Discus peppering - yay or nay?

[mojie]

Hi

I'm relatively new to discus but am loving them. I've read a lot on the forum re peppering on pigeon bloods. Having bought a couple of pb's with a little peppering that I quite like - I was wondering what the big deal is? Why is peppering perceived so negatively? Is it that a little peppering is supposed to be nice, but that a lot takes away from the main coloration of the fish? Or - is it just a matter of personal opinion?

Cheers

[warblad79]

its just a matter of preferences, but for me I don't personally like PB due to peppering, I'm a spotted fish guy.

[Dennis The Mennis]

It is a preference thing. I like the pepering on PB's as long as it isn't too heavy.

[ShinShin]

Actually, it is a quality thing. PB's were full of soot in the beginning. It took a lot of selective breeding to get a really clean PB on the market. That's why many people cringe when they see some of the pairings people are throwing together today by those that don't know the history of discus.

Mat

[damba]

I like pbs. They are nice colourful fish. My pair are pretty spot free.http://img.tapatalk.com/b26e9284-ba9b-5170.jpg

Sent from my GT-I5800 using Tapatalk

[Squidman]

A nice pigeon can be beautiful. These are two new ones I got from Kenny. However, I would think a splattering of black spots would detract from their overall appearance. But at the end of the day, if you like the peppering on yours, that's really all that should matter. There are plenty of "show" quality fish that don't do a thing for me, everyone has their preferences.

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l362/BatBucket27/Discus/DSC_0314-1.jpg

http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l362/BatBucket27/Discus/DSC_0308-1.jpg

[typicalalex1]

Its purely personal preference. I have a white dragon discus that i bought off someone and the peppering on it is intense.
The top 1/5 of the fish is solid pepper but it looks brillient. It has turned the top of the fish silver.

[ericatdallas]

If you like looking at it, then don't worry about it. I have more pigeons than anything else and the pepering on mine is minimal (you have to look really hard to see for some).

[Cevoe]

Personally I don't like peppering and I also believe it is a quality thing.
If there was a choice between identical fish with one being peppered and the other one not being peppered at all which would you choose?
I have a few pigeons and even the ones with slight peppering get under my skin.
Just when I swear them off I'll see one of the sponsors post a new list and see one that knocks me out.
I believe it was Kenny's Discus that had super checkerboards last month that were super looking.

[John_Nicholson]

Most people just think it looks like crap. The fish is just as healthy, will grow just as large, it is just that you can't sale them because there is very little demand for them.

-john

[warblad79]

I used to have Red Dragon PB and I wanted to sell it but nobody wants it so I traded it with a smaller Discus.

[mojie]

Whoa awesome pics. Thanks for the info guys.

[gerrard00]

My PBs all have some peppering. When they were smaller and and I had dark substrate in my tank, the peppering was more heavy. I always said that it didn't bother me. Then I switched out the flourite for lighter color sand and their peppering lessened. Since then, peppering has bothered me more. Ha!

[brewmaster15]

Depends on your Goal with the fish...If you like the look of them no problem if they are in your tanks, its your tank....problem comes when you try to sell them or breed them or show them. The Hobby has bred the pepper out moved towards a clean non-peppered Pb as the standard.....so thats what most expect and what will determine how they see your peppered pb.

hth,
al

[mi-ko]

Hi. I am wondering about black coloring often on the edge of fins. It's not spotted just solid black. When I ask sellers about it, they always say that the black color will go away when they grow up. But I see the same thing on mature discus. Do they show black color on their body or fins when they are stressed?

Sachio

[jerman]

Hi. I am thinking of getting some PB's because they look so amazing, but I guess I am a bit hesitant because I do not like the peppering. So the question is, if a pb has no peppering, will it develop peppering later on as it matures. My tank is heavily planted, will the relatively dark tank cause a pepper free pb to develop ?peppering

[typicalalex1]

Dark backgrounds and dark substrates cause peppering but this is not always the case.

I bought a group of discus last month and one of them was heavily peppered. They were all kept in a BB tank so there was no dark substrate or background.
The water in the tank i bought them from could have been better and i think that is what caused the peppering.

Give them plenty of fresh water and feed them well and they should be fine.

[ShinShin]

Here's a way to tell if its a quality or personal thing: Look at the PB's at any major discus show in Asia and see how many professional breeders enter PB's with pepper. Breeders have gone to great lengths to eliminate pepper from PB strains to give us quality discus. Look at the PB's and MR's, for example, of yesterday and compare them today's fish. Yesterday's fish would get laughed out of a major discus show. It is obvious by some of the replies in threads like this that newcomers have no idea of the PB history.

Mat

[JenTN]

Here's a way to tell if its a quality or personal thing: Look at the PB's at any major discus show in Asia and see how many professional breeders enter PB's with pepper. Breeders have gone to great lengths to eliminate pepper from PB strains to give us quality discus. Look at the PB's and MR's, for example, of yesterday and compare them today's fish. Yesterday's fish would get laughed out of a major discus show. It is obvious by some of the replies in threads like this that newcomers have no idea of the PB history.

Mat

Is it not like a pb dog and consisered a flaw? That is my take. If u are happy with peppering its fine, but one shouldnt really breed a heavily peppered fish because you are putting fish out there that are far away from what breeders have worked for? Thats my take, dont flame me too hard Im a noob lol.

[Splash156]

Is this what you call peppered?

72231

[TNT77]

Is this what you call peppered?

72231
Yep.

[TNT77]

Dark backgrounds and dark substrates cause peppering but this is not always the case.

I bought a group of discus last month and one of them was heavily peppered. They were all kept in a BB tank so there was no dark substrate or background.
The water in the tank i bought them from could have been better and i think that is what caused the peppering.

Give them plenty of fresh water and feed them well and they should be fine.
Dark backgrounds, substrate, breeding, and stress can enhance peppering just like it can darken regular colors in discus. But peppering comes from genetics. Some pb are just peppered no matter what you do.

[Larry Bugg]

Hi. I am wondering about black coloring often on the edge of fins. It's not spotted just solid black. When I ask sellers about it, they always say that the black color will go away when they grow up. But I see the same thing on mature discus. Do they show black color on their body or fins when they are stressed?

Sachio

Well you can have dark fins from peppering but you can also naturally have dark fins. These dark fins are called halos and depending on the strain are sought after. Wild discus will often have very nice halos.

[TNT77]

Hi. I am wondering about black coloring often on the edge of fins. It's not spotted just solid black. When I ask sellers about it, they always say that the black color will go away when they grow up. But I see the same thing on mature discus. Do they show black color on their body or fins when they are stressed?

Sachio
The black fins is part of peppering in pb strains. I have had some lighten in different environments but never disappear and go clear.

[discus day]

Here's a way to tell if its a quality or personal thing: Look at the PB's at any major discus show in Asia and see how many professional breeders enter PB's with pepper. Breeders have gone to great lengths to eliminate pepper from PB strains to give us quality discus. Look at the PB's and MR's, for example, of yesterday and compare them today's fish. Yesterday's fish would get laughed out of a major discus show. It is obvious by some of the replies in threads like this that newcomers have no idea of the PB history.

Mat


may say its a quality thing but it really is personal its just more prefer pb without the spot. it the situation were reverse then peppering would be good and fish with alot would be higher "quality". lets say we do manage to breed all the peppering out in a few decades and suddenly theres no more peppered fish and the market for them is reverse and they are wanted would a pepper fish be high quality then?

to me quality is more of the fishes health since color is base on personal preference. and yes shows have standers but some show discus may not meet MY personal standers so whos to really say what the "quality" of a fish really is. if its healthy and you like it then it will do.

[ShinShin]

And here's why experienced discus people get frustrated with trying to "pass it on". I am sure all of the Asian and German discus breeders will be filling your PM box after reading that. lol No one is arguing that if you like it then it will do. We are discussing what quality is and isn't. Ever see a do or cat show? Been to a pigeon show? Any type of fish show than discus? How about Koi or guppy shows? If you have, then you will see the point.

Mat

[discus day]

And here's why experienced discus people get frustrated with trying to "pass it on". I am sure all of the Asian and German discus breeders will be filling your PM box after reading that. lol No one is arguing that if you like it then it will do. We are discussing what quality is and isn't. Ever see a do or cat show? Been to a pigeon show? Any type of fish show than discus? How about Koi or guppy shows? If you have, then you will see the point.

Mat

i actually have seen these pet shows and my point is what most call "top quality" isnt really fitted for that. its all on the eyes of the behlder thats why there are multiple judge with different score cards. if i were a judge and i love pepper on discus and i were to have my own competition does that mean all those who enters without peppering are lower quality?

i understand that the patern color shape and all does atribute to it but to say peppering is a trait of bad quality doesnt fly with me. yes breeders works hard to get the peppering out which means alot of work but if the same fish cant breed and doesnt reach full potential and is deform due to in breeding does that mean its still better quality than the peppered pb?

[TNT77]

i actually have seen these pet shows and my point is what most call "top quality" isnt really fitted for that. its all on the eyes of the behlder thats why there are multiple judge with different score cards. if i were a judge and i love pepper on discus and i were to have my own competition does that mean all those who enters without peppering are lower quality?

i understand that the patern color shape and all does atribute to it but to say peppering is a trait of bad quality doesnt fly with me. yes breeders works hard to get the peppering out which means alot of work but if the same fish cant breed and doesnt reach full potential and is deform due to in breeding does that mean its still better quality than the peppered pb?
Where do you get that they can't breed, don't reach their full potential, and are deformed? Where ever that info came from is a bit off to say the least. Would love to see where this is documented from.

[discus day]

Where do you get that they can't breed, don't reach their full potential, and are deformed? Where ever that info came from is a bit off to say the least. Would love to see where this is documented from.

i said "if"

[TNT77]

i said "if"
The "If" you are talking about isnt quality. Why are you trying to put quality pigeons and non quality on the same level. It doesnt matter if they are deformed and clean they are a deformed fish. There is no way to compare that. If they dont reach their full potential that is not the fishes fault...so yes it "could" have been of higher quality or potential under different conditions. And yes peppering is a bad quality. To set a strain you have to set a guideline for a certain color or pattern for that strain to be defined. If there are not certain set traits to follow then there is nothing to set a standard against.

[nc0gnet0]

Well you can have dark fins from peppering but you can also naturally have dark fins.

Can you? It was always my understanding the pepper we see in the pigeon bloods was due to a gene mutation that affected the stress bars in such a way that they appeared as "pepper" but seeing that stress bars don't appear in the finnage of non pb fish, why would they in Pigeon bloods?

As for the peppered pigeon bloods, it is and always will be less desirable than the clean pigeon blood.

[TNT77]

Can you? It was always my understanding the pepper we see in the pigeon bloods was due to a gene mutation that affected the stress bars in such a way that they appeared as "pepper" but seeing that stress bars don't appear in the finnage of non pb fish, why would they in Pigeon bloods?

As for the peppered pigeon bloods, it is and always will be less desirable than the clean pigeon blood.
My understanding is..and this may be oversimplifying..that the barring is dispersed through the fish's body..and that underlying pigment from the body effects fin coloration. I may be wrong on this but this is what I've been told.

[nc0gnet0]

My understanding is..and this may be oversimplifying..that the barring is dispersed through the fish's body..and that underlying pigment from the body effects fin coloration. I may be wrong on this but this is what I've been told.

I understand that is the common explanation. I just feel there are other factors at play, and the term "pepper" is becoming too generic a term. I have seen many a clean red melon or marlboro red with black fins, these I would not call peppered. I have also seen a scale or two of a color other than black on a fish that did not belong, such as an orange or yellow spot on a white bodied fish.

[TNT77]

I understand that is the common explanation. I just feel there are other factors at play, and the term "pepper" is becoming too generic a term. I have seen many a clean red melon or marlboro red with black fins, these I would not call peppered. I have also seen a scale or two of a color other than black on a fish that did not belong, such as an orange or yellow spot on a white bodied fish.
Yes they may be clean looking...but the peppering is still there. Did we breed the stress bars out of them no. Just get one extremely stressed or have a major darkening in substrate and you will see the peppering come out in them. Its still there. It just has been bred so other pigments show over the bars.

[TNT77]

I understand that is the common explanation. I just feel there are other factors at play, and the term "pepper" is becoming too generic a term. I have seen many a clean red melon or marlboro red with black fins, these I would not call peppered. I have also seen a scale or two of a color other than black on a fish that did not belong, such as an orange or yellow spot on a white bodied fish.
And yes I do agree that the term peppering is used as too much of a general term.

[nc0gnet0]

For instance Tara, the fish in your avatar....is blue pigmentation on the white body pepper? Explain why you feel it is or isn't.

[TNT77]

For instance Tara, the fish in your avatar....is blue pigmentation on the white body pepper? Explain why you feel it is or isn't.
I feel it isnt..but there are others who say it is because the peppering is just of a different color than black from breeding to BD. He did have black peppering on his nose..unless he had two colors of peppering lol. When he was stressed he would get black peppering on his body..even over the blue. So was the blue just a pigment or peppering. But as I said I agree with you that peppering is used as too general of a term.

[Chicago Discus]

Another one for the short bus tank......LOL

[TNT77]

Another one for the short bus tank......LOL
Lol no way. He is my favorite fish. :p

[Chicago Discus]

Im just kidding I had to say that you are the only one that would get it LOL

[TNT77]

Im just kidding I had to say that you are the only one that would get it LOL
Lol plus I didnt save his body. He has been dead for about 6 or so years now.

[Chicago Discus]

LOL I had to say that because i knew you are the only one that would get it

[discus day]

Here's my view on it. I may be wring since you experts don't agreed but its how I see it. Peppering is a gene from pb so if you breed it out of pb its genetically altered and its no longer a pb. I like my pb with a few spot here and there. But that's me. You guys might see it different but that's my .2

[JenTN]

i actually have seen these pet shows and my point is what most call "top quality" isnt really fitted for that. its all on the eyes of the behlder thats why there are multiple judge with different score cards. if i were a judge and i love pepper on discus and i were to have my own competition does that mean all those who enters without peppering are lower quality?

i understand that the patern color shape and all does atribute to it but to say peppering is a trait of bad quality doesnt fly with me. yes breeders works hard to get the peppering out which means alot of work but if the same fish cant breed and doesnt reach full potential and is deform due to in breeding does that mean its still better quality than the peppered pb?

No no..go to akc page..judges are required to judge to the standard..not their opinion on what they like. Go to www.akc.org

[TNT77]

Here's my view on it. I may be wring since you experts don't agreed but its how I see it. Peppering is a gene from pb so if you breed it out of pb its genetically altered and its no longer a pb. I like my pb with a few spot here and there. But that's me. You guys might see it different but that's my .2
We did not breed out the peppering. I see you didnt read my other post. The peppering is still there. We have not created a new mutated pigeon. The peppering is still there. But we have bred them so other pigments are more dominant than the peppering. It is still there underneath. Just stress out a pb and you will see. We have not genetically altered them so the peppering went "poof gone". We just bred them so the pigments that were naturally underneath the peppering show over the peppering. Its their stress bars. We just picked the fish that showed them less and bred them. How is that any different than any other strain?

[discus day]

Tara the way you put it makes more sense but I still have a problem with saying that a pb with peppering is a lower quality. But That's me. And Jen yes there's a guidelines but its the judges opinion whether the dog meets those guidelines or not.

[Matt0matic]

Discus peppering - yay or nay?

Nay.

[shoveltrash]

another *nay*
jmho though - to each his own!

[Larry Bugg]

NAY

[ShinShin]

discus day - I just noticed that you,a newbie with absolutely no knowledge of the pigeonblood discus, has yet thrown out yet more absurdity on yet another topic (referring to the w/c advice on another thread). Research what pepper is caused by, then you will feel the need to delete your posts. Why do you insist on attacking knowledgeable discus people when you do not know $hit about anything? I will give you a hint - it is not a gene that causes pepper. Breeding out the pepper does not alter the genetic make-up of PB's. lol

Mat

The blue in Tara's avatar is not pepper. Pepper is black and only black, which is determined by what really causes pepper.

[Ru2on]

I am a newbie so can't comment on anything except personal taste , I saw my first peppered discus on a Facebook post and I thought the discus was sick with mould all over it, Also seems to make sense that their are standards to compare against just as there are standards for my pure bred puppy.? yes I am a newbie so just reading and learning but personally would not buy a discus with peppering as in my eyes it makes the discus look mouldy and sick ! Thanks for all the informative posts this site is filled with food for my brain :)

[aquadon2222]

It's really a matter of opinion. It's my understanding that peppering and black fins are nature's way of trying to re-create some camouflage that exists as dark coloring and/or stress bars in the discus species that has been selectively bred out. I think that's why dark substrate makes it come out more. Albino's lack the gene to produce the pigment. I personally don't like peppering - it looks like the fish is "dirty" to me.