Need Help with PP quickly or other suggestion

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Hello friends,

I have a couple discus (adults) that were shipped and they had been cold for a while as there packaging was good, but I don't believe the heat packs held up to well. Their water had been below 70 degrees for I don't know how long but needless to say, they are not doing so well. I had slowly acclimated them as to not shock them back to 85 degrees for over 3 hours with a slow drip method. They are still (48 hours later) laying sideways on the bottom and not sure what to do at this point.

After speaking with a couple members here I did try the salt method but they did not take to that either. I hate to lose these guys.

I was wondering if I should try PP or something?

I have the PP crystals but trying to figure the formula is tuff since I was told by a member to use 75 grams per liter. The gram scales all read different for different dry goods. Should I measure this out at 1/3 cup per liter?

Thanks in advance for a hopeful solution.

Jeff

[nc0gnet0]

1/3 cup of pp per liter....are you serious?????? Argh!!!! Man I hope you haven't done this yet, not only will it kill the fish instantly, it most likely would disolve them!

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Nope havent, but been trying to get a mix measurement. I know its about 2 drops per gallon once its mixed.

[laborelch]

see here: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/fa/fa03200.pdf

Be sure you do the demand test, especially if you're using Prime in your water.

1/3 cup per liter is way too much.

I'm not sure I would pp the fish at this point - they seem stressed as they are and shedding their slime coats might not be helpful right now. No expert in this though, just my opinion.
Do you think they have parasites?

What I would do is maybe add some methylene blue to help with breathing.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

They are shedding their coat. I do have MB how much would you recommend for a 20 gal tank?

[nc0gnet0]

Ahh I see, your making a stock solution and then where going to add that to the tank at 2 drops per gallon.......thats not how you worded it. ;)

At any rate, I would not PP the fish at this point, if they do develope other issues, then after they are in better shape you can deal with that. As said above, I would prepare a QT tank with temperature at 82-84 and add meth blue as per instructions for a bath (not a dip). At a little bit of extra air and monitor.

Rick

[nc0gnet0]

One teaspoon per 10 gallons.

[laborelch]

BTW, 75 grams per liter is wrong, it should be 2 mg/L which translates into 7.5 mg / gallon and equals 2ppm.

[nc0gnet0]

he was making a stock solution, not adding that amount to the tank......lol........whew!!!!

[laborelch]

One teaspoon per 10 gallons.

For the methylene blue that is

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thaks all for the fast advice. I will keep you all posted. Sorry for the misunderstanding regarding dosing.

[nc0gnet0]

Just give them some time and hope for the best. Keep the tank dark and well aerated. And remove them from the presence of other fish. Don't dose the main tank with meth blue as it could effect your bio if not well established. The slime coat shedding could be a product of the salt (don't know what dose you used).

rick

[laborelch]

Just give them some time and hope for the best. Keep the tank dark and well aerated. And remove them from the presence of other fish. Don't dose the main tank with meth blue as it could effect your bio if not well established. The slime coat shedding could be a product of the salt (don't know what dose you used).

rick

+1 and good luck!

[DiscusLoverJeff]

The slime coat was coming off before I dosed anything. For the salt, after reading many threads, it seemed the dosage was 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons. I only used 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons. Again, did not want to shock the fish at anytime.

I have good experience with discus but never (knock on wood) have I ever had this experience. So in order to try and do the right thing, I came to the people who have done this before.

Thanks again everyone! Will see what happens.

Jeff

[Second Hand Pat]

Jeff, let us know how this works out. Hoping for a good outcome.
Pat

[DiscusLoverJeff]

So after some research, here is what I found on converting 7.5 mg to tsp. So according to this, I would need a half tsp of PP crystals per gallon of water. Correct?

To find out how many ml. 7.5mg. is, you do a ratio and proportion problem:
500mg.: 15ml. = 7.5mg.: X
Multiply the two outer figures first: 500X = 15 X 7.5
Then you divide the left figure(500) into the
answer to the right problem (15X7.5)=1125
So 500 into 1125 = 2.25 ml.
So 7.5mg. = 2.25 ml.
round off to 2, and that's less than 1/2 teaspoon
as a ml. - 4-5 ml. (orcc).
Or say 500mg is to15ml. as 7.5mg is to what? OR is to X
X being the unknown. The above will work for any solution, if you know
how many mg. are in how many ml.
If you took 15 ml. and got 500mg. then if you took 2.5 (or 2) ml.,
you'd be taking 7.5mg. After doing a few problems, it becomes
easier and automatic.

[TURQ64]

PP is a heavy oxidizer; it's best used for exterminating ectoparasites,bugs, and bacteria...My math has always been 760mg(3/4 gram) to 100g water...I don't see the need for PP in this post......I think it would be detrimental at this point.

[TURQ64]

I just hit my scale, and 1 teaspoon of PP holds 10.6 grams..that's a heaping sh*tload of PP....

[Discus Origins]

Lol... It sure is Gary, I could believe how much PP it took to make a stock 1L solution but now I have enough for eternity :)

Jeff, I think at this point salt and aeration would be your best bet. Would push salt to 1 tablespoon/5 gal as 1 teaspoon just irritates the fish but doesn't help them increase slime coat production or knock down ectoparasites.

Keep us updated.

[Chicago Discus]

Im having the same problem with my new pair of discus they arrived via fedex at 69 degrees and i don't know how long they have been at that temp. i acclimated very slowly turned the lights out and brought them back up 85 degrees very slow. They both are not doing well the male was laying at the bottom of the bag when I received him and I thought he was dead but he slowly started moving around when I started acclimating. Jeff I just sent you a PM ............ Josie

[Keith Perkins]

It doesn't look like your going the PP route anymore, but the correct amount for making a litre of stock solution per the BIDKA forum is 75 grams. They say 1 teaspoon equals approximately 7 grams. Then you dose at 2 drops per gallon.

[TURQ64]

I'd like to know where they got the 7 gram measurement. I buy and sell Gold by my scale, and it's dead on with the assayer....3 and a half grams is a big difference...in PP and Gold

[Jason K.]

just weighed 1 level teaspoon my scale read's 8 gram's...

[Jason K.]

I agree meth-blue and waterchange's...

[TURQ64]

Maybe I've got a bum teaspoon..But I'll stick to my scale...I'd take a beating at the smelter!

[Discus Origins]

Forget the teaspoons, they arent required to be certified for exact volume and can be off by a gram or two. Go with scale, and 75g per liter is correct for stock solution of 2 drops per gallon dosage at 2.5mg/l concentration.

[Keith Perkins]

Okay, you guys got curious and I had to go down to the fishcave and see what I'd come up with. I checked the calibration on the scale first and it came in dead on 5 grams. Pulled out the Walmart purchased plastic teaspoon and with my spoon and scale it came in at 8.04 grams.

Jeff - you ought to invest the less than $20 on e-bay to get a digital 100 gram scale that weighs to .01 of a gram. I GREATLY prefer weighing out meds, PP etc than using measuring spoons.

[nc0gnet0]

This is how I always have done it based on an old-time Koi guy who has dosed more PP than any of us can ever imagine:

To Make A Stock Solution:

Throughly wash and dry a 1 liter (1000 mL) poly soda bottle.
Fill the bottle half full of hot tap water.
Add two and one-half (2-1/2) LEVEL TEAspoons (about 15 grams) of PP to the bottle.
Cap the bottle and shake very well for one minute.
Let the resulting purple-black solution stand for 10 to 15 minutes. Shake occasionally.
Invert the bottle and inspect the bottom and sides for any PP crystals which have not dissolved. Continue shaking until all have dissolved.
Top-off the bottle with additional tap water (hot, cold, warm... no matter) and shake once more to mix.


Dose Table Using The Stock Solution Created Above

1 ppm = 0.25 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
2 ppm = 0.50 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
3 ppm = 0.75 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
4 ppm = 1.0 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
5 ppm = 1.25 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
6 ppm = 1.5 mL of stock solution per US Gallon
20 ppm = 5 mL of stock solution per US Gallon

I would never dose above 2 ppm. Never leave a fish being dosed with PP alone, monitor for signs of stress. When active PP will turn the water a pink/purple color. If you have alot of disolved organics in the water, PP might turn brown before the treatment is over. If this happens you will need to redose the PP. Any dechlorinator will de-activate PP, efectively turning it off. Always add oxygen during a PP dose as it can and does remove oxygen from the water (how much again depends on your disolved oraganic load.

[nc0gnet0]

At any rate, PP is not the answer in this instance. I would stick with the meth blue. I do not think salt will help either.

[Jason K.]

I've found with the 75 gram per 1 litre work's for me... guess you can really overdose this stuff. I've acutally used twice this amount on fry with no ill effect's..

[nc0gnet0]

guess you can really overdose this stuff

It's an oxidizer, not really a medication per say. It's mode of action is the same that as bleach (also an oxidizer).

[jimg]

l like using the 1.5 gram per liter then adding 100ml to 20 gallons less to dump down the drain or leave sitting around

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Will do Keith,

Thanks for the info, will check ebay today. Also, thanks to all for the support and advice!

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Well I thought I would update everyone to the status of the 2 discus. The female sadly is getting worse, she is getting a slight white fungus on the top of her fins (not ich that I can tell) and is still laying on the bottom. The male is moving around a bit but is staying close to the female. neither are eating at this point 4 days later.

Sadly I have not heard once from the seller regarding this issue. I am extremely dissapointed. I had some great help from Mark at DiscusOrigins and Secondhand Pat, thank you both.

The loss of these fish will definately devistate me as I thought the seller was a good person on this forum.

Sad Weekend,

Jeff

[TURQ64]

Well, sounds like a Columnaris outbreak to me...Furan 2, along with a half dose Kanamycin or Neomycin...Clean water, no salt 82 temp....No need to write them off yet,matey...

[Second Hand Pat]

Really sorry Jefff :(
Pat

[Jason K.]

Sorry to here this Jeff... like gary say's clean water, clean water, and more clean water.

[TURQ64]

Jeff, If this is the 'look', then skip my usual 'tons of clean water' for a week. Start with clean water, and do the above med's..

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0011.jpg

[Jason K.]

now that's one unhappy fish their...

[TURQ64]

Here it is eight days later..

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0026-1.jpg

Don't give up the ship!

[Jason K.]

Gary, in the if it is columnaris in it's initial stage's wouldn't PP work? incase Jeff dosn't have the other med's...

[Second Hand Pat]

Gary, when in the eight days did this guy start looking better. Quite the transformation. Still waiting for my guy to turn the corner.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thanks guys. And yes, that is very similar to what she has but just on the top of her fins. Still have meth blue in the tank but will go find these chems today hopefully.

Jeff

[TURQ64]

PP is very effective in the first 24 hrs., but once the slime is heavily infected, and they either sit on the bottom, or float on the top, my experience says that it's then both external and internal, in which case, PP will just stress the fish....That first hair prickly that something's out of whack is the first 24 hrs...

Pat, That one was a hardy fellow, but the 8 days were all 'ugly', he was half as bad in 6... I still have three that aren't 'clean' yet....It has tons to do with individual fish's immune systems, since it's a bacteria that is always present, but in balance.

[Jason K.]

Gary anythought's on teracycline? I know this is strong stuff but still effective no?

[TURQ64]

Well, I do on occasion use Oxytetracycline, but I feel it's one of those drugs that need close monitoring...If you can't get fishmed's, then a farm supply with tetra or oxytetra is better than dead fish..just...The deal as far as I'm concerned is that it is very effective on columnaris, but due to the foaming, degradation to brown, and extreme senitivity to light, it's hard for me to prescribe it to anyone....Nitrofurans are safer, easier to dose, and just as effective, if not more so...

[lipadj46]

I had a whole tank of 12 stedkers looking like turq's sick fish up above but worse, some had horrible fin rot too and fungus. All the fish were floating at the surface as if dead all stacked up in one corner of my tank, very depressing. I waited too long to treat but I hit them with kanamyacin mixed with furan-2 (100% daily water changes with full dosing of the meds) for 10 days. I still lost 4 but the guys who made it bounced back look great now. My advice also is to treat aggressively with antiobiotics at this point. I like the kanamyacin/nitrofurazone but oxytetracycline or the maracyns are good too.

[Jason K.]

I here yah Gray, but as the kanamyacin is a bit hard to come by fast. just looking at other option's...

[TURQ64]

The Furan 2 is excellent, I think it's better than Kana as far as turning the problem around..But any positive action beats a passive one..overnight it

[lipadj46]

If you need something readily available consider maracyn 1 and 2, also furan-2 or bifuran should be available most anywhere.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Been checking local Fish Shops and nothing. Available at a regular pharmacy perhaps?

[lipadj46]

Petsmart should have either the maracyns (maracyn 2 is what you really want, maracyn 1 is just for good measure) or furan-2, no?

[DiscusLoverJeff]

My local Petco has Maracyn-Oxy, will this work? I can get it fast.

http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&cp=9&gs_id=q&xhr=t&q=maracyn+oxy&rlz=1R2ADFA_enUS460&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1440&bih=630&wrapid=tljp1323724347792016&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=9830113630987540407&sa=X&ei=Um7mToTLH4SW2AXv2smRDg&sqi=2&ved=0CCMQ8wIwAQ#

[nc0gnet0]

Jeff,

Are your fish really looking as bad as what Gary posted (turq) or are you just seeing a bit of fin rot on the tips of the fins?

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Just on top of fins

[nc0gnet0]

That looks like a tea tree oil based product with deceptive labeling........

[nc0gnet0]

They should have api furan 2 in little boxes with 10 packets each.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Maracyn-2 is on its way. I will try that and do a 100% water change first to rid the meth blue and salt bath.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Just some FYI I found.

http://network.bestfriends.org/groups/friends_of_fish/news/archive/2006/06/23/preventing-and-treating-columnaris.aspx

[nc0gnet0]

the maracyn-oxy stuff Active Ingredients: Stabilized chlorine dioxide. I guess they have renamed maroxy.....I didn't put two and two together.

[TURQ64]

Some good starter info there, but Discus have many parameters unknown to Bettas..I always base anything I post here on direct, personal experience,as I've had the wonderful opportunity in my Discus lifetime to kill off my share finding cures....

[TURQ64]

I am a strong supporter of Maroxy, but not in this case...minor fungi,yes..killer bacteria, no...

[nc0gnet0]

The labeling of the product leads you to believe it would be a maracyn + Oxytetracycline combo.........I have only used it on fish eggs before.

[lipadj46]

it is a weak oxidizer, like a mini pp. unfortunately petco stopped selling antibiotics a while ago, petsmart still does.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Will let you all know tomorrow hopefully how the Maracyn-2 did. Fingers are crossed!

And thank you all again for the great suggestions and cures.

This as I said many times is "One Hell of an Amazing" forum!

[TURQ64]

Good luck, matey!..Keep us posted; PM or whatever..Gary

[jimg]

maracyn 2 never worked when I tried it. I have heard some use maracyn 1+2 together with good results. I have had the best results with furanase or pp then furan 2.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Normally here is were I should report good news after all the great help I received, but sadly the female died this morning and the male is not to far from death as well.

I should be angry that the seller is avoiding me, my emails, my phone calls and this thread. I should be angry that I am out a lot of money, money my wife gave me for an early Christmas gift. But I am angry that I could not save these guys. I let them down and myself. I have never felt so bad before.

Penang Eruptions were the fish I was waiting for to try and breed. In the long run friends, this is why I did not ship my Blue Diamonds; if you don't know how to do it, don't just be worried about making the money, think about the person on the other end who has to receive half dead fish because they were ice cold for a long time.

Enough ranting and venting; it's not about me it's about the loss of these fish.

Jeff

[TURQ64]

Damn, Jeff..Sorry to hear..Jeesh......Gary

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thanks Gary.

[Second Hand Pat]

I'm sorry too Jeff. Sure would like to see the male pull though.
Pat

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thanks Pat.

I had to get back to work today so I will not be able to monitor his health until I get home. I am unsure at this point what to even do once I get home other than hope for the best. I have tried as you know some good treatments, but I personally think the stress of being cold even for 12 hours was more than they could handle.

Jeff

[Discus Origins]

Very sorry to hear the news Jeff, I know you definitely gave it your best to try and save them. It's a shame what's happened to the fish and bothers me what the seller is doing, rather not doing, thru this whole ordeal.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thanks Mark for your words.

Maybe some people figure once they have their money, that the transaction is final. What bothers me is, he seemed like a good person here on the forums.

[Keith Perkins]

Really bummed to hear your news Jeff, really bummed. You finally come across exactly what you're looking for and then this happens.

[jimg]

Sorry to hear this...

[Jason K.]

sorry Jeff... sometimes no matter how hard you try you lose them anyway's ... sorry again buddy.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Thanks everyone.

[laborelch]

sorry Jeff.
Hope the male is pulling through?

[DiscusLoverJeff]

The male is looking better today, but still laying sideways. From the food left in the tank, he is still not eating. I am not giving up.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Came home from work to find the male is upright. He is not swimming, mostly in the corner, but it looks like progress. Gave him some frozen blackworms and he ate a couple. Hopefully it's a good sign.

[TURQ64]

attaboy....

[Second Hand Pat]

Good news Jeff

[frinklinduds]

good luck, terrible situation but it seems to be getting better for you

hope all works out

[Keith Perkins]

I bet that male is spunky again before you know it.

[yim11]

I have kept and bred penangs for a few years and they can sometimes be a little more sensitive than other fish.

What has worked for me - and this is the most difficult treatment of all - ever - is this:

Do Nothing.

Change lots of warm water, add dechlor and feed if they eat. You will have no idea how hard that is to do. You see the fish laying down and feel compelled to act. I don't. It's hard. But it works.

You could be adding more stress to a fish that was stressed from shipping by adding anything but clean warm water. The white you mention on the top fin could be some slime shed from the salt. Big fish take longer to adjust. They key is to let them be for the week or 2 it might take to settle in. Again, very hard to do.

The lower temps on delivery aren't always bad, I had some shipped in from NYC many years ago, during the winter, came in with water little above 60F, 3 wks later had wrigglers in the QT tank.

Just another consideration....
-jim

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Hi Jim,

Thank you for the advice. With all the help I received in this matter, I believe the female was doomed from the start. She did not look good even when I opened the bag. So now if the male does make a full recovery, I will have to spend even more money on a female and thats the bad part. I personally believe if this was done properly from the beginning (shipping I mean) all would have been good.

In the end you never know what could happen, all I know is I have this forum to thank for the great advice I received in this matter.

[mmorris]

I'm very sorry to hear, Jeff. Did the seller use oxygen?

[Kenny's Discus]

Jeff,

I'm so sry to hear of your incident but am glad to know the male is doing better. If there's the slightest thing I can help please don't hesitate to let me know anytime. You have some WONDERFUL friends here on SD that you can take that to the bank Jeff!:)

Keith, Pat, Josie and others, you have my utmost respect I salute you all!:)

Thanks,
Kenny