discus quality of life

[Orange Crush]

From a lot of the research I have been doing over the past week or so since I joined this forum it seems to me there are two general ways to have an aquarium set up for the discus:

1)Bare bottom tank with either no plants or a few potted plants and/or wood with light colored backround

2) A planted aquarium with substrate like gravel or sand, blackwater from peat or mopani wood and a darker backround simulating the blackwater conditions that the discus come from

The 1st option seems to make the discus less peppered and therefore more attractive and makes cleanup easier. The 2nd option is much more similar to what the discus conditions are like in the wild and I would think they would be less stressed in this set up.

It seems to me that the 1st option benefits the owner and the 2nd option would make the discus more happy.
Is this accurate? What are your thoughts on the matter because I really care more about the fish than any extra work I might have to do.

[Sean Buehrle]

From a lot of the research I have been doing over the past week or so since I joined this forum it seems to me there are two general ways to have an aquarium set up for the discus:

1)Bare bottom tank with either no plants or a few potted plants and/or wood with light colored backround

2) A planted aquarium with substrate like gravel or sand, blackwater from peat or mopani wood and a darker backround simulating the blackwater conditions that the discus come from

The 1st option seems to make the discus less peppered and therefore more attractive and makes cleanup easier. The 2nd option is much more similar to what the discus conditions are like in the wild and I would think they would be less stressed in this set up.

It seems to me that the 1st option benefits the owner and the 2nd option would make the discus more happy.
Is this accurate? What are your thoughts on the matter because I really care more about the fish than any extra work I might have to do.

No I don't think so.

Number 1 I don't think fish are happy like a dog, if I thought that I wouldn't be able to eat fish sticks.
For them to be happy they would need to have emotions, they don't.

The best possible thing you can do for a fish is give them great water.

Actually it is probably more the other way around, I wish like heck I could keep these fish happy and healthy in a kick butt planted aquarium, in most cases that ain't happening. You can see the effects of keeping discus in planted aquariums all over this website. That's not to say people ain't doing it though, some people are just good at it.

These fish require kick a$$ water to live healthy existences.

[Discus Origins]

My personal opinion, any domestic strains look wierd and out of place in a biotope/planted/substrate tank. They were all most likely raised in BB tanks, never seen substrate or plants and will more likely be stressed more in a planted tank than BB tank.

If you were to keep wilds then a biotope tank would be less stressful for them as that was the environment they have known their whole life.

[Skip]

Researching only one week?!.. Pffft! People research 20 yrs and still learn new things...

Discus want clean water.. Put that in whatever tank type u want... Thats up to u..

Ps... Dom. Strains have been breed out of amazon biotope for so long.. U might jus stress them if u do..

[phinkin]

Discus don't seem to interact with the substrate too much. So I think for discus, substrate is for the fish keeper's aesthetic taste.

For quality of life, water changes are high on the list. Period. My water changes are automated - about 20 to 30 gallons per day in about 130 gallons of total water.

A place to hide may also help for stressful times.

Blackwater conditions help me keep water parameters stable more to a discus' liking. I have recently used beech leaves from a tree in the yard. Very effective. Otherwise peat is good. Either way you peer at brown water.


Jim

[Altum Nut]

Hey OC,

It's basically a personal preference.
Keep in mind your second option should apply to wilds. Domestics have no clue on wild biotype.
You can still enjoy many other stains of discus which do not pepper like PB discus.
Healthy discus stress only during new transport and acclimatizing period. They will eventually settle in so long as conditions are kept prestine.
Both options can be successful and really depends on the effort you put into it.

Just my two cents...but I like to be able to see what needs cleaning during my regular water changes which is why I go BB on all my tanks.

Not sure if my thought was of any help,
...Ralph

[Skip]

Wait till u see how much poo will collect in a bb in s
Jus one day..... Then see if u want a substrate..

[rebus20]

I have been trying to decide the same thing. I have my 4 discus in a small 20gal bb tank but I have a 60gal planted tank I want to move them to and plan to do so in the next week. The bb is so much easier to clean but the gravel looks better. I cant keep them both because the wife is on my case about getting rid of the smaller one. I plan to move my 4 to the big tank but then I am going this weekend to get 2 more so I will have to quarantine them for a while so it looks like I will make her unhappy for a little longer :)

[TURQ64]

Our sponsors love all the gravel bottom folks..They keep buying, and keep losing fish, but they sure love the gravel and plants!

[Stag]

2Cents:

I recommend any new discus owner start with a BB(Bare Bottom) setup. Give it a while(a few months). After seeing all that poop and food build up if you still want sand, plants, wood and bubbling treasure troves.... Go for it!

[Stag]

Our sponsors love all the gravel bottom folks..They keep buying, and keep losing fish, but they sure love the gravel and plants!

Do you think our SD sponsors would sponsor my new "Discus specialty gravel" online store!?

[Second Hand Pat]

This is the way I see it..learn to care for the discus in a BB and keep them healthy for several months, then decide.

[nc0gnet0]

I beleive fish in general prefer some structure, but structure doesn't need substrate. You can suspend driftwood from the top of the tank downwards and still have a BB tank.

Rick

[Chicago Discus]

wow orange crush poked a nerve with you guys LOL

[Larry Bugg]

I'm with Mark on this one. Domestics are many generations removed from the biotope and are probably just as confortable in the bare bottom tank. On the other hand, Wilds have known nothing but the biotope their entire lives. IMO to give them the best opportunity to live happily and to their potential they shoud be in the biotope tank.

[yim11]

I don't think fish are happy like a dog, if I thought that I wouldn't be able to eat fish sticks.
For them to be happy they would need to have emotions, they don't.

The best possible thing you can do for a fish is give them great water.

Exactly.

[Sean Buehrle]

wow orange crush poked a nerve with you guys LOL

Nope didn't hit a nerve at all.

It's just been proven time and time again that dirty tanks and old water are bad for discus.

It seems that people ask for approval before putting young discus in a planted tank. And some go ahead and do it anyways.
It's been asked here since the first day they started letting people join this site.

Even back then the answer was,

It's not advised :)

[Orange Crush]

Well, I happen to think that all sentient beings that have a brain stem react to their environment with a stress response whether or not that means they have feelings or emotions like a dog I do not know but it was not that long ago that people laughed at the thought of animals experiencing human like emotions and yet we now know they do. Either way animals do better in a environment that reduces stress.

Warlock, I know that a week is nothing which is why I was asking the question. I wanted to summerize the over arching themes I had been reading on the forum and see what people had to say as one part of doing even more research.

I understand that super duper extra clean water is very important to the discus but plants are one of the easiest ways to keep water perameters good and clean of ammonia and nitrates. Since I have live plants in all of my other tanks I can pretty much sit back and enjoy them with almost no work at all (feeding and occasional prunning). However, I realize it will make for a lot more work during water changes which is why I wanted other peoples opinions before I make up my mind on how to procede before I buy the discus.

In my 20 years of experience in working with animals and keeping fishI find it hard to believe that many generations of breeding a fish in a BB tank would remove the desire for a fish to be with plants. Animal nature is just that and cannot be so easily removed. Our human anscestors grew up in nature and now most of us live in cities yet we still desire to connect with nature by camping, fishing, going to the park etc. because it makes us feel better and less stressed. Indoor cats still want to chase birds and physically do better if they eat raw meat. You cannot remove the animal instincts and behaviors that make each species unique. Can you imagine everyone playing fetch with their house cats and then watch them burying their bone for a rainy day?

I am not asking for anyone's approval if I decide to do a planted tank, and yes it would really suck for the fish if I killed them because I put them in the most natural looking environment possible but, I have not made a decission yet which is why I was asking "the experts".

Sorry if I pushed any buttons :p

[ShinShin]

Plants in discus habitat? Not from what I have been told by people who've been there. Roots and blowdowns are their home. Clean water, good food, and a nonthreatening enviroment is all they need. Even a wild discus, once acclimated to his new enviroment, if nonthreatened, needs nothing else. I've had wild discus with domestics, and they were the most gregarious fish in the tank. First to the front of the glass when they saw me coming.

Some people want to place human attributes to discus that do not exist in their world. They're fish, that's all. A study by state fish biologists in Pennsylvania resulted in the findings that fish are only slightly smarter than the rocks that they hide behind. This, of course, upset all the trout fisherman in the state.

Mat

[GrillMaster]

You can put discus in whatever set up you see fit IMO. As long as they have a clean tank and clean water. Like Mat said, they are just slightly smarter than the rocks they hide behind. Decorate it how you like just keep changing the water. They will acclimate themselves to whatever you have goin on in the tank as long as its clean and yer feedin em. ;)

[Skip]

What are your thoughts on the matter because I really care more about the fish than any extra work I might have to do.

you asked for thoughts.. you got them..

take pics of your tank when its setup and running for updates..

:)

[John_Nicholson]

It is not that you pushed buttons it is just that you are wrong. Several of us have been doing this for a very, very long time and we have seen this exact type of post hundreds of time. You know what? It ALWAYS ends the same. The newbie ignores the advice and puts their small discus in the heavily planted tank. They post pictures and claim how successful they for 3 or 4 months and then suddenly the disappear. What happened? Well all of their fish got sick and the vast majority of them died. Once a discus gets sick it normally does not take a long time for them to punch out. Also they have a brain the size of a pencil eraser. All they want to do is eat and reproduce. Their behavior is controlled by instinct not IQ.....

-john


Well, I happen to think that all sentient beings that have a brain stem react to their environment with a stress response whether or not that means they have feelings or emotions like a dog I do not know but it was not that long ago that people laughed at the thought of animals experiencing human like emotions and yet we now know they do. Either way animals do better in a environment that reduces stress.

Warlock, I know that a week is nothing which is why I was asking the question. I wanted to summerize the over arching themes I had been reading on the forum and see what people had to say as one part of doing even more research.

I understand that super duper extra clean water is very important to the discus but plants are one of the easiest ways to keep water perameters good and clean of ammonia and nitrates. Since I have live plants in all of my other tanks I can pretty much sit back and enjoy them with almost no work at all (feeding and occasional prunning). However, I realize it will make for a lot more work during water changes which is why I wanted other peoples opinions before I make up my mind on how to procede before I buy the discus.

In my 20 years of experience in working with animals and keeping fishI find it hard to believe that many generations of breeding a fish in a BB tank would remove the desire for a fish to be with plants. Animal nature is just that and cannot be so easily removed. Our human anscestors grew up in nature and now most of us live in cities yet we still desire to connect with nature by camping, fishing, going to the park etc. because it makes us feel better and less stressed. Indoor cats still want to chase birds and physically do better if they eat raw meat. You cannot remove the animal instincts and behaviors that make each species unique. Can you imagine everyone playing fetch with their house cats and then watch them burying their bone for a rainy day?

I am not asking for anyone's approval if I decide to do a planted tank, and yes it would really suck for the fish if I killed them because I put them in the most natural looking environment possible but, I have not made a decission yet which is why I was asking "the experts".

Sorry if I pushed any buttons :p

[3dees]

gravel, sand, or bb. planted, biotope or bare. I think that discus (including wilds) will acclimate to any tank. like others have said, the quality of the water and compatible tank mates are whats important. I don't think plants and juvies is a good idea. planted tanks are not natural to any discus. I have wilds in a biotope and while it's probably not needed for thier survival, I do think it makes them more comfortable. personally, I could never have a bare tank. I need to enjoy looking at the fish and the tank, but then again I do not plan on breeding. I would rather spend the extra time on maintanence in a natural looking tank than the sterile look. of course this is just my opinion.

[gerrard00]

I wanted a planted tank, so I ignored the advice I read here and threw 2.5 inch juvies into a newly planted tank. I figured daily water changes weren't really necessary and the people on this forum were just "over the top".

After a month or so, I decided to do some daily water changes due to some illness and the behavior of the fish changed dramatically. Their appetites went up and they became way more active. In the end, I spent a year plus constantly trying to keep the tank clean and food bits out of the plants and substrate. Sometimes it almost seemed like the fish were purposefully spitting little bits of food into the plants! The discus were OK as I was constantly changing water, but the plants hated it and never really grew. My nitrates never got above 10ppm, but there was a ton of organic material floating in the tank and my guys were less active and less aggressive eaters if I ever skipped one day's water change. That's the thing, I went into the whole planted tank thing thinking it would lead to "almost no work", but it wound up being a lot more work than if I had gone BB.

Now, about 16 months into the journey, I'm more comfortable with my planted tank. I only do wcs 2-3 times a week, I only feed beefheart and other messy food before wcs and I feed less food overall. I'm happy with it now that they are adults, but there's no way that I'd ever raise juvies in a planted tank again. Never again!

As for creating a natural environment, I encourage you to read more about what their habitat actually looks like. Here's one good article:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2724

I think you'll find that the typical discus planted tank with submersed plants like swords (like the tank I have) is in no way a natural environment. I like my plants, but they are definitely in the tank for me and not the fish.

[Chicago Discus]

Nope didn't hit a nerve at all.

It's just been proven time and time again that dirty tanks and old water are bad for discus.

It seems that people ask for approval before putting young discus in a planted tank. And some go ahead and do it anyways.
It's been asked here since the first day they started letting people join this site.

Even back then the answer was,

It's not advised :)

No Sean your right I was just being funny(or trying to).

[Jerry1]

I've had 7 in a 29g BB for a couple months. Within the next 2wks, I will be getting one more and they will all be going into a 120g BB with wood and some plants. I'm keeping it BB for at least 6 months during grow out and will then convert it using PFS.

I know many people locally that successfully have discus in planted tanks long term. I definately don't see it as a "do it and kill your discus" scenario. If I kill my discus, it will be from some other reason! LOL

[moon_knight1971]

Agree that it's all up to the owner and how much work they are willing to put in to keep their fish healthy. Planted or not clean water is a must.

Joey!

[Knircky]

Discus don't seem to interact with the substrate too much. So I think for discus, substrate is for the fish keeper's aesthetic taste.

For quality of life, water changes are high on the list. Period. My water changes are automated - about 20 to 30 gallons per day in about 130 gallons of total water.

A place to hide may also help for stressful times.

Blackwater conditions help me keep water parameters stable more to a discus' liking. I have recently used beech leaves from a tree in the yard. Very effective. Otherwise peat is good. Either way you peer at brown water.


Jim

Can u explain how u automate the water change?

[Skip]

Can u explain how u automate the water change?

you should start a thread or (search, like i did for this) and not HIJACK This.... :) or just PM your question

[ericatdallas]

The 1st option seems to make the discus less peppered and therefore more attractive and makes cleanup easier.

Discus pepper (PBs) when they're stressed. So by your statemet, you partially answered your question.

As for evolution and breeding out the plants and 'wild' out of domestics... the only thing I can say is that, "I personally prefer concrete, A/C, and cushy fabric bed in clean home to looking for bugs and fruit, dealing with the natural weather, and picking mites off my family members."

As for what the Discus think to perfect temperature, clean water, endless supply of food... I can only guess :)

[Orange Crush]

I am not buying juvies and I am not buying PB discus, I do not care for the look of them as much as other strains so if I go blackwater planted I hope the discus will not pepper as much.
Also, as a student (later in life career change) I am at home alot and I have plenty of time to do maintanance. Taking care of all of my tanks and their inhabitants is my "happy place" (my spouse does not get it but at least is supportive).....

[ericatdallas]

I am not buying juvies and I am not buying PB discus, I do not care for the look of them as much as other strains so if I go blackwater planted I hope the discus will not pepper as much.
Also, as a student (later in life career change) I am at home alot and I have plenty of time to do maintanance. Taking care of all of my tanks and their inhabitants is my "happy place" (my spouse does not get it but at least is supportive).....

If you don't do juvies, I think most people agree it's fine. Just be careful with the food. I used to do large water changes daily on my discus planted tank but a lot of food still got stuck between plants, between rocks, etc.

But I think I read you're experienced with that so I won't go into it any further. I kept Adult discus in a planted tank and they seemed to do fine. They didn't care for the high lights though, but I know people have varying experience with that.

[judy]

Actually, there is a third option orangecrush did not mention: a barebottom tank with a large driftwood element and plenty of potted plants. It ends up looking a lot like a planted tank without substrate.

[ericatdallas]

Well, there are plenty of options to include the glazed substrate :)

I had plan of using a undergravel filter and connecting them to canisters that would pull the gunk through the gravel and into the canister. Solving the gunk buildup problem.... The other option was to do a RFUG and push the water up, but a lot of people say that's a terrible idea.

Another idea was to plan the setup... and put a big pieces of plastic where I wasn't going to have plants. That way, while it looks like there's a thick gravel, it's only strips where I can put plants. Everywhere else will have a thin layer that I can vacuum easily and it wouldn't trap many particles.

Yet another option is using foam, using quickcrete, and creating a rock landscape, and dig out holes where I could put rockwool and put plants in it.

I had a few more idea :P

But needless to say, I gave it CONSIDERABLE thought and didn't go through with it. After I finish my disseration, maybe I'll have the time to 'do' than to 'plan'.

[Orange Crush]

The nice thing about the lighting I have is that it is very versatile. I have 4 bulbs and a row of LED I can have just the LED on, I can have all 4 bulbs on with the LED, just 4 bulbs on, just 2 bulbs and the LED or just 2 bulbs on. I wanted a super versatile light so that no matter what I decided to do with the tank (now or in the future) I have the right light for it!

[ericatdallas]

You should make it blink and flash... the Disco Discus tank.

[Orange Crush]

:(

[yim11]

How about this - you can have bare bottom with the sand look on the bottom:

http://www.fishyreview.com/fake_sand.html

[Chicago Discus]

You should make it blink and flash... the Disco Discus tank.

You can have a dance floor put in and the discus can learn all the new moves LOL

[Jennie]

I through pool filter sand in and wood..nothing else now..I keep the wilds and domestics in the same tank..they're all happy with that setup..some hang out in the wood, some dont..surprisingly enough, the wilds prefer open space.

[LizStreithorst]

Now that I am feeling better I will be my normal agressive self and say that this discussion is stupid. The cleaner the water the happier the fish. End of discussion.

[nc0gnet0]

There is actually a little bit of truth to both sides of the discussion. You can take a tank raised domestic discus that has never seen a plant or hunk a driftwood before in his life, place him in a tank with a hunk of driftwood, and whala, that will be his/her new favorite place to hang. Fish do prefer some structure, and years of domestication still doesn't eliminate the fight or flight instinct. That being said, water quality is still of the utmost importance, but you can still give a fish some structure without sacrificing water quality. I beleive a Discus is everybit as happy if not more so with a piece or two of driftwood as it would be with a plant, and driftwood doesn't require a substrate or even need to be on the bottom of the tank.

Rick

[TURQ64]

or any fertilization, although a lot of driftwood gets fertilized!

[Orange Crush]

Now that I am feeling better I will be my normal agressive self and say that this discussion is stupid. The cleaner the water the happier the fish. End of discussion.
DUH. I think that has been said many times throught this thread but in a more mature and less *****y way.

I have sand in a couple of my other tanks but I found that hard to gravel vac so I don't. Fortunately with the snails, shrimp and plants in those tanks I never have to, the nitrates stay <5, the plant roots and snails keep the sand airated, and the shrimp and other fish eat any remnants of food but how would you manage to keep the tank clean enough for discus with a sand bottom without sucking up all of the sand?
Fake sand bottom is not an option if I decide to do plants.

[TURQ64]

DUH. I think that has been said many times throught this thread but in a more mature and less *****y way.

how would you manage to keep the tank clean enough for discus with a sand bottom without sucking up all of the sand?
. First, I'll duck the large anvil Liz is about to throw this way...

easy..you add a stingray, and they keep the sand moving enough for your filtration.Voila!..Sparkling sand, whiter 'n snow!

[Discus Origins]

[QUOTE=TURQ64;833059]First, I'll duck the large anvil Liz is about to throw this way...QUOTE]

I'm ducking with you Gary ;)

[Stag]

It is not that you pushed buttons it is just that you are wrong. Several of us have been doing this for a very, very long time and we have seen this exact type of post hundreds of time. You know what? It ALWAYS ends the same. The newbie ignores the advice and puts their small discus in the heavily planted tank. They post pictures and claim how successful they for 3 or 4 months and then suddenly the disappear. What happened? Well all of their fish got sick and the vast majority of them died. Once a discus gets sick it normally does not take a long time for them to punch out. Also they have a brain the size of a pencil eraser. All they want to do is eat and reproduce. Their behavior is controlled by instinct not IQ.....

-john

I like u! :D

[Stag]

Crush... I have a BB with a fake sand bottom and a bunch of java ferns(and and some weird long swords) suction cupped to the walls my my tank.

I feel it kinda gives the best of all world.

-No need to clean the plants like plants on bottom or top
-No sand to deal with
-No wood to pull out and clean around
-Some structure
-Some visual appeal
-Plus, I feel some discus colors pop when contrasted with plants.

PS, OP: Since when do plants remove ammonia? this is news to me.

[ericatdallas]

PS, OP: Since when do plants remove ammonia? this is news to me.

This is actually true, but excess can harm plants. How much a plant can absorb ... as with everything DEPENDS. It depends on ceoncentration, species, etc.

[ericatdallas]

Fake sand bottom is not an option if I decide to do plants.

You can make a fake sand bottom that has little holes that you could fill with real sand to keep plants. It'll be like a built-in pot.

[Orange Crush]

She can throw an anvil if she wants, I will not be intimidated by bullies :angel:

Turq64: Pretty sure I do not want a stingray in my tank.

Stag: I like the suction cup idea, I could do fern, moss, anubis...

[moon_knight1971]

How about this - you can have bare bottom with the sand look on the bottom:

http://www.fishyreview.com/fake_sand.html

I might try this one day.....

Joey!

[John_Nicholson]

2 quick notes.

1. leave Liz alone.

2. You stated earlier that you would not be getting PBs....You next stated that you hoped that the fish you got did not pepper much.....I know that you have been researching this for weeks now but only PB's pepper.......

-john

[TURQ64]

O.K., I was adding a little levity...Instead, I'm actually with Nicholson on this. Almost to the letter in fact. And the part he forgot is that, like most newb's, the first post if they make it to the disease section is a ton of worry over harming their plants while trying to save their Discus...Then they bail out and we don't hear from them again...Now I'm pulling the ripchord. Defy the odd's, prove me wrong. I've preached a bare tank, tons of wc regime for 5 decades officially this year. I'll keep an eye out for you to topple my regimen in 2013.

[Stag]

This is actually true, but excess can harm plants. How much a plant can absorb ... as with everything DEPENDS. It depends on ceoncentration, species, etc.

Where did you find this info? I would like to look more into it.

[Jason K.]

five decade's is one **** of a long time Gary!!!!

[Orange Crush]

Well, I'm sure that some day I will be posting to the disease section whether I do BB or not it is just one of those things but, I joined this forum a couple of weeks ago since I want to learn all that I can before I buy the discus next year because I don't want my first post to be in the disease section.

As for the non PB's not peppering, I had not ran across that. I have read that PB's pepper the most but this is the first that I have read that only PB's pepper.

[TURQ64]

PB's are the origin of peppering. They are fairly 'new' as a strain..1980's invention....Turquois,Turquois,Turquois,Heckel,Tur quois,Turquois..............No bias here.

[ericatdallas]

Where did you find this info? I would like to look more into it.

It's something I know and can't remember where I know it from... you can google it though :)

Although I'm going to "qualify" my statement further in case you are going to provide 'nits'.

It's hard to distinguish ammonia from ammonium (NH4), but while a plant bypasses the nitrite/nitrate converstion to assimilates ammonium, the water will further convert free ammonia into ammonium. In fact, for this reason, it's almost impossible to know if aquatic plants are assimilating NH4 or NH3.

But I consider that a 'nit' b/c it's possible to arbitrarily adjust the NH3 and NH4 b/c if you suddenly placed ammonium or ammonia into a solution, it will go from one to another based on the pH and temperature of the solvent.

Further, I think there is evidence that ammonia is absorbed in small quantities by terrestrial plants, furthering strengthening the argument that there is at least nominal free ammonia uptake in aquatic plants.

Normally I would probably provide you all the links, but I'm seriously procrastinating too much as it is right now just by typing this out... :/

[Skip]

i heart discus :)

[ShinShin]

OC,

All you want is someone to agree with you and the only ones who will don't know crap about discus. There are two kinds of people here: Discus people and people who keep discus. The discus people told you where its at, the people who just keep discus told you what you want to hear. Plants do not exist in the discus' natural habit. Roots and blowdowns do.

Mat

[Orange Crush]

ShinShin,
I am not looking for anyone to agree with me, I haven't even made up my mind yet. I was only looking for clarification of an amagamation of the many posts I have read. Not to offend anyone but before I had started this particular thread I realized that clean water was of the upmost importance and so I was starting to think that people with BB tanks were just being lazy and did not want to deal with the hastle of cleaning a tank with substrate and plants. So, I found other ways to word my 1st post in an attempt to get the reasoning behind why people keep such beautiful fish in a barren tank. However, it seems like people have gotten the wrong idea about me, I've pushed some buttons and people have made incorrect assumptions as to why I started this line of questioning. So there it is, take it or leave it. I'm just wanting to learn from the knowledge you all have....

[Discus Origins]

OC,

There is not a correct answer to your question because of too many variables....even at this point you don't really know what you want yet as tank won't even be set up until next year. I know you are trying to learn as much as you can and some of us sound short only because we've seen the same BB vs Planted tank question over and over. The first time you hear the question you will take the time to explain in detail, but the hundredth time you hear the same question you will bound to just say it in a few words and be done with it.

I have and many on the forum have raised discus in both BB and planted tanks. Many discus have died in our hands through our learning lessons. I will give you the short version and it is only my opinion, not the only way.

If you are going to buy juvies, they will grow best in a BB tank because you will have to stuff them with food and do lots of WCs. When you over feed a tank, which is actually a requirement for good growth, your water parameters will deteriorate quickly. Live plants won't do well in that condition, your substrate will trap lots of waste, keeping the water quality high is your biggest challenge in a planted tank. In a BB tank there is nothing to hide, you can literally do a 90% WC and refill quickly with aged or dechlorinated water without having to worry about upsetting any balance of a planted tank. I have raised many juvies in a biotope tank (plants and wood or just wood and sand) but even that required high efficiency filtration (wet/dry sump) and at least 50% WC daily to make sure they grew at correct rate. I found it easier to raise juvies in a BB tank as it was just easier to clean without worrying about moving wood/plants/etc. Doesn't mean you can't do it, but most people fail because eventually they get lazy and don't keep up the maintenance.

If you buy adults, by all means keep them in whatever tank you choose. There is no more stunting the fish and they feed much less than juvies. Easier to maintain water quality if you don't like the look of a plain BB tank. At the end its going to be a decision between what is best for the fish and what is best for you. Most people will choose what is best for them (planted looks better, BB is easier to clean), just remember to do what is best for the fish.

[Orange Crush]

I am not going to buy juvies since I am a beginner, I guess I should have stated that when I started this thread.

It sounds like you are saying that it all depends more on how much work you are willing to do or not do to keep the discus healthy and happy and not whether you keep them in a BB tank or planted. Which is pretty much what I said in my 1st post, the choice is between what is better for the fish and what is better for the fish caretaker. I do not mind spending lots of time and money on my hobbies, I just want to make sure that I am providing the best possible "home" for them.

[pcsb23]

Before this thread heads south, just a reminder to everyone to keep things civil .... thanks

[Orange Crush]

Based on the way that people responded to my question it apparently pushed some buttons. However, I think everyone has been pretty civil considering they seem to have very strong opinions. :argue:

[John_Nicholson]

Just to clarify keeping them in bare bottom tanks is not because anyone is lazy. It is best for the fish. While I am making some upgrades to my fish house, when it is running I change between 400 and 600 gallons of water a night. I don't think that is lazy. I would spend around 2 hours a day just on maintenance. You need to remember that very few discus keepers have just one tank.....

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

Good point John, last year this time I had no discus, total newbie. Now, 5 tanks and 26 discus.

[ExReefer]

John, your post early on about newbies with planted tanks ending up in the disease section made me laugh because it's true. I was one those newbies at one point...trying to power feed BH to my juvies in my planted discus tank. It was a ton of work making sure I kept the tank spotless and eventually I got burned out and starting cutting back on WC's. It only got worse after that. As we both know, cutting back on WC's is typically never a good thing. I'm sure there are some exceptional people out there that would never get burned out, but I'm not one of them.

I know keep a small group of discus and manage just one large discus tank in my fish room. I don't bother with juvies so that most of the hard work has been done for me. My method of keeping a smaller group of less demanding discus in a large tank (125G) allows me more time between WC's. As winter approaches, I've been toying with the idea of adding more discus knowing full well that would increase the need for more WC's. There's just no way around that. That's why I haven't pulled the trigger on a purchase yet.

[ericatdallas]

Just to clarify keeping them in bare bottom tanks is not because anyone is lazy. It is best for the fish. While I am making some upgrades to my fish house, when it is running I change between 400 and 600 gallons of water a night. I don't think that is lazy. I would spend around 2 hours a day just on maintenance. You need to remember that very few discus keepers have just one tank.....

-john


Good point John, last year this time I had no discus, total newbie. Now, 5 tanks and 26 discus.

ditto..

I have 4 'big' (~75G per tank) and 3 small (~avg about 13G) tanks right now (volume doesn't come near Pat's though). I had 18 Discus but I downsized and I only have 9 now.

I was just looking at some CL to buy some more dual stands (I don't feel like building) for 29-55G tank.

[ericatdallas]

Oh, I forgot my 40G :P but like the 3 small ones, they aren't mean for discus so probably shouldn't count.

[moon_knight1971]

John, your post early on about newbies with planted tanks ending up in the disease section made me laugh because it's true. I was one those newbies at one point...trying to power feed BH to my juvies in my planted discus tank. It was a ton of work making sure I kept the tank spotless and eventually I got burned out and starting cutting back on WC's. It only got worse after that. As we both know, cutting back on WC's is typically never a good thing. I'm sure there are some exceptional people out there that would never get burned out, but I'm not one of them.

I know keep a small group of discus and manage just one large discus tank in my fish room. I don't bother with juvies so that most of the hard work has been done for me. My method of keeping a smaller group of less demanding discus in a large tank (125G) allows me more time between WC's. As winter approaches, I've been toying with the idea of adding more discus knowing full well that would increase the need for more WC's. There's just no way around that. That's why I haven't pulled the trigger on a purchase yet.


Words of wisdom....

Joey!

[Orange Crush]

So it sounds like everyone is saying it is just a matter of how much work you are willing to do. A lot or a lot more :)

[Skip]

So it sounds like everyone is saying it is just a matter of how much work you are willing to do. A lot or a lot more :)

DING DING DING!

[nc0gnet0]

One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is If yu do choose to go with a planted tank, you will also need a QT tank, with enough volue to house all the discus you keep in the planted tank. While raising juveniles in a planted tank is hard, teating sick fish in a planted tank is dam near impossible.

[Orange Crush]

Why is it so impossible to treat in a planted tank?

[Skip]

Why is it so impossible to treat in a planted tank?

its not.. but some Meds will Kill the Plants and you want your tank to be a sterile as possible.. would you like to have open hear surgery outside in your garden?

[ZX10R]

I grew out all the juvies I have bought the last two years in tanks with substrate and driftwood. Would I do it again HECK NO way to much work cleaning the substrate all the time because of the amount of food I was feeding them. Now that I have been keeping discus for two years I would go BB for juvies so much easier to control WC and the amount of time you spend cleaning. I was feeding my juvies 4-6 times a day and a lot of that food would settle down in the substrate causing bad water conditions. I couldn't believe how much crap I would vacuum out of the substrate each time I cleaned. I downsized to just one 120 gallon tank with pool filter sand and I hate it. I have been slowly sucking the sand out every time I clean and after that I am keeping it BB sick of trying to keep it clean all the time.

[ShinShin]

BB tanks are just plain better for the discus, period. Nothing to do with work, but discus health. When newcomers quit arguing with veteran discus keepers, maybe then they can raise healthy, quality discus. I have suggested for the last 10-12 years on the forums for newcomers buy some GD books and read them. Read what Wattley, Degen, Quarels, Schmidt-Focke and the rest of the pioneers of discus keeping have done, not someone who wants to keep Barbie dolls and crap in there tanks.

[Orange Crush]

Oooooo, I can put barbie dolls and crap in my tank?!!! I'm going to the toy store first thing in the morning!

[judy]

yeh, really. bizarre. out-wierds clown puke gravel. that has to be a troll.

[LizStreithorst]

I've never had a Barbie doll in my tanks, but I once used an interesting object as a breeding cone. I'll tell you about it at NADA.


BB tanks are just plain better for the discus, period. Nothing to do with work, but discus health. When newcomers quit arguing with veteran discus keepers, maybe then they can raise healthy, quality discus. I have suggested for the last 10-12 years on the forums for newcomers buy some GD books and read them. Read what Wattley, Degen, Quarels, Schmidt-Focke and the rest of the pioneers of discus keeping have done, not someone who wants to keep Barbie dolls and crap in there tanks.

[Chad Hughes]

I just read through all 3 pages of this thread and find it all very interesting. It's amazing how differently people look at this hobby.

I also glanced through the disease section to see what sort of trends I could uncover between BB and "other than BB" tanks in regard to illness. I realize that the data may be skewed due to the fact that this site is primarily BB dedicated discus entusiasts. What I noticed after lookin through a couple hundred threads is that most disease is occurring in BB tanks. Again, I realize that there are not too many planted tank/substrate discus folks on here and that's why the disease section shows mostly BB tank illness. The planted/substrate data is actually missing becuase very few do it.

That being said, Planted tanks can be great with discus but there are a few things that you need to be willing to accept.

1. Planted tanks must be understood before understanding discus (the discus are the easy part).

2. Planted tanks are way more work than a BB tank (not for those that just want to remove water and refill).

3. Refer to #1. Understanding whater chemistry, filtration, plant nutrients, lighting and balance are a MUST!!!!

Here's a link to my SD album (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/album.php?albumid=202&attachmentid=61941)and a picture of a discus tank that I had in my dining room for a few years. The tank was rather densly planted, was on the high light end, CO2 injected, canister and wet/dry filtered and was large. At one point this tank held 20+ discus. Was it easy? NO. Was it beautiful? YES! Was it my only tank? I had two at the time, both planted. You can read all about the second tank here (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?170-avionics30-(Chad-H)).

ALL of the discus in these tanks began their existance under my care at 2.5-3" and never became ill or died. Since the days of a couple of display tanks in the house, I've expanded a bit. In fact, I don't have ANY tanks in the house anymore. The fish house takes enough of my time. Taking care of 200-300 discus and going through 500~1000 gallons of water daily is a much different situation. I'd never dream of having to maintain planted tanks on that scale. To be honest, I can clean 30 BB tanks in an hour vice a single 150 gallon planted tank in 4 hours.

TO THE OP:

The reason that most will recommend a BB tank to you and others new to discus is for one simple reason. There are only a couple of things that you can screw up. It's either going to be your water or a quarantine (mixing discus from different sources) issue. If you don't add discus to the tank from two+ sources without QT and change the water at least every week or more (stocking densities and feeding apply here), your success rate will increase. This is just the bare minimum to keeping them alive and well. BB tanks still produce ill discus but it's not the fact that the tank is BB that causes the illness. It's operator error. There are still things that you can do/go wrong. There are infinately more things that can go wrong with a planted tank + discus.

Anyway, it's not that it cannot be done or that it's a sure fire way to kill your fish. It's just that you really have to know what you're doing.

Since I've successfully done both, I thought I would share.

Just my $.02 :D

[Chicago Discus]

I agree with most people on this issue years ago when I started keeping discus I started with a planted tank and Not much understanding with keeping discus. Even though I fed pretty good I didn't do enough water changes in the tank and I ended up with some stunted fish. They were heathy but I just didn't do what was best for those juv. today I would never grow discus out in a planted tank. There are way to many variables to worry about...........Josie my 2 cents

[Sean Buehrle]

I just read through all 3 pages of this thread and find it all very interesting. It's amazing how differently people look at this hobby.

I also glanced through the disease section to see what sort of trends I could uncover between BB and "other than BB" tanks in regard to illness. I realize that the data may be skewed due to the fact that this site is primarily BB dedicated discus entusiasts. What I noticed after lookin through a couple hundred threads is that most disease is occurring in BB tanks. Again, I realize that there are not too many planted tank/substrate discus folks on here and that's why the disease section shows mostly BB tank illness. The planted/substrate data is actually missing becuase very few do it.

That being said, Planted tanks can be great with discus but there are a few things that you need to be willing to accept.

1. Planted tanks must be understood before understanding discus (the discus are the easy part).

2. Planted tanks are way more work than a BB tank (not for those that just want to remove water and refill).

3. Refer to #1. Understanding whater chemistry, filtration, plant nutrients, lighting and balance are a MUST!!!!

Here's a link to my SD album (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/album.php?albumid=202&attachmentid=61941)and a picture of a discus tank that I had in my dining room for a few years. The tank was rather densly planted, was on the high light end, CO2 injected, canister and wet/dry filtered and was large. At one point this tank held 20+ discus. Was it easy? NO. Was it beautiful? YES! Was it my only tank? I had two at the time, both planted. You can read all about the second tank here (http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?170-avionics30-(Chad-H)).

ALL of the discus in these tanks began their existance under my care at 2.5-3" and never became ill or died. Since the days of a couple of display tanks in the house, I've expanded a bit. In fact, I don't have ANY tanks in the house anymore. The fish house takes enough of my time. Taking care of 200-300 discus and going through 500~1000 gallons of water daily is a much different situation. I'd never dream of having to maintain planted tanks on that scale. To be honest, I can clean 30 BB tanks in an hour vice a single 150 gallon planted tank in 4 hours.

TO THE OP:

The reason that most will recommend a BB tank to you and others new to discus is for one simple reason. There are only a couple of things that you can screw up. It's either going to be your water or a quarantine (mixing discus from different sources) issue. If you don't add discus to the tank from two+ sources without QT and change the water at least every week or more (stocking densities and feeding apply here), your success rate will increase. This is just the bare minimum to keeping them alive and well. BB tanks still produce ill discus but it's not the fact that the tank is BB that causes the illness. It's operator error. There are still things that you can do/go wrong. There are infinately more things that can go wrong with a planted tank + discus.

Anyway, it's not that it cannot be done or that it's a sure fire way to kill your fish. It's just that you really have to know what you're doing.

Since I've successfully done both, I thought I would share.

Just my $.02 :D

In regards to your finding that so many people that post in the disease and meds section are keeping bb tanks.

I would be willing to bet if we were to go through those posts that we would find that a large percentage of those people had purchased a sick fish and had a short time of discus keeping experience.

I watch those posts daily and it's always the same old story.

Just purchased a so and so, tank mates galore, no quarantine. Can't even list water perameters and have been doing a 30 percent water change weekly.

Not arguing with ya, it's what I've seen in there time and time again.

[Chad Hughes]

Couldn't agree with you more! SOOO many factors.

[nc0gnet0]

I didn't mean to imply that planted tanke were the cause of illness, rather that should the discus in the planted tank becoe ill, the DOC, Fertilizers, substrate, etc will render many (if not most) medications innefective. Trying to get rid of parasites out of a planted tank? Good luck!

So, to the OP, if your going to try a planted tank, you will need a second tank to at least intially QT the fish. And I would also assume (planted tank experts correct me if I a wrong) that you would want to establish and stabilize the plants in the tank before adding discus.

Rick

[Sean Buehrle]

I've never had a Barbie doll in my tanks, but I once used an interesting object as a breeding cone. I'll tell you about it at NADA.

Got any pics ?

[LizStreithorst]

Got any pics ?

Yes, but if I posted them I would be sent away from Simply and never be allowed to return.

[jimg]

Yes, but if I posted them I would be sent away from Simply and never be allowed to return. HA! question is ....how'd they do with it?

[LizStreithorst]

It looked absoulutely killer, but it turned out to be toxic so I had to remove it.

[nc0gnet0]

It looked absoulutely killer, but it turned out to be toxic so I had to remove it.

You were supposed to take the batteries out first........... ;)

(biting tongue) ;)

[Orange Crush]

Thanks all for your input. I have alot of experience with planted tanks both high tech and not and they are flourishing with happy singapore flower shrimp (filter shrimp), cherry shrimp and cichlids with their fry, and not a spot of algae! (Now if I could just get the damn val plants to grow up instead of reproducing :mad:). So, I'm not worried about figuring out the planted stuff just the discus stuff. If I decide to go planted I realize it will be a lot more work but I have time and money to spare. My fish tanks and caring for them is my happy place and like most of you I keep getting bigger tanks, more tanks, and upgrading the stuff I have. I respect and appreciate everyone's opinions and I will take them into consideration (unless of course the comments are rude/snarky/dismissive then I just ignore them).
I hope that I did not offend anyone with the "lazy" comment because I know massive water changes is not lazy but it does indeed sound like BB is less effort required than planted tanks for the same results which was all that I was trying to get at. I should have worded that better but I was getting frustrated that people seemed to be unwilling to say that planted tanks will work well with discus it just takes a lot more work.....
I look forward to reading and posting on Simply Discus. You gals/guys rock!

[judy]

it does indeed sound like BB is less effort required than planted tanks for the same results which was all that I was trying to get at. I should have worded that better but I was getting frustrated that people seemed to be unwilling to say that planted tanks will work well with discus it just takes a lot more work.....
I look forward to reading and posting on Simply Discus. You gals/guys rock!
Planted tanks will work well with sub-adult or adult discus, and it doesn't take a lot more work to raise juvies in a planted tank. It takes an insane amount of work.
It takes a lot of work to keep an ordinary planted discus tank.

[Orange Crush]

Not doing juvies....

[Skip]

Become a homesteader! So u can have place for ur updated pics

[Orange Crush]

????

[Skip]

U pay an a fee and u get ur own thread where u post what u want and u have mod powers.. Easier for u have own threads.. In one place

[Orange Crush]

Something to consider when I actually have some discus.....

[BaileyF]

I'd like to take the gravel out of my 55 gal, the three discus (I've had them about 9 months lost the other 3 to internal parasites sadly i didn't know what was happening till it was too late) this is my first bout with keeping discus... The ones that are left are very very skittish and hide i'm surprised they haven't injured themselves in the process...

What would be the best way to go about removing the gravel should i move the fish to a smaller tank? or will that just cause unneeded stress?

Like many i didn't realize how much more work a discus is than a normal tropical tank and my upstairs bedroom and being 7 months pregnant makes frequent water changes a challenge so i'm thinking removing the gravel will at least help target what needs to be removed,

Also i'd like to add some maybe 2 more How long after I remove the gravel should i wait to make this purchase? (i'll be ordering these from an online dealer as the store near me feeds live worms and i really don't want to go threw the parasite situation again, it was agonizing watching the fish basically starve themselves)

I have one bio sponge i'm running a back of the tank filter with bio wheels seeing i'm removing the gravel should i add some other type of bio filter to make up for the good bacteria that will be removed with the gravel?

Thank you in advance for suggestions and sharing your knowledge

[Orange Crush]

Welcome to SD BaileyF!
I cannot answer your question and you will probably not get many responses posting a new question on somone elses thread, it tends to get burried. Also, it detracts from the original poster getting answers to their own question. :)

As to posting your own thread: on the main forum page find the catagory that best fits your question (not someones thread) and click on it. In the upper left hand corner there is a blue button that says "post new thread", click on that and put a title that will let people know what your topic is and then write your question

[BaileyF]

thanks i figured it was about the same topic but i also didn't see there were 7 pages of posts till i just finished reading them all just now!



Welcome to SD BaileyF!
I cannot answer your question and you will probably not get many responses posting a new question on somone elses thread, it tends to get burried. Also, it detracts from the original poster getting answers to their own question. :)

As to posting your own thread: on the main forum page find the catagory that best fits your question (not someones thread) and click on it. In the upper left hand corner there is a blue button that says "post new thread", click on that and put a title that will let people know what your topic is and then write your question

[Rudustin]

I have a tank that is bare bottomed but is also planted in the crevices of a resin based rock formation. I simply poked the plant(swords)roots in the holes in the fake rock and still keep the the bottom bare. It looks great. You can have both!

[yim11]

I wanted a planted tank, so I ignored the advice I read here and threw 2.5 inch juvies into a newly planted tank. I figured daily water changes weren't really necessary and the people on this forum were just "over the top".

After a month or so, I decided to do some daily water changes due to some illness and the behavior of the fish changed dramatically. Their appetites went up and they became way more active. In the end, I spent a year plus constantly trying to keep the tank clean and food bits out of the plants and substrate. Sometimes it almost seemed like the fish were purposefully spitting little bits of food into the plants! The discus were OK as I was constantly changing water, but the plants hated it and never really grew. My nitrates never got above 10ppm, but there was a ton of organic material floating in the tank and my guys were less active and less aggressive eaters if I ever skipped one day's water change. That's the thing, I went into the whole planted tank thing thinking it would lead to "almost no work", but it wound up being a lot more work than if I had gone BB.

Now, about 16 months into the journey, I'm more comfortable with my planted tank. I only do wcs 2-3 times a week, I only feed beefheart and other messy food before wcs and I feed less food overall. I'm happy with it now that they are adults, but there's no way that I'd ever raise juvies in a planted tank again. Never again!

As for creating a natural environment, I encourage you to read more about what their habitat actually looks like. Here's one good article:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2724

I think you'll find that the typical discus planted tank with submersed plants like swords (like the tank I have) is in no way a natural environment. I like my plants, but they are definitely in the tank for me and not the fish.

This should be a damn sticky post!

THANKS!

[ericatdallas]

This should be a damn sticky post!

THANKS!

HOLY CRAP! That's a terrific idea. An entire sticky devoted to our planted tank experiences! I know a lot of us have one and if newbies saw an ENTIRE thread versus bits and pieces everywhere, it might deter some of the posts from ever being started.

[brewmaster15]

Jim and Eric... You guys start that thread and I'll be happy to stick it...

-al

[ericatdallas]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?93624-My-Planted-Tank-Experience&p=849433#post849433

Done, maybe the title could change a little to hint at the cautionary tale?

[April]

Amazon swords...according to Oliver of below water...in all his diving in the discus biotopes...he's never seen an amazon sword in the amazon?
They don't come from there.


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