all of the readings of Ph, tank and tap, strips and drops ... I got it in my head that your readings were the other way around. Totally my error.

Based on that, I ASSUMED that if your tank and tap water Ph readings were different, that your Ph was DROPPING during water changes. And, well, you know what happens when you ASSUME something (it makes an A** out of U and ME).

The end result was that I gave you some bad advice. Luckily, warlock and judy caught my mistake. I perfectly agree that it's ok if your Ph goes up a little bit. So, water changes from the tap should be ok.

That being said, since you've gotten some somewhat variable readings, and the somewhat strange nitrate reading of 40 from the tap, I don't think it would hurt to retest both your tank and tap on all parameters to be sure you know what the correct numbers are. The drops are usually more accurate, so I would use those.

[missdiscus]

Not True JR..

pH is ok to go up...

its when pH DROPS during water change.. is the problem.

i haven't tested pH in over a year..

str8 from tap!? why dont mind if i do ;)

Miss.. forget strips... just use the dropper test.. thats better..


Thanks for telling me that!

[missdiscus]

The question about the Ph has 2 parts: what is the Ph straight from the tap, and what is the Ph after the water sits out for a long time (24 hours is best)? If the Ph of the water is significantly different after sitting out, then you cannot do water changes straight from the tap. Then you would need to age your water to avoid the fluctuations in Ph.

when all this was happening a week ago I did take a cup of water from tap and test it after 24 hours. This was after I conditioned it and put ph down in it. It did not change. I will need to test just plain tap water for 24 hours to see wht that does. Ironically it was the fish tank water that sat in the cup for 24 hours that did the drastic change. I also did a cup with just water and the substrate which made the ph go up. This is why I took all my substrate out...twice. Looking like I may not needed to since I am still having the problem. But sounds like it is best not to have substrate anyway.

[TURQ64]

I'll chime in here again..Slight shifts either up or down aren't bad..of the two, a rise is less harmful. The common call is that you see gills burnt, etc. with a large drop, but you can stress out/kill off fish with a large rise also....

[missdiscus]

This morning the fish look better. Blue diamond has lightened up a bit. Ammonia is between 2.0 and 4.0. This is alarming. Please tell me this is okay since I did two 50% water changes. I put the prime in as instructed. I am about to do another 50% water change as advised. Need some reassurance! PH is 7.0 by the way.

[judy]

what ammonia test are you using? The prime will detoxify and show a false reading, but I've never heard of it showing one this high... I wonder if the test is faulty or you may be reading it wrong? Or do you mean .2, not 2? If .2, that's a false positive from the Prime, I suspect.

[JRMalick]

Boy, when I goof, I do it well! Because, of course, turq is right, too. And, I didn't clarify that part in my posts.

So, let me try again. Maybe I'll get things right and manage to put it clearly this time.

My understanding about the very basics of Ph changes:

1. A SMALL change in either direction probably won't do any harm.
2. Ph dropping is more harmful than Ph rising, so fish can tolerate a larger rise than drop.
3. A LARGE change in either direction is a bad idea.

[Skip]

DING DING DING!!!!!

[missdiscus]

what ammonia test are you using? The prime will detoxify and show a false reading, but I've never heard of it showing one this high... I wonder if the test is faulty or you may be reading it wrong? Or do you mean .2, not 2? If .2, that's a false positive from the Prime, I suspect.

I just tested again and its the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Its def like 2.0 almost 4.0. The kit I am using is API Ammonia NH3/NH4 kit. I put 5ml of water in vial, add 8 drops of Test solution #1 and then 8 drops of solution # 2,,,shake and wait 5 minutes. What am I doing wrong?!?!??!

[missdiscus]

just tested my tap ammonia and its coming up 0.50 so my tank is worse than the tap! The only other stuff in my tank I have used is PH down, Stress zyme. I have a few potted plants which have brown algae on them. I have driftwood and a fack wood ornamental thing and an airstone. SIGH! This is soo crazy. Should I do another water change?

[missdiscus]

OK, your second nitrate test showed zero-- but the nitrate test on the tap water was 40? you sure? that seems off. In any case, yes, another water change tonight and go straight tap. I think your Ph drop test has to be right. Do NOT worry about tap being a little higher than the tank Ph, if that should be the case. Warlock is very right-- Ph is OK to go up. Keep doing the WCs and make sure you use Prime every time and you should make it through this cycle. In a month or so, we'll talk other water tweaks. For now, that's all you need to do (Stress-zyme if you haven't used it yet you can return. It does nada.)
Hang in there. We gotcher back (but don't you EVER again introduce fish before a tank is cycled, bad, bad girl!!)

I so learned my lesson!!! Will never ever ever introduce tank before making sure it's right. I actually had the tank up and runnig for 5 days before puttting them in. But its the water chemestry that I should have ensured I had down before putting them in.

[Skip]

you put them in an UNCYCLED Tank.. so now the tank is trying to do what should have been done before fish went in.. hope the fish make it.. keep up the water changes..

[DerekFF]

I dont think prime will give false readings (I could be wrong) it only detoxifies ammonia/ites/ates not removes them. So tests for those should still be accurate as the levels are still the same

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

[judy]

yeah, what I mean is a false positive for the dangerous form of ammonia... FIVE DAYS?????????
whoa!!!! you will need to do water changes of **at least** fifty percent, more like 75% twice daily for a number of weeks if you hope to keep those fish alive. your option is to find a foster tank to keep them while you finish cycling your tank without fish in it. Your tank ammonia levels are shooting up because your tank is in the early stages of cycling. It is very risky to keep fish in that environment, though if you do those large water changes they could get through it...
here is the cycle: waste becomes ammonia, becomes nitrite, eventually becomes nitrate. Ammonia and nitrite are poison. The bacteria that handle these conversions need to increase their populations, and they live and increase in numbers in your filter materials-- sponges, ceramic beads, bioballs. That takes weeks until there are enough bacteria to feed off that waste in proportion to its production, and keep the poison levels down to zero. The cycle may be less severe if you can find someone with an established tank and ask them to give you a bucket of "squeezings" from their filters. That is water filled with lots of these good bacteria from the filters they have. Those bacteria will speed up the colonization of your biofilter. Do you have a local fish club with an online forum? If so, make an appeal through that forum. And keep doing those huge WCs twice a day, and keep using Prime...

[Sean Buehrle]

Just keep doing water changes.

Your getting a false reading because of the prime, your test kit doesn't work with prime in the water.

If your ammonia was 2 or 4 your fish would be belly up by now.

It's not going to be hard to keep them safe, just keep up the 50 % water changes and throw in a big one like 80-100 every few days and they will be fine.

Don't over feed them, keep the tank clean.

No biggie.

[nc0gnet0]

Just to clarify a few points..... I thought the ph at the tap was 5.5 which would cause a substantial drop in ph during water changes.....I guess retesting of the tap shows a ph of 7.0 now?

And yes PRIME will cause a false positive showing for ammonia (well not really) if the user has chloramine in the water. Prime will break the chlorine/ammonia bond, neutralize the cholrine and bind with the ammonia thus making it non-toxic, but this ammonia will still show up in the api test. What would be nice is if the original poster could draw some tap into a container, treat it with prime, then test it for ammonia to get a base line.

Rick

[missdiscus]

[QUOTE=Sean Buehrle;830333]Just keep doing water changes.

Your getting a false reading because of the prime, your test kit doesn't work with prime in the water.

If your ammonia was 2 or 4 your fish would be belly up by now.

It's not going to be hard to keep them safe, just keep up the 50 % water changes and throw in a big one like 80-100 every few days and they will be fine.

Don't over feed them, keep the tank clean.

[missdiscus]

[QUOTE=Sean Buehrle;830333]Just keep doing water changes.

Your getting a false reading because of the prime, your test kit doesn't work with prime in the water.

If your ammonia was 2 or 4 your fish would be belly up by now.

It's not going to be hard to keep them safe, just keep up the 50 % water changes and throw in a big one like 80-100 every few days and they will be fine.

Don't over feed them, keep the tank clean.

Thanks for the positive reassurance. I kinda figured if the ammonia was truly that high they would be dead. Did a water change today, ph okay and ammonia still like 2.0 ish. Put the prime in. They are eating ad swimming. Seem ok for now. Thanks again.


QUOTE]

[missdiscus]

Regarding the ph-
When I used strips the ph was showing 5.5...this has to be wrong. When I use ph drops the ph comes up 7.6. I am disregarding and not using the strips because it seems they are unreliable.

Regarding Ammonia- So I took tap,,treated it with prime,,,and the ammonia read 0. I put like 1/4 teaspoon of prime for about 1/2 cup tap. I am so confused.
Then I took plain tap and tested that again, the ammonia is 0.50.
Then I tested my ammonia again from my tank and it is between 1.0 adnd 2.0. WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

Just to clarify a few points..... I thought the ph at the tap was 5.5 which would cause a substantial drop in ph during water changes.....I guess retesting of the tap shows a ph of 7.0 now?

And yes PRIME will cause a false positive showing for ammonia (well not really) if the user has chloramine in the water. Prime will break the chlorine/ammonia bond, neutralize the cholrine and bind with the ammonia thus making it non-toxic, but this ammonia will still show up in the api test. What would be nice is if the original poster could draw some tap into a container, treat it with prime, then test it for ammonia to get a base line.

Rick

[nc0gnet0]

I would rather see a larger test on more tap, say fill a five gallon bucket and put in 1/4 capfull. But based on what you are telling me so far all I can say is yikes.....

It would appear that your ammonia readings from you tank are indeed accurate, however the ammonia has been neutralized (for now). You will need to maintain the water change routine and dosing with prime until your filters cycle. Do you have any friends with aquariums in which you might be able to borrow some filter media (cycled) from?

Rick

[missdiscus]

I did 5 gallons with 1/4 cupful and got 0.25

I am doing a 50% water change right now and since I still have my old floramax substrate in a bucket I am going to put some of it back in in hopes to put some bacteria back.

note* I have had the tank up and running for over 2 months, but when my ph was so high and I couldn't get it to come down, it was suggested that something in my tank was causing it....so I removed substrate and all media except biowheels. After doing the water change I guess I had no good bacteria left. So in trying to fix my ph problem I created a much bigger ammonia problem

[Skip]

relax...

just do the WC, Use Prime.. and let tank settle down and YOU settle down. you are making me nervous!!! chill... :)

ps.. ammonnia is added to drinking water.. and with chlorine will make Chlorimine.. USE prime.. it will show up on the ammonia test.. its ok.. it there.. BUT not toxic..



just use PRIME AS DIRECTED per Instructions..

[missdiscus]

relax...

just do the WC, Use Prime.. and let tank settle down and YOU settle down. you are making me nervous!!! chill... :)

ps.. ammonnia is added to drinking water.. and with chlorine will make Chlorimine.. USE prime.. it will show up on the ammonia test.. its ok.. it there.. BUT not toxic..



just use PRIME AS DIRECTED per Instructions..

I just took a huge sigh...I needed to hear RELAX...thank you

[JRMalick]

I agree with everyone else ... large water changes with Prime, and NOTHING else ... no buffers, no water softeners, no Ph down, etc.

And, if you haven't already done it, DO NOT add any of your old substrate back to your tank like you said you might. It has been out of the tank for a while, right? All of the "good" bacteria will be long dead. But bad bacteria, mold, etc. might well be going strong. You don't want to expose your fish to that. If you insist on substrate LATER, you could use it after it has been cleaned. But, it won't add "good" bacteria to your tank. It just provides them with a place to grow, like the stuff in your filters, but the "good" bacteria will die after being removed from the tank for a while.

[judy]

I agree with everyone else ... large water changes with Prime, and NOTHING else ... no buffers, no water softeners, no Ph down, etc.

Exactly, just that.... and yes, relax. 2X daily large WCs with Prime. that's all. much later, when all is settled, we will take baby steps forward as you develop the tank further...

[missdiscus]

I agree with everyone else ... large water changes with Prime, and NOTHING else ... no buffers, no water softeners, no Ph down, etc.

And, if you haven't already done it, DO NOT add any of your old substrate back to your tank like you said you might. It has been out of the tank for a while, right? All of the "good" bacteria will be long dead. But bad bacteria, mold, etc. might well be going strong. You don't want to expose your fish to that. If you insist on substrate LATER, you could use it after it has been cleaned. But, it won't add "good" bacteria to your tank. It just provides them with a place to grow, like the stuff in your filters, but the "good" bacteria will die after being removed from the tank for a while.

I did it already....I put like 25% on the bottom and a bit in my fluval. I can't win. I know I should have waited for all of your opinions first. The fish look good right now.

[Skip]

ok MISSY!! NO MORE CHANGES!

[missdiscus]

I SWEAR I am done and done...no more changes....welll just water changes..hehe. Lucky for me I only work on weekends so I have the time do be doing all this work!!

[JRMalick]

Don't panic! What's done, is done. It might not hurt your fish at all. I just knew that nothing good would come of putting it back in, but something bad could.

But, for now, stick to water changes with Prime, ok?

[JRMalick]

Come to think of it, there is one change that I, personally, would do. You put quite a bit of gravel back in, right? Enough to cover the bottom of the tank? I would remove it again, but not because of the bacteria/mold/etc. that might have been on it. IF there was harm to be done by that, it was done as soon as you put it back in the tank. However, I would remove the gravel for the reason that a lot of people who keep discus use bare bottom tanks. Gravel is incredibly hard to keep truly clean. Little bits of fish poo, fish food, etc. get trapped between the pieces. When that stuff rots, ammonia is given off, which is the LAST thing you need. Removing the gravel isn't an emergency. The most important thing is the water changes. But, I would take it out, especially if you put quite a bit in.

[missdiscus]

Thanks again.....I will take the gravel out..not tonight but soon. I am leaving this tank alone tonight! I only put enough gravel to just cover bottom. The fish are eating really good...like huge appetite. Bloodworms and beefhert. The Blue diamond looks better..he has more color and I can actually see his red-orange eye color again...before they were just grey. He is actually chasing the other around a bit. So he must feel better which is awesome to see.

[missdiscus]

Just an update to all those who gave advice:

Have been doing 50% water changes daily and not putting anything but Prime in. The fish are doing much better. The Blue Diamond has most of his color back and is eating.

My ammonia problem seems to be over. Thanks again everyone!:o

[Skip]

"WORD"!!!!!!