Proven pair.

[seanyuki]

The term for Proven Pair actually means............hope to hear from fellow members here.......just curious.

[yim11]

has produced wrigglers.

[Harry Marsh]

has produced wrigglers.

Agreed

[yim11]

To elaborate -

IME fish are sold one of 3 ways:

Pair (2 fish, no sex assumptions)
Confirmed (the sex of the male and female has been confirmed, maybe she laid but no male, maybe he spawned with another female, whatever the case each sex has been confirmed)
Proven (the fish have produced live offspring)

HTHs

[seanyuki]

That point I must agreed produced wrigglers...........hope to hear more.

[seanyuki]

Thanks Jim for the quick reply.



To elaborate -

IME fish are sold one of 3 ways:

Pair (2 fish, no sex assumptions)
Confirmed (the sex of the male and female has been confirmed, maybe she laid but no male, maybe he spawned with another female, whatever the case each sex has been confirmed)
Proven (the fish have produced live offspring)

HTHs

[Second Hand Pat]

Francis, thought you have having some success based on the thread title.

[seanyuki]

Hi Pat..........no concrete answer to my OP..........(a) female lay eggs(B) male fertilized the eggs(c) no fungus (d) + hrs becomes wrigglers(e) frys attaching to parents for mucus (f) parents caring the frys during that stage......that's my understanding for Proven Pair......correct me for my ignorance .

[Second Hand Pat]

Francis, sounds to me that a proven pair should have at least produced live offspring. Sounds to me you want a proven pair to have some success raising that offspring. Is that what you are thinking?

[seanyuki]

Hi Pat.......imo when a seller sells a Proven Pair(also being good parents) with pics of parents & frys being together then I will consider this a Proven Pair.......I learn this in Hong Kong while having discus there.......perhaps a bit different here.



Francis, sounds to me that a proven pair should have at least produced live offspring. Sounds to me you want a proven pair to have some success raising that offspring. Is that what you are thinking?

[Chicago Discus]

Hi Pat..........no concrete answer to my OP..........(a) female lay eggs(B) male fertilized the eggs(c) no fungus (d) + hrs becomes wrigglers(e) frys attaching to parents for mucus (f) parents caring the frys during that stage......that's my understanding for Proven Pair......correct me for my ignorance . I agree with you, a lot people try to sell discus that just have wigglers(and have not yet proven themselves)I think the word proven pair means all the way to fry in there own tank.But what you get is people saying proven when there not ..............................Josie

[Cevoe]

I don't think there is any gray area in the definition.
A proven pair is a pair that has produced wrigglers, proving that a female has produced eggs and a male has successfully fertilized them.
If a pair were to produce wrigglers and you were to artificially raise them what would that make them?

[seanyuki]

So I am totally wrong as you mentioned.


I don't think there is any gray area in the definition.
A proven pair is a pair that has produced wrigglers, proving that a female has produced eggs and a male has successfully fertilized them.
If a pair were to produce wrigglers and you were to artificially raise them what would that make them?

[H2Ochanger]

I don't think there is any gray area in the definition.
A proven pair is a pair that has produced wrigglers, proving that a female has produced eggs and a male has successfully fertilized them.
If a pair were to produce wrigglers and you were to artificially raise them what would that make them?

+1

[Second Hand Pat]

Sounds like the term proven pair means slightly different things based on locate.

[seanyuki]

Hi Chris.....raising frys the first two weeks with the parents and artificially raising the fry without the parents......tell me the frys eating the mucus from the parents is better/stronger or waste of time......just learning.

UOTE=Cevoe;835128]I don't think there is any gray area in the definition.
A proven pair is a pair that has produced wrigglers, proving that a female has produced eggs and a male has successfully fertilized them.
If a pair were to produce wrigglers and you were to artificially raise them what would that make them?[/QUOTE]

[Harry Marsh]

I don't think there is any gray area in the definition.
A proven pair is a pair that has produced wrigglers, proving that a female has produced eggs and a male has successfully fertilized them.
If a pair were to produce wrigglers and you were to artificially raise them what would that make them?


+1
In the United States, I've never heard 'proven' mean anything other than viable fry from the two
It means that both the female and the male are fertile

Otherwise, grey area everywhere, as Cevoe alludes to
Are they not proven if fungus kills the fry? (that may be poor water conditions on your own part)
Are they not proven if male, female eats them? Or they never attach? Or the filter sucks them up?
Or you suck them up in a water change?

I think any other definition doesn't make sense. But, maybe that's how it is in Hong Kong

[Jason K.]

Proven to me mean would me the pair would have to have raised fry. not just producing wriggler's... many fish may produce spawn only to eat the fry. Is this a proven pair? imo no...

[Jason K.]

I don't think there is any gray area in the definition.
A proven pair is a pair that has produced wrigglers, proving that a female has produced eggs and a male has successfully fertilized them.
If a pair were to produce wrigglers and you were to artificially raise them what would that make them?
Fertile fish....

[rdiscus]

Proven to me mean would mean the pair would have to have raised fry.

That's called "proven pair successfully raised fry"

[Jason K.]

That's called "proven pair successfully raised fry"
OK sound's good to me... You have any of these for sale???

[2075turner]

My thoughts...

Unconfirmed pair...possible male/female that show interest in each other...bowing, shaking, & possibly laid eggs without fertilization occuring
Confirmed pair...confirmed male/female that have reached the stage of wigglers.
Proven pair...confirmed male/female that have successfully carried fry on them & raised at least 1 batch of fry.

Now that more artificial raising is occurring...I would have to say you have a confirmed pair as not all pairs can successfully carry fry...example is if there is 1 parent that eats the fry.

[Jason K.]

My thoughts...

Unconfirmed pair...possible male/female that show interest in each other...bowing, shaking, & possibly laid eggs without fertilization occuring
Confirmed pair...confirmed male/female that have reached the stage of wigglers.
Proven pair...confirmed male/female that have successfully carried fry on them & raised at least 1 batch of fry.

Now that more artificial raising is occurring...I would have to say you have a confirmed pair as not all pairs can successfully carry fry...example is if there is 1 parent that eats the fry.
good example...+1 on that...

[Discus Origins]

Hi Chris.....raising frys the first two weeks with the parents and artificially raising the fry without the parents......tell me the frys eating the mucus from the parents is better/stronger or waste of time......just learning.


Francis, not sure if 'proven pair' would be different from Asia vs US. Just a side note, most of the fish raised in Asia farms are done artificially or removed from pair very early on. Does that make all those pairs 'unproven' by that definition?

Proven/Confirmed pair = they produced viable fry, ie. there is male and female in the pair of two fish

As for raising fry successfully, that would be more about parental skills but not have any bearings on if they are a 'proven pair'. So maybe you can make a case on:

Proven pair vs Good parental pair

Just like humans ;)

[Altum Nut]

IMO there will always be a conflict between what is considered a "Proven Pair" between parties.
There are breeders all over the globe that do not waste time in having fry attach to parents.
In this case, if the so-called proven pair goes up for sale that has produced hundreds if not thousands of fertile eggs but not carried fry....is it ruled that the pair is not proven.
Just my 2 cents....but I think they are a proven pair and can be sold as one.

...Ralph

[rdiscus]

My thoughts...

Unconfirmed pair...possible male/female that show interest in each other...bowing, shaking, & possibly laid eggs without fertilization occuring


It's called '2 fish' not a pair, since both male or both female do the same thing ...

[seanyuki]

H Mark......cannot compare the farms in Southeast Asia .....they remove the eggs after the male fertilizing them (business wise)............while having discus in Hong Kong in the 70's.....have seen/bought proven discus pairs in discus specialty stores in HKG ..............parents with frys (a few days old) in the same tank.....to me that's my understanding of a proven pair........just learning the term Proven Pair here in SD forum......great to have you sharing yr views about the topic.


Francis, not sure if 'proven pair' would be different from Asia vs US. Just a side note, most of the fish raised in Asia farms are done artificially or removed from pair very early on. Does that make all those pairs 'unproven' by that definition?

Proven/Confirmed pair = they produced viable fry, ie. there is male and female in the pair of two fish

As for raising fry successfully, that would be more about parental skills but not have any bearings on if they are a 'proven pair'. So maybe you can make a case on:

Proven pair vs Good parental pair

Just like humans ;)

[rdiscus]

OK sound's good to me... You have any of these for sale???

Yes ... if you want to pick up lol

[Harry Marsh]

It's called '2 fish' not a pair, since both male or both female do the same thing ...

Agreed
'Unconfirmed pair and confirmed pair' mean nothing. Pair of fish? 2 fish that swim around together?
They're proven or not. I guess you could advertise having at least one female, if you've got eggs

And if they're proven, they could be advertised as raising the fry off their backs, for an additional incentive
(at least, those are my thoughts)

[2075turner]

Well you can always have two females that deposit eggs....so should they be listed as "two fish" that are unconfirmed or confirmed?

[Harry Marsh]

Well you can always have two females that deposit eggs....so should they be listed as two fish that are unconfirmed or confirmed?

Are those not to be advertised as two females? Not unconfirmed or confirmed anything?
They're just two fish. Two female fish.
Advertising them as an unconfirmed or confirmed pair is almost misleading
You're sure they're not a viable pair: you have more information than that (that there are two females and definitely not a male)

[seanyuki]

For me being a potential buyer for a good proven pair............just me I usually ask the seller tons of questions..... has that pair has successful frys (been attached to the parents) or only spawned once or twice or just wrigglers sticking to the cone......plus other questions how old are the parents & date of the last spawn lol etc............also prices are higher when actual frys attaching to the parents(proven pair)......only sharing my views.

[rdiscus]

For me being a potential buyer for a good proven pair............just me I usually ask the seller tons of questions......
and how do you trust the seller's answers? Do you believe they tell you the true? or they just want to get their money back?

[Sean Buehrle]

Proven pair means

They are proven to be a male and female that together have produced fry.

You see people give the description of the fish all the time to give a better idea how far along or what the history behind them is.

[Mello]

Very good topic you started here Francis. I myself believe that a proven pair means that they had reached the wriggler stage. Its up to the pair how good can they take of there young. Some can be good and can be bad parents. Like for example when Hans sell pairs, he label the proven pair and the maybe pairs. The proven pairs most of the time got pictures of wrigglers on the cone.

[seanyuki]

I do not buy from any unknown sellers...........your words are quite harsh..........I follow their track history and their photos to show frys attaching to the parents as evidence to the sale......let me challenge you even you bought a good proven pair and may not lay eggs in yr tank.....it's all about luck in breeding discus........... lol bring it on dude.




and how do you trust the seller's answers? Do you believe they tell you the true? or they just want to get their money back?

[Cevoe]

[QUOTE=seanyuki;835135]Hi Chris.....raising frys the first two weeks with the parents and artificially raising the fry without the parents......tell me the frys eating the mucus from the parents is better/stronger or waste of time......just learning.

Hey, Francis.
I'm not really sure what this has to do with the original question but I would go with the fry feeding from the parents as opposed to raising them artificially.
However, I have read that rearing fry artificially does not have an adverse effect on discus growth overall. (I believe that was in Trophy Discus)
My comment about there being no gray area is a red Buick.
If a guy pulls up next to you at a traffic light in a red Buick (whether it be in the United States or Malaysia) and you think it's a red Chevy, it's still a red Buick.
I have bought proven pairs from both reputable sponsors and members here and I paid for proven pairs...a male and a female that produced wrigglers.

[seanyuki]

For example............bought 10 juvies Penang Eruptions at 4 ins ...........8 months later got 2 proven pairs out of the 10 discus ....hoping to sell the two set proven pairs for 200 bucks .


(a) Pair (1) pics with tiny frys swimming along with parents.

(b) pair (2) Pics of the pair with no frys.

same price for both set of pairs......you gonna buy Pair 1 or Pair 2?

Chris.....I also got the book Trophy discus by Dick Au......page 57.....quote .....finally another concern is that discus fry when raised artificially are weaker and do not grow as fast.....it's true that discus fry grow faster while being fed by the parents since they have a constant food source......his first book page 80 safely remove the frys after 5 days feeding on the parents....longer than 3 weeks may stress the parents......so artificially rearing is also suggested in his second book.

[yim11]

I understand your example but for me personally I'm going to pick the pair that look the best to me. The fry are just in the way in the pic to see the fish LOL.

[seanyuki]

That's true Jim.....imo even parents with frys in pics may not produce eggs/frys after buying them......

[Discus-Hans]

and how do you trust the seller's answers? Do you believe they tell you the true? or they just want to get their money back?

wanted to answer this, but I think I don't, just this: if you are in the business for the long run, not a good idea.

Just got a call from some one last week.
How long does it take for a pair to start spawning............. talked a little more, he bought a PAIR............ 2.5" How the heck you know it's a pair????? Seller told they were always swimming together, it must be a pair..............

For me, a pair, a male and female, spawned, had fry = a pair.

Also remember, a pair, has raised fry batch after batch on the sides etc etc after shipping, into your tank and never get fry again........... it all is possible.

Hans

[Harry Marsh]

For me, a pair, a male and female, spawned, had fry = a pair.

Also remember, a pair, has raised fry batch after batch on the sides etc etc after shipping, into your tank and never get fry again........... it all is possible.

Hans

The force, the Hans, has spoken


Good point as well. Different water conditions, different tank, different food

Proven meaning....that the person is buying a fertile male and a fertile female makes the most sense

The other variables could or could not prevent fungus, wigglers, attachment, etc etc etc
No guarantees other than a fertile male and female

Makes most sense, not misleading, etc

[Moon]

How about "mated pair" for a pair that had eggs and hatched.
"Proven pair" that raised fry on their backs.