Not knowing whether to laugh or cry

[chrisb01]

Someone called M, posted this in another forum. I asked permission to posted it here.

Simple and easy to understand?

Two Versions:

OLD VERSION
THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER

The ant works
hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and
laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper
thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the ant is warm
and well fed.

The grasshopper has
no food or shelter, so he
dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE OLD STORY:

Be responsible for yourself!

MODERN VERSION
The New Ant and the Grasshopper
This one is a little different....

The ant works hard
in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house
and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant
is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper
calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be
allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving.

CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN,
and ABC show up to
provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper
next to a video of the ant
in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper
is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah
with the grasshopper
and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green...'

Occupy the Anthill stages
a demonstration in front of the ant's
house where the news stations film the SEIU group singing, "We shall
overcome".

Then Rev. Jeremiah Wright
has the group kneel down to pray for the grasshopper's sake,
while he ××××s the ants.

President Obama condemns the ant
and blames President Bush 43, President Bush 41, President Reagan, Christopher
Columbus, and the Pope
for the grasshopper's
plight..

Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid
exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has
gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper,
and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his
fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts
the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act
retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number
of green bugs and,
having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is
confiscated by the Government Green Czar
and given to the grasshopper.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper
and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ant's
food while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just
happens to be the ant's old house,
crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the
house, now abandoned, is taken
over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the ramshackle, once
prosperous and peaceful, neighborhood.

The entire Nation collapses
bringing the rest
of the free world with it.


MORAL OF THE STORY:


Be careful how you vote in 2012.



I've posted this here because I believe that most of us are ants
not a grasshoppers!

Make sure that you pass
this on to other ants.

Don't bother sending
it on to any grasshoppers
because they wouldn't
understand it, anyway



“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson

[Darrell Ward]

Sounds like typical horseSh#! political propaganda to me!:D

[mrblah00]

+1

[mmorris]

The ant works hard in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter. The grasshopper comes 'round and, being larger, helps himself to the ant's provisions. The grasshopper refuses to work for his own provisions, preferring instead to take them from the ants. The ants are told if they don't like it, they can vote for someone who will represent them in government. However, the ants are only allowed to vote for grasshoppers. The ants continue to work but provisions are becoming harder and harder to find. One ant talks to another and says "if we organize all the ants, together we can force the grasshoppers to work like us." The grasshoppers hear of the plan, and attack the ants. The ants fight back with Kermit right in front, and because there are more ants than grasshoppers, the grasshoppers are no longer able to stay warm and well fed during the winter unless they are willing to work lilke the ants. Yes, most of us are ants - not grasshoppers.

[chrisb01]

Of anywhere in this world, in the USA you have the opportunity to do and get whatever you set your mind to do or get. It doesn't matter what color, creed, religion or nationality you are.

You want to get somewhere in life? Like the song says, 'Get off your a$$ and jam.' One thing is for sure, sitting in a park in NYC is not going to get you a half decent job. And for dang sure is not deserving of someone else's paycheck.

Please don't get me wrong, I have a 21 year old daughter with CP, and she is severely dyslexic, she depends a lot on Government help. But she graduated from High School, and has been accepted to pre-med school at Southeastern University. She wants to be independent.

A little story, and I'm done, I know I talk too dang long.

My aunt is in her eighties now. However, when she was 53 years old, her husband of more than 20 years up and left with another woman. She almost went crazy, didn't even know how to balance her check book, my brother taught her. She spoke with a heavy accent. And at that age of 53, she went and got her GED, went to a community college, then at almost 60, she got her bachelors degree and became an RN.

A Grasshopper that became an Ant.

[lipadj46]

We have less social mobility these days due to a number of reasons,one thing rep and dems will be talking about this election

[Melissa]

Like it :) sharing this one

[TURQ64]

Sounds like typical horseSh#! political propaganda to me!:D
+1
along with the BS story about 'ship high in transit'!!!!
Total mularky

[chrisb01]

Sounds like typical horseSh#! political propaganda to me!:D

It depends how you look at it. Again, the story is not mine, but I do see a message in it.


+1
along with the BS story about 'ship high in transit'!!!!
Total mularky

You still remember that? It did kill time! I actually like like that joke. But I wouldn't expect someone who lives out on the 'farthest outpost' to understand a joke like that :-)

Oh, TURQ64, BTW I like your sig.

Have you seen my avatar? The Marine Corps emblem?

We took the wings from the Air Force, the anchor from the Navy, the rope from the Army, and on the seventh day, while God was asleep, we took the World...

[ericatdallas]

I think the reason why this kind of thinking works so well among the masses is b/c it does impact the middle class a little more than the ultra-rich.

Middle class acn see the mobility a little more. They are able to go from poor to middle class (or vice versa) with 'relative' ease. This allows them to relate to the rich.

However, I can tell you I know a lot of 'lazy' drug-abusing people that are rich now b/c of who they know and what they inherited. We also hear a lot about insider trading. It's hard to enforce laws regarding inside trading. Example: I'm sitting down with my friend Jake, he tells me about his girlfriend Sarah, Sarah's dad is the CEO of Big X Corp. Sarah mentioned to JAke that 'Dad' is going taking over in San Francisco. I heard last week from my other friend Jane, that Company A and Company B was in talks with Big X Corp about a take over and the decision would be made soon. Company B is in San Francisco, buy put options on Company B and I buy short positions on Company A.

Viola, I had inside information b/c of the people I knew. Some of it might be deliberate, others might just be 'luck' of who I know. But it's not coincidental that the rich gets richer.

Chris Baez buys Mutual Fund A, Mutual Fund A invested heavily in Company A. Company A's stock price plunges and goes under. Mutual Fund A loses 10% of their value. Chris Baez has to work another year past his planned retirement age.

I make a fortune, buy a Yacht, spend $10,000 in campaign contributions for my friend Jake to run for Congress.

... Jake wins Congress. Tells us taxes are too high for the rich.

I have lunch with Jake, he tells me about .... (and the cycle continues).

So while I'm not empathetic to the 'modern' story, I do think that oversimplifies our VERY complicated situation. The wealth divide hasn't been greater since the last Great Depression. That should say something about inequity shouldn't it?

I forgot who said this, but it's not my idea... the rich don't make jobs, the middle class buy things so that the rich can hire more people. Take money from the middle class, they have less money to buy thing, and the rich have no reason to hire more people to make more things to sell.

That's oversimplification, but you have to have supply and demand. To think that just b/c the rich have more money to hire, doesn't mean they will. You have to have the intellect, drive, capital, and DEMAND to make a business. If you don't have demand, it doesn't matter how much you have of the rest.

[YSS]

12-21-2012 can't come fast enough. End it all!!!!!!!!

[MSD]

If we are not elevated above the level of ants and grasshoppers then all is truly lost. Sharing with you fellow man who has less for social reasons is not a bad thing. Conservatives are selfish people who use any trick to make the real hard working middle class angry or fearful that their money will be taken, but that is all baloney. Its the really rich that we want to pay more in tax, they use more resources to facilitate their companies in the first place. While they mislead its the conservatives that want to exploit class warfare by making the middle class hate the lower class as they accuse Obama of using the middle class to fight the upper class. We are ALL pawns in their political war.

[chrisb01]

Of course is all a game between the two parties.

But the tax increase is not just for millionaires. Don't believe me?
Do the research. The tax increase is for people making $250,000.00 or more a year. A small business owner with two or three employees, who makes that much, will pay a higher tax along with the very rich.

Eric, I do understand, you really made it easy for anybody to understand how the insider trading works. And it is running rampant.

[ericatdallas]

The problem is a combination of low taxes and social welfare programs. The intent of welfare is to protect the truly vulnerable and the intent of taxes is to pool resources to pay for public use programs and services that individuals can't afford individually.

For instance, a community hiring teachers to teach all their children versus each family hiring their own teachers. It benefits the community, it makes the service affordable. Another example is police, fire fighting, and military. Should each of us hire our own body guards to protect us? Any country with a rampaging army would plow through our disorganized and poorly funded system.

That's what taxes are for.

Who are the truly vulnerable? I think the problem is we're getting more and more lenient in applying that standard and less and less strict in enforcing it.

This isn't about Obama, it's isn't about Romney, it's not about any other specific person or party. It's about a system that promote politicians that pander to the most vocal of voters. We need people in poltiical office that are willing to compromise.

What congress needs isn't a different president, it's a marriage counselor that will tell them that for a successful government, they need to make compromises and try to understand the other person's ideas before dismissing it.

Let's put it another way... regarding the 'rich' making jobs. Don't the rich, by definition, already have money to create jobs? If the opportunity is there, do you think the rich would let money sit in the back before investing it to make more money?

Let's say I'm rich (I'm not), but if I had 10,000,000 USD sitting in the back but taxes are 40% for people who make $250,000 a year or more. The theory is that I'm going to not try to make money? That's ridiculous. B/c Let's say I have a business opportunity to spend $2M and let's say, with that investment I make $500,000 a year.

That means in 7 years, I'm going to earn $3.5M and pay $1.4M in taxes, but that means I'll still have made $100,000. Wait, you say, that's a measely $14K a year, hardly worth it. Well, let's not forget that capital investments, real estates, cost of doing business is tax deductible. D'oh! So in reality, I probably made $800K in 7 years or about $123K per year for my initial $2M investment.

How does that work out though? That's about an 8% after tax return! Okay, so the numbers will vary by ACTUAL/REAL numbers (maybe up or down).

On the flip side? Waht do I do? Savings account? What's the average return on that? A less than 1% interest rate?

So then they invest it or government bonds right? Sure.. but then that money gets spents and invested anyway to create more jobs.

So to say the rich would just sit on their money is ridiculous. The only time it would be the case is when the taxes are so disproportionate for the rich that they have to lose money.

If the rich were as 'smart' and 'hard working' as people want to claim, then they're not going to let a 40% tax rate keep them from making money. I sure wouldn't.

Disclaimer: *** actual numbers will vary on real world factors and serve only to provide an easy to follow example. Some math was done in my head to save time in writing this post.

[Rod]

Of course is all a game between the two parties.

But the tax increase is not just for millionaires. Don't believe me?
Do the research. The tax increase is for people making $250,000.00 or more a year. A small business owner with two or three employees, who makes that much, will pay a higher tax along with the very rich.

Eric, I do understand, you really made it easy for anybody to understand how the insider trading works. And it is running rampant.

$250,000 pa is not a lot of money?? Just because its not a million dollars! and only 40% tax!! We pay 48% on figures way under half that amount here in Australia. Nothing but contempt here, for people on enormous incomes crying about taxes.....booo hoooo.

[chrisb01]

Yes, I hear that things are worst in Australia than here in the USA.

Look, if they hike the taxes, the rich will find ways not to pay them. Warren Buffett pays less taxes than his secretary because of write offs. They claim everything as a business expense, dinners, hotels, travel expenses, tolls, etc.

I have been studying Biblical Prophecy for a few years now, and I tell you, combining that with what's going on today, things will get a lot worst before they get better, 'if' they are going to get better. I hear rumors that gas will be over $5.00 a gal. before the end of February.

[ericatdallas]

Well, it's not all about the tax write-offs. Part of it is also due to the capital gains tax. The long-term capital gains tax is 15%... that means someone wealthy with most of their money in stocks anyway, will get a 15% tax on profit selling stocks they own longer than one year. I wouldn't really call one year as long-term though... but that's the legal IRS cutoff.

Then the dividend payouts get a little more sketchy. There are regular dividends that are taxed at income level or qualified dividends taxed at capital gains rate. Much of the dividend to large wealthy stockholders can be taxed at the capital gains rate. So if you own stock in Company A, they have $1 per share dividends, and you've held the stock that meets requirements, you could would only have to pay 15% of that dollar in taxes. So people (typically wealthier individuals) who depend on dividend income, would get a lower tax rate.

See, that's why things aren't so clear cut. If we taxed income with our current rate structure and without the capital gains exception, then we aren't even talking about raising income taxes but capital gains rate. But b/c wealthy investors depend on dividend as income, then they do consider it part of their salary. It also impacts stock packages for executives with large stock options. So while they get stock in the company, they are also earning a dividend income per share (which is usually taxed at the qualified dividend value).

This is why Warren Buffet has a low tax rate. Not just tax deductions, but the fact his income is based mostly on qualified dividends and capital gains.

This is also one of the main targets of the democrats. While it does help the middle class (my investments benefit by this), the working class are usually taxed at a lower rate anyway and a smaller portion of their income is capital gains.

phew...

again... things aren't always black and white, right or wrong, up or down...

[Rod]

Yes, I hear that things are worst in Australia than here in the USA.

I don't know where you heard that, and i certainly never said it. It is infact the opposite to what you think, Australia is still thriving and was only slightly affected by the finacial crisis. In fact, Australia is recognized as the western country with the best and most stable system.


Look, if they hike the taxes, the rich will find ways not to pay them. Warren Buffett pays less taxes than his secretary because of write offs. They claim everything as a business expense, dinners, hotels, travel expenses, tolls, etc. If they are legitimate expenses he is writing off, then he is fully entitled to reduce his taxable income. If he is breaking the law, well, lets hope the tax department find out hey!!


I have been studying Biblical Prophecy for a few years now, and I tell you, combining that with what's going on today, things will get a lot worst before they get better, 'if' they are going to get better. I hear rumors that gas will be over $5.00 a gal. before the end of February. lol, your kidding right?? Biblical prophecy is a serious study subject in America!! That is so screwed up! Well good luck with that.

[scottthomas]

Someone called M, posted this in another forum. I asked permission to posted it here.

Simple and easy to understand?

Two Versions:

OLD VERSION
THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER

The ant works
hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and
laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper
thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the ant is warm
and well fed.

The grasshopper has
no food or shelter, so he
dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE OLD STORY:

Be responsible for yourself!

MODERN VERSION
The New Ant and the Grasshopper
This one is a little different....

The ant works hard
in the withering heat and the rain all summer long, building his house
and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant
is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper
calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be
allowed to be warm and well fed while he is cold and starving.

CBS, NBC, PBS, CNN,
and ABC show up to
provide pictures of the shivering grasshopper
next to a video of the ant
in his comfortable home with a table filled with food.
America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper
is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah
with the grasshopper
and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green...'

Occupy the Anthill stages
a demonstration in front of the ant's
house where the news stations film the SEIU group singing, "We shall
overcome".

Then Rev. Jeremiah Wright
has the group kneel down to pray for the grasshopper's sake,
while he ××××s the ants.

President Obama condemns the ant
and blames President Bush 43, President Bush 41, President Reagan, Christopher
Columbus, and the Pope
for the grasshopper's
plight..

Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid
exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has
gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper,
and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his
fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts
the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act
retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number
of green bugs and,
having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is
confiscated by the Government Green Czar
and given to the grasshopper.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper
and his free-loading friends finishing up the last bits of the ant's
food while the government house he is in, which, as you recall, just
happens to be the ant's old house,
crumbles around them because the grasshopper doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow, never to be seen again.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident, and the
house, now abandoned, is taken
over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the ramshackle, once
prosperous and peaceful, neighborhood.

The entire Nation collapses
bringing the rest
of the free world with it.


MORAL OF THE STORY:


Be careful how you vote in 2012.



I've posted this here because I believe that most of us are ants
not a grasshoppers!

Make sure that you pass
this on to other ants.

Don't bother sending
it on to any grasshoppers
because they wouldn't
understand it, anyway



“When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the
government fears the people, there is liberty.” Thomas Jefferson


Funny. I like it.



Conservatives are selfish people who use any trick to make the real hard working middle class angry or fearful that their money will be taken, but that is all baloney.

Uummm. I am pretty much a Libertarian (I guess if I had to identify with any one group) and often have conservative views in regards to role of our gov't and personal freedoms and I dont try to use any trick to make middle class angry. Heck I am middle class. Millions and millions of middle class Americans from all occupations, education levels, and all areas of the country have conservative views on the proper role of government. I also have views that many would consider liberal. I think this is the way of most right thinking people. I worry about so many partisan loyalists who stick with a ceratain party like it was their favorite football team, even supporting them when obviously wrong.

I say kick them all out and start over. Maybe they will start acting like the voters are in charge.

[roundfishross]

dont you guys all know the mother ship is coming back 12-25-12 .........lol

[chrisb01]

I don't know where you heard that, and i certainly never said it. It is infact the opposite to what you think, Australia is still thriving and was only slightly affected by the finacial crisis. In fact, Australia is recognized as the western country with the best and most stable system.

That's what I thought too. However, we had this discussion in another forum, the guy from Australia doesn't seem to agree with you. I will PM you the site.


If they are legitimate expenses he is writing off, then he is fully entitled to reduce his taxable income. If he is breaking the law, well, lets hope the tax department find out hey!!

There are very little tax audits. Besides, just about anything can be legitimized as a business expense. I mean, they can take their brother to a very expensive restaurant and claim they were meeting with a client, that would legitimize it as a business expense. So if they go to California on vacation, they can claim it as a business trip. Also, don't forget there's a lot of corruption. IRS auditors have pockets too.


lol, your kidding right?? Biblical prophecy is a serious study subject in America!! That is so screwed up! Well good luck with that.

YES, I believe what the Bible says. You can trust the Bible more than any politician or journalist in the world. Maybe you would want to read the Bible some time with an open mind. Don't take my word for it.

Disclaimer: I am not a religious person in any way, shape or form.

And YES, America was founded on Christian principles. You would have to read or just do a little research on the biographies of the founding fathers and the story behind the writing of the constitution and the bill of rights.

[chrisb01]

dont you guys all know the mother ship is coming back 12-25-12 .........lol

Hahahaha... Good one. I don't believe anyone knows the future.

Oh, OK. I thought it was 12/21/2012. That is if you're referring to the Mayan calendar.
If the Mayans knew the future, what happen to them? :-)

[ericatdallas]

There are very little tax audits. Besides, just about anything can be legitimized as a business expense. I mean, they can take their brother to a very expensive restaurant and claim they were meeting with a client, that would legitimize it as a business expense. So if they go to California on vacation, they can claim it as a business trip. Also, don't forget there's a lot of corruption. IRS auditors have pockets too.


I think we can all claim those same deductions. Most people choose to take standard deductions. I tried itemizing last year and found that I fell short and got a bigger break from the standard deduction.

There are tax shelters, but I don't think Warren Buffett goes and above and beyond in claiming them. This is a man who has already donated billions of his fortune to charity AND who has pledged the rest of it for charity. I find it hard to believe he's that hard up for money or that greedy that he looks for every opportunity to ripoff the government.

Further, this is the same man that bought a house fifty years ago that he still lives in today (this is before he became uber-wealthy). I remember reading an article about buffet years ago where he would send his children and grandchildren to school, but thought they should earn their way themselves. He felt that his responsibility ended when he provided them all the opportunities to meet their potential (or something like that, can't remember verbatim). He also flew coach...but I think when he got really old and with the whole security checks at airport he did eventually buy a private jet.

He used to be the second richest man in the world but still chose to live well below his means.

I'm not saying he should be put up for sainthood, but when a man lives relatively modestly, does so much public good work, and preaches hard work and long-term investment (versus risky trading and a quick buck) ... I think it's worth hearing him out. He's certainly doesn't seem like a hypocrite.

Many ask, "well, why don't you just donate your money to the government." Well, his money is pocket change. It's a collective effort. It also doesn't solve the problems. If I had the money he had, I wouldn't let the government spend it, I would certainly direct it as I saw fit in the most worthy charitable investments.

[roundfishross]

Hahahaha... Good one. I don't believe anyone knows the future.

Oh, OK. I thought it was 12/21/2012. That is if you're referring to the Mayan calendar.
If the Mayans knew the future, what happen to them? :-)

oops had the wong date sorry. hope no one misses it becasue of my typo....he he he

they caught the last ride back duh! where else could they have gone? :P

[chrisb01]

Eric, yes I know about Warren Buffett, maybe I used the wrong name as an example. Anyway, he was the one who said he pays less taxes than his secretary.

But I do remember a few years back when someone needed a heart transplant, Mr. Buffett heard that there was a donor but it was on the other side of the country. He sent a plane to get the donor heart to fly it across the country and save the person's life.

There is people with money who rather give it to charity than to the government, or do both, and I respect that. We do have the obligation to pay our taxes, no matter how much or how little we get.

I also go for the short form myself, I just don't have the patience to itemize and I'm not good at saving receipts anyway.

[mmorris]

And YES, America was founded on Christian principles.
Which Christian principles you are referring to?

[chrisb01]

Which Christian principles you are referring to?

You would have to read or just do a little research on the biographies of the founding fathers and the story behind the writing of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and the Declaration of Independence.

[mmorris]

I am an historian, Chris, by profession. The 'principles' involved in the 'founding' of this country include: genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, religious intolerance, the repression of women, exploitation of the working class and robbing our neighbors of their land and resources. George Washington became the first president because nobody in the 'inner circle' disliked him intensely. Thomas Jefferson was interested in banning the importation of Africans because Virginia was awash in slaves and so his brought no profit at market. Shall I go on? People need to read a lot deeper than their high school history text books. I recommend you begin with Howard Zinn's well-known classic A People's History of the United States and Thomas J. DiLorenzo's Lincoln Unmasked.

[Cevoe]

"George Washington became the first president because nobody in the 'inner circle' disliked him intensely."

He also kind of led the revolutionary army to a victory which in turn kind of led to the founding of the country.
I'm no historian but I think that might have had something to do with George Washington becoming the first president.
I also think that at this point most people realize that historical figures were not without fault and were not as soft and cuddly as we would have liked them to be.
Hoover was a cross dresser, Freud was a pervert and now Dexter's step sister is falling in love with him.

[Darrell Ward]

I am an historian, Chris, by profession. The 'principles' involved in the 'founding' of this country include: genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, religious intolerance, the repression of women, exploitation of the working class and robbing our neighbors of their land and resources. George Washington became the first president because nobody in the 'inner circle' disliked him intensely. Thomas Jefferson was interested in banning the importation of Africans because Virginia was awash in slaves and so his brought no profit at market. Shall I go on? People need to read a lot deeper than their high school history text books. I recommend you begin with Howard Zinn's well-known classic A People's History of the United States and Thomas J. DiLorenzo Lincoln Unmasked.

It is amusing how a lot of people in this country believe that every famous leader from our past was some kind of hero, and were somehow doing God's work or something. The truth is uglier, most were probably driven by greed and power.

[ericatdallas]

uh-oh...

[YSS]

The truth is uglier, most were probably driven by greed and power.

Not probably. They were.

[Rod]

YES, I believe what the Bible says.

Would that be a literal belief, or a figurative belief? A literal belief would lead one to a mental asylum or prison if one was to live the teachings, surely??


You can trust the Bible more than any politician or journalist in the world.

I trust no authority, each proposition has to stand on its own merits. Garbage is garbage, no matter the source.


Maybe you would want to read the Bible some time with an open mind.

Perhaps you should know me first before making such rash statements. Remember, if your too open-minded, your brains will fall out. When propositions verge on the insane, my mind starts to close, at least until i see real evidence!! Got any?


Don't take my word for it.

As i said above, no chance of that!


Disclaimer: I am not a religious person in any way, shape or form.

Really!! hahahahahahaha


And YES, America was founded on Christian principles.

Was that the principle that made it ok to invade the indiginous people??


You would have to read or just do a little research on the biographies of the founding fathers and the story behind the writing of the constitution and the bill of rights.

I see Martha provided some nice links if you'd like to catch up.

[chrisb01]

I am an historian, Chris, by profession. The 'principles' involved in the 'founding' of this country include: genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, religious intolerance, the repression of women, exploitation of the working class and robbing our neighbors of their land and resources. George Washington became the first president because nobody in the 'inner circle' disliked him intensely. Thomas Jefferson was interested in banning the importation of Africans because Virginia was awash in slaves and so his brought no profit at market. Shall I go on? People need to read a lot deeper than their high school history text books. I recommend you begin with Howard Zinn's well-known classic A People's History of the United States and Thomas J. DiLorenzo's Lincoln Unmasked.

All I have is a bachelors on business, and I got it a long time ago, don't even remember what I learned. So you have one up on me.

Maybe the books I have read were written by people with different mind sets than the authors you have read. I am aware that there are people which differ greatly in the history of our country. Being human beings we tend to look for things and people, read books, etc. that agree with our own believes. For example: Being a Christian, I would not tend to read a book written by Friedrich Nietzsche, though I have read some of his works. I do like to know what the opposition says and think, so I will look for the books and authors you have recommended.

However, I still believe that we live in a Christian country, with Christian values. This is the greatest country in the world. This is home, it might have a broken window and a hole in the roof, but it is home. No one can or will take that away from me.

[ericatdallas]

This is just for fun (a redirection) but I'm being serious... I'm kind of curious if there are any 'secret' stories of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. Any greedy motives on him? He seems a pretty impressive guy that believed in equal rights for the ethnic groups, the social classes, and irrespective of gender.

Maybe he was a masochist?

[chrisb01]

Would that be a literal belief, or a figurative belief? A literal belief would lead one to a mental asylum or prison if one was to live the teachings, surely??

It all depends how you read it. I take some things literal and some things figurative.


I trust no authority, each proposition has to stand on its own merits. Garbage is garbage, no matter the source.

I hope you didn't include the Bible in this statement, I would be highly offended if you did. Up to this point since I've been in SD, I have read some of your posts, and you sound like a very intelligent person. Not like someone that would deliberately and purposely offend anybody. The Bible is not garbage.


Perhaps you should know me first before making such rash statements. Remember, if your too open-minded, your brains will fall out. When propositions verge on the insane, my mind starts to close, at least until i see real evidence!! Got any?

"Disclaimer: I am not a religious person in any way, shape or form."

Really!! hahahahahahaha

If you ever do read the Bible, you would know that Jesus was not a religious person himself. The religious leaders of his time instigated the murder of Jesus.


"Don't take my word for it."

As i said above, no chance of that!

That's cool, I take no offense on that. Even some of my own closest relatives don't agree with me in a lot of things. There has to be disagreement in order to have right and wrong.


Was that the principle that made it ok to invade the indiginous people??

To be perfectly honest with you, that is one thing that haunts me day and night from time to time. The same thing happened in South Africa, they went with a Bible under their armpits and took over the country. It is hard for me, though I try hard, to leave the past behind and look to the future. No sense in dwelling in the past when there is so much potential in the future.


I see Martha provided some nice links if you'd like to catch up.

No, Martha did not provide any links. She did recommend some books, and I will look for them in my local Public Library right this week.

[mmorris]

All I have is a bachelors on business, and I got it a long time ago, don't even remember what I learned. So you have one up on me.

Maybe the books I have read were written by people with different mind sets than the authors you have read. I am aware that there are people which differ greatly in the history of our country. Being human beings we tend to look for things and people, read books, etc. that agree with our own believes. For example: Being a Christian, I would not tend to read a book written by Friedrich Nietzsche, though I have read some of his works. I do like to know what the opposition says and think, so I will look for the books and authors you have recommended.

However, I still believe that we live in a Christian country, with Christian values. This is the greatest country in the world. This is home, it might have a broken window and a hole in the roof, but it is home. No one can or will take that away from me.
It isn't about having a degree; it's about being well-read. It isn't about 'views'. Historians ask a question and then examine the evidence that addresses that question. Conclusions are then based on that evidence. When I read, I think about whether the writer has done the research himself and whether he did a comprehensive job of it. I don't look for books that agree with me; if a writer can change my view on some matter, great! I learned something! The drive behind much of the archaeological work in the Middle East was to find evidence that the stories in the Bible are true. To the best of my knowledge there has been little success. Ancient literary works need to be supported with archaeological evidence before the story becomes recognized as history. Heinrich Schliemann may have believed Homer's The Illiad was fact, but until he discovered Troy, the story remained just that. You may believe the Bible is evidence, but that doesn't make it so.

[Darrell Ward]

This is just for fun (a redirection) but I'm being serious... I'm kind of curious if there are any 'secret' stories of Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. Any greedy motives on him? He seems a pretty impressive guy that believed in equal rights for the ethnic groups, the social classes, and irrespective of gender.

Maybe he was a masochist?

Nah. Don't know that much about him, but I suppose he was like a monk, so obsessed in beliefs that he actually lived them. Not a bad thing I guess, especially for the people that were helped by it. Probably not a lot of dirt there.

[Rod]

It all depends how you read it. I take some things literal and some things figurative.

You do realize that is called cherry picking don't you? So how do you decide what to cherry pick, is it your own personal interpretation of what your God meant? Personally, i think any god should be able to write text that is plainly understood no matter what generation or language. Ambiguity is not a trait i believe a god should have, it seems so ungodlike, dare i say 'human'!!




I hope you didn't include the Bible in this statement, I would be highly offended if you did. Up to this point since I've been in SD, I have read some of your posts, and you sound like a very intelligent person. Not like someone that would deliberately and purposely offend anybody. The Bible is not garbage.

Off course i include the bible. And you have every right to be offended, i would gladly stand by you and defend that right. But you don't have the right to be not offended. So what if you are offended, i am offended on a daily basis by the stuff that goes on in life. Get over it! My intelligence allows me to understand complex constructs, and has nothing to do with your right to be offended. I'm sure those with lower and higher intelligence than i, are perfectly capable of offending you as well.




If you ever do read the Bible, you would know that Jesus was not a religious person himself. The religious leaders of his time instigated the murder of Jesus.

Chris, i have read the bible and am quite familiar with it.




To be perfectly honest with you, that is one thing that haunts me day and night from time to time. The same thing happened in South Africa, they went with a Bible under their armpits and took over the country. It is hard for me, though I try hard, to leave the past behind and look to the future. No sense in dwelling in the past when there is so much potential in the future.

I understand that, i also look to the future. But you would be well served to look into the past to understand the present and the future, so we don't make the same mistakes. I like slavery as an example, christians fought this tooth and nail, but eventually humanitarians won out. Pity Jesus or his dad didn't specifically condemn slavery, even though it was rife.




No, Martha did not provide any links. She did recommend some books, and I will look for them in my local Public Library right this week.

Cool, i hope you enjoy them.

[chrisb01]

When I read, I think about whether the writer has done the research himself and whether he did a comprehensive job of it.

So you did that with Howard Zinn and Thomas J. DiLorenzo?


You may believe the Bible is evidence, but that doesn't make it so.

I never said the Bible was evidence. You either believe the Bible or you don't, it's that simple.

What happened Martha? You saw you couldn't get to me with negative US history and turned to the Bible and archeology?

[YSS]

Very entertaining. Please keep it up. But you all know that no matter how logical you think your points are, it's not going to do one bit to change other side's views. There are thousands of wars and millions and millions of innocent lives to prove that.

[chrisb01]

Very entertaining. Please keep it up. But you all know that no matter how logical you think your points are, it's not going to do one bit to change other side's views. There are thousands of wars and millions and millions of innocent lives to prove that.

You're right...

[Rod]

Very entertaining. Please keep it up. But you all know that no matter how logical you think your points are, it's not going to do one bit to change other side's views. There are thousands of wars and millions and millions of innocent lives to prove that.

Personally, i target the undecided audience in these discussions. I am under no allusion that Chris will see or understand the points being made, it's just a bonus when he does. But thanks for your concern.

[roundfishross]

Joseph Cambells , the power of myth is also good reading on the subject;)

[nc0gnet0]

The mark of your ignorance is the depth of your belief in injustice and tragedy. What the caterpillar calls the end of the world, the master calls a butterfly.

[chrisb01]

There you go again Rod, we don't have to agree, I can easily say the same thing about you.

I do see and understand the points being made, that I don't agree is a completely different thing. Besides, I am mature enough to know, and admit when I'm wrong. But in my mind and heart, I know I'm right.

OK, so you think you're right, that's OK too. You don't have to agree with me.

[ericatdallas]

What exactly are we discussing here? Even the 'logical' statements seem a little emotional in their veracity.

There are also plenty of faithful Christians who don't believe that the bible is the 'EXACT word of God'. Early on, the stories were told by word-of-mouth. The people who told the stories, codified them, and later translated them have manipulated them for their own purposes. There are a lot of academics that try to go back to the original texts to try to pull context and symbolic meaning out of them that might have been relevant to the people of their time. I'm not saying that the Bible is factual, but it is all we have to provide insight into a way of life. Even academics recognize this as a tool. Just like Wikipedia is not considered a valid reference, it does provide 'leads'.

In the end, people read anything for their own purposes. We see all the time how US legal documents are interpreted however which way people want it to suit their goals. Heck, we see it everyday in this forum when people read a sentence and twist the meaning and make more out of a casual comment than there needs to be.

I've seen plenty of "enlightened and educated" Atheist impose their philosophy and views with 'religious' fervor.

In the end, it's not religion, philosophy or ideas that is the source of human ills, but the people who want to impose it on others.

[ericatdallas]

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155408/atheists-plan-to-go-to-war"]http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/155408/atheists-plan-to-go-to-war

[msharper]

$250,000 pa is not a lot of money?? Just because its not a million dollars! and only 40% tax!! We pay 48% on figures way under half that amount here in Australia. Nothing but contempt here, for people on enormous incomes crying about taxes.....booo hoooo.

Trust me none of you want to live in Montreal! We pay the highest taxes in North America! Of course our socialised government cheaper schools and government healthcare keeps the wealth divide much lower then our friends state side. It's really hard to say that everyone has an equal opurtunity in a system where everything must be paid for? Education? Health care? Etc. are all very expensive in the U.S. if someone grows up in a poor family he or she would need to excel in school and get a scolarship in order to attend an ivy league school. The rich just pay and poof there in right? So for every 1 hard working scholarship poor kid you have a bunch of rich kids that got in on mommy and daddy's dime? Seems a bit unfair right? After all the poor kid didn't choose his family or make them poor. Why should he have to work so much harder to get the same education? This to me is the heart of the wealth problem. If equal education opurtunity was given world wide, not just in the states then wealth would gradually distribute more evenly. No???

[msharper]

I am an historian, Chris, by profession. The 'principles' involved in the 'founding' of this country include: genocide, ethnic cleansing, slavery, religious intolerance, the repression of women, exploitation of the working class and robbing our neighbors of their land and resources. George Washington became the first president because nobody in the 'inner circle' disliked him intensely. Thomas Jefferson was interested in banning the importation of Africans because Virginia was awash in slaves and so his brought no profit at market. Shall I go on? People need to read a lot deeper than their high school history text books. I recommend you begin with Howard Zinn's well-known classic A People's History of the United States and Thomas J. DiLorenzo's Lincoln Unmasked.

Haha! A nice breath of fresh air! You might also mention that Thomas Jefferson was not really a Christian either and in fact that is why he wrote a version of the bible titled the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth in which he removed all the magic and wizardry etc. correct me if I'm wrong Martha. After all I'm Canadian so my American history is a little off sometimes. But the founding fathers were far from religious men out to make America a religious state founded on Christian values.

[Rod]

There you go again Rod, we don't have to agree, I can easily say the same thing about you.

I do see and understand the points being made, that I don't agree is a completely different thing. Besides, I am mature enough to know, and admit when I'm wrong. But in my mind and heart, I know I'm right.

OK, so you think you're right, that's OK too. You don't have to agree with me.

The thing is Chris, i do not claim there is not a god. There may well be one, but wheather its true or not i have no way of verification. But why should i believe in the christian god? I've read the bible and realized the god descibed in there is illogical and man made. There is no actual evidence one way or the other, You yourself have already stated you do not believe the bible word for word, you already realize there are absurdities in it, but still you cling to this construct. Why the Christian god? Why not one of the other many thousands of gods invented by man through the ages? Is it just a cultural thing for you?

[Rod]

Haha! A nice breath of fresh air! You might also mention that Thomas Jefferson was not really a Christian either and in fact that is why he wrote a version of the bible titled the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth in which he removed all the magic and wizardry etc. correct me if I'm wrong Martha. After all I'm Canadian so my American history is a little off sometimes. But the founding fathers were far from religious men out to make America a religious state founded on Christian values.

LOL. What was it? 60 pages i think was left after Jefferson took out the razor.

[chrisb01]

You yourself have already stated you do not believe the bible word for word, you already realize there are absurdities in it,

Show me where I did! I don't remember saying and/or posting such a thing.

I do remember saying I believe the whole Bible, and I do consider myself a Christian. I did say "I am not religious". You could be a Christian and not religious.

Rod, I believe there is only one God, and He is real. Not a figment of my imagination. I have read the Quran, I believe the Bible more. However, I'm not trying to push my believes on you or anyone else.

[Rod]

It all depends how you read it. I take some things literal and some things figurative.


Show me where I did! I don't remember saying and/or posting such a thing.

I do remember saying I believe the whole Bible, and I do consider myself a Christian. I did say "I am not religious". You could be a Christian and not religious.

Rod, I believe there is only one God, and He is real. Not a figment of my imagination. I have read the Quran, I believe the Bible more. However, I'm not trying to push my believes on you or anyone else.

You said you thought the bible is not literal, that some is figurative. Looking a lot like doubt about the varacity of the bible too me. At least with literal believers, you know where you stand. With the cherry pickers, the rules and beliefs can change mid stream, and usually to suit themselves. How i read your statement is: you believe what you want, the rest is figurative. Somehow, it seems dishonest too me.....

[Chicago Discus]

I believe that all religions and "gods" are good and bad. What I tell my son is this imagine a big circle and place all the worlds religions around the circle and you are in the middle. He seems to understand it.................................Josie

[chrisb01]

You said you thought the bible is not literal, that some is figurative. Looking a lot like doubt about the varacity of the bible too me. At least with literal believers, you know where you stand. With the cherry pickers, the rules and beliefs can change mid stream, and usually to suit themselves. How i read your statement is: you believe what you want, the rest is figurative. Somehow, it seems dishonest too me.....

No, Rod, you're misunderstanding me. I believe the whole Bible is true. By the figurative thing, I meant there are things that need to be interpreted and are hard to understand. But I do believe the whole Bible.

I have no doubt at all about the veracity of the whole Bible, I believe it is the inerrant word of God. And who can understand the mind of God?

[mmorris]

So you did that with Howard Zinn and Thomas J. DiLorenzo?
I never said the Bible was evidence. You either believe the Bible or you don't, it's that simple.

What happened Martha? You saw you couldn't get to me with negative US history and turned to the Bible and archeology?
I do that instinctively, with everything I read. It's automatic.

You don't need to 'say' the Bible is evidence. You use it as evidence. There seems to be no inclination here to investigate whether something is accurately reported or not. In order to maintain your worldview, including your politics, you have to disregard a lot of evidence. I'm not interested in 'getting to you.' You can't expect to post your religious beliefs and remain unchallenged.
Here's a book you will enjoy: David M. Rohl, A Test of Time: The Bible - From Myth to History. He tries to demonstrate that the lack of evidence supporting the stories in the bible are because the archaeologists have the dating system all wrong, and he uses the bible as evidence. His theories got a lot of attention but little support.

[chrisb01]

You don't need to 'say' the Bible is evidence. You use it as evidence. There seems to be no inclination here to investigate whether something is accurately reported or not. In order to maintain your worldview, including your politics, you have to disregard a lot of evidence.

Well, in my search for truth, I have not been convinced that the Bible is not true. However, I have read Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Friedrich Nietzsche, the Quran, how much more anti-Christian and anti-Bible can you get. I will also look into the books you have suggested.

But by the same token, on the other side of the fence, some works have been overlooked in favor of the more negative. I'm referring to the works of historians of old such as Flavius Josephus, Pliny the Elder, P. Cornelius Tacitus, and such. These were secular historians who's writings give some veracity to the Biblical text and accounts. And they lived back in those days, and were not Christian believers.


I'm not interested in 'getting to you.'

OK, I'm glad to hear that, thanks. I have a lot of respect for you, as I do for Rod and many others here at SD.


You can't expect to post your religious beliefs and remain unchallenged.

Again, I am not a religious person. And when I do post my Christian believes, it is not trying to push them on anybody. But yes, I do expect some opposition. This is not only here, you should be around for some of our Thanksgiving dinners. I have relatives that go from one extreme to the other, but I get it in stereo to say the least :-)


Here's a book you will enjoy: David M. Rohl, A Test of Time: The Bible - From Myth to History. He tries to demonstrate that the lack of evidence supporting the stories in the bible are because the archaeologists have the dating system all wrong, and he uses the bible as evidence. His theories got a lot of attention but little support.

Thanks I will look into it, as I will Howard Zinn and Thomas J. DiLorenzo. I do like to read and see documentaries about what others with different views and/or believes have to say. And I do it with an open mind, other wise I will not get any benefit from it. I have found some good things in the Quran, but I discard the bad and the negative.

[mmorris]

1) What is a religious person?
2) What are Christian values?

[MSD]

I'm more the Bill Marr type when it comes to religions. They are run by people and are therefore not perfect and have been used by people for the purpose of making money or seeking control, or just zealots that are disturbed. However to each his own and believe what you believe, I'd never try and change a person's belief system

[brewmaster15]

Personally I think Religious Views should be politely kept to ones self... I don't want someone forcing their beliefs on me or questioning mine...and I won't force my religious Beliefs on them or question theirs...Its a kind of mutual respect thing. We all have different views on religion in some form or another.... and we all have the same chance of knowing if our beliefs are more accurate than someone elses.... too bad you don't find out until the show is over.

al

[chrisb01]

I'm more the Bill Marr type when it comes to religions. They are run by people and are therefore not perfect and have been used by people for the purpose of making money or seeking control, or just zealots that are disturbed. However to each his own and believe what you believe, I'd never try and change a person's belief system

I've never heard of Bill Marr, you must mean Bill Maher!

If you are the Bill Maher type, I feel sorry for you. And that's not just because of his degrading of religion. Though I don't agree with most of his views, which don't even make sense, I am not a religious person myself and neither was Jesus Christ.

Bill Maher also degrades Christianity and God. With him, I believe, it is something personal between him and God.

But besides that the few times I have watched his show, I can tell by the way he answers some of other people's questions, the way he treats some of his guess, and at times his own rhetoric, he is either a disturbed and/or unhappy person. He is like a clown, laughing on the outside and begging for help on the inside.


1) What is a religious person?
2) What are Christian values?

Martha, here you go again with the gotcha questions.

It is evident at this point, that no matter what I say, you will find something to contradict me with. If you believe that a Christian is synonymous with religious, then no matter what I say, it is not going to change your mind.

However, again, I am very interested in looking into the books you suggested, provided my local public library has them or can order them from another branch.

[mmorris]

They aren't 'gotcha' questions. It would be interesting to understand how you are using the expressions.

[chrisb01]

They aren't 'gotcha' questions. It would be interesting to understand how you are using the expressions.

WOW, you mean that after you trashed me all over the thread, now you come to admit that you didn't even know what I was talking about?

[pcsb23]

This thread will lead where all other similar threads do which is a fall out. Al did try and get the message through ...

Personally I think Religious Views should be politely kept to ones self...
I am less subtle. Thread closed.