Seeking Advice

[Mannie Bothans]

Hi.

My name is Chris, and I live in Lexington, Kentucky.

I have a 56 Gallon (24 inches tall x 30 inches wide x 18 inches from front to back) that has just finished cycling. When I setup this tank, I didn't even think about discus at all because I thought the tank would be too small. I filled the tank up with plants, but then fell in love with discus. Right now this is my only tank and it really has a lot of plants.

I want discus so bad--- but if I can't keep discus in a way that they would thrive, I do not want to keep them at all, no matter how amazing they are.

1. I worry about the size of the tank. Everything I have read says I
need at least five discus. I do not want to breed at all. I do not
want to care for juvies that need extra attention during their
formative growing-up years. So with adults, a lot of people say that
five would be fine in a 56 gallon, but I have always been one to
rather err on the side of caution. Combine that with the fact there
is a lot of plants and substrate in there (making the free swimming
space even smaller) I just have my doubts about five. Has anyone ever
had luck with just a couple or other numbers under five?

2. I worry that I am a newbie and would benefit from a bare bottom
tank, even with adults, for many reasons. I especially worry about
water quality. Before I even considered discus, I spent a lot of
money on plants (well, not in terms of discu$-level money, but a lot
of money for somebody who works for a small nonprofit organization).
If I keep my tank planted-- like it is now, with Hygrophila difformis
(Wisteria), Ceratophyllum demursum (Hornwort), Limnophila sessiliflora
(Asian Ambulia), Pogostemon Erectus, Hygro Pinnatifida, Myriophyllum
simulans (Filigree), Echinodorus Angustifolia (Twisty Vesuvius),
Proserpinaca palustris (Mermaid Weed), Hygrophila polysperma
(Sunset/Tiger/Rosanervig), Corkscrew Vallisneria, Microsorum pteropus
(Java fern), Anubias Coffeefolia, Anubias Nana, Ludwigia Hybrid Red,
Sagittaria subulata (Dwarf Sag), Subwassertang, Marmio Algae Balls,
Pogostemon helferi, Eriocaulon Cinerum var Australia type II,
Cryptocoryne red wendtii, Marsilea quadrifolia, Flame Moss, Marsilea
minuta, a red Cryptocoryne affinis from Pahang Barat, several
Cryptocoryne keei, and a Bucephalandra brownie red-- then I worry that
there is way too much organic matter in there. I have a piece of
driftwood and a rock, but the bottom of my tank is really taken up by
1 inch layer of MTS covered by 1 inch layer of PowerSand, with a slope
in back created by a gradual increase from 0 to 5 inches of Flourite,
all covered by a 2inch layer of AquaSoil originalAmazonia/New Amazonia
(2011) mix. Right now my tank also has Amano shrimp, Crystal Red
shrimp, Taiwan Fire (Cherry) Shrimp, Malasian Trumpet Snails, and Red
Ramshorn Snails that came is as hitchhikers on the plants. The
trumpet snails do a pretty good job of keeping the substrate from
going anerobic, but the substrate itself is less than sanitary for
discus, I assume.

3. I'm currently running an Emperor 400 HOB filter and an AquaClear
50 HOB filter, and I fear that while this provides really good
filtration, it also creates a pretty substantial current in the small
tank. I am thinking about using nylons on the filter intakes to
reduce the flow, but I want the biowheels to keep turning.

4. This would be my only tank in the entire house. I am currently
doing water changes directly from the tap with a python. I'm not
aging the water with peat, heaters, or prime-- I just match the
temperature at the faucet and add the dechlor into the tubing. I want
to commit to the long term with maintenance, and I can't plumb an auto
change system with this tank and I know I couldn't haul buckets. I
worry that from-the-tap ph-variance would be routinely stress the
fish.


If I knew it was possible for the fish to thrive, I would want to get all the same sized adults, and all at the same time. This poses a huge financial hurdle for me, but I don't want to keep the fish in numbers so low that they would be unnecessarily stressed. :(

[Bill63SG]

Dude,I just glanced over it,but if your going with 5-6 adults,not sub adults,you should be fine.Keep up with 50% or more wc's 2-3 times a week and should be no problem.Anyone else?

[damba]

Agreed should work. Make sure you dont overfeed as you will struggle to clean the substrate. Your tank is good for six adults. Why not addvsome fories and tetras?

Sent from my qGT-I5800 using Tapatalk

[Orange Crush]

The amano shrimp will probably be able to not get eaten by discus but the other shrimps will be chased and eaten.
I would get another tank for QT; and maybe even a smaller 3rd tank to put some of the plants and shrimp in so the discus have more room (nano cube).
I would love to see some pics of your setup!!!!

[CrazyAngels]

You most likely will loose your shrimp. My shrimp tank is just that and about the only fish I've kept with them are cory's, which seem not to bother the shrimp at all. Good luck

[Larry Bugg]

Well I am going to have to disagree with the answers you have received. 56 gallons in general terms is acceptable for 5 to 6 adults but your situation is not general but very specific. The first issue I have is with the footprint of the tank. For this many adults the 18" debth is great but I want a 4' minimum. 30 X 18 is cramped for me and leaves very little free swimming room. Now add to that the plants. It sounds like your tank is Very Heavily Planted. I love heavily planted tanks but as you pointed out the substrate and plants decreases the volume of tank. I think your tank is too cramped for 5 or 6 adults and getting less than this is not advisable.

[Mannie Bothans]

Thanks everyone for the kind responses.

Larry, this is exactly what I was thinking. It is such a small footprint. (I also currently have driftwood in there that is also displacing free swimming area.)

The tank was purchased for two ryukin goldfish.

I was hoping that maybe a lifelong pair of adult discus would be able to get along. Is this just wishful dreaming?

Thanks,
Chris

P.S. I will try to snap a photo of the tank tonight. I have so many plants in there right now because I wanted to see which ones would thrive in my conditions (and I wanted to see which ones would be eaten by goldfish and which ones wouldn't).


Well I am going to have to disagree with the answers you have received. 56 gallons in general terms is acceptable for 5 to 6 adults but your situation is not general but very specific. The first issue I have is with the footprint of the tank. For this many adults the 18" debth is great but I want a 4' minimum. 30 X 18 is cramped for me and leaves very little free swimming room. Now add to that the plants. It sounds like your tank is Very Heavily Planted. I love heavily planted tanks but as you pointed out the substrate and plants decreases the volume of tank. I think your tank is too cramped for 5 or 6 adults and getting less than this is not advisable.

[ShinShin]

I agree with Larry. I do not think your set up is conducive for discus keeping. Too many times new discus keepers want to have the discus adapt to their current setup instead of having a discus set-up prepared for them.

Mat

[Bill63SG]

Well I am going to have to disagree with the answers you have received. 56 gallons in general terms is acceptable for 5 to 6 adults but your situation is not general but very specific. The first issue I have is with the footprint of the tank. For this many adults the 18" debth is great but I want a 4' minimum. 30 X 18 is cramped for me and leaves very little free swimming room. Now add to that the plants. It sounds like your tank is Very Heavily Planted. I love heavily planted tanks but as you pointed out the substrate and plants decreases the volume of tank. I think your tank is too cramped for 5 or 6 adults and getting less than this is not advisable.I have to agree,like I said,just glanced,looked at the gallons,not the actual footprint.

[shoveltrash]

Too many times new discus keepers want to have the discus adapt to their current setup instead of having a discus set-up prepared for them.agree with this 100%. I am guilty of this, bought 2 Discus for my community tank before finding this forum......and learned a LOT, my 20/20 hindsight is excellent LOL.
(pure dumb luck and LOTS of WCs have kept my Discus alive & thriving, even living with 3 Angels!!!)

as a noob, I'm wondering if an established adult breeding pair would do well in this tank set up? an option?

[Larry Bugg]

I was hoping that maybe a lifelong pair of adult discus would be able to get along. Is this just wishful dreaming?

Thanks,
Chris

P.S. I will try to snap a photo of the tank tonight. I have so many plants in there right now because I wanted to see which ones would thrive in my conditions (and I wanted to see which ones would be eaten by goldfish and which ones wouldn't).

Post the pictures. Would enjoy seeing it discus or not. A mated pair might be just fine in the tank but expect to pay a premium for a mated pair.

[Mannie Bothans]

I removed the driftwood, but left the rock... if I do get discus, that rock will have to go, too (too many sharp edges). But right now, the rock and the pineapple under the sea are much beloved by the shrimp.

Here it is (without the driftwood) -- http://dl.dropbox.com/u/12554833/MyTank.JPG


71275

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There was a beautiful 24-inch tall piece of driftwood where the marmio balls are now. I also removed 9/10s of my Anubias and 3/4 of my java ferns, 100% of my subwassertang, and 100% of my flame moss (it was all attached to the large piece of driftwood).

[Bill63SG]

Looks great.Just my two cents,with the dark substrate and dark background,could cause peppering in pb's.

[Mannie Bothans]

A mated pair might be just fine in the tank but expect to pay a premium for a mated pair. Now that's an idea... maybe a couple that like each other but aren't able to produce offspring.

[Mannie Bothans]

That aren't pigeons. :)

[nwehrman]

Beautiful planted tank!

One thing to consider first is what is your ph of fresh tap and ph of tank? How different are they? That will tell you the answer of do you need to age your water or not (for stress purposes)- therein answering some of your previous questions.

A pair would be gorgeous in there -- I also agree 5 is too many with the footprint of tank. Maybe a female/female pair? Hmmmm -- will let others weigh in on that (I don't have anything other than m/f pairs unless they are in a growout or pairing tank!)

[Mannie Bothans]

Good point. I might be worried about the tap ph for no reason. I'll test tonight and then post the results.

[pcsb23]

You are receiving some sound advice, all I wanted to say is that it is a really nice planted tank :)

[dawrtw]

Chris,
I live in Nicholasville just a few minutes south of you.
If you would like to see Discus in several different tanks and situations feel free to come see mine.
I have had great luck with discus in a planted, sandy, bottom as well as some in bare bottom tanks.
I purchased all my discus and angels from Kraig at Kindomcome Discus Haven here locally and use our tap water.
In two years I have only lost one fish (knock on wood). He never started eating from the time I got him.
I have since introduced a number of people to discus and they too are hooked on this beautifuf fish.
I dont do anything special but I do follow a few simple guidelines.
Am I raising quality show fish? NO Do I have some beautiful, healthy, and growing discus and angels? YES
I have been fortunated enough however to breed and even raise the fry on one or two occasions.

If you would like to come see some fish locally send me a pm and Ill send you my number and address.
Take care,

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Very nice tank.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

Chris,
I live in Nicholasville just a few minutes south of you.
If you would like to see Discus in several different tanks and situations feel free to come see mine.
I have had great luck with discus in a planted, sandy, bottom as well as some in bare bottom tanks.
I purchased all my discus and angels from Kraig at Kindomcome Discus Haven here locally and use our tap water.
In two years I have only lost one fish (knock on wood). He never started eating from the time I got him.
I have since introduced a number of people to discus and they too are hooked on this beautifuf fish.
I dont do anything special but I do follow a few simple guidelines.
Am I raising quality show fish? NO Do I have some beautiful, healthy, and growing discus and angels? YES
I have been fortunated enough however to breed and even raise the fry on one or two occasions.

If you would like to come see some fish locally send me a pm and Ill send you my number and address.
Take care,

+ 1

[discuspaul]

While your tank is not conducive to keeping discus as it is currently set up with the heavy plantings you have, there is nothing wrong with the tank footprint for keeping, say 5, or even 6, 4" discus. If you really want to keep discus, what is suggested you do is remove at least half of the remaining plants in your tank to provide some exposure at the front portion of the tank along with swimming room for the fish, and to make it significantly easier to clean and maintain the water quality needed. If you're prepared to do that & keep up with 2-3 X weekly wcs, you should enjoy discus-keeping success.

[Larry Bugg]

While your tank is not conducive to keeping discus as it is currently set up with the heavy plantings you have, there is nothing wrong with the tank footprint for keeping, say 5, or even 6, 4" discus.

I have to respectively disagree. If we were talking about a grow out tank maybe but probably not. As I understand it Mannie is not looking to replace this tank. The 4" discus would soon be adults and still in the same tank. Even if the tank were bare bottom I would still have to say that the footprint is not right for 5 or 6 adult discus. 30" in lenght just isn't long enough IMO.

[ShinShin]

Man, Chad Adams agreeing with me on the NADA forum, now me agreeing with Larry on Simply, the whole universe is in disarray. lol

I agree with Bugman on this.

Mat

[discuspaul]

I have to respectively disagree. If we were talking about a grow out tank maybe but probably not. As I understand it Mannie is not looking to replace this tank. The 4" discus would soon be adults and still in the same tank. Even if the tank were bare bottom I would still have to say that the footprint is not right for 5 or 6 adult discus. 30" in lenght just isn't long enough IMO.

On what foundation basis do you disagree ? And why do you 'respectively' disagree ? What does that mean ?
The width of the tank is fine, as is the depth, and who's to say that 30" length of tank is somehow totally unsuitable, or that 48" length is absolutely necessary, for keeping adult discus ?
Is that based on your experience ?
Opinion is fine, but your statement needs more backing than that, imho.
I don't know what your credentials are, but I've been fish-keeping for over 50 years, and have lengthy experience keeping discus - in similar conditions as what we're talking about here as well, and have seen no evidence whatsoever that adult discus need x amount of length of tank to be raised successfully.

The OP was asking a serious valid question, and I feel it is more important and pertinent to answer it in a manner that reasonably provides a solution that could and should work, rather than giving a reason why it shouldn't, without any real background to support it.
I simply mentioned 4" discus, rather than mature adults, simply for the sake of cost-saving, not for 'grow-out' purposes. Replacing his tank is not in the equation here.

[Mannie Bothans]

I feel very honored to be receiving input and advice from some extremely knowledgable and experienced folks!

Tracy, I'd love to check out your setup. Kriag, we've been playing phone tag. I'll try to give you a call again during normal daytime hours.


the whole universe is in disarray.

You guys crack me up. :D

All of the kind words and passionate advice are deeply, deeply appreciated.

Mat hit the nail on the head when noting that I was putting out feelers in an attempt to see if discus could adapt to (or even thrive in) conditions such as mine.

1. My first concern was about the best discus quantity combination relative to the size and shape of my tank. I got a great deal on the tank and it fits perfectly into a recessed nook in the wall of our main den. It is the only large, cycled tank I have right now. It was not purchased for or planted to house discus-- but let's see if I can get a consensus from the experts on the idea of having only two in there:

Is mated pair (or a pair of females, as one person suggested) something that could work? [Why or why not?]

2. My second concern was that all those plants and the aquasoil substrate particles are not the proper abode for discus (and their newbie caregiver).

Can I possibly keep it clean enough for two adult discus, or is it a lost cause for someone like me who has never kept discus before?

3. My third worry was that my Emperor 400 HOB filter and my AquaClear 50 HOB filter would produce too much of a current for discus? I want to keep that water clean, so I like the benefit of running both. If I cover the intakes with something to slow the flow a bit, would that be sufficient or would it still overpower the fish?

4. I just got an answer on my third fear. I am currently doing water changes directly from the tap with a python. Bad news. From the tap tonight, the ph was 7.2. I checked the tank, which last had a water change one week ago, and the ph was 6.0! (The kh in the tank was 1, and the gh was 18.)

Does anyone know the best place to buy a waterbarrow and pump?

[judy]

+1 on the mated pair idea. not pigeon bloods. they would fit nicely into that tank. Just remember the substrate issues and keep them fully addressed and two great big grownups would look lovely in there. They will cost an arm and a leg. But they would be beautiful.
I would continue to run both filters. I think with your water, what you want to do is large water changes twice weekly before you get the discus and make sure the tank water Ph gets up higher-- doesn't have to be 7.2 but 6.5 or so would be nice. And your Kh is too low-- a result of the plants. The heavy planting and organic wastes will also have dropped the Ph.
Bear in mind you will need to do very large water changes at least twice a week along with a thorough vacuuming on the substrate, which I would suggest you begin immediately to get the tank ready. The less organic crud there is in the substrate, the better off the discus will be. No crud at all would be ideal. Aquasoil is not terrible although it does allow for the collection of a lot of organic waste, but you will likely end up vaccing it out for the most part, unless you are very careful about the angle of the siphon tube. Plants can do well in sand with fert tabs buried near their roots.
It would be a delicate balance, but with large, frequent WCs and careful attention to a clean substrate, I think a mated pair would work beautifully... a pair in the gold or red range would really pop.

[Mannie Bothans]

Thanks Judy. The low kh makes the ph fluctuation even more painful, but a little baking soda can fix low kh. I just learned that it can take 6 months to a year for AquaSoil (Amazonia) to stop lowering the ph. I'm not as concerned about low ph as I am concerned about shocking fish with radically different ph from the tap. (It also looks like my liquid rock needs some peat to soften it up if I do end up with discus, no?)

[Orange Crush]

Peat will soften your water more and make your pH less stable.

[Mannie Bothans]

I guess I'd better go back to basics and make sure I have a proper understanding of water fundamentals! Peat lowers gh, but does it also lower kh? Or are you saying that gh also stabilizes ph? My Kh cannot afford to be any lower, but my gh is really high.

[Orange Crush]

Peat will soften your water by binding the calcium and magnesium ions while simultaneously releasing tannic and gallic acids into the water. These acids then attack the bicarbonates in the water, reducing the water's carbonate hardness and pH.

[judy]

It would help if you test the water out of your tap for its parameters-- right out of the tap and 24 hours later after you have aged some in a container with a powerhead. This will tell you a lot about the water's characteristics-- especially hardness and tendency for Ph drop.
Your Kh and Ph as it is skirts the dangerous edge of a Ph crash.

[discuspaul]

Just some food for thought for you, mannie, regarding the suggestions to keep a mated pair of discus in your tank.
The idea is just fine if your aim is to keep breeders and have them breed. As they would likely spawn, you may well be involved in keeping, housing & raising wrigglers. Be prepared for that.

Should you opt to just get an unmated random pair, or 2 males or 2 females, and whether they're juvies or adults, you should be aware you'll likely be running the risk of stressful pecking order/ bullying aggression issues by keeping just two fish.

[Mannie Bothans]

A mated pair that can't breed successfully is then my only option for two fish only-- unless Kalyx will sell me those two mated females.

[judy]

You can get a mated pair and ignore the spawn. If you have a couple of other fish in the tank, the spawn will just get eaten. Nice Sunday brunch for all inhabitants.

[discuspaul]

Even a mated pair that hasn't bred successfully many times in the past could very well get it right, sooner or later, and you'll have wrigglers.
Two 'mated' females could work if you can get them.

[discuspaul]

You can get a mated pair and ignore the spawn. If you have a couple of other fish in the tank, the spawn will just get eaten. Nice Sunday brunch for all inhabitants.

Yes, Judy, you certainly can ignore the spawn, but they'll likely keep spawning and if aggressive enough, will eventually succeed at intimidating and keeping other fish in the tank away from some of the spawn, and perhaps maintain at least a few of the wrigglers.
I can't help but also consider the frustration and distress levels endured by the continuously unsuccessful spawners.

[Larry Bugg]

On what foundation basis do you disagree ? And why do you 'respectively' disagree ? What does that mean ?
The width of the tank is fine, as is the depth, and who's to say that 30" length of tank is somehow totally unsuitable, or that 48" length is absolutely necessary, for keeping adult discus ?
Is that based on your experience ?
Opinion is fine, but your statement needs more backing than that, imho.
I don't know what your credentials are, but I've been fish-keeping for over 50 years, and have lengthy experience keeping discus - in similar conditions as what we're talking about here as well, and have seen no evidence whatsoever that adult discus need x amount of length of tank to be raised successfully.

The OP was asking a serious valid question, and I feel it is more important and pertinent to answer it in a manner that reasonably provides a solution that could and should work, rather than giving a reason why it shouldn't, without any real background to support it.
I simply mentioned 4" discus, rather than mature adults, simply for the sake of cost-saving, not for 'grow-out' purposes. Replacing his tank is not in the equation here.

I said respectively because I respect your experience and opinion. I added IMO to my statement because it is my opinion. Can 5 or 6 adults be kept in a tank this size? I have no doubt that they can but is it what is best for the fish, this is where I disagree. I just don't believe that a footprint of 30 X 18 provides enough swimming room for 5 or 6 adult discus. I also have been keeping aquariums for almost 50 years and my experience is that along with providing enough total water volume for water quality one must also provide enough swimming room so the fish is not too cramped.

[discuspaul]

I said respectively because I respect your experience and opinion. I added IMO to my statement because it is my opinion. Can 5 or 6 adults be kept in a tank this size? I have no doubt that they can but is it what is best for the fish, this is where I disagree. I just don't believe that a footprint of 30 X 18 provides enough swimming room for 5 or 6 adult discus. I also have been keeping aquariums for almost 50 years and my experience is that along with providing enough total water volume for water quality one must also provide enough swimming room so the fish is not too cramped.

Fair enough, Larry.

You're entitled to your opinion and me to mine. I hope we can agree to simply disagree, but in my experience
that tank footprint has more than adequate swimming room for 5 or 6 adult discus without discomfiting or hindering the fish in any way, particularly as it is 24" high.
The total water volume for water quality maintenance, as well as the overall surface area, is much similar in a standard longer tank that is usually narrower in width, unless it's custom-made. That's where I'm 'coming from', because a less lengthy tank is no more, or no less, cramped than one that is narrower in width, imo.

BTW, the reason I asked why you said respectively, is because if you respect my opinion, you would have said 'respectfully', not 'respectively'. Sorry, this is not intended to be a grammar lesson, I just couldn't understand what you were saying. Respectively means something else entirely.

And I respect your opinion too.
May we bury the hatchet and call it a draw ?

[TNT77]

I would have to agree with Larry completely on this one. When you figure out swimming room for larger fish you go by the base footprint not the height. It does not matter if it it 24 high the base footprint is way too small for this. I believe there was someone who posted about a 60g cube not long ago. If we go by what your saying you could put 6 adult discus in a 2ft square area? This is why you must look at the base of the footprint. The tank isnt even 3ft long and only 18" wide it is not enough room for even 5 adults imo.

[ShinShin]

Now that Larry has posted, and I still agree with him, I would like to add to his comments. The top 6" of your tank are absolute wasted space as far as discus are concerned. That's ~15 to 18 gal. of water. There is no need to be higher than 16-18" for a discus tank. Although 18" is more aesthetically pleasing than 16" to me, it is not necessary. So, that's 1.5 - 2 adult discus that ought not be in the tank. Discus do not utilize that portion of the tank. They relate to the lower 12" of a tank. Discus are not swimmers like, say, a fish like rummynose tetras or guppies. They basically hangout in an area. This is the key here, area. Once a discus establishes it's territory, 48" is a far better distance for another to retreat than 30" once the pecking order is established. The lower order of the order appreciate the distance provided. Its an extra 18". I have observed something over the years about spacing. There is something about 18" that discus relate to, especially front to back. Take a 55 gal.(48Lx18Hx12"w) and a 75 gal. (48Lx18Hx18w), place the same 6 adult discus in them, they will be more comfortable in the 75 gal. tank because of the extra 6" front to back. They do not get this comfort in a tank if it were 6" higher and 12" wide.

So, with displacement by substrate, plants, heaters, discus and anything else you have, gallon-age volume would dictate 4 discus maximum, but spacewise, if you get a pair or two adult males, IME, you don't have enough room for 4 without major issues for the smaller fish.

Mat

[discuspaul]

Im not about to start splitting hairs with you too, TNT.
But I don't know where you're coming from with those comments.
The height of the tank does make a big difference when keeping discus, imo. And it certainly makes up the volume needed.
But height here has little to do in this discussion with the 'base footprint'.
A 30" X 18" tank has a 540 sq.in. base area, compared to 576 sq.in. in a 48" X 12" tank, an approx. 5% difference. That's my yardstick for determining if there's sufficient swimmimg room for the fish - and for discus the height certainly needs to be taken into account too.
And if the tank were a 24" cube - 24X24X24, I most certainly would not have a problem keeping 6 adult discus in it.

[Larry Bugg]

Fair enough, Larry.


And I respect your opinion too.
May we bury the hatchet and call it a draw ?

No hatchet to bury. We can certainly have different opinions without a fight. I appreciate your response.

[TNT77]

Now that Larry has posted, and I still agree with him, I would like to add to his comments. The top 6" of your tank are absolute wasted space as far as discus are concerned. That's ~15 to 18 gal. of water. There is no need to be higher than 16-18" for a discus tank. Although 18" is more aesthetically pleasing than 16" to me, it is not necessary. So, that's 1.5 - 2 adult discus that ought not be in the tank. Discus do not utilize that portion of the tank. They relate to the lower 12" of a tank. Discus are not swimmers like, say, a fish like rummynose tetras or guppies. They basically hangout in an area. This is the key here, area. Once a discus establishes it's territory, 48" is a far better distance for another to retreat than 30" once the pecking order is established. The lower order of the order appreciate the distance provided. Its an extra 18". I have observed something over the years about spacing. There is something about 18" that discus relate to, especially front to back. Take a 55 gal.(48Lx18Hx12"w) and a 75 gal. (48Lx18Hx18w), place the same 6 adult discus in them, they will be more comfortable in the 75 gal. tank because of the extra 6" front to back. They do not get this comfort in a tank if it were 6" higher and 12" wide.

So, with displacement by substrate, plants, heaters, discus and anything else you have, gallon-age volume would dictate 4 discus maximum, but spacewise, if you get a pair or two adult males, IME, you don't have enough room for 4 without major issues for the smaller fish.

Mat
+1

[discuspaul]

To ShinShin:
I don't know about your discus, but my discus are housed in a 42" long X 18" wide X 24" high tank, and apart from after lights off, they almost always frequent the top 12" of the tank - in fact they use the entire width and height of the tank, but much less the length. I'm sure they appreciate the 18" width much more than they would a 12" width, & would feel more confined in a tank that were only 14" or 16" high, rather than 24".
I know many experienced discus-keepers who have 24" high tanks and wouldn't have it any other way.
Check around,I'm quite sure you'll find many who would agree that a 12" to 16" high tank is far less desirable for discus than one say, over 18".

[ShinShin]

I wouldn't keep them in a 12" tank, Paul. I like 18" myself, but have done fine with the 16" tanks that I have had. I have never seen adult discus routinely use the top of a tank for anything. They even normally feed in the lower 12". I am talking adults. What do you have on the bottom of your tank?

Mat

[discuspaul]

Good, healthy discussion, huh ?
Too bad though, that we've managed to totally highjack this thread. LOL & apologies to the OP.
As I said Mat, my discus use the entire height of my 24" tank, but mainly the top 12", and seem to be quite happy doing it !
I've seen many discus tanks of regular hobbyists and breeders, and in almost all cases the discus regularly frequent the top portion of the tank, whether it's 16" or 24", or even more, except when they're cleaning up any food which has fallen to the bottom. Heck, mine are fed smaller portions, 6 to 12 X a day, and hardly any food touches the bottom in any event.
And btw, my substrate is PFS, and the discus have no problem with probing around in that, as & when some food actually does get to the bottom. And they rest on it throughout the night. No prob there.
If you haven't seen discus routinely utilize the top portion of a tank, then yours must not often show they're very hungry !?
LOL

[Mannie Bothans]

No apologies necessary... this is how I learn-- from the experience of others.

The reason why the aquarium has no fish in it yet is because I want make the best choices. i am prone to erring on the side of caution. When my son got a guinea pig from a rescue place, i built a two-story C&C with a 9ft x 5ft first floor.

This particular (weirdly proportioned) tank was originally intended to house only two fancy goldfish.

i'd love to keep the plants, but if I do discus, i'm really having my doubts about my ability to keep the tank clean enough.

And for some reason, my shift key isn't working on the i on my keyboard.

[discuspaul]

No apologies necessary... this is how I learn-- from the experience of others.

The reason why the aquarium has no fish in it yet is because I want make the best choices. i am prone to erring on the side of caution. When my son got a guinea pig from a rescue place, i built a two-story C&C with a 9ft x 5ft first floor.

This particular (weirdly proportioned) tank was originally intended to house only two fancy goldfish.

i'd love to keep the plants, but if I do discus, i'm really having my doubts about my ability to keep the tank clean enough.

And for some reason, my shift key isn't working on the i on my keyboard.


Thanks for being so patient and open-minded, Mannie.

And it certainly isn't rocket science to successfully keep & raise discus in a clean, planted tank, so please don't be daunted by it.
For you to have a look Mannie, and for any others who may not have seen it, here's my modest 70 something gal., low-tech, planted juvie discus tank. It's 42" X 18" X 24" high, and the pics will provide ample evidence that my discus routinely frequent the top portion of the tank (and like it too, I'm sure) - as I believe most discus do, unless there's something not quite right with them:

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Sept2011

[TNT77]

Thanks for being so patient and open-minded, Mannie.

And it certainly isn't rocket science to successfully keep & raise discus in a clean, planted tank, so please don't be daunted by it.
For you to have a look Mannie, and for any others who may not have seen it, here's my modest 70 something gal., low-tech, planted juvie discus tank. It's 42" X 18" X 24" high, and the pics will provide ample evidence that my discus routinely frequent the top portion of the tank (and like it too, I'm sure) - as I believe most discus do, unless there's something not quite right with them:

http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/h357/discuspaul/Sept2011
Almost all of my 20 or so discus keep within the lower half of my tanks..most of which are 18" and 24"..unless its feeding time of course. But I guess according to you there is something not quite right about them.

[judy]

Yes, Judy, you certainly can ignore the spawn, but they'll likely keep spawning and if aggressive enough, will eventually succeed at intimidating and keeping other fish in the tank away from some of the spawn, and perhaps maintain at least a few of the wrigglers.
I can't help but also consider the frustration and distress levels endured by the continuously unsuccessful spawners.

I don't know that fish are capable of frustration and distress. I do know that with three out of four of my mated pairs, the female always eats the eggs or the wigglers if given the chance, so no distress there. and since i have only one spawning tank, pairs are often spawning in the main tank and routinely losing their eggs to overnight predation, and there doesn't seem to be any incipient neurosis erupting.

Re the top 12 inches thing: mine never head up there unless it's bloodworm time in the feeding cone. They're always in the middle or near the bottom or the 24 inch high tank.

[Orange Crush]

Looking at Paul's tank (very nice looking by the way) I can see why they would be hanging at the top. There is less room to swim about towards the bottom because of the logs and plants. Maybe that is the determining factor as to where they hang out.
I would think that if you had a planted tank the discus would then indeed prefer a tank taller than 16-20".

[discuspaul]

You mean your discus never streak up to the top of the tank, and hang out there expectantly, at times for many minutes, eagerly waiting for a food hand-out whenever you walk into the room or approach the tank ?

Hard to believe too, that you don't seem to accept that stress in discus ( and you likely won't see overt & apparent physical evidence of that, same as in humans or animals), occasioned from numerous sources - e.g. poor water quality, malnutrition, bullying, etc. - is a precursor to a weakening of the immune system, and resultant susceptability to a variety of pathogens and illnesses.
What I mean by frustration and distress would be the anticipated result of committed discus parents having to constantly & continuously fend off other marauding fish to protect their eggs or newly hatched fry.
The other side of the coin is of course that new discus spawners that haven't yet developed the parental instinct will be attracted to feasting on their own eggs or wigglers - it's good food after all, and they know that.
C'mon Judy, I don't need to say this to you, you know that.

[gerrard00]

Thanks for being so patient and open-minded, Mannie.
And it certainly isn't rocket science to successfully keep & raise discus in a clean, planted tank, so please don't be daunted by it.


Raising them in a planted tank was definitely rocket science for me! So much so that I would never even think about doing it with juvies again. I was admittedly a noob fish keeper, so maybe that explains why others have had more success than I.

[Mannie Bothans]

I'm a noob, too-- so I'm only considering adults. I'm also to the point of considering artificial plants

[Orange Crush]

It will be hard to keep the fake plants clean of poop, food and bacteria too although you can take those out and hand wash them every few days but you will not get the benefit of live plants which help keep algae and nitrates low. In my cichlid tank I never have to change the water, the nitrates stay below 5 and I have no algae. The cichlids are super happy and have had several batches of fry that got big enough to sell to my LFS.
Of course I have not tried this with discus but I guess what I am trying to say is if you have experience with live plants and are good with them and you are buying adult discus then why not use live plants instead of fake?

[judy]

You mean your discus never streak up to the top of the tank, and hang out there expectantly, at times for many minutes, eagerly waiting for a food hand-out whenever you walk into the room or approach the tank ?

Hard to believe too, that you don't seem to accept that stress in discus ( and you likely won't see overt & apparent physical evidence of that, same as in humans or animals), occasioned from numerous sources - e.g. poor water quality, malnutrition, bullying, etc. - is a precursor to a weakening of the immune system, and resultant susceptability to a variety of pathogens and illnesses.
What I mean by frustration and distress would be the anticipated result of committed discus parents having to constantly & continuously fend off other marauding fish to protect their eggs or newly hatched fry.
The other side of the coin is of course that new discus spawners that haven't yet developed the parental instinct will be attracted to feasting on their own eggs or wigglers - it's good food after all, and they know that.
C'mon Judy, I don't need to say this to you, you know that.

The only time mine head to the top is when they see the food hit the water. When I walk in the room, they swim to the front, at mid-level, to watch me. And I do know how new spawners behave, lord knows I've had five pairs of them all told. As for "hard to believe"-- one of those phrases that tends to cause the recipient to bridle and is unnecessary in civil give-and-take-- I do not accept that discus experience the emotions of stress and frustration. I do know that the mated pairs in my DT who go through spawning cycles seem utterly unaffected in terms of physical health even by any physical stresses involved in keeping other fish away from their eggs, by the egg losses. And far more experienced discus minds than mine have told me, in a thread I started about that very thing not long ago after I noted one pair in particular was spawning frequently in the DT, that it does not negatively impact the fish.

Sorry for the segue, OP... back to your most recent inquiry: if you want to see plants in the tank, real ones at least contribute a little to the tank's biosystem and if set up properly require little care. Artificial ones, as another poster noted, just collect crud (mind you, so do the roots of my water lettuce, whcih is getting annoying...)

[Skip]

I'm a noob, too-- so I'm only considering adults. I'm also to the point of considering artificial plants

you are NOT a Noob for getting Adults! that is BEST way a NOOB can go.. for first batch.. they are more forgiving of water quality mistakes then juvies