New LED lights

[architect1]

I have been looking for an affordable way to grow plants in my tank with out using florescent or dealing with big al's. I Used 100 watt comparable energy efficient light that twists I forget the name so please excuse me. lol

I have been using them for about 2 years and get the same growth as the regular hood lights. Now the light that I just bought because I have a store credit at a local lighting shop is an northern star LED lamp PAR38 model 80462 12W 120V FL/NFL. Now there not yellow there a cool white and the guy at the store said there about 5000+ kelvin and 900 lumen, not 100% sure which one. My question is, will these lights work? Or did i just waste 80$? LOL

[Skip]

Par 38 is what reefers use for corals..

[architect1]

OH no, that's not a good thing is it? heres a pic and the web site. http://www.awlight.com/product.asp?p...ducts&id=bu702

[Skip]

If its good for corals.. It will be fine for plants.. U may need to play with distance off surface.. Remember it has a narrow beam of light

[architect1]

Oh ok thats not so scary yeah I bought 1 to see before I bought the other 2 Its for a 100g tall and I have it a 1 foot or a foot and a half off the top of the glass.

Now what kind of growth would i see? is it a good light? Have you used them?

[Orange Crush]

Some experts have said that LED is good for plants others have said it is not. I think the jury is still out on long term use of LED with plants since it is relatively new to the market.

Let us know how it goes if you buy it.

If corals are animals and plants are well, plants; I wonder how what is good for one is good enough for the other in terms of wavelength? I heard actinic is not good for plant photosynthesis.

[architect1]

Well I bought the light and its for fresh water, and the quality is amazing, but I have only had it on for 4 hours. I have been looking on reef tank forums and planted tank forums and people have been saying good things about them, but most of the lighting there using is diy systems. Mines an actual bulb. I'm just trying to see or find out how good the bulb I have. There are also floresnt lights t5 t8 and t12 that are led, and there like 40$ on sale. Which in my books is way better then a fish store lighting system.

[architect1]

I have to ask? I have read about the kelvin spectrum, and notice between 5000 and 10000 are good. Which I new for some time, but I'm starting to think you need 2 to 3 spectrum of light for growth and human eye? is that true? or can you grown plants under one spectrum?

[ghurlag]

architect1, I'm a "reefer" and have been studying LEDs for the past 2 years, and run an AI Sol over my 40 gallon breeder mixed reef. Over a refugium in a reef sump, the color spectrum one looks for is between 5,000K and 7,000K. Most "daylight" style bulbs run at 6,500K.

PAR38 is the form factor of the bulb. The form factor itself is completely application agnostic. You typically see these bulbs used in can lights (recessed ceiling lights) or some outdoor spotlight fixtures.

I have read that freshwater plants have basically the same light spectrum requirements. I have a planted 20 gallon high that I just purchased as a whole package a couple weeks ago. I haven't changed the lighting over yet, but I will be looking into LEDs falling into the above listed spectrum.

I'm willing to bet that the beam off your PAR38 is fairly focused, which will give you a cool shimmer effect, but could be a little harsh for your plants. That's probably your biggest concern.

The plants will grow just fine under anything in the Kelvin range you already found. Beyond that, you are looking for color temps that will make the colors of your fish "pop", and in your application they are more aesthetic than anything else.

I hope this helps. As a hardcore "reefer", one has to learn quite a bit about lighting to get the desired results.

[architect1]

Yeah what you said all makes sense and thank you for the post it actually answered a lot of the doubt/ concerns I had about the light.
So basically any light will work as long as its in the 5000-7000k kelvin spectrum. The rest is for visual effect to the human eye? is this all correct?

Also when you said the part about my light an it being harsh, do you mean due to it being focused I'm going to have to have it a little higher then say other types of light? If so i have it at about 14" above the top of the glass. I just don't want to have a 80$ bulb that isnt going to grow the plants lol. I also seen some information on the LED bulb lights that go up to 20,000k for the salt water plants. something you might already know or be interested in http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=269622&st=0 Hope this might help you.

when I originally started this post and pasted this same post on reef forum and planted tank forum, i started digging and once i started to read more I was very worried that the light I had wasn't going to do it. Have any other suggestions or comments please tell me more. I do like to learn.

[ghurlag]

architect1, I got your PM, and here I am :)

Strictly speaking, if the spectrum is above 5,000K, and below 7,000K, it will grow most plants really well. Anything above or below those ranges, will be less effective, depending on how far out of that range it is. For instance, on my refugium, I used to have a 6,500K CFL spotlight. It did its job really well. I replaced it with a PAR30 LED (similar form factor to the PAR38, just a little smaller). The LED light has a spectrum of 2,700K, if I remember correctly. Although not ideal, the chaetomorpha (a macro algae) I have in there hasn't seemed to mind a bit.

Other considerations are the lumens, which you said are around 900, and the focus of the beam. It sounds like you have the bulb up high enough to give the tank good coverage. Keep in mind that low-tech freshwater setups (no CO2 or massive amounts of fertilizers) will not need anywhere near the light intensity that corals from closer to the equator require.

Now, here's the fun part. The right lighting depends on the depth of your tank, the type of plants you keep, the clarity of the water, the length of the photo period (how long you keep the lights on), and an untold number of "magical" factors that we humans still don't quite get. Whether CFLs, T5s, MHs, or LEDs, you, as the aquarist, have to find out what works best with your tank and your "style". LEDs are still fairly new to the market, but I have heard a lot more good than bad, especially on the reef side of things. Only time will tell if all the claims of lower energy consumption coupled with longevity of life translate into a long-term success.

Basically, with the purchase of the LED bulb, you have just agreed to be an experiment. The best you can do is observe the changes in the tank, and only slowly tweak things, unless there is an obvious system-wide reaction that jeopardizes the whole tank. I think you'll find the LED to be just another light source (albeit a good one in my opinion). It's not voodoo. Keep us posted!

[architect1]

Impressive, did you see the led link i attached go there theres tons more lighting types there for coral's also I found out just recent there t5 and t2 and even t8 led light tubs, shocked but amazing at 50000 hours of lighting.

My tank is 100g tall. so its 60"x18"x30" it has large vals and broad leaf sword, which im trying to stop the leafs from turning yellow and look like skeleton which i hear is lack of nutrients, but soil is potting soil with a 1" layer of crush course granite. I do have 2 fert tabs 2" away from the roots. Now i do want another step type plant and maybe anubila or Anubis what ever its called ill have to look. But nothing to crazy.

I forgot i have the light on for about 7 hours. so should i just observe the one led because i never got the other 2 due to not having money. and the one led is on the sword.

[Darrell Ward]

Good luck with it. I'm sold on using 70 watt, 6500K double ended MHs for 30" deep tanks. Something you might consider if it doesn't work out as you would like. The fixtures with ballast online are $100 each, and the bulbs are $20.

[architect1]

so is that watt per gallon rule even true or applicable? it always came down to never having the money for lights. and if i totaled the amount of money spent i could of had real good lighting from like coral life and what not.

If i knew now what i know about tanks id rather a wider tank then deeper.

[ghurlag]

Watts per gallon is drastically different for LEDs. It comes down to knowing the lumens more than the wattage. Unfortunately, I'm not immediately familiar with the lumens you would need. If I don't reply with more information by the end of the weekend, ping me again, and I'll see what I come up with. I'll be leaving the house soon and strarting the holiday festivities :)

[architect1]

Yeah your a great help Ill know in a couple days how well the sword likes the led light. Thank you again happy holidays and have a merry Christmas.

[ghurlag]

Merry Christmas to you, too!

[Kalyx]

I bought an LED light setup not long ago, and was very disappointed. I took it back and went back to florescents..

[Doug Mendlik]

I am a reefer and I use Apollo LED's........AWESOME!!!!

I have colors I have only dreamed about

[AngryBird]

Do you have a picture of your freshwater tank and the led light you have on it?


architect1, I got your PM, and here I am :)

Strictly speaking, if the spectrum is above 5,000K, and below 7,000K, it will grow most plants really well. Anything above or below those ranges, will be less effective, depending on how far out of that range it is. For instance, on my refugium, I used to have a 6,500K CFL spotlight. It did its job really well. I replaced it with a PAR30 LED (similar form factor to the PAR38, just a little smaller). The LED light has a spectrum of 2,700K, if I remember correctly. Although not ideal, the chaetomorpha (a macro algae) I have in there hasn't seemed to mind a bit.

Other considerations are the lumens, which you said are around 900, and the focus of the beam. It sounds like you have the bulb up high enough to give the tank good coverage. Keep in mind that low-tech freshwater setups (no CO2 or massive amounts of fertilizers) will not need anywhere near the light intensity that corals from closer to the equator require.

Now, here's the fun part. The right lighting depends on the depth of your tank, the type of plants you keep, the clarity of the water, the length of the photo period (how long you keep the lights on), and an untold number of "magical" factors that we humans still don't quite get. Whether CFLs, T5s, MHs, or LEDs, you, as the aquarist, have to find out what works best with your tank and your "style". LEDs are still fairly new to the market, but I have heard a lot more good than bad, especially on the reef side of things. Only time will tell if all the claims of lower energy consumption coupled with longevity of life translate into a long-term success.

Basically, with the purchase of the LED bulb, you have just agreed to be an experiment. The best you can do is observe the changes in the tank, and only slowly tweak things, unless there is an obvious system-wide reaction that jeopardizes the whole tank. I think you'll find the LED to be just another light source (albeit a good one in my opinion). It's not voodoo. Keep us posted!

[architect1]

I tired to take the pics with both bulbs, the florescent and the led. But the camera doesn't do a good picture.

Now I have had the bulb in for a week, and the swords new leafs growth is about half a inch a day. but from what i see the plant is about 7 inch in total were it use to be 23 inches tall. Now is the light doing its job with the growth I've been seeing?

about 6-7 weeks ago, I had a huge algae brake out so I reduced the amount of light that was going to the tank. so instead of 8-9 hours I went to 6-7 hours. The sword, was growing a lot like it is now, and was about 23 inches tall. then once the algae died, I had to deal with the leaves turning yellow. I put the lights on for 8 hours and got a couple of algae eaters. My other concern now is will the sword start growing like it was, and the leaves not turn yellow. Now they live in +3" of potting soil, and real course stone, I also added 2 fert tabs about 2.5" away from it. My question is how do i maximize my swords growth again and maintain its health.

Hey i found this light would this be better for use of plant growth? seems it has everything and decent pricing http://www.amazon.com/Dimmable-Power-Par38-Aquarium-Corals/dp/B004KW1T2C?tag=5336653614-20
or this one
http://www.rapidled.com/servlet/the-141/%28New%29-7-LED-PAR38/Detail

[Orange Crush]

I know you want LED lights but I am still not convinced that they are appropriate for freshwater plants. Also stay away from the ones meant for corals as your primary light source. I have the http://www.amazon.com/Coralife-08607-Aqualight-Fixture-48-Inch/dp/B0049PU8BI/ref=sr_1_9?ie=UTF8&qid=1325535093&sr=8-9. It is meant for corals but I took out the actinic bulbs and replaced them with plant bulbs. The other 2 bulbs that come with the light are 10,000K and are really pretty white light but on the days that I use those I get very little plant growth, the days I use the plant bulbs my plants grow. It has 4 bulbs but you can have one of the sets of 2 bulbs on or all 4 at once.
There is a reason that they make different types of bulbs, it is because some work best for plants, some for corals and others to show the colors of your fish. Stick with plant bulbs.
I too wanted LED lights but I knew that they may not work for plants which is why I bought the light that I did. At night I run the LED and it creates a moonlight effect in my tank that is very pretty without creating a light/CO2/nutrient imbalance in my tank.
Actinic lights are very good at growing blue/green algae not plants.
You can run your light longer but you have to make sure that everything else is in balance. I run my lights for 12 hours a day but I have no algae.

[architect1]

Thank you orange and I totally agree and understand what your saying, only problem is im in school and dont have the 600$ for the lighting I would need, also i do want CO2 in my tank so Im waiting till I have the money.
I wanted the lights you sent me to but id need 2 of them because I have a 6' long tank. I was at big als fish supplies today to ask the same very questions you had also answered. The reason I put them 2 links up is because there a real great price and I also wanted the blue aspect to act as a moon light. Now, when I was also at the fish store the guy said LED wasn't up to the job because there arn't 1 watt light bulbs yet. LOL well I shocked him when I told him that mine are 1 watt.

Now I have changed my lights from being on from 8 hours to 10 hours. So I will tell you shortly if i got a algae problem.

[ghurlag]

I agree that you don't want to purchase designed-for-reef lights to put over your tank. A. They are WAY too bright, and B. They are the wrong color spectrum (as I discussed at length a couple weeks ago). I think, however, that the right LED fixture emitting the right color spectrum would perform well. T5 fluorescent fixtures are a much better understood lighting solution at this point, so will be easier to tune to your needs.

In the reefing world, LEDs work fairly well as a direct placement for Metal Halides (although you will STILL find people arguing this point, even though I have personally used both, and seen spectacular results). Metal Halides are typically used in high-tech planted setups, are they not? If that's the case, you will need to be cautious.

I think I discussed previously that watts per gallon isn't a 100% fail safe method in determine the right LED combination. A lumen meter might work fairly well for you, or even a PAR meter; but again, we're getting away from what I know about the needs of freshwater plants...

Orange Crush, do you have any thoughts on what light intensity is desired?

[architect1]

Yeah i wanted the florescent in the coral life. I remember my 55 gallon tank I had the regular hood that came with the tank and I had 3 swords in the tank and they grew really well. I think 10000k lighting not sure if it was that or 12000k not sure 100% Its been a long time. Now that was just 2 bulbs so with what you said with watt per gallon rule is kinda like a horse to a car in today's lighting.

I don't get why people use the Metal halides light seem kinda extreme and very deadly to the power bill. also doesn't the Halides have a short life? I also seen a planted tank on planted tank forums doing a fresh water tank and he also used the Halides for his 260g tank i think it was.

I seen a few reef tanks, with the Par lights that I previously showed. And they used a few. I have only 3 screw in bulb spots above my tank. SO its not going to be an extreme amount of lights. My reasoning is if my florescent energy savers can grow plants, why cant the led. Now with you talking about the desired intensity, I know the light I have is an intensity direct light. But I remember looking on a form, they were rating the led lights by pars. which flew totally over my head and didn't really understand.

[architect1]

finally heres a pic of the contrast between the 2 lights.

floresent energy saver on the left
LED par 38 On the right

[Orange Crush]

The intensity really depends on what type of plants you have in your tank. Some require more light than others. One of my tanks has java moss, java fern, anubas and I use one of those cheap strip lights with a 6,500K bulb and the plants are doing great. Intensity is actually a rather complicated question if you want to get really technical if you do here are 3 links that can help with that.... http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/76119-why-small-tanks-need-more-watts.html
http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Basics-to-starting-a-Planted-Tank/4/
http://rexgrigg.com/mlt.html
The simple answer is 1-2 watts per gal is low, 2-3 w/g is med, 3+ w/g is high :D

architect1 - it is very easy to make your own CO2. You just need a disposable water bottle, airline tubing, silicone sealant, white sugar, activated yeast and baking powder.

[Darrell Ward]

Yeah i wanted the florescent in the coral life. I remember my 55 gallon tank I had the regular hood that came with the tank and I had 3 swords in the tank and they grew really well. I think 10000k lighting not sure if it was that or 12000k not sure 100% Its been a long time. Now that was just 2 bulbs so with what you said with watt per gallon rule is kinda like a horse to a car in today's lighting.

I don't get why people use the Metal halides light seem kinda extreme and very deadly to the power bill. also doesn't the Halides have a short life? I also seen a planted tank on planted tank forums doing a fresh water tank and he also used the Halides for his 260g tank i think it was.

I seen a few reef tanks, with the Par lights that I previously showed. And they used a few. I have only 3 screw in bulb spots above my tank. SO its not going to be an extreme amount of lights. My reasoning is if my florescent energy savers can grow plants, why cant the led. Now with you talking about the desired intensity, I know the light I have is an intensity direct light. But I remember looking on a form, they were rating the led lights by pars. which flew totally over my head and didn't really understand.

So why do you think 70 watts of MH is extreme, but a regular double bulb hood (80 watts total, with 2, 40 watt, four ft. bulbs) is not, and why would it use more electric? This makes no sense. No, they do not have a short life, at least not the lower powered ones anyway. I have never used the high powered ones.

[architect1]

Wow i need to read a lot. it be nice to have friends close by that are interested in the same hobbies and also to bounce ideas around. I do remember the watts per tanks rule because way back when when i had my first tank. But wow 3+ ill need to read them forums u posted.

Ahhh i see what you mean I have low level of light plants, just some vals, and the amazon sword. Id love a havy planted tank but in time, Im just trying to get the easy plants flourishing on a poor mans budget.

The co2 I've seen and read on here or on a planted tank forum and was really intrigued by it, so if i did the co 2 how do u regulate it? also would you just put the pipe in the water? or run it into a air pump pipe or even through ur canister?

[architect1]

So why do you think 70 watts of MH is extreme, but a regular double bulb hood (80 watts total, with 2, 40 watt, four ft. bulbs) is not, and why would it use more electric? This makes no sense. No, they do not have a short life, at least not the lower powered ones anyway. I have never used the high powered ones.

Only reason I said mh was a lot is I see the bulbs are like 300 watt bulbs verses a 40 watt bulb, And yeah if what you said it would be totally comparable. I just never thought mh would be that low. AT the store there all 100w and up so thats why i said what i said but, your right good point. How much is a mh with bulb? what is the area they cover?

[Darrell Ward]

For the fixture...http://www.hellolights.com/70w-retrofitkithqi.aspx
For bulbs...http://www.lightexports.com/servlet/the-662/70W-70-watt-6500K/Detail

I use two fixtures on a 6' tank, and one fixture on a 4' tank.

[Orange Crush]

Vals and some swords actually are more med-high light requirement plants, at least the vals and swords that I have are.
I do not regulate the CO2, it is really not that necessary unless your goal is the most increadable planted tank. My tanks are fish tanks with plants in them so my main focus is the health of the fish but my plants are healthy, grow well and look pretty too. Plants do release CO2 not O2 at night which can make your pH fluctuate depending on your water but it has never been a problem for me. Once you set up the CO2 take a pH reading in the evening after the lights have been on for awhile and then again in the morning BEFORE the lights come back on. The tubing I stick into the intake of my filter so the CO2 has a chance to dissolve and not escape at the surface.

[Orange Crush]

Vals and some swords actually are more med-high light requirement plants, at least the vals and swords that I have are.
I do not regulate the CO2, it is really not that necessary unless your goal is the most increadable planted tank. My tanks are fish tanks with plants in them so my main focus is the health of the fish but my plants are healthy, grow well and look pretty too. Plants do release CO2 not O2 at night which can make your pH fluctuate depending on your water but it has never been a problem for me. Once you set up the CO2 and it is working (can take up to 3 days) take a pH reading in the evening after the lights have been on for awhile and then again in the morning BEFORE the lights come back on. If the pH fluctuation is too much then you will need to get the kind you can regulate.
The tubing I stick into the intake of my filter so the CO2 has a chance to dissolve and not escape at the surface.

[architect1]

Wow the MH isnt that bad price wise. and looks good to boot.

And the co2 sounds good. So what do i do, just connect a pipe to my intake of my canister and let it do its thing. do the checks like you said. I still come to the problem of lighting, which seeing the MH for 100$ thats pretty good.

I got a question i notice on the newest leave of my plant the tip is skeleton like and my lights have been on for 8 hours, is it because my lights arent on enough or is it not enough light in the tank? Now the plant is still growing and its not all of the leaf its just the tip. Ill update when i see a change.

[Orange Crush]

It sounds like it could be a nutrient deficency. What ferts do you use? What substrate?

I just stick the end of the airline tubing into the intake "cage" of your canister, you do not want to block it from doing it's main job of filtering the tank.

[architect1]

Well I have potting soil about 3" and also I used crushed white granite. The tabs of plant food i use sera florentte A. How long does the co2 in the bottle last?

I forgot about this guy in my area http://www.aquariumsupplies.ca/reef-optix-mogul-base-retrofit-reflector-wsocket-lamp-cord-p-5587.html heres a basic MH for 70$ would this be adiquit. also if I put this on my tank would this make it a medium light tank if i had 2 of these on my tank?

[Orange Crush]

I am not familiar with that type of fert, maybe someone else can help with that.
I find the CO2 lasts about a month but it depends on how much of the ingredients you use and in what proportion. You will either get very intense CO2 production for a short period of time, or milder CO2 production for a longer period of time. If you add more sugar and yeast, the CO2 production will be more intense, while adding less of both means it will last longer.

[architect1]

yeah the fish store pasted it on to me, and I knew i needed something. but if I did the co2 would that be enough or would i need the tablets still?

[Orange Crush]

CO2 and fert tabs are two entirely diff things. You need ferts especially if you want to avoid algae from taking over.

[Darrell Ward]

Well I have potting soil about 3" and also I used crushed white granite. The tabs of plant food i use sera florentte A. How long does the co2 in the bottle last?

I forgot about this guy in my area http://www.aquariumsupplies.ca/reef-optix-mogul-base-retrofit-reflector-wsocket-lamp-cord-p-5587.html heres a basic MH for 70$ would this be adiquit. also if I put this on my tank would this make it a medium light tank if i had 2 of these on my tank?

That fixture does not come with a ballast. You would have to buy that extra.

[architect1]

Yeah when i looked its about 60$ a pop. wow what drives these prices, If your not paying for the fixture, your paying for a ballast or the light. What lights are you using darrell?

[Darrell Ward]

Yeah when i looked its about 60$ a pop. wow what drives these prices, If your not paying for the fixture, your paying for a ballast or the light. What lights are you using darrell?
The same lights and bulbs I posted the links for in post #31.

[Darrell Ward]

Here's a picture of the 240 gal. from a few months ago....

[architect1]

Oh my god what a beautiful tank. I'm jealous there wilds arn't they? How often are you doing water changes? Is them the MH lights at the top? that you showed me from the site?

[Darrell Ward]

Yeah, all the fish in the tank are wild caught. I do 2-50% water changes per week on this tank. Yes, it has 2 of the exact 70 watt fixtures, and the 6500K bulbs I gave the links to.

[Second Hand Pat]

architect1, here's another tank lit by the 70W MH recommended by Darrell.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/230/IMG_0076.jpg

[ericatdallas]

Did anyone ask what kind of plants the OP is growing... I think that matters and more is not necessarily better and didn't see it when I browsed through.

I can really only speak on LEDs b/c I am terrible at when it comes to aquatic plants. The reason LEDs are theoreticlly better for growing is that they can be 'tuned' to target specific wavelengths that plants use for photosynthesis. Some anecdotal evidence points that even using a tuned LED may not be sufficient for optimal plant growth. They are also considered efficient b/c less heat is given off for them to emit visible light.

I can only speculate on four possible reasons:
1) The LED the person is using is NOT tuned to the specific chlorophyll type that he thinks the plant has
2) The LED specifications are a 'lie' or some other real world reason. For instance, changing the voltage of the LED can shift the wavelength bringing it out of the optimal range. Also, overheated and overdriven LEDs will emit shorter wavelengths.
3) Plants evolved to absorb the full spectrum and not just the one or two 'peak' wavelengths.
4) LEDs are so effective and providing light to plants, they are unable to compensate with available nutrients and/or are signaled to protect themself b/c they are evolved to react to times of drought or high heat. An example of this is with mosses. They evolved in low-light and moist environments so they have certain mechanisms in place to protect them in the short-term (including changing their chlorophyll content) to compensate. That change may be totaly healthy but may look like the plant is dying. Think autumn and leaf color changes....

Also, if the Kelvin rating is being used correctly, a 10,000K bulb -should- provide what the plant needs but a lot of it will be shifted in the wrong wavelengths and it will consume energy it output that is not used for photosynthesis. So a 40W 10K bulb will provide some of the light the plant needs, but maybe not in sufficient quantity for optimal growth while a 10W LED light may provide the wrong wavelength and be ineffecitve and a two 3W bulbs may provide everything the plant needs. Further, algae use this light very efficiently. It outputs in the blue spectrum very efficiently.

Not trying to overcomplicate things, but I think it goes back to "what type of plants". Most of what is said correct and are probably good guidelines to follow (especially what ghulag wrote). But I wanted to point out some of the misconceptions I've read about LEDs in other places as many people don't know about the wavelength shift of overdriven and overheated LEDs.

[Darrell Ward]

What it comes down to in the end is balance. You have to balance light with nutrients, not as easy as it sounds. To make it easy on myself, and also to make the tank as discus friendly as possible (easy to keep clean), I only use plants that do not require substrate for the roots. That means that I can tie them to driftwood, or throw them in the tank to float. They pull all the macros they need directly from the water itself, which also benifits water quality. In this way, all I have to add is micro elements, a little Seachem Flourish once a week or so takes care of this. Much, much easier than trying to balance CO2, fertz, and all that other BS with your lighting.