Filter Question

[Bill63SG]

I've had a hard time getting away from using HOB's on all my tanks,but I've slowly but surely been taking them off my smaller ones.My question is "Whats the largest tank your running on only sponges?"I've got a 75 going,but only a pair in there,no real heavy bio-load.I use hydro 4's and 5's,two in that 75,double stacked in my other tanks.Thanks,Bill.

[jimg]

why are you getting away from hob's?
I used to use just sponges and wasn't very happy with them alone so I put hob's on every tank I have. I found they cycle faster than sponges too. My main problem with just sponges was there was always tan dust like particles all over.

[Sean Buehrle]

Hob's add a lot of oxygen to the water too, that's pretty important.

I've been buying every bio wheel power filter I see at swaps and in the classifieds.

I just don't use the filter pads, my preference .

[tmfish]

I use a HOB and a sponge filter in everyone of my tanks.

[Bill63SG]

Sean,I hear you,was doing the same.I think it was a moment of frustration.I forgot about one on one of my tanks,and when I went to clean it,well let's just say the grandkids learned some new words.I usally have one on anything 55 and up.I've got a blackboard with tank#'s and wc's and meds and which hose.My wifes the one who suggested including filter changes.Off this week,and spending most of it in the basement.Thanks guys.

[Sean Buehrle]

Sean,I hear you,was doing the same.I think it was a moment of frustration.I forgot about one on one of my tanks,and when I went to clean it,well let's just say the grandkids learned some new words.I usally have one on anything 55 and up.I've got a blackboard with tank#'s and wc's and meds and which hose.My wifes the one who suggested including filter changes.Off this week,and spending most of it in the basement.Thanks guys.

A black board to keep track of stuff?

LOL

Your as weird as me hahaha.

I have colored tape on my hoses so I don't get em mixed up.

I might get a black board, that's a good idea. At least it'll make it look like I know what I'm doin :)

[Bill63SG]

A black board to keep track of stuff?

LOL

Your as weird as me hahaha.

I have colored tape on my hoses so I don't get em mixed up.
At least it'll make it look like I know what I'm doin :)My hose's are numbered.It started with a new job,longer hours,farther away.My wife offered to do some water changes.Long story short,she didnt know a BD from a SS,I numbered the tanks,Blackboard is # 1-10,and in each square is which hose,last wc,so on,The funny thing is since she's been doing it,and dosen't want to miss a wc,my fish have never looked better.I think I'm like a golfer who has all the right equipment,expensive,so I must know what I'm doing,until you see me golf,lol.

[ShinShin]

I only use sponge filters. I have tanks up to 100 gal. Sponge filters adequately supply oxygen to any sized tank you have. HOB's nor canisters are needed for this purpose. Got a 300 gal tank? Several large single stack Hydros will work just fine. Surface agitation is easily provided by a steay, strong air bubble stream from these sponge filters.


Mat

[Bill63SG]

Thanks Matt,that ansewers my actual question which I seemed to have lost track of.The fish in question are in a 75,soon to be moved this week to a 135.Two double stacked hydro 5's.When all the crap came out of the emperor,due to my neglegince,I was thinking straight sponges,what you see is what you get.I will probably keep the HOB to the move on the 135,keeping track on the chalk board.Just wanted to explore other options.

[ExReefer]

Just a thought and a little off topic, but I wonder how much bio filtration HOB's really produce. The water flow is so fast through an AC110 that the contact time with the good bacteria is very brief.

[nc0gnet0]

Just a thought and a little off topic, but I wonder how much bio filtration HOB's really produce. The water flow is so fast through an AC110 that the contact time with the good bacteria is very brief.

But the water cycles through it more frequently so it all comes out in the wash.

[ExReefer]

But the water cycles through it more frequently so it all comes out in the wash.

I suppose that's true. I was just reading into the hype on the Eheim canisters that talk about how they purposely flow less than other brands to increase contact time with the bio rock. I'm been debating about adding another AC110 to my 125 or adding an Eheim 2075. The Eheim holds a ton of bio rock compared to the AC110. This is for a show tank so I want to eliminate my sponge filters.

[NutMeg]

I totally keep a record of what I do to my discus tank! One of those white legal pads, put the date in the left margin and write what I did in the body.
Today, 12/19/11 was a 50% H2O change. According to my records, I should do a filter media change next month :) It helps a lot actually

[jimg]

Just a thought and a little off topic, but I wonder how much bio filtration HOB's really produce. The water flow is so fast through an AC110 that the contact time with the good bacteria is very brief.I do/have done a lot of fish less cycling and found all the time the hob's cycle much faster.

[Cevoe]

I use both on all of my tanks but have also been thinking about going either sponges only or at least downsizing the sizes and quantities of HOB on each tank.
I am currently over-filtered and have been doing a cleaning rotation between the two...one week or so the Aquaclears and the off weeks I clean up the sponges or box filters.
I have a question regarding sponges only; how is the water clarity? (Taking into consideration that I change 50-75% daily)
Also, Mat...What size and quantity of sponges per tank sizes?

[nc0gnet0]

I do/have done a lot of fish less cycling and found all the time the hob's cycle much faster.

The nitrifying bacteria could care less whether they are in a canister, sponge, or HOB. Filters with slower flow rates do tend to cycle faster, I suppose that might be do to the fact less of the bacteria is getting seperated from the media and blown in to the water column as it cycles. However, once cycled, each will contain the same size colony of bacteria assumming the same bio-load. Then the only difference will be in how much mechanical filtration each provides, with filters having higher flow rates holding the advantage.

Myself, I prefer sponges, with hot mags and magnum 350's for water polishing duties, but you can setup a decent HOB to do the same.

Rick

[jimg]

i have done it many times as proof for me. my theory is that the filter media (3 i have used are carbon,eheim substrat or matrix) plus the flow is what makes the difference over a plain sponge filter

[nc0gnet0]

I agree Jim that the flow rate does make a difference in cycle time (and perhaps the media as well). But improved cycle time does not equate to improved bio-filtration once the filter is mature (not saying that it what you implied, just clarifying).

[Cevoe]

Jim, as a for instance what are you running on a 55?

[jimg]

Jim, as a for instance what are you running on a 55? On 20's I run #5 sponge and ac 50.
on 37 and 50gal I run ac 70 with #5 sponge. on the 90's I used canisters and trickle with a #5 sponge in the tanks.
I use ac 70's on 29's many times too and sometimes i use those plastic in tank air filters with just stones(bio media)
I have also used an ac 110 on the 50 with grow-outs. I basically use whatever i have available, current (to a point anyway) never bother any of my discus. any time i ever used just sponges I get very dusty water, the more wc's the dustier the water unless it's a sponge that is very mature and looks very dirty

[Harry Marsh]

I am doing the opposite and replacing canisters with aquaclears
Easier....

[ExReefer]

I don't believe HOB's can provide anywhere near the surface area for nitrifying bacteria that a canister can offer. I also believe flow rate is too fast for good bio filtration on HOB's, but I agree that they can make up for it somewhat in turnover rate. For growing out juvies, HOB's work fine as most of us perform lots and lots of WC's. The bio filtration demands on juvie tanks is minimal with the WC's we perform. However, as discus reach the adult stage WC's are often cut back as growth as slowed with our discus (food is often cut back too, but not always). With less frequent WC's the bioload will grow and the nitrifying bacteria population will try to keep up. The nitrifying bacteria needs ample surface area in order to grow. This is where a wet/dry or large cansiter filled with bio rock can be very helpful and necessary.

[Sean Buehrle]

There's a real important factor that nobody has hit on here regarding how well any biological filter works.

Wouldn't a filter that has higher oxygen exposure outperform another filter with less?

I know surface area has a lot to do with everything but still, the size of the colony is a big factor too. So either way without oxygen the filters ability to function is hampered.

[ExReefer]

Of course oxygen does play a important role in the growth of nitrifying bacteria, but it's not the limiting factor. Surface area from inadequate filter size and type can be the limiting factor in the growth of your bio filtration.

[jimg]

canister filters do supply larger surface area but they also consume a lot of 02 which is why I never use a canister without a trickle or other aeration.
hob's provide 02 along with bio.

[Sean Buehrle]

Of course oxygen does play a important role in the growth of nitrifying bacteria, but it's not the limiting factor. Surface area from inadequate filter size and type can be the limiting factor in the growth of your bio filtration.

I think if anything would limit the growth it would be the availability of ammonia.
The colony will continue to multiply if it has nourishment to do so.

You could have enough media to cover a football field, but without the food it's just wasted space.

Without oxygen it can't do it's job.

So if you take two of the same type filters with the exact same size biological colony and run them on two different tanks, the filter on the tank with the higher oxygen level will no doubt out perform the other filter.

I believe that is why trickle filters work so well, the bacteria have an unlimited supply of oxygen.

The canister filters are limited to what oxygen the water is holding along with sponge filters and some hob's.
The bio wheel hob's should outperform the other non bio wheels because they are in a more oxygen rich environment too. But are limited by real estate and the amount of food present.

Some of this is my opinion and some is fact.

Facts being the need for oxygen and nutrients.

Another thing to consider with the amount of oxygen that water can hold is temperature.

There's so many what ifs to consider but it's all for nothing anyways if you take into consideration the amount of water your supposed to be changing.

I truly believe I could remove all my filters and rely on the water changes I'm doing to keep my fish happy :). Err healthy :) no such thing as happy .

[ExReefer]

Yup, we agree that the nitrifying bacteria needs food and oxygen to grow. And yes, the bio filtration is directly related to the size of the bioload. No question there.

Don't assume canisters cannot bring oxygen rich water to the bio media. Always point the returns towards the surface. Don't submerge the returns. This works best with a spray bar IMO.

This discussion, like many within this forum comes down to preference. I prefer to have an overabundance of bio capacity instead of and "just enough" or not enough for my bioload. I take bio capacity limitations out of the equation this way. At the end of the day, I still need remove the nitrates with WC's. There's just no way around that in a closed system.

[ExReefer]

I truly believe I could remove all my filters and rely on the water changes I'm doing to keep my fish happy :)

I think you are right about this. However, having healthy bio filter gives me piece of mind and water flow ;).