My Planted Tank Experience

[ericatdallas]

This was inspired by the stories told in other threads/topics of how people tried a planted tank and learned some valuable yet expensive lessons. Hopefully it will be a collection of stories (in one easy to find place) from people who started a planted Discus tank and converted to BB after realizing its advantages. The hope is that a new hobbyist will learn from our mistakes. I suppose someone could share a planted tank success story as well. I'm sure we're all eager to read one and learn from that as well. There's been a few threads where people come out and admit their past failures, but they're so well hidden in other topics, it is hard for new members to find.

This is my story of how I started a 75G planted tank with 265W CFL lighting. I kept a combination of fast growing plants (hygros, anacharis, etc) and some slower growing plants (wendtii and some others). My tank mates were snails, cories, otos, and plecos (to help keep the excess food to a minimum). I used natural colored gravel. I kept the temperature at mid-to-high 80's. I had my lights on a timer (forgot the exact schedule) but it was about 12/12 on/off. I had a Fluval 405, a Whisper 60, and a dual sponge filter. So my bio- and mechanical filtration was more than adequate. I was worried about the flow at one point, but I know from my BB tank that when the Discus are healthy, they aren't bothered my the heavy water movement. In fact, in another thread, I pointed out my Discus enjoyed spending time right under the HOB filter or swimming up to the hose as water was filling the tank.

I chose to ignore the advice of the SD members here and this is what happened... Mistake #1. I could tell from my old posts that I had tunnel vision and no matter what anyone said to me, I was going to go planted. There was no changing my mind.

I was certain I wanted a planted tank. After all, they look nicer and the plants would 'clean' the water. Against the advice of the members here, I jumped right in and bought 6 juvenile Discus from a local breeder for $10 each. They were about 1-1.5" each. What a great deal! I was going to raise them and make them 'show quality' discus. The people here obviously were stuck in their ways. I had been keeping fish for YEARS! I knew what I was doing. Mistake #2 was jumping right in without fully understanding what I was getting into. In fact, I had read all the advice against planted tanks here, but didn't post about my plan until AFTER I had already bought the Discus.

Mistake #3 was thinking I was different than all the other people who had tried this BEFORE me. In my original posts, I saw (and remember) that I had tried to find other threads like my situation. Having been here for a while, I know that LOTS of people try what I do ALL the time and it's not unique at all.

At first, things weren't too bad. I changed the water 2 times per day at about 25-50% (depending on my mood). I made sure to clean the gravel, section-by-section (each day I would clean a different part). I also knew I had to feed my BH mix and my earthworm flakes a lot to help with growth. No problem, between the plants and my twice daily cleanings, I knew it would work. This was when I was doing them from buckets only. So make no mistake, I was willing to put the work in and I was dedicated.

...and for a while it did work. I had two bully Discus that ate everything while the others hid from them and found their way behind drift wood, inside caves, and between plants. After a while, the big ones kept growing and the small ones ...well stayed small.

I checked my nitrates, ammonia, nitrites BEFORE and AFTER (EVERY) WC (I still have the ridiculous spreadsheet). ZERO ammonia, ZERO nitrites, and less than 5ppm nitrates at ALL times. Then cleaning my tank one day, the weakest of the small discus got sucked by my siphon. Casualty one. It was so weak it couldn't outrun the siphon (not normal!).

A week or so later, another one swam behind a rock and died. Crap.

Another day, one just turned upside down and died... dang! I forgot what happened to the fourth one, but I had two left when I finally decided to get more.

So now I had to go back to the breeder and buy more. He cracked a joke and said, "I love beginners, it allows me to afford my hobby <wink>" He gave me some advice, threw in a few free Discus. I ended up picking up 15 with the expectation that half would die. A week earlier, I had bought a 75G and kept it BB. I decided to listen to the advice here --- and to do it RELIGIOUSLY!

I ended up only losing ONE Discus from the 15 that I bought (I believe it was too over-feeding, I fed out of schedule in the middle of the night and the next day it was bloated). I would like to mention that the two that did survive from the first batch ended up dying shortly after I moved them to the BB tank. I ended up selling 10 (TEN) of the other Discus. Although my Discus aren't show quality, I can confidently say they are well above the quality that a lot of other local hobbyists have and much better than any I've seen grownout (from juvies to adult) in a planted tank.

As for my planted tank. I forgot to mention that due to my excessive feeding that the gravel had leeches and worms (remember, nitrates/nitrites/ammonia were perfect but that doesn't mean my gravel was 'clean'). Well, I did a thorough cleaning after Discus died and I accidentally unleashed pockets of gases and mulm from the gravel. The tank clouded up quickly. I thought I had managed, but it caused a MASSIVE ammonia spike and killed my plecos, otos, and cories. After that, I tore down the tank, threw away the plants and gravel. Not to say I won't try again, but maybe when I have more time and more experience...

That's my planted tank story... hope someone can learn from my mistakes. Best advice, listen to your elders ;)

So looking back, what happened? Well, for starters, it's not just about water quality... it also has to do with the psychology of the fish and feeling safe. The intense light might have made the weaker fish more shy. They also backed down when it was feeding time. Also, there are probably a lot of things that happened that I was too inexperienced to recognize.

Am I saying planted growout tanks are IMPOSSIBLE? Not at all, I'm just saying if you're new to Discus, you might want to learn what MOST people do for growout tanks BEFORE you try a planted tank. In a few years, I might try again. The trauma and hard work it took still haunts me. I might fail in the future, but at least, then I'll do it knowing full well what I am seeing. It'll also give me perspective when I see the Discus aren't doing well and I will be quicker at recognizing the symptoms (obvious for experienced hobbyists, not so much for inexperienced discus keepers).

I wish I had a picture of my Discus from the first batch. They were sickly looking... even from an inexperienced eye, I could see there was something not right. Looking back at my old posts, I probably made other mistakes as well that I wouldn't today. I also wouldn't have made those mistakes if I had just listened to the people here and either bought adults for my planted tank or raised my discus in BB as originally advised.

This is a shot of them at 5-7 months (can't remember when this picture was taken)...

http://www.lamspot.com/discus/group1.JPG

Here's a shot of my Discus at about 10 months (the albino is not a growout)... again, not show quality, but better than the first batch... DEAD. This was b/c I did BB, fed the way members here advised, and switched to 75-90% DAILY WC.

http://www.lamspot.com/aquarium/Discus/390536_540729742539_143801387_31064000_1300990816_ n.jpg

I ended up selling the rest of the blues, but I still have the tangerines (it's been well over a year now since).

[judy]

My planted tank story is similar to Erics's in some respects. I've kept discus for about 25 years, and at the beginning, started with a planted tank, 78 gallons, and half a dozen discus. That tank was a horrendous amount of work, with huge water changes (bucket brigade 3X a week for eighty percent) and religious substrate vacuuming (a third at a time), and even with that the nitrate levels crept up, and up ... and up. And one day, the beautiful little fish I had raised to adulthood just started keeling over and dying. Nitrate tests, which I had not done for months because hey, look how clean I keep my tank, showed levels thru the roof. Only then did I look into nitrate and discus and discover that at a certain point it's horribly hard on discus. Fatal, in my case.
From there, I continued to keep a planted tank with community fish who seem to do just fine in planted tanks. Eventually I could not resist the pull of discus, but watched the nitrates as well, and my fish did fine for years, even pairing off and spawning. But damn, it was a ridiculous amount of work. I began to hate it. When I finally upgraded to a 125, I went BB and potted all my plants.
Now, cleaning the tank bottom is a piece of cake (I could not believe the crud even my well-kept substrate unleashed when I emptied out the 78), the potted plants look great and are flourishing with their in-pot fertilizer, I don't need to supplement the water with ferts-- and that means far less likelihood of algae (the tank is spotless), I can re-landscape instantly if the mood strikes, the fish seem even healthier (a subjective impression, but I swear they are more perky), don't seem in the least bit perturbed at missing substrate, and I actually love doing WCs because it is so easy.
For those who want planted tanks, oh, yes it can work. And if having that substrate for the plants is so important aesthetically, then it can work also. But the amount of work you have to put into it really spoiled the joy of the tank for me. I would never go back. At the very most, I might put a very thin layer of pool filter sand down, just for appearance. I have some in a couple of buckets stashed away. But... well, I'm happy with the tank now. And if it ain't broke, why fix it? Here's the new... and the old 78 with its substrate removed.

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff438/waytiuk/plantscape.jpg

http://i1235.photobucket.com/albums/ff438/waytiuk/discus_20110614_0012.jpg

[yim11]

Thank you very much for this great info Eric!

Another great post:

I wanted a planted tank, so I ignored the advice I read here and threw 2.5 inch juvies into a newly planted tank. I figured daily water changes weren't really necessary and the people on this forum were just "over the top".

After a month or so, I decided to do some daily water changes due to some illness and the behavior of the fish changed dramatically. Their appetites went up and they became way more active. In the end, I spent a year plus constantly trying to keep the tank clean and food bits out of the plants and substrate. Sometimes it almost seemed like the fish were purposefully spitting little bits of food into the plants! The discus were OK as I was constantly changing water, but the plants hated it and never really grew. My nitrates never got above 10ppm, but there was a ton of organic material floating in the tank and my guys were less active and less aggressive eaters if I ever skipped one day's water change. That's the thing, I went into the whole planted tank thing thinking it would lead to "almost no work", but it wound up being a lot more work than if I had gone BB.

Now, about 16 months into the journey, I'm more comfortable with my planted tank. I only do wcs 2-3 times a week, I only feed beefheart and other messy food before wcs and I feed less food overall. I'm happy with it now that they are adults, but there's no way that I'd ever raise juvies in a planted tank again. Never again!

As for creating a natural environment, I encourage you to read more about what their habitat actually looks like. Here's one good article:

http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/content.php?sid=2724

I think you'll find that the typical discus planted tank with submersed plants like swords (like the tank I have) is in no way a natural environment. I like my plants, but they are definitely in the tank for me and not the fish.

[jrman83]

New here and my first post. Was reading through some of the stickys.

I must say that it is surprising to read about going against a planted tank. I have been keeping heavily planted (T5HO lighting, CO2, fert dosing, etc) tanks for about 2yrs now. I have 5 tanks total with 2 of them being 125g, 1-75g and a couple of smaller ones. I was thinking of starting a 90G (not set on the size quite yet) in a few months, heavily planting it with mostly low light plants, natural substrate, CO2, low end side of medium level lighting and minimal ferts. I wanted to go with 4-5 Discus and a decent size school of probably Cardinal Tetras.

Are you telling me that nobody has a successful planted Discus tank and the majority of the site members recommend against it? If I felt I couldn't plant the tank, although the ideas of the pics in the post above is pretty cool (great looking tank), I wouldn't do it. I love the look of Discus, but IMO fish do not make a tank and a tank of fish with nothing else is boring to me.....no offense to anyone here I hope. I have no intention of breeding.

Anyway, just looking around and doing some reading. I will just make it a 40B Cory breeding tank if I go against the Discus idea.

[ericatdallas]

New here and my first post. Was reading through some of the stickys.

Thanks for reading the stickies! :)


I must say that it is surprising to read about going against a planted tank.

Yes, that's why this thread was started b/c a new thread regarding planted tanks is started almost weekly :)


Are you telling me that nobody has a successful planted Discus tank and the majority of the site members recommend against it? If I felt I couldn't plant the tank, although the ideas of the pics in the post above is pretty cool (great looking tank), I wouldn't do it. I love the look of Discus, but IMO fish do not make a tank and a tank of fish with nothing else is boring to me.....no offense to anyone here I hope. I have no intention of breeding.

Hmm... I think pretty much everyone recommends AGAINST growout tanks (starting with juveniles). I'm not sure what ratio is for or against Discus in planted tanks when they're adults. One big issue is that most new keepers buy juveniles to save money, then try to grow them out in a planted tank.

[sunrise]

Hi! I didn't realize that a planted tank wasn't such a good idea. I've had one for about three years. Two of those years I've had discus in it. They were about 3'' at purchase time. Is that considered juvenile? Anyway, they've grown and seem to be okay. Haven't lost any. Course, there's only three in a 75 gallon and one angel fish. Vacuuming the gravel is time consuming but, oh well.
Now I understand why I see so many pictures of BB tanks. Wondered about that.

Laura

[yim11]

Hi! I didn't realize that a planted tank wasn't such a good idea.

It's not that it isn't a good idea, I think adult discus in a planted tank are a beautiful sight to see. Perhaps said differently: Trying to raise 2-3" juvenile discus in a planted isn't such a good idea.

The BB tanks can provide more optimal conditions to get a 2-3" fish to planted tank size :)

[sunrise]

Is it also a bad idea to add juvenile discus to a planted tank that has adult discus already in the tank?

Laura

[Rudustin]

New to the forum but a substrate tank with under gravel filter and 125 gallons twenty years ago gave me the very same problems that Eric talks about in his thread! I had Wattley discus and one day after a water change everything died including the plants! It sent me downward spiraling into not keeping Discus until about two months ago. I have a 65 gallon BB with Swords in a cool imitation of a rock made from aquarium approved resin. The rock has many holes and I just stuck the roots of the swords in the holes and the plants are doing really well but even better the Juvenile discus are doing great and I have perfect water tests and it is a joy to clean up the poop! I have to be careful not to overfeed regardless. Even the scraping of algae off the tank walls is easier without a substrate. My discus are doing well and are hungry all the time!!! They are growing very quickly. Have another 20 gallon long with two adults and they are huge! All of my tanks, including another twenty long and a small five gallon with rams in it are all bare bottom. I've seen planted tanks and they are beautiful but for me the BB is the best.

[Rudustin]

My experience with adding juvenile discus to full adults in planted or not planted tanks gets a little hairy because the big ones bully the little ones so much that they hide most of the time and get little if enough to eat.

[ericatdallas]

Is it also a bad idea to add juvenile discus to a planted tank that has adult discus already in the tank?

Laura


My experience with adding juvenile discus to full adults in planted or not planted tanks gets a little hairy because the big ones bully the little ones so much that they hide most of the time and get little if enough to eat.

that's my opinion too... based on my experience, the little discus -will- hide if given the opportunity. This really reduces the number of opportunities they have to feed. Right now, I have seven adult discus with two juvies in one tank (I got the juvies from someone else along with some adults as a group) and they're doing okay. They still get picked on, but they prefer to stay with the group still and will eat pretty well when I feed them. If they were allowed to hide, they probably wouldn't get as much food (just whatever floats their way. Now, they aggressively go after the food. When I had some Discus cones, a net that I dropped, and a PVC pipe in there (I was using it as a temporary breeding cone) the small ones were always trying to hide around them, near them, and in the PVC case I saw them trying to go into it (not wide enough but they tried).

Also, the lighting has to be taken into consideration for planted tanks. Especially with Albinos... if they're like other species (which I'm sure they are), their eyes are very sensitive to ALL light. So the more intense the light is, the more uncomfortable they will be. I'm not sure how fish eyes are different, but I imagine it's very similar to our understanding of mammailian eyes.

[rbarn]

1. ALWAYS put adults in planted tanks. "planted grow out tank" is just asking for headaches and usually just wont work.

2. You MUST be patient. If you had just started with the tank as a planted tank, got it established and balanced for months. Then you slowly raise the water temps up. Then you add adult discus. Over feeding is a problem with any fish tank.

We also dont know how stable your PH and water temps were through the water change routine or in the day light cycle as the plants absorb and release Co2 fluctuating water PH. Was your tank Co2 injected for PH stabilization ? Most people miss this on planted setups.

[sunrise]

Okay, you all are really scaring me now. I don't check the PH in my tank very often. I have two DIY in my 75 gallon and I turn on a bubbler at night because I'm afraid they will run out of oxygen.( My daughter lost a couple of discus because of lack of oxygen.) I'm sure that must cause a fluctuation in PH, right?
Maybe I'm not scientific enough to keep discus. LOL.
Having said all that, the only other tank I have is a 20 gallon long. Is that big enough to keep 2 or 3 juvenile discus in for grow out?

Laura

[ExReefer]

Here is a simple story. The story begins with feeding your fish (something you can’t avoid). Some of that food gets absorbed by the fish as nutrients and some of it turns into waste. Some of it goes uneaten as well. Over time, uneaten food and waste will build up and degrade water quality. It does not “go away” if you use filters and it would take a great deal of fast growing nitrate hogging plants to make a dent in your nitrates. Basically, the waste gets removed by cleaning filter media and replacing water.

If you want to make it harder on yourself by trapping uneaten food/waste in your substrate, rocks, decor, etc. then you will have more work to do in this hobby. Again, it’s just more work, but it can be done. Many of us chose to go an easier route by using one or all the following methods:

1) bare bottom tanks (easier to locate the waste)
2) no decorations in the tanks (easier to locate the waste)
3) avoiding hard to clean filters (easier to squeeze out a sponge filter than it is to open up a canister filter)
4) feeding “clean” foods (beefheart is messy, freeze dried black worms are not)
5) keeping smaller populations of discus per tank (more fish, more food, more waste, more frequent cleaning)

The end.

[sunrise]

Here is a simple story. The story begins with feeding your fish (something you can’t avoid). Some of that food gets absorbed by the fish as nutrients and some of it turns into waste. Some of it goes uneaten as well. Over time, uneaten food and waste will build up and degrade water quality. It does not “go away” if you use filters and it would take a great deal of fast growing nitrate hogging plants to make a dent in your nitrates. Basically, the waste gets removed by cleaning filter media and replacing water.

If you want to make it harder on yourself by trapping uneaten food/waste in your substrate, rocks, decor, etc. then you will have more work to do in this hobby. Again, it’s just more work, but it can be done. Many of us chose to go an easier route by using one or all the following methods:

1) bare bottom tanks (easier to locate the waste)
2) no decorations in the tanks (easier to locate the waste)
3) avoiding hard to clean filters (easier to squeeze out a sponge filter than it is to open up a canister filter)
4) feeding “clean” foods (beefheart is messy, freeze dried black worms are not)
5) keeping smaller populations of discus per tank (more fish, more food, more waste, more frequent cleaning)

The end.

I feel like I've just been sat in the corner with a dunce cap on my head.:

[gerrard00]

Here is a simple story. The story begins with feeding your fish (something you can’t avoid). Some of that food gets absorbed by the fish as nutrients and some of it turns into waste. Some of it goes uneaten as well. Over time, uneaten food and waste will build up and degrade water quality. It does not “go away” if you use filters and it would take a great deal of fast growing nitrate hogging plants to make a dent in your nitrates. Basically, the waste gets removed by cleaning filter media and replacing water.

If you want to make it harder on yourself by trapping uneaten food/waste in your substrate, rocks, decor, etc. then you will have more work to do in this hobby. Again, it’s just more work, but it can be done. Many of us chose to go an easier route by using one or all the following methods:

1) bare bottom tanks (easier to locate the waste)
2) no decorations in the tanks (easier to locate the waste)
3) avoiding hard to clean filters (easier to squeeze out a sponge filter than it is to open up a canister filter)
4) feeding “clean” foods (beefheart is messy, freeze dried black worms are not)
5) keeping smaller populations of discus per tank (more fish, more food, more waste, more frequent cleaning)

The end.

Posts like yours are the kind that convinced me that I could grow out my juvies in a planted tank. If it was just a little more work, I was OK with that idea. I would just have to really do thorough gravel cleaning...no big deal. I thought that the people who went BB were just taking a short cut or an "easier route" as you say. It's not "just more work". Anyone reading the experiences detailed here can see that.

Perhaps you are just much better at this than I am and it wasn't as much of a challenge for you. Perhaps you had more experience with fish keeping before you got started. At any rate, I would wager that there are more people out there at my skill level who are going to have bigger problems than "just more work". Problems like sick fish, fish that are dark, fish that don't grow, plants that don't grow, etc.

I love my planted tank! I just wish I hadn't let advice like yours convince me to start out by doing a juvie growout in it.

[ExReefer]

I was trying to keep this simple. Fish tanks are closed systems (excluding drip tanks). What goes in must be removed at some point to keep water quality in check. The uneaten food and waste does not magically disappear (just becasue your water looks clear). Pretty simple concept in my opinion. I don't see how that's misleading or poor advice. If a beginner doesn't understand that uneaten food and waste must be removed by the hobbyist, then they have no business keeping discus in the first place. Whether or not substrate is used, the concept is the same. The only difference is the amount of work involved, like I said.

[gerrard00]

I was trying to keep this simple. Fish tanks are closed systems (excluding drip tanks). What goes in must be removed at some point to keep water quality in check. The uneaten food and waste does not magically disappear (just becasue your water looks clear). Pretty simple concept in my opinion. I don't see how that's misleading or poor advice. If a beginner doesn't understand that uneaten food and waste must be removed by the hobbyist, then they have no business keeping discus in the first place. Whether or not substrate is used, the concept is the same. The only difference is the amount of work involved, like I said.

We are all saying that it's not just a difference in the amount of work. You have every right to disagree with us. That's fine. All I can ask is that you actually read our experiences posted above and you'll see that we are saying it's much more than just the amount of work. In fact, if it were only a difference in the amount of work, this sticky wouldn't even be needed. There is another sticky that is about the difference in the amount of work! I'm saying that even if you do all of the additional work, you're setting yourself up with much more chance of failure. That's why this thread was added.

Perhaps you have had a different, contrasting experience? Feel free to share! I don't think it's helpful for you to come into the conversation and tell us that we are all wrong, "the end". I don't see how that is helpful to anyone.

Posts that suggested that it's only a matter of more work are what lead me to believe that I should grow my juvies out in a planted tank. I figured it was just a little more work dealing with a planted tank and the naysayers just didn't want to bother dealing with fertilizers and lights and things of that nature. I figured, "how hard could it be?". As long as I kept my nitrates below 10, I figured I'd be golden. I ignored the posts that stressed that growing out in a planted tank was going to be a huge challenge. I focused on the ones, like yours, that said it was just "more work", because that's what I wanted to believe. In all honesty, I believed people on other forums who said that SD members were maintenance obsessed and doing unnecessary changes. I wish I hadn't.

[ExReefer]

I think the sticky is a good idea to share experiences. However, I chose to believe the bad experiences occured from not putting in the proper amount of work. Work in this regard can mean many things: researching how to keep discus, changing water regularly, cleaning substrate regularly, cleaning filters, wiping down glass, etc. Success in this hobby requires a certain amount of work. For the beginner, there is more work as they have to spend time learning how to care for discus BEFORE actually starting a discus tank. I think the vast majority of failure in this hobby comes from people rushing into things and starting out with good intentions only to slowly cut back on their maintenance (i.e. work).

gerrardd00 - I don't know exactly why you failed as you did not share your personal experience. You mentioned keeping nitrates at less than 10ppm. That's important, but did you also clean your filters and substrate regularly? Did you overfeed your fish? Did you purchase high quality stock to begin with? Did you quarantine your stock first? Did you get them trained to eat high quality foods? All of those things require effort on your part and many of them have nothing do to with a planted tank. Placing healthy stock in a planted tank does not magically make them sick. Lack of work causes failure in this hobby.

[ExReefer]

My personal experiences:

I rushed into the hobby with poor quality stock from a LFS. I overfed my fish out of fear of stunting them. My tank was loaded with plants and under filtered. After a few weeks of daily WC’s and siphoning the substrate clean, I got lazy and cut back on maintenance. I continued to power feed my fish with messy foods like beef heart. The fish slowly lost their appetite due to poor water quality, got sick and eventually stunted. I gave some away and sold a few at a major discount.

I tried bare bottom with high quality stock. This method worked well and required the less work. I eventually got tired of the look and made another attempt at a planted tank. However this time, I did things differently:

1) tank is lightly planted with “easy” plants like crypts and anubias
2) tank has a very thin layer of pool filter sand
3) sand is cleaned at every other WC
4) tank is over filtered and filters are turned off turning every feeding
5) started out with larger, high quality discus (4-5” TL)
6) quarantined my discus for about 45 days
7) trained them to eat my offered foods and recognize me as their food source

My second attempt has been very successful. I’m thrilled with my results and I’m able to keep the look of a planted tank. If I wanted more plants, less filtration, or smaller discus, it would simply require more work on my part (which I'm not willing to do).

By the way, I do still keep some bare bottom tanks for grow out purposes. Planted tank is a display tank.

[ericatdallas]

I think the sticky is a good idea to share experiences. However, I chose to believe the bad experiences occured from not putting in the proper amount of work. Work in this regard can mean many things: researching how to keep discus, changing water regularly, cleaning substrate regularly, cleaning filters, wiping down glass, etc.

Well, the reason for the sticky (started in another thread, see post #2) started because MANY people time and time again come back and say how much they regret starting with a planted tank. It seemed like a good idea b/c rather than having 1-3 new posts a week asking about planted tanks, it provided an easy place for people to read the experiences of people who tried before. I don't think it was to exclude 'success stories' but it was meant to prevent endless arguments of people talking in circles which were happening regularly (i.e. the philosophical disagreement occurring right now as we speak - which occurs in all the new threads that pop up).

With that said.. I think in my initial story I stated it wasn't due to lack of effort. I don't know if you have seen my other posts, but I'm confident no one would ever accuse me of lack of research.

I changed water twice a day, I cleaned substrate during EVERY WC, etc. I cleaned out my HOB filter daily with a rinse in used tank water and cleaned out the canister weekly to bi-weekly.

My discus still died. HOWEVER, if you're saying it's still possible to grow out nice Discus and have a high survival rate from juvies IF a person does MORE work, then I still think that gets the point across...

That if you think you have a lot of experience, that you think you understand the aquarium hobby very well, you've researched what it takes to keep a tank clean, you do TWICE daily WC of at least 33-50%, rinse your filter media daily, gravel vac twice a day during WC, and feed high quality foods 5x a day to your Discus --- AND ---- THAT IS STILL NOT ENOUGH. and you NEED TO DO MORE then I would say yes, you're right.

Again, it's not to say that it's IMPOSSIBLE.

While I never said my Discus were show quality in my BB Tank (in fact, I explicitly stated in the original post that they were not), I am still happy with them and willing to show them. I don't think I've found anyone that has shown their growouts from a planted tank yet.

If you have, please post them and give us a good formula. Again, this isn't a challenge, but many people aren't going to believe it until they see it and if you can give a good detailed 'formula' for success, there are a LOT of people who are willing to do the work to make it happen.

Either way, even if it is possible, I think we all agree it's not cost-effective or worthwhile to try. That it makes more sense to growout the fish then put it in a planted tank (or start out with adults in the first place). What we don't want people to think after reading this thread is that it's only 2x harder or 3x harder instead of an order of magnitude harder. What we don't want people to get the impression of is that it's common practice.

In fact, implying that a 'newbie' isn't working hard enough or didn't learn enough is only going to discourage people from continuing the hobby. If it is possible, we want to impress upon the new hobbyist that there are many factors beyond our control that are very impractical to even the advanced aquarist.

[ExReefer]

"I changed water twice a day, I cleaned substrate during EVERY WC, etc. I cleaned out my HOB filter daily with a rinse in used tank water and cleaned out the canister weekly to bi-weekly."

If you truly stuck to this schedule, then you fish died for reasons outside of keeping a planted tank. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. What about keeping a planted tank could have caused your fish to die with the kind of care you just described?

We can agree that's it's not cost-effective or worthwhile to try a planted tank as a beginner. I agree because I think that despite the beginner that does his/her research, they still under-estimate the amount of work involved in caring for a planted discus tank. I would not recommend a planted discus tank to a beginner. I never have. Check my posts within the last 12 months if you wish.

I can't say I've grown out juvies in a planted tank, but I have and continue to grow out sub-adults in my lightly planted discus tank. Search for photos of my Piwowarski discus for reference. I've very pleased with their development. Under my care since August, they have added 1 to 1.5" of growth. All are over 6" now and I believe they are still growing and very young. Pairing activity has just recently become a priority for them.

If I decided to grow out juvies in my lightly planted tank, it would require more food and more cleanings.

[ericatdallas]

"I changed water twice a day, I cleaned substrate during EVERY WC, etc. I cleaned out my HOB filter daily with a rinse in used tank water and cleaned out the canister weekly to bi-weekly."

If you truly stuck to this schedule, then you fish died for reasons outside of keeping a planted tank. I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. What about keeping a planted tank could have caused your fish to die with the kind of care you just described?.

Okay, so you're calling me a liar?

As has been discussed in other threads, there might be other considerations such as DOCs that build up. Nitrogen is an indicator of poor water, not necessarily the only thing. Let me give you an example. People get scurvy. It's a vitamin C deficiency. Does that mean by giving this person Vitamin C, we have now solved their malnutrition? No, because while scurvy is a vitamin C deficiency, are we missing why this person is not getting enough vitamin C? Perhaps it's due to not being able to afford food. So while giving them a vitamin C tablet solves a symptom, it does not solve the root cause. Same aspirin. The person may have a tumor, did we solve the symptom or the problem? There's a difference.

Second, while I did maintained that routine, that doesn't necessarily mean it was enough. Which is basically what I said. That even keeping to that schedule, I was unable to keep it to a level where the organics didn't get trapped in the sediment. No matter how diligent I was. Arguably, I didn't do it well enough, fine, that's your opinion.

Here's the dilemma I have. You're questioning my integrity and my motives. I would end the discussion b/c you implied what I said was untruthful. I can't disprove your statement so it's a waste of time. I do have a honest goal of educating and informing other people on keeping Discus. I think it helps everyone. Which is why I will choose to continue to discuss it rationally, but I would appreciate you not speculating on my work ethic or my honesty and I won't question yours.



I can't say I've grown out juvies in a planted tank, but I have and continue to grow out sub-adults in my lightly planted discus tank.

Let me get this straight. You not only doubt my integrity, but you do so without having the experience yourself? Nice...



If I decided to grow out juvies in my lightly planted tank, it would require more food and more cleanings.

Ok

[ExReefer]

Please, take it easy. I'm not calling you a liar or questioning your integrity. I said it must have been something else that killed your fish. I don't buy into your belief that despite superior care, the only thing that must have killed your fish was that they were in a planted tank. I'm sorry to upset you or cause confusion.

We can agree to disagree. Nothing wrong with that.

[gerrard00]

I think the sticky is a good idea to share experiences. However, I chose to believe the bad experiences occured from not putting in the proper amount of work. Work in this regard can mean many things: researching how to keep discus, changing water regularly, cleaning substrate regularly, cleaning filters, wiping down glass, etc. Success in this hobby requires a certain amount of work. For the beginner, there is more work as they have to spend time learning how to care for discus BEFORE actually starting a discus tank. I think the vast majority of failure in this hobby comes from people rushing into things and starting out with good intentions only to slowly cut back on their maintenance (i.e. work).

gerrardd00 - I don't know exactly why you failed as you did not share your personal experience. You mentioned keeping nitrates at less than 10ppm. That's important, but did you also clean your filters and substrate regularly? Did you overfeed your fish? Did you purchase high quality stock to begin with? Did you quarantine your stock first? Did you get them trained to eat high quality foods? All of those things require effort on your part and many of them have nothing do to with a planted tank. Placing healthy stock in a planted tank does not magically make them sick. Lack of work causes failure in this hobby.

I didn't say I failed. I'm actually very proud of what I accomplished keeping 4/6 fish alive and growing at least two of them to almost 7" TL. In fact, I did share my personal experiences in an earlier post, but I don't think you actually read it. I also have another thread detailing my experiences with photos and videos from my first year. Here's a quick snap of the fish I'm proudest of:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=72029&d=1327674631


Not show quality by any stretch, but I'm proud that I grew them out that well despite my mistake to grow them out in a planted tank. I never stopped doing daily waterchanges, plus extra turkey basting, plus gravel vacuuming before lights out until I felt like they had matured. I fed them multiple kinds of high protein and high quality foods like beefheart mix, Ocean Nutrition Prime Reef Flake, Colorbits, NLS Discus Formula and a once a week bloodworm or mysis shrimp treat. What I said was, despite all of my hard work doing daily changes, including wiping down the glass every time, including vacuuming the gravel every time, including turkey basting after every feeding, despite researching and experimenting with fertilizers and lights, despite feeding four or five different high quality feeds recommended on this site, I had less success than if I had grown out my fish in a BB. I really don't think you can just quantify my experiences as "just not enough work", when I was spending close to two hours a day working on my tank. Read the other posts in this thread, it doesn't seem like folks who were just lazy and didn't keep up their maintenance.

In another post you state that you had success with a planted tank when you started out with almost grown 4-5" inch fish. Well, that seems to jibe with my opinion that it's a mistake to grow out juvies in a planted tank. I would consider a 4-5" fish almost an adult. Many beginners think they'll save money by buying 2.5" fish and sticking them in a planted tank. I see posts like that in the beginner section all the time. That's what I did and I'm trying to suggest to those people that they shouldn't do it. If I had it to do over again, I would grow those 2.5" fish in a smaller BB tank until they hit a year and then, I would start thinking about a display tank. More mature discus have better eating habits and a better immune system. This isn't stuff that the people on this thread made up, it's common knowledge in the hobby.

Barring that, I would just buy older fish at 4-5" like you've done. If I'm reading your posts correctly, you've never done a growout of 2.5" fish in a planted tank, right? So what motivates you to come into this thread to tell the people who have had these experiences that we just haven't worked hard enough, case closed, thread over, the end? This is a discussion forum. We're hear to discuss our experiences and possibly help others, not to have someone come along and disparage us and suggest that we were all just not working hard enough and we have no points to share. Especially someone who has never even done a growout in a planted tank!

I have two new discus to replace the ones that died. I bought them at 4.5"and they are currently in a BB QT tank for their 7th week. I can feed enough that both fish get full and then turkey baste the leftovers right out. Waterchanges are so easy it feels slightly naughty. I will never again do a juvie growout in a planted tank!

[gerrard00]

Second, while I did maintained that routine, that doesn't necessarily mean it was enough. Which is basically what I said. That even keeping to that schedule, I was unable to keep it to a level where the organics didn't get trapped in the sediment. No matter how diligent I was. Arguably, I didn't do it well enough, fine, that's your opinion.


Before I got involved with discus keeping, I figured two or three 33% changes a week would be fine. Actually, I thought that was probably overkill. I quickly upped that to 50% changes 7 days a week and that wasn't really enough. Just what I could live with. On a few occasions I went nuts and did two 50% changes in a day. My fish were even happier. I'm sure they would have been totally delighted with multiple 90% changes a day. In the end, I don't think you can spend enough time or water cleaning up a tank with juvies and substrate. I don't trust anyone's opinion on this subject until they've actually done a growout themselves and posted pictures of healthy, round, well colored fish.

[ExReefer]

gerrard00 - read post 20, first paragraph where I dicuss my first failure with planted tank. I did not specfify they were juvies, but they were. I failed due to lack of knowledge and laziness.

Despite all the back and forth between us, I believe that we are doing some educating along the way. I just wish things were not taken so personally sometimes.

Gerrard - this is what lead me to believe you failed at a planted tank. Here are some of your sentences: "At any rate, I would wager that there are more people out there at my skill level who are going to have bigger problems than "just more work". Problems like sick fish, fish that are dark, fish that don't grow, plants that don't grow, etc."

"Posts that suggested that it's only a matter of more work are what lead me to believe that I should grow my juvies out in a planted tank. I figured it was just a little more work dealing with a planted tank and the naysayers just didn't want to bother dealing with fertilizers and lights and things of that nature. I figured, "how hard could it be?". As long as I kept my nitrates below 10, I figured I'd be golden. I ignored the posts that stressed that growing out in a planted tank was going to be a huge challenge. I focused on the ones, like yours, that said it was just "more work", because that's what I wanted to believe. In all honesty, I believed people on other forums who said that SD members were maintenance obsessed and doing unnecessary changes. I wish I hadn't."

Those don't sound like success stories so I assumed you were trying to imply you failed at a juvie planted tank.

[AngryBird]

Great post.

[Sean Buehrle]

Sometimes I think that people who try and keep a planted tank with adult or juvenile discus do a lot of things wrong, and it stacks the deck against them.

Don't get me wrong with what I'm about to say, I'm not putting anyone down or pointing any fingers, it's just what I have observed, and I have made the same mistakes myself.

What I always see is a person breaking all the rules or trying to make a sort of community tank of sorts.

Keeping discus with other fish, it's not really a rule but in my experience and from what I've noticed is that a lot of people in the disease and meds section are listing tank mates.

Mixing fish from different sources or buying fish from the pet store.

Adding fish later or one at a time.

Always wanting to tweak their water parameters, it's like they are never satisfied with it.

Sometimes I think people are just too stubborn to accept simple rules and admit they were wrong and quit making the same mistakes over and over.

Do you guys know how many times I've seen people make the promise to never try and raise Juvies in a planted tank only to take new fish and plop them in a bb tank with some store bought Pleco?

It drives me crazy and sometimes I want to just tell them to give up discus because they will always have the same old problems.

I believe that under the right circumstances a person could raise some decent Juvies in a planted tank but they just make too many bad decisions along the way, once you get em sick it's pretty much over and done with.

[ericatdallas]

I can't remember if I stated it in the original post or not, but I don't think it was strictly cleanliness that ended some of my Discus.

Some of it I attribute to the stress they got from the high light which was required for the plants. I don't know this for certain, but I do notice that my Discus in different tanks are happier based on the lighting. I've sinced switched all my lights in my fish room to LEDs (this was more b/c I leave lights on and saved money but also because they were dimmer and I could position them like a spotlight where I needed them most - not at my fish).

My fish room is also my laundry room and storage room (in basement). The Discus nearest to the bright light that my wife insists for her to do laundry are easily started and skittish. The Discus on the far side where the light is dimmer approaches me. Again, hard to say if this is it... the fish near the bright lights are also newer, are closer to the lound washer/dryer, have more foot traffic, and probably other factors. While the other fish are the ones I've had (raised from juvies), so they might be used to everything.

Also, another factor, and I've read this from other previous posts is that discus like to hide when they have the opportunity. Which I know I did mention. The more aggressive and bigger Discus went out and ate while the smaller Discus hid. They missed a lot of opportunities to eat. They grew weak.

Finally, another reason why one discus died was it got crushed in the decorations by swimming into a rock cave and getting stuck. I didn't know it was there until the next morning and it probably thrashed around and couldn't figure out how to get out <shrug>.

So I never said it was purely from cleanliness although that's one factor that makes the BB very strong. So I agree with Sean, usually there are mistakes to be made that compound on each other but they are more likely to happen with planted tanks and newbies.

I've said this before, I think there has to be a way for it to work. One of the things for sure is to limit tight spaces for Discus to get trapped in and another is to figure out a way to keep junk from getting trapped in the roots.

[TNT77]

If you really want to try it...thin layer of sand 1/4-1/2" thick, secure plants to easily movable objects like wood or large rocks, and do not over decorate..keep it simple. Not sure its something I want to try and raise juvies in but for someone who hates the sterile look these are the easiest ways I have found to keep the bottom debris free and still have stuff in the tank.

[mirador]

HI Recently I posted a thread in the "planted tank " section entitled "220 planted tank." I had a lot of "hits " but everyone wanted to see 220 planted tank. However what the post was was a guy ( me) saying that he had the tank set up ( for a year or so),he had the discus that were still young and in growout tanks, and he now suspected that the whole idea was nearly impossible. It's interesting to now read these previous posts. There are two things of note that might help in getting these big discus planted tanks to work:.
1. I saw in a Jack Wattley book ,a picture of a Bernd Degen planted tank. The front was bare bottom,then there was a wall , then the rest of the bottom was a real planted tank.That seems like a good ideai

2. We need someone to devise and post a "constant water change device". That would be great. It nmust already exist so we wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel. People,for example, post whole sections about lighting in a planted tank..like it matters.they don't like light and just about anything work OK as long as light levels aren't too high or there is shade.

Thanks

[TURQ64]

It already exsists, and was most likely the beginning of the hobby..It's a called drip system, used by many, many large distributors. Water drips in, tanks are bottom drilled to drip out without costly devices.......

[cjr8420]

the funny thing with new discus keepers is they have no clue how hard a BB discus tank is to keep up with and grow juvies to adult.


It already exsists, and was most likely the beginning of the hobby..It's a called drip system, used by many, many large distributors. Water drips in, tanks are bottom drilled to drip out without costly devices.......
the filter guys recently came out with a chlorine/chloramine filter yes this is old but they attached a 50,60,90 gal a day regulator for a constant drip system for a 100 bucks.set up an overflow to a drain and ur good.

[gerrard00]

gerrard00 - read post 20, first paragraph where I dicuss my first failure with planted tank. I did not specfify they were juvies, but they were. I failed due to lack of knowledge and laziness.

I apologize for missing that. My mistake. To be honest, I was really taken aback by your whole "/end of story" attitude and perhaps didn't read your posts closely enough in my haste to respond.




Despite all the back and forth between us, I believe that we are doing some educating along the way. I just wish things were not taken so personally sometimes.


I wager that if you go to any forum in the world and post "you're all wrong and just didn't do enough work, the end", people are going to take it personally.




Gerrard - this is what lead me to believe you failed at a planted tank. Here are some of your sentences: "At any rate, I would wager that there are more people out there at my skill level who are going to have bigger problems than "just more work". Problems like sick fish, fish that are dark, fish that don't grow, plants that don't grow, etc."

"Posts that suggested that it's only a matter of more work are what lead me to believe that I should grow my juvies out in a planted tank. I figured it was just a little more work dealing with a planted tank and the naysayers just didn't want to bother dealing with fertilizers and lights and things of that nature. I figured, "how hard could it be?". As long as I kept my nitrates below 10, I figured I'd be golden. I ignored the posts that stressed that growing out in a planted tank was going to be a huge challenge. I focused on the ones, like yours, that said it was just "more work", because that's what I wanted to believe. In all honesty, I believed people on other forums who said that SD members were maintenance obsessed and doing unnecessary changes. I wish I hadn't."

Those don't sound like success stories so I assumed you were trying to imply you failed at a juvie planted tank.

Those quotes sound to me like someone who has had some success, but who would have had much more success if he just followed the generally accepted idea of not doing growouts in a planted tank. I did have issues with my fish getting dark and not eating aggressively. If I finish a marathon in high heels, I can consider it a success. Heck, I can be proud that I was crazy enough to dedicate myself to finishing the race despite the handicaps I chose to place on myself. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't immediately think, "wow, I made that way harder on myself than it had to be. I wish I hadn't done that." That was my goal in making my original post, before this sticky was even made. To tell people that "hey, you can run the race in high heels, but it's not going to be just more work than running in sneakers."

[gerrard00]

If you really want to try it...thin layer of sand 1/4-1/2" thick, secure plants to easily movable objects like wood or large rocks, and do not over decorate..keep it simple. Not sure its something I want to try and raise juvies in but for someone who hates the sterile look these are the easiest ways I have found to keep the bottom debris free and still have stuff in the tank.

I think there have been a lot of great posts about potted plants in the display tank section. I think that's another good option for someone who just has to have their juvies in a decorated tank.

[gerrard00]

Always wanting to tweak their water parameters, it's like they are never satisfied with it.


This is one that I am also guilty of, but it was for the plants. My plants didn't like the high number of water changes, but I didn't realize that that was the only problem. I experimented with and continue to add Reef Builder (KH), GH Booster, Iron root tabs and other things. I only wish I knew that the plants would all start growing once I wasn't doing as many wcs. Eventually, I'd like to remove as many of the additives as possible from my regimen, but I'm nervous about tweaking my finally stable system.

I actually added Reef Builder to my BB QT tank on a whim a few weeks ago. I was hoping to minimize pH swings. Big mistake! I didn't realize how much of an impact even a small amount of the stuff would have. My fish were sick for two days and I didn't realize what was the culprit until Hans stressed to me to K.I.S.S. Luckily, they are happy and hungry again, but it was another lesson for me to learn.

At any rate, doing a growout in a planted tank isn't the only mistake I've made on this journey. Not by a longshot!

[rocklobster]

Hope I'm not invading, but I personally have never raised a Discus before, but I have successfully raised Piranhas in a hi-tech planted tank.

My question is, why is it so hard to grow out discus in a planted tank. Is it because they're prone to parameters, or something else? I've grown my piranhas from juvies until adults in my planted tank, but I have no experience with Discus, so I can't really compare.

[lipadj46]

Piranhas to discus is like apples to oranges

sent from my ti-85 during chemistry class

[rocklobster]

Piranhas to discus is like apples to oranges

sent from my ti-85 during chemistry class

Thanks for that.

I may not know about Discus, but it doesn't mean that I haven't raised fish before :]

[PaytonGrant]

I wonder if anyone has tried mongrove trees they bring down nitrated a lot

[gerrard00]

Hope I'm not invading, but I personally have never raised a Discus before, but I have successfully raised Piranhas in a hi-tech planted tank.

My question is, why is it so hard to grow out discus in a planted tank. Is it because they're prone to parameters, or something else? I've grown my piranhas from juvies until adults in my planted tank, but I have no experience with Discus, so I can't really compare.

Have you read through the posts in this thread? Here's a quote from my original post:

After a month or so, I decided to do some daily water changes due to some illness and the behavior of the fish changed dramatically. Their appetites went up and they became way more active. In the end, I spent a year plus constantly trying to keep the tank clean and food bits out of the plants and substrate. Sometimes it almost seemed like the fish were purposefully spitting little bits of food into the plants! The discus were OK as I was constantly changing water, but the plants hated it and never really grew. My nitrates never got above 10ppm, but there was a ton of organic material floating in the tank and my guys were less active and less aggressive eaters if I ever skipped one day's water change. That's the thing, I went into the whole planted tank thing thinking it would lead to "almost no work", but it wound up being a lot more work than if I had gone BB.

My opinions, based on first hand observation:

1. Juvenile discus are extremely sensitive to water conditions and pathogens as their immune system isn't fully developed.
2. Good water conditions doesn't just mean low nitrates; water changes are still needed to keep the fish growing, healthy and eating well.
3. Discus are incredibly messy eaters that grind their food into powder.
4. No amount of substrate cleaning is going to keep a tank totally clean.
5. Groups of juvenile discus need to be fed often and in large amounts to make sure all members of the group get fed.

Before I got involved with Discus, my only experience as a fish keeper was with goldfish. I changed water once a month, if I remembered to do it. I never even bought a test kit. I threw in a pinch of flakes whenever I thought about it. I used pebbles as a substrate. My goldfish were generally happy and healthy. If they ever died I just bought new ones. The thing is, discus are not goldfish! I had to learn that by reading through the archives of this forum.

[williemcd]

:DWell.. I guess it's time for the alternate view hey?...I'm currently raising 7 discus in a 155 G with 6 GB rams.. a dozen or so tetras, a dozen pygmy cory's. AND more plants that ya can shake a stick at!... I'm a great proponent of the Walstad method of tank maintenance perhaps cuz I'm lazy or maybe because I do believe you can achieve a nice balance in the environment. I do NO WATER CHANGES other than a periodic (bi-weekly) vacuum of the substrate and evaporation replenishment. Probably 10% per week total water exchange. I bought my brood at the age of 2 months so they have now just turned one year and 2 weeks old.. Spawn occurred 2/11/11. One is now approaching 5 inches SL.. there are a few that aren't quite as large and a few runts but that's to be expected I think. Now here is where I get on my soap box.
As fish keepers we are taking these fish out of an environment where they are free to roam without constraint.. We now house them in a glass enclosure. Don't ya think we should do all that is humanly possible (other than taking them back to the wild) to ensure their time in captivity is as natural to it's native state?... Some folks ask me about the density of my plantings.. Vals and Amz swords.. some crypts.. etc... I ask them why they think the Discus evolved to the physical shape they display?.. They are used to swimming thru thick vegetation hence their slim/narrow profile.
All my fish see "pop" approaching the tank with food container in hand and EQUALLY await feeding time.. 5-6 times a day!.. The smallest of the group has no hesitation challenging the Big Boy for that morsel floating down between them. I feel that providing them with as natural a habitat as I can, I'm excluded myself from the dynamics of the group and they've formed their natural chain of command.
I considered submitting my fish to a "critique" site (which I'm sure your well aware of).. but after reading a number of elitist comment on the quality of the PHOTO"s.. I sat back and said to myself.. I think my fish are perfect... They like me. The world is good....<Grin> I don't need any validation from ANYONE else about my fish..

Now since they've reached a year of age, they are starting to show some dom/sub behavior.. I think that's to be expected as they approach sexual maturity. This behavior ONLY happens when they're not feeding!.. At chow time, they're all in it together.

So there is a planted tank/discus keeper's perspective. Bill in Va.

[TNT77]

:DWell.. I guess it's time for the alternate view hey?...I'm currently raising 7 discus in a 155 G with 6 GB rams.. a dozen or so tetras, a dozen pygmy cory's. AND more plants that ya can shake a stick at!... I'm a great proponent of the Walstad method of tank maintenance perhaps cuz I'm lazy or maybe because I do believe you can achieve a nice balance in the environment. I do NO WATER CHANGES other than a periodic (bi-weekly) vacuum of the substrate and evaporation replenishment. Probably 10% per week total water exchange. I bought my brood at the age of 2 months so they have now just turned one year and 2 weeks old.. Spawn occurred 2/11/11. One is now approaching 5 inches SL.. there are a few that aren't quite as large and a few runts but that's to be expected I think. Now here is where I get on my soap box.
As fish keepers we are taking these fish out of an environment where they are free to roam without constraint.. We now house them in a glass enclosure. Don't ya think we should do all that is humanly possible (other than taking them back to the wild) to ensure their time in captivity is as natural to it's native state?... Some folks ask me about the density of my plantings.. Vals and Amz swords.. some crypts.. etc... I ask them why they think the Discus evolved to the physical shape they display?.. They are used to swimming thru thick vegetation hence their slim/narrow profile.
All my fish see "pop" approaching the tank with food container in hand and EQUALLY await feeding time.. 5-6 times a day!.. The smallest of the group has no hesitation challenging the Big Boy for that morsel floating down between them. I feel that providing them with as natural a habitat as I can, I'm excluded myself from the dynamics of the group and they've formed their natural chain of command.
I considered submitting my fish to a "critique" site (which I'm sure your well aware of).. but after reading a number of elitist comment on the quality of the PHOTO"s.. I sat back and said to myself.. I think my fish are perfect... They like me. The world is good....<Grin> I don't need any validation from ANYONE else about my fish..

Now since they've reached a year of age, they are starting to show some dom/sub behavior.. I think that's to be expected as they approach sexual maturity. This behavior ONLY happens when they're not feeding!.. At chow time, they're all in it together.

So there is a planted tank/discus keeper's perspective. Bill in Va.
Discus DO NOT come from lush green environments. Just because they look good swimming around in a planted tank does not mean that is where they came from. They come from murky looking water with tons and tons of roots and braches with random plants here and there.
And the reason we discus people preach about raising them as we do so you do not get the stunted fish. We preach to raise healthy fish. A fish that does not grow well is not a completely healthy individual. Yes it may live a year or two but how long do you think an underdeveloped body will continue to run.

[typicalalex1]

My story is very similar to yours.
I kept South American cichlids before discus, Oscars, JD's etc and it got to the point where i was fed up of the fish always fighting. I knew i needed a change and i knew exactly what i wanted to change to.

I made sure that i read up as much detail on discus as possible.
I knew how many discus i could put in my tank, i knew what tank mates i would have i had even chosen what plants i wanted in the tank.

I set up my tank and bought the plants and then bought the discus's tank mates.
Everything seemed to be going well up to this point.
My first mistake was buying Young discus. Somehow, i missed 1 very important point which was keeping young discus in planted tanks is near impossible for a beginner.

1 of my original discus died and i sold the rest.

I then went out and bought 3 adult discus.
1 of those died a couple of months later for no apparent reason, water was fine and he looked in good health.

I then bought 5 more adults, 2 of them were peppered but peppering doesnt bother me at all, i actually think 1 of the fish looks better with peppering than without.

But i had the same Tunnel Vision as you did.
I thought it would be different for me than it would be for anyone else, i thought the same when i kept my SA cichlids as well. But since i lost my first adult discus, i am a completly changed fishkeeper!

Water changes of 25% once or twice a week was the norm for me but now its 50%-80% every other day.
I de worm my fish every couple of months like i should be, i have reduced how much i feed my fish at once and instead feed less amounts but more often.


To anyone that it thinking about starting a planted discus tank, or any discus tank for that matter, make sure you spend time reading through this forum.
Some of the problems you find on this site will happen to you at some point and the best way to combat them are to be prepared!
I wish i had been before i started.

[scottthomas]

I agree with the main premise of this post. It is nearly impossible to raise high quality juvie discus in a heavily planted tank imo. They simply just dont grow correctly unless they have near perfect water conditions and lots of food. (two things that dont work together)

However, while discus may not come from such planted enviromnments- imo a planted tank is the most pleasing to the eye. Discus dont naturally live in a glass cube either. I can understand why so many people give it a try despite the well intentioned advice of countless others who have experienced the obstacles of growing discus in a planted tank.


My advice (certainly not original)- grow out some discus in a bare bottem tank or aquire adult discus for your planted aquarium.


If you really want to try it...thin layer of sand 1/4-1/2" thick, secure plants to easily movable objects like wood or large rocks, and do not over decorate..keep it simple. Not sure its something I want to try and raise juvies in but for someone who hates the sterile look these are the easiest ways I have found to keep the bottom debris free and still have stuff in the tank.

I have a similar tank-100 gallons. Thin layer of white sand. A center pile of driftwood covered in Anubius. 8 discus, 6 cories and 20 tetras. I think it looks great and my adult disus look good and healthy. I change 75% water 2/week. Low lighting, no ferts. Been running for 3 years. Easy as pie!

[Robert Paul Hudson]

Let me give you all a different perspective. I am not an expert on Discus, but I am somewhat of an expert on plants. I have written extensively about them for TFH magazine, and a had a column in FAMA for three years. There are hundreds of plant species, and I know two thirds of them.

In the world of Discus and Plants, there certainly is two opposing schools of thought. Many successful and knowedgable plant people keep Discus in planted aquariums and swear by it. You see photos of Discus and plants in magazines and books, and some people such as the plant God Amano have made a career out of combining Discus and plants. It is being done quite successfully.


"planted grow out tank" is just asking for headaches and usually just wont work.

The question is why. It is certainly not the plants themselves that would cause any problems. Plants FEED on organic waste, leaf litter, fish food, Ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate. A healthy plant tank should have no measurable ammonia or nitrate. Plants do not produce any waste, other than decaying leaves. They do not make it, they eliminate it. So the problem you are describing must be the substrate and the waste it is collecting from fish waste and uneaten food. Organic waste takes TIME to settle into the substrate. It does not happen in just a matter of days or even weeks, so it should be fairly easy to surface vacuum waste out before it settles deep into the substrate. Noxious gases from decaying organic material in the substrate also takes time to develop and anyone should be able to at the very least minimize it by diligent maintenance and water changes. If you minimize the amount of organic waste in the first place you are much less likely to have substrate problems.

The key is also not to disturb the substrate. Unless you are uprooting a plant or or re arranging the substrate, you should not have any reason for disturbing it, and the plants should feed on whatever is there. The key to the Discus planted tank like anything else in the aquarium hobby is stability. If you want to give plants a try, here are a few things I would suggest:

1. Set up the planted tank FIRST and have it running for 3 or 4 months before adding any Discus or other sensitive fish. Cycle the tank with the plants in the tank, get them actively growing with well developed root systems IN the substrate which will keep the substrate oxygenated and help prevent any accumulation of noxious waste.

2. Choose an inert clay gravel substrate that is more or less pH neutral. If you are concerned about noxious gas, don't add anything organic to the substrate like peat.

3. Choose the appropriate lighting that is strong enough to grow plants. I know some people believe strong light will cause discus to spend most of their time hiding or make them anxious. I have talked to plenty of people who have proven this a myth. For the people I know, once the fish become accustomed to it, it poses no problem.

4. Choose the right plants and decide what your definition of a planted tank is. A heavily planted tank with enough lighting for fast growth creates a very healthy environment, but it requires you to remove dead leaves and other material often if you want to prevent it from getting in the substrate, frequent pruning and so forth. Plants do not fluctuate pH. Yes, as part of photosynthesis plants do release C02, but the amount is barely measurable, at most 1 or 2 ppm. Stem plants require more light and feeding. Rosette, bulb, and rhizome plants require less light and less feeding because they grow much more slowly. Simply throwing plants in a tank is not a "plant tank".

5. If you do not want a heavily planted tank, stick with slow growing plants like swords, Cryps, ferns and the like. These plants will not keep the water as clean as fast growing plants, but once well rooted will help prevent the substrate from getting anaerobic. These plants also do not shed leaves as often as stem plants.

6. Again, let everything in your planted tank become VERY stable before attempting to add these fish. Be patient. Also read up as much as you can about plants and how to care for them There are way to make the plants happy without putting Discus at risk. Take the plants as serious as you do the fish. Knowledge is power, fear or paranoia is just the lack of knowledge. Check out my web site, aquabotanic.com for more info or some of the plant discussion forums.

[TNT77]

[QUOTE=Robert Paul Hudson;867864]Let me give you all a different perspective. I am not an expert on Discus, but I am somewhat of an expert on plants. I have written extensively about them for TFH magazine, and a had a column in FAMA for three years. There are hundreds of plant species, and I know two thirds of them.

In the world of Discus and Plants, there certainly is two opposing schools of thought. Many successful and knowedgable plant people keep Discus in planted aquariums and swear by it. You see photos of Discus and plants in magazines and books, and some people such as the plant God Amano have made a career out of combining Discus and plants. It is being done quite successfully.



The question is why. It is certainly not the plants themselves that would cause any problems. Plants FEED on organic waste, leaf litter, fish food, Ammonia, nitrate, and phosphate. A healthy plant tank should have no measurable ammonia or nitrate. Plants do not produce any waste, other than decaying leaves. They do not make it, they eliminate it. So the problem you are describing must be the substrate and the waste it is collecting from fish waste and uneaten food. Organic waste takes TIME to settle into the substrate. It does not happen in just a matter of days or even weeks, so it should be fairly easy to surface vacuum waste out before it settles deep into the substrate. Noxious gases from decaying organic material in the substrate also takes time to develop and anyone should be able to at the very least minimize it by diligent maintenance and water changes. If you minimize the amount of organic waste in the first place you are much less likely to have substrate problems.[QUOTE]

I do not think that we are arguing that adults cannot be kept in planted tanks. All these magazines and pictures you see are of adults. And as you said it takes time for organic waste to break down in a tank for plants to utilize them. When raising juvies the sheer amount of waste and wasted food that they cannot get to is what makes it so difficult. With juvies is about nigh impossible to minimize the amount of organic waste in a planted tank. Lol some would say its hard enough in a bb tank.

[Robert Paul Hudson]

No, I meant it takes time for organics to break down and become noxious, certainly time enough for for you to change the water or surface vacuum the gravel bed. If waste is at the stage it can be noxious, its also at the stage where plants can feed on it and eliminate it. The problem arises when there is too much waste for the plants to handle because either

A) you don't have enough plants to handle the load,

B) you are not providing enough light or other factors for the plants to grow and use the organic waste

C) you have too many fish for the system to handle

D) you over feed the fish

E) you fail to remove excess organics

Whatever the reason, its not the plants causing the problem. I have set up plants growing in sumps that actually filter the water in breeding tanks. Plant filters. Works great.

[TNT77]

No, I meant it takes time for organics to break down and become noxious, certainly time enough for for you to change the water or surface vacuum the gravel bed. If waste is at the stage it can be noxious, its also at the stage where plants can feed on it and eliminate it. The problem arises when there is too much waste for the plants to handle because either

A) you don't have enough plants to handle the load,

B) you are not providing enough light or other factors for the plants to grow and use the organic waste

C) you have too many fish for the system to handle

D) you over feed the fish

E) you fail to remove excess organics
:) Go get some juvies and feed them 6-7 times a day and you will see what we are talking about. It is all those excess organics that causes the issue. And with the amount of feeding it takes to raise a nice healthy discus it is almost impossible to remove ALL the waste from a planted tank. If I skip 1 water change on my juvies I can notice a difference in behavior and appetite. But according to you it shouldnt. But it does..we are not making this stuff up. It is what we have seen while raising these fish.

[lipadj46]

Even the biggest anti discus cult uber high tech planted tank aquarist will admit raising juvies in a planted will yield fish that in general will not reach their full (size) potential. I've even heard Tom Barr (probably the most vocal anti discus cult cult leader) admit this to some extent, lol!

[Robert Paul Hudson]

But you do not need to remove it all in a planted tank. Plants will suck it up faster than you can blink. That's the whole point. If you are changing water once or twice a day as some people here are saying, there is no reason on earth why that shouldn't be enough to take care of the problem in a GROWING plant tank, no matter how many times a day you are feeding them. What are we talking about specifically? Ammonium? Nitrate? What exactly? Someone mentioned he had "noxious gas" escape. True noxious gas in a substrate is actually an extremely rare occurrence in any aquarium. If its just Ammonia he actually let loose, thats pretty easy to prevent in a plant tank.

I have a weekly internet radio talk show, and March 17th Tom Barr is coming on. You should call into the show and ask him about this!

I don't think there is any plant anti discus cult out there, just a number of people who know enough about plants to know how to make it work. In other Discus forums even among discus people there is a pro plant following.

[TNT77]

But you do not need to remove it all in a planted tank. Plants will suck it up faster than you can blink. That's the whole point. If you are changing water once or twice a day as some people here are saying, there is no reason on earth why that shouldn't be enough to take care of the problem in a GROWING plant tank, no matter how many times a day you are feeding them. What are we talking about specifically? Ammonium? Nitrate? What exactly? Someone mentioned he had "noxious gas" escape. True noxious gas in a substrate is actually an extremely rare occurrence in any aquarium. If its just Ammonia he actually let loose, thats pretty easy to prevent in a plant tank.

I have a weekly internet radio talk show, and March 17th Tom Barr is coming on. You should call into the show and ask him about this!
As I said...try it. Feed them how they should be fed and show us the results.

[lipadj46]

I have a weekly internet radio talk show, and March 17th Tom Barr is coming on. You should call into the show and ask him about this!


He has his own forum and he is on the plantedtank.net so the topic of discus and planted tanks has come up quite a bit. He has setup and also owns some nice discus planted tanks.

[JenTN]

For me, it's hard not to overfeed with a group of juvies. It's a hard balance...it is as if I don't overfeed, those at the bottom of the pecking order just don't get fed. So when you overfeed 6-8 times to day, who in their right mind can surface vaccum around plants every time???? Not me lol, maybe others.

[TNT77]

For me, it's hard not to overfeed with a group of juvies. It's a hard balance...it is as if I don't overfeed, those at the bottom of the pecking order just don't get fed. So when you overfeed 6-8 times to day, who in their right mind can surface vaccum around plants every time???? Not me lol, maybe others.
+1

[gerrard00]

For me, it's hard not to overfeed with a group of juvies. It's a hard balance...it is as if I don't overfeed, those at the bottom of the pecking order just don't get fed. So when you overfeed 6-8 times to day, who in their right mind can surface vaccum around plants every time???? Not me lol, maybe others.

I think you have to overfeed if you want all of your juvies to eat and grow. I remember feeding goldfish. If I had six goldfish and I put six flakes in the tank, five or six goldfish would eat. If I have six discus and put six flakes in the tank, two discus will eat. That's an extreme example, but I think it makes my point.

I did vacuum after every feeding for the first year of my discus keeping (actually, I used a turkey baster) and that still wasn't enough. Even when my nitrates were low, my fish always were happier and hungry after water changes. I've observed that with my own eyes. So have many others. If you feed a discus, it grinds its food into powder that gets everywhere. I think anyone who has ever seen a discus eating a beefheart mix would understand that you're not going to be able to clean every leftover bit out of your tank with vacuuming.

I think my discus look pretty good for planted tank raised fish. I've seen a few other people post decent looking fish raised in planted tanks. However, the vast majority that I see posted (especially on planted tank forums) show beautifully aquascaped tanks with healthy and lush looking plants and discus that are stunted, poorly shaped, poorly colored, thin and dark fish that the owner doesn't even realize could have looked better. Then, ten other people chime in that their discus look wonderful!

I stick by my originally posted opinion. The safest way to get a planted tank full of healthy adult discus is to buy adult discus. The second safest way is to grow out juvies in a BB tank and then move them into a planted tank as adults. Do Amano and Tom Barr raise their discus from juveniles or do they buy already grown out adults?

[fobincorporated]

I've kept discus in both BB (5 years now?) and planted (2 years, and then 2 days this past week). The big thing that irks me is the behavior change my discus display in a planted tank. High light, low light, it didn't matter to them when they're in a planted tank. They come out to eat food, then immediately dart right back into hiding again. The extra work involved in having discus planted tank compared to normal planted tank with say cardinal tetras or angels (even some shrimp species) was also unsatisfying for me. In BB tank I can observe my fish conditions better and I don't have to deal with the mess of cleaning up gravel/sand/dirt based substrate, not to mention I feel like my fish actually appreciate/like me instead of cowering behind some plant or driftwood. So all in all I'm just more pleased with the ease of maintaining BB as well as a more pleasing behavior from the fish (fish glued to the front glass whenever they catch a glimpse of me). I will say though in conclusion discus keeping is a hobby and finding enjoyment in a hobby lies in what makes YOU happy. I will NEVER keep my discus in a planted tank again just because I get minimal satisfaction and happiness from my discus when they're in planted tank instead of BB, but you may not feel the same way. My 2 cents here =)

[brianyu]

But you do not need to remove it all in a planted tank. Plants will suck it up faster than you can blink. That's the whole point. If you are changing water once or twice a day as some people here are saying, there is no reason on earth why that shouldn't be enough to take care of the problem in a GROWING plant tank, no matter how many times a day you are feeding them. What are we talking about specifically? Ammonium? Nitrate? What exactly? Someone mentioned he had "noxious gas" escape. True noxious gas in a substrate is actually an extremely rare occurrence in any aquarium. If its just Ammonia he actually let loose, thats pretty easy to prevent in a plant tank.

I have a weekly internet radio talk show, and March 17th Tom Barr is coming on. You should call into the show and ask him about this!

I don't think there is any plant anti discus cult out there, just a number of people who know enough about plants to know how to make it work. In other Discus forums even among discus people there is a pro plant following.

people here is anti planted tanks lol ...

[TNT77]

people here is anti planted tanks lol ...
No people here are anti stunted football sickly looking discus..we are not arguing about keeping ADULTS in planted tanks just raising juvies in them. But if you enjoy the thin sickly football shaped discus go for it. But don't expect us to go wow what a pretty fish when you post pics.

[Elliots]

I will soon be starting a planted Discus tank. I have read a lot on this site. I will not try to raise juvies in a planted tank. now this is my question, juvies, sub adults and adults are relative terms. In inches, head to end of tail, what is the smallest size I should buy? Is 3" too small or should I start at 4" or 5". I will probably buy from Discus Hans because he is a few hours drive from my NYC home and by the photos I've seen of his fish he has the types I like. I am not going to buy Discus right away as I think it will be better for the tank and plants to mature for at least 3 months and maybe as much as a year.

[Elliots]

I forgot to ask are all the color types equally difficult to raise? I remember from 20-30 years ago when there were none or very few "Designer Discus" strains, only browns and blues it was said that Heckels were more difficult. What is the story today? I had Discus 25 years ago and of course i had bad results then as I only checked pH and temperature. I did water changes probably less than weekly.

[Poco]

Thanks for the info

[judy]

If possible, start with five inch fish.

[hawaiidiscus]

interesting discussion but really doesn't seem beyond a basic understanding of the dynamics that rule a closed system. With the large food inputs and low efficiency for feeding juveniles it would take a LOT of plant in a planted tank to suck all the nutrients out. But the idea that it can't be done in a reasonably closed system (i.e., limited water changes and not trying to suck out all the crap every day as we do with a BB tank) I don't believe is correct. Just would take a lot of plant and a lot of tank.

For adults, less feeding and higher efficiency means less plant filtration needed. One issue though would be adding discus to an established tank you would need to allow some time for the biological filtration capacity to ramp up.

Really, this discussion is not dissimilar from the change in reef methodology to natural systems 40 years ago...

BTW, the vitamin C/scurvy analogy a few pages back is incorrect. Vitamin C cures scurvy, not alleviate its "symptoms". Nitrate in itself is not the only nutrient that matters, but frankly we can measure most of the others as well. Not really much mystery there.

[parrottbay]

I have 4 5-6 inch discus in a semi planted 72 gal tank... for a few months now without water changes for a couple weeks now at least and they seem fine... is there something I am missing... they get one cube of food a day also, and maybe some flake here and there....

[TNT77]

I have 4 5-6 inch discus in a semi planted 72 gal tank... for a few months now without water changes for a couple weeks now at least and they seem fine... is there something I am missing... they get one cube of food a day also, and maybe some flake here and there....
You have adults the thread is about raising juvies in a planted tank.

[parrottbay]

You have adults the thread is about raising juvies in a planted tank. yes I saw that but I wanted to make sure they would be okay. I am assuming they will be and what exactly makes it where you can not have juviniles in a planted tank... esp since I was about to try it? thanks for the help! I mean if I have an established planted tank instead of trying to do it all at once... is it possible or is it just because how much food the juveniles need and waste put off?

[rocdoc1962]

This is my first post here but I've been read the forum many times over the last couple of years. I, too, had to have a planted tank for my discus. I believe I've made every newbie mistake out there. I just received 5 beautiful 3" babies from Hans and I really don't want to watch them suffer slowly and fade away as most of my others have. I have a 125g planted tank with one beautiful adult girl, the only one that has survived to adulthood. I have a 3" bd and his brother has never grown, still at 1". I've decided to finally heed all the advice and go bare bottom. I love the looks of your potted plants, Judy. Seems like you've found a wonderful way to have plants and healthy discus. I've finally crossed the line where the discus' health means more to me than my plants.

[parrottbay]

So they die because of the plants???

[strawberryblonde]

So they die because of the plants???

It's not a question of dying, though some do, it's a question of thriving. You want your juvies to grow out to the largest, healthiest size possible, right?

Juvies need massive amounts of food per day so a heavily planted tank then becomes a liability for them since the food floats into the plants where they can't eat it. That's the first problem.

The second problem is the juvies need a large, clear space on the floor of the tank where they can graze and pick at the food for those 6 feedings a day. Heavily planted tanks don't leave much space on the floor of the tank.

So what generally happens is that juvie discus owners who try to go with a planted tank end up with a lightly planted tank in order to provide the proper eating and swimming space for the discus. And with a lightly planted tank, the plants can't use up all the excess nutrients, so you have to do what bare bottom tank owners do - large water changes every single day in order to get the accumulated wastes out of the tank.

In order to remove the wastes properly, you have to aggressively siphon in and around the plants, which ends up beating them up.

I tried doing a lightly planted tank for 2 months with 4" discus. I managed it quite well. They grew nicely - but then again, they weren't juvies AND I was doing 2 water changes per day.

At the end of 2 months I wanted to move my discus to a larger tank and rescaped it at the same time. I only kept 2 plants and put them in pots. I was SHOCKED at how easy my water changes were without all the plants to get in my way!

I'd never go back to trying to grow out discus in a planted tank - you might be able to do it, but is it really worth it to have to struggle so hard? If you really hate a bare bottom tank, add some driftwood, paint the back a nice color and paint the bottom with a textured, sand colored paint.

They won't stay babies for long and before you know it they'll be large enough for you to put them in a planted tank.

[parrottbay]

Stawberry blonde,

Thanks for explaining that to me, I have been reading on here but everytime seems to be a battle of who is right some times. I will take your advice and see about getting another tank and it be bare bottom. It means ALOT that you explained it to me and my baby fry when I get them :)

James

[Dlprice45]

Hi, I am new to this forum. I wanted to share what I have done so far. I have had discus 10 yrs ago and after a couple yrs went away and had them again with my discus pairing off and having babies to raise and sell. At that time I had powder blue and snakeskin. It was incredible to see them raise there own. Anyways I just got a 90 gallon tank and thought I would try a planted Community Discus tank this yr. Of course I have realized I screwed up on the depth of my tank but miraculously it has been doing very well. I started it in January. I bought 10 different discus that were young but 2" from Yellow Tricolor to red and powder blue. I did have a yellow one die and one runt that I got for free from my provider. I did have another runt he gave me and seperated it into my 29 gallon tank and it actually is recovering nicely, which I did not think would happen. Anyways, I added 5 corys, 2 horsehead loaches, 2 chinese algae eaters and 3 of the small bristlenose plecos which I was reluctant since I was nervous they would hurt my discus, but so far they have not. I also have 9 neon tetras and 5 rams and they are all doing well in the tank, The have lots of plants, Amazon swords, Anubias and some other broad leaf plants int he tank and so far I have not had any problems. Maybe my fish were just big enough to adjust ok. I was wondering though, since I have to have the light on for the plants will my discus be more unlikely to pair off? My light was off in the past and they may have helped them to pair off. I have only eight in there and they all act very healthy following me everywhere wanting food all the time. I do 2 water 20 gallon water changes a week and they seem quite content so far. I have been reading all these horror stories of the plant tank, but so far I havent had that problem, although the yellow one I got early on and the runt may have not had the strength with the young tank. So should I be having the light on for only so long a day. I may have been leaving it on to long. Also my large 6inch snakeskin blue has some spots on his head, but noe one else has that, I dont think its ick or anything, but I cant figure out what it is and wonder would there be something in the plants that could cause this. All the other fish are acting very healthy. I could try to post a picture. He is an old one I got from the person I purchased the discus from.

[SylvesterGraham]

As my first post, let me say this thread is nuts.

It's always so hard to come to a consensus in forums about semi complex hobbies because it's always one subjective, self-reported experience against another. The proof is always "believe me, I watched X happen in front of my own eyes..." and then someone else says, "no, believe me, X happened in front of my eyes!"

Imagine if the pharmaceutical industry or something worked like this. "believe me, it cures cancer..."

In any case, even though BB tanks make me sick to my stomach, I'm going BB for grow out. And why? Because I can't find any posts claiming a BB was the deciding factor in the death of their fish, while I find several claiming a planted tank was.

[Eddie]

As my first post, let me say this thread is nuts.

It's always so hard to come to a consensus in forums about semi complex hobbies because it's always one subjective, self-reported experience against another. The proof is always "believe me, I watched X happen in front of my own eyes..." and then someone else says, "no, believe me, X happened in front of my eyes!"

Imagine if the pharmaceutical industry or something worked like this. "believe me, it cures cancer..."

In any case, even though BB tanks make me sick to my stomach, I'm going BB for grow out. And why? Because I can't find any posts claiming a BB was the deciding factor in the death of their fish, while I find several claiming a planted tank was.

LOL, great post....its true. Everyone is an expert but in expert in their own experiences. I will say this though, some things do make it easier to keep discus, simplicity is one. Smart choice on growing your fish out in a bare bottom tank, less variables. :)

[becna]

I have just started keeping discus fish, i havnt found them too hard so far ( ive had them for about 3 months) and have only lost 2 fish and that was because they got external parasites from a new batch of fish. Anywho i have them in a community tank with tetras and corys the tank has about half an inch of gravel in it, a bubble wall, and about 4 live plants i only clean the tank once a week about 25% water change and spend about 20 mins in total doing the tank, cleaning the gravel etc and everyone is healthy happy growing and eating well. Ive always thought bb tanks look ugly but i quite like the tank pic on here with the plants in pots!

[nabilbb]

Judy,

That is a nice looking tank, where do you get those potted plants? and do you use CO2?

[sonflowerjoela]

I really love your tank with plants in pots. Do you ever have to clean the pots?

[schoolaintsobad]

Could someone please answer the question that was asked earlier (pg 5, I think) about what size is considered adult and thus "safe" for a planted tank? Is a 3-4" fish, TL, considered big enough?

[Eddie]

Could someone please answer the question that was asked earlier (pg 5, I think) about what size is considered adult and thus "safe" for a planted tank? Is a 3-4" fish, TL, considered big enough?

4.5" or larger in my opinion.

[schoolaintsobad]

4.5" or larger in my opinion.

Thanks.

[Eward]

Does anyone have any suggestions for my tank set up? I know I should have started with a BB tank, but it's too late to change it now.. I have a 70 gal with some driftwood,plastic plants, and two live umbrella plants. I have about 50 lbs of natural gravel- it doesn't seem very deep in a 70 gal tank. I currently have a small school of neon tetras, gold tetras, and 4 Cory cats. The whole point of setting up the tank was to get Discus, but everything I read says go with the bb tank. My tank is cycled and ready for discus it doesn't seem like a good idea to upset the gravel bed now. What do you suggest?

[xKevinx]

Does anyone have any suggestions for my tank set up? I know I should have started with a BB tank, but it's too late to change it now.. I have a 70 gal with some driftwood,plastic plants, and two live umbrella plants. I have about 50 lbs of natural gravel- it doesn't seem very deep in a 70 gal tank. I currently have a small school of neon tetras, gold tetras, and 4 Cory cats. The whole point of setting up the tank was to get Discus, but everything I read says go with the bb tank. My tank is cycled and ready for discus it doesn't seem like a good idea to upset the gravel bed now. What do you suggest?

i would make sure the gravel isnt more than an inch deep. and if it is because you have plants then you will just have to vacumn the gravel more often and not feed to much so it doesnt decay in the gravel. add about 10-15 more cories.this will help with clean up. do you plan on changing water everyday? i would... i would also suggest getting discus 4.5 inches and up.

[pastry]

Geez... read this ENTIRE thread for the first time and it gets pretty ugly. Afraid to post here because it's like walking on a freak'n fire pit. The only thing I want to say here is thanks to those who have given me great advice in a TACTICAL manner whether I follow it or not. For those of you who get sick of seeing people post a "planted growout log" I understand but it's never going to end. I almost resent my log (it hasn't even proven any sort of success yet) but I don't have a choice and you won't deter me from having discus AND a planted tank yet my discus will eat, live long, and breed often in a community. I'll always agree with you bare-bottom thumpers that bare-bottom yields best results in growth & breeding. You win... I'll admit it. I don't believe though that discus can't start early in a planted tank and get to a decent size (subjective; my personal preference 5.5") and be happy. You're scaring away people (near-possible "you's") with this ENTIRE site that may not NOW believe what you believe now but eventually will. Those people will be the same that could buy 6 discus or 100 discus from our sponsors... depending upon your direct response to them. So the next time you answer them "frankly", think about the longevity of quality in our hobby.

You want to discern people from growing in a planted tank? SIMPLY DISCUS CONTEST 2013 where all the people who I (and many others) watch develop discus in BB's do an experimental tank in a planted/substrate tank with the same WC and feeding regime to see how big they get. Again, I agee BB gets better growth but how will they do with the experienced keepers here. If those discus end up doing horribly then there's one hell of a forum to point "newbies" towards from there on out. Thoughts? Or each of you with the same batch split them and do half in planted and half in BB with same WC & feeding routine?

[n8rdms]

Great info

[discusjoe27]

nothing wrong, planted tanks. what the problem is as said newies get babies/juvies and try to grow them out in planted tanks. - cleaning the gravel releasing gases and killing them, or in planted tanks people go with slow growing plants oh plants will suck up the nitrate etc throwing fish in there. plants need to be fast growing and when looking down from the top it needs to be 1/2 to 3/4 covered with fast growing plants.

if some one wants to have a planted tank my advice is a canister filter that is 6-10x turn over with a slow flow, and really mature with discus that are at smallest 5 inches. so semi adults to adults.

also people/ newbies forget that babies and juvies need to be feed a lot of food. 2-3 times a day some times 5-6 times a day.

[discusplantedtanklover]

Wow, learn alot in this thread. Thanks everyone.

[pastry]

discusjoe, if you were responding to my post then you missed my point. not talking about newbies with them. guess your back into discus. hope your second time around is better than your first, bud.

[I305I Knucklez]

great info! I had read before about this and a friend told me as well. I will definitely be doing my 72 BB even tho I don't like how it looks since I have 3 other high tech tanks (co2, fertz, etc...) and have been doing that for about a year now. once they are adults I will redo the tank with plants

[SMB2]

Have been through this thread at least three times. Lots of info so thank you all. None the less I have tried a planted tank, but with great caution! The 90 gal tank was set up over four months ago with wood and plants. After cycling, 10 Rummey Nose, 10 Corys and 2 Bristlenose were added. That was the tank until a week ago when I added 6 Red Turks. BUT, not juveniles, about 4-5 inches. Also I got to hand pick them with the help of Hans from his warehouse. All the fish were feeding well the next day and I now hand feed each one, greatly reducing wasted food, I think. At least the thread started me on a more favorable path, and Hans has been very helpful.
I have read a lot of posts and stickies from SD and I have had the good fortune to see Discus in the wild, both in Ox Bow lakes filled with water that looks like Starbucks coffee and mostly clear eddy pools with moving water and fairly bright light. But I have little to no practical knowledge about Discus in captivity (I have kept SW tanks for decades). From what I have read here it seems as if there are those who keep/breed Discus for the joy of the fish alone, striving for size, confirmation color etc. And, there are those who are striving to keep some semblance of a biotope. Hopefully all are trying to have healthy fish.
Personally I would have less joy with fish in a BB tank. I enjoy watching my Discus pick algae off the wood and nibble away at the plants. They have a hiding area that they cruise into and rarely dash about in the tank. The plants are growing, some better than others but I don't need the perfect "Dutch" tank. Plants can be replaced using species that have done well.
I know the thrust of this thread has been to discourage growing out Discus in a planted tank, and it seemed like good advice. Hopefully posters will continue to pass on knowledge on how to succeed with both planted and BB systems. I have lots more to learn (like clean the glass and don't feed before taking pictures). Thanks for your help.
77015

[pastry]

Right on, SMB2. Well said.

[Kirbs]

Great thread!

I have always had a 90 Gallon Planted Discus Community Tank. But I was never successful at growing my Discus to their full potential. It was always a lot of work and time consuming. During the Summer, demands on my time resulted in neglect............less time for water changes and pruning of plants. Since finding this forum, I have realized what I did wrong and am ready to approach it quite differently. I have 4 tanks to set up in my basement to use as quarantines and grow outs. My goal is to have my 90 set up with Manzanita Branches, Sand Substrate with sparse plantings and HEALTHY ADULT DISCUS!

I am taking my time and want to do it right this time. I have learned a lot through this forum and will continue reading and learning before jumping in again. Although it is hard restraining myself!

[barkmanusd]

Wow! I'm shocked by the lopsided response to planted discus tanks! I've had aquariums for over 20 years and exclusive discus tanks for approx. 18. All have been planted (I like the idea of replicating a natural environment although I know we can't truly do that).
I do understand many are trying to breed or maximize the size of the fish. I don't doubt that would work. i think that's absolutely fine. To me it's like the person who eats plain oatmeal, unseasoned chicken breasts and vegetables without salt or butter. ...do they look great? Probably but I'm not convinced there quality of life couldn't be improved. Seems there's lots of room for middle ground.
I've noticed a number of folks made tons of mistakes then somehow concluded the problem was the planted tank....? ***? If you add 22 fish at once - yes you may have a problem!! :o) If you don't check nitrates 'cause the water 'looks' clean..... If you feed tons of food hourly then try and compensate by multiple water changes a day > 80% you increase probability of a mistake somewhere (PH, temperature, general stress on the fish etc.).
Another problem some are having is with the idea that discus keeping is easy....?? It's not - at least in comparison to other standard tropical fish. No one buys a prize champion poodle and then whines about brushing him. Yes, you have to vacuum the gravel! ......it kinda goes with it.
I say enjoy your fish however you like them but i hate to see new hobbyist jaded by the old foggies (of which I'm one - but maybe a little more open minded). If you like a planted tank - take the time (lack of patience is the biggest killer of discus with the new hobbyist!) to learn what you are doing. Just as you will need to learn a set of different rules if you go BB. Good Luck! A pic of one of my tanks. 75 gallons Penang eruption, Rafflesia, Albino pidgeons etc. - plants are obscured but there'a hygro, anubia, swords & purple lilly pads. Substrate is eco-complete.77355

[Crab]

My experience so far-
I have been wanting to try Discus for years. I finally decided it was time. So,... I laid down my richest and best substrate recipe to date, added a few rocks, cycled the tank, added black Mollies and several plants. I let it run for a month or so, let the plants grow & added a pair of blue rams. They laid eggs instantly.
Everything was looking good, but I still wanted to do more research and get my ecosystem more developed before taking the Discus plunge.
Then we went to our favorite fish store for supplies yesterday and the owner offered us some beautiful 2" juveniles at a mere $15 a pop. We could not resist.
Today, I find this forum. This is the first thread I read. Have I made a terrible mistake? Probably. Am I going to pull everything out and go BB? What do you think. Um,...no.
I have been keeping fish since I was 4. That's nearly 4 decades in the hobby. (you kids would be horrified if you had to work with the equipment available to us in the 70s. lol) Add to that 13 years in landscape design, eventually specializing in ponds and water features.
So I am going to proceed as planned, growing out juvies in a planted tank, for 3 reasons:
1) I have developed a knack for creating well balanced low-maintenance ecosystems.
2) I have a hard time understanding the finer points of why it can't be done successfully, so I want to see for myself precisely what goes wrong and why.
3) I would like to help contribute to the forum by answering questions and offering what I learn.
I always have planted tanks. My last tanks were mostly angelfish. I cleaned the filters, gravel and did water changes about 3 times a year tops and never saw any health issues. I also never had algae.
I believe this is why- I use Kuhli Loaches to do much of the bottom cleaning. They stay low and hide a lot so they don't interrupt the breeding process of shy angels. (discus will appreciate that)
I also use Malaysian Trumpet snails. Did you really just gasp in horror? They are not pests. They do a lot of cleaning. They burrow all thru the substrate, keeping it healthy and preventing dangerous gas pockets. They devour decaying vegetable matter, should I miss removing any dead leaves. They're also mostly nocturnal so you won't usually see many during the day. And besides, what body of water doesn't have snails? It wouldn't be natural.
I always carpet the substrate with java moss. Mulm, excess food and debris land in it and wriggle down to the gravel where it is eaten by Loaches & snails or absorbed by the moss and other plants. I use mostly fast growing plants because they eat/ clean/ absorb such impurities at a faster rate.
Next are the floating plants. My favorites are Hornwort and Crystalwort. They grow lightning-fast, absorbing impurities like a Hoover, while providing overhead cover for fish like angels and discus who like it. It's also easy to control, unlike the invasive duckweed. Avoid. I'm also going to try Water Lettuce, Water Hyacinth, and Frogbit. Their hanging roots are very attractive and voracious cleaners.
I am going to bump up my water changes though. That was just laziness. lol I am goin to buy a pipe-tapping kit for fridges with ice makers, tap into the pipe in the bathroom across the hall, run the line under the floor to the tank with a little ball valve and set it to drip constantly. I will run an overflow line thru the floor into a drain. This should help compensate for my laziness.
But listen, everybody here is talking like young Discus eat some sort of surprising amount of food, followed naturally by the exceptional waste. Well I have a news flash for you. All infants do, from guppies to puppies to humans. Ever had a baby? Can we talk about night feedings and mountains of diapers? I am not daunted by the juvenile Discus' alleged legendary capacity to eat and poop. All baby fish are legendary in this capacity.
Speaking of babies, the Mollies are there to provide fry as live food for the Discus. Delicious, nutritious, and not very messy. The chase also keeps them happy, entertained, bold and colorful
So as you can see, virtually everything in my tank that isn't a Discus was chosen for it's ability to feed or clean up after them in some way, each one leaning on the other in symbiotic harmony.
My filter is a wet/dry rated for over 100G. I use a low micron filter sock to catch minuscule impurities. The tank is 50G with 5 discus.
I'm not saying this will work and all my juvies will grow up big and round and be the captain of the football team in a planted tank. I'm not as cocky as I am simply curious. I just want to put all my years of horticultural and aquaria skills together and try my best before giving up. (suggestions welcome)
I just abhor BB tanks. They look like fish penitentiaries. Makes me want to slip them a Hershey bar and a pack of Camels.
I have my doubts about all this working out just as much as you do, but admit it- You want to know if I can pull it off too, don't you. :)
I'll let you know how it went.

[1077]

Has been some time since I last frequented this Forum and plan's for Discus in planted tank brought me back.
Having raised a group of Discus on a couple occasion's since then, my path is clear.
I shall raise the juveniles in BB 55 gal, and then place the adult's in 2 year old,heavily planted 80 gal tank.
For me ,it is about ones expectation's ,and I have tried both way's on a couple of occasion's and took note of the growth that was achieved with both method's.
Have no doubt that the adult fish will fair well in my planted tank, but to achieve the growth,development I desire,,It will be easier to raise them in smaller BB where they don't have to compete, or forage for foods among the jungle of plant's in my low tech 80 gal.
My planted tank's run well with little intervention from me other than weekly or Bi-weekly water change.
Plant's have adapted to low CO2 level's via fish waste,fish food's, and any sudden change or fluctuatio'n in CO2 levels like those asscociated with numerous weekly water changes would
in all likelihood trigger algae bloom judging from past expieriences.
Nearly all juvenile fishes in my expierience (40yrs) will grow faster ,larger,with frequent small feeding's and subsequent frequent water changes to remove Organic's but to also provide mineral's for structural development assuming fishes are not genetically inferior from the outset. (cull's,stunted already).
I am some way's away from purchasing the fish, for I must find homes for the fishes currently occupying the 55 gal ,and round up a quality autofeeder(suggestion's welcome),and a couple new 300 watt heater's.
Already have the sponge filter's,canister,hose with pump to quickly drain water.storage tub for makeup water,and more variety of food's than i have for human's.
Will post more as I get closer to time to contact Kenny.
Regard's,Lee

[SMB2]

I agree with the improved aesthetics of a planted tank over a BB, but there are behavioral issues to consider as well. After 6 months, (2+ with discus) I have actually removed half of my plants, much to the delight of the discus. They seem to enjoy working the substrate to see what can be "blown" up to snack on. This is a natural behavior and with lots of plants they will not go to the bottom. While I think plants help stabilize the water I am leaning towards re-scaping my 90 gal with most of the plants attached to my wood stumps leaving the bottom for the fish.

[1077]

Is said that plant's are as much as ten times quicker at assimilating,or eliminating ammonia,nitrites,nitrates than biological media no matter how much media is available so there is more benefit in my view than pure aesthetic's.
Perhap's should also note that fast growing plant's and lot's of em,,would be of more benefit than a few slow growing plant's such as aunbia,javafern,sword's,crypt's.
Even in bare bottom tank's ,I should think fast growing floating plant's would only help with water quality while also providing the fish some comfort from the often mega watt's of light that some folk's choose to utilize over high energy planted tank's.
I have load's of watersprite,pennywort,floating in my planted tank's and shall try to employ them when I finally aquire the juvie's.
I can see no downside to this approach from water quality standpoint, to comfort for the fishes in what will be sparse,near sterile,enviornment otherwise.
Once the fish achieve the growth I desire,,I too shall prolly thin out some of the plant mass in display tank, for although the small tetra's currently residing there have no trouble navigating ,,I think I shall see more of the discus,with fewer plant's.

[Hargy]

Hi all,
I'm new to this forum and keeping discus and I absolutely love these fish!! I purchased 2 juvenile discus about 3 weeks ago (1 red turquoise and 1 red dragon). They both seem to be doing great so far they're swimming together in the open and always eat like pigs at feeding time. The only catch is they're in a planted tank with a couple of electric blue rams and a pair of angels. I'm aware that keeping and raising healthy juvies in a planted tank can be a daunting task as they require super clean water to thrive, I've been doing a 30% water change daily since having them which I hope is enough? Temp is 30 PH is 7.5 nitrates nitrites and ammonia are all 0 (I use the API freshwater master test kit to get these results) and I feed them frozen beefheart frozen bloodworms occasionally and have new era discus pellets but getting them to eat the pellets is proving difficult. The tank is 4ft and is filtered by an aqua pro 1800uv canister filter with pads ceramic rings and bio balls. I'm just hoping someone more experienced can read this and tell me whether I'm doing enough for these little guys to grow into nice healthy happy discus hope I've covered all the info needed and will attach a pic. Any replies would be greatly appreciated!!
Many thanks, Nathan.

[teamhuckem]

Hello All! I'm sitting here now looking at my 6 new juvenile discus in my planted 135. Now I am terrified that I've spend $250+ on the beautiful fish of my dreams was a terrible mistake. Im running an EcoSystems freshwater refugium for filtration. Also a Fluval 406 hooked up to my 36watt UV sterilizer that handles a minimal amount of mechanical filtration. The fish are only 4 days in the tank and are swimming comfortably (water remains 0 ammonia/0 nitrite and 0 nitrate).
They are currently sharing the tank with 9 glow light tetras, 2 GBRs, 2 apistos and an ornamental pleco.
I was sold on the EcoSystem refugium for filtration as it seems to strip all detrimental qualities out of the water. That being said I am changing 10-20% water a day and vacuuming 25% of the gravel bed per day.
Should I invest immediately in a 55 and transfer the Discus out? They are schooling, but still not comfortable enough to take food when I introduce it.
Any advice from the veterans here is very welcomed! I am a very experienced fish keeper, but this is my first foray into Discus.
Thank you!
Jim

[teamhuckem]

Updating my own post here. Transferred all discus into a cycled bare bottom 29 gallon to grow them. Doing %50-%80 WC daily and feeding 4-6 times a day. Vacuum left overs before bed. Hopefully growing a couple inches doesn't take too long! Thanks for a wonderfully informative forum!

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4 Beta

[disckaroo]

1) bare bottom tanks (easier to locate the waste)
2) no decorations in the tanks (easier to locate the waste)
3) avoiding hard to clean filters (easier to squeeze out a sponge filter than it is to open up a canister filter)
4) feeding “clean” foods (beefheart is messy, freeze dried black worms are not)
5) keeping smaller populations of discus per tank (more fish, more food, more waste, more frequent cleaning)

The end.

brilliant. short. sweet.

[disckaroo]

I just abhor BB tanks. They look like fish penitentiaries. Makes me want to slip them a Hershey bar and a pack of Camels.
I have my doubts about all this working out just as much as you do, but admit it- You want to know if I can pull it off too, don't you. :)
I'll let you know how it went.

lmao +1

[Jbarnes]

Thanks for info. My plan is to do Discus similar to the way I do saltwater. Nutrient export via fast growing plants with a clean up crew. Sounds like my clean up crews first members are the snails you mentioned. Jerry.

[teamhuckem]

Hi A couple of months have gone by now since I purchased my first group of discus from Discus Hans. I must say, I am glad I am now growing them out in a 55 gallon tank first. I now have 10 juvies ranging in size from 3-4.5 inches. They are healthy and happy and I am especially grateful to Hans for being so accessible over the phone.
Patience is a virtue I lack, but I've discovered some with these beautiful fish. As I wait for these fish to get a tad bigger, I am spending time dialing in the 150 gallon they will eventually call home.
This forum is the best source of information for discus I have found and am happy to benefit from the experiences of discus keepers who've done this all before.
Daily 100% water changes in the 55 has become effortless and is paying off HUGE in the growth department.
I'll keep you all posted as I go forward with my planted tank experience! :-)

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4

[Jbarnes]

I'm also setting up a planted tank. Its in my office and a BB is not really appealing in my eyes for a formal living area. After reading all these pages of information my conclusion is that a planted tank is fine for adults but don't by juv's and expect them to grow in a planted tank? Did I interrupt that correctly? Jerry.

[dkeef]

I'm also setting up a planted tank. Its in my office and a BB is not really appealing in my eyes for a formal living area. After reading all these pages of information my conclusion is that a planted tank is fine for adults but don't by juv's and expect them to grow in a planted tank? Did I interrupt that correctly? Jerry.

U r correct sir. Bb is best for healthy growing discus. But like u, i absolutley hate it.
Its like keeping 5 carat fine diamond in a trashcan.
Diamonds deserve a proper jewelry case.

[teamhuckem]

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/17/amu4umah.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/17/useguruv.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/17/e8aqu8un.jpg

Wanted to post some pics of the fish I'm growing out. These will go into my 150 planted once they are grown. About 4.5 inches now. Thanks Discus Hans for the beautiful fish!

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[Redmelons]

I am very new to discus i have been keeping fish for 30 years though. I have kept some very large fish and heavily stocked tanks . I have recently been bitten by the bug i have 6 discus juveniles about 3-4" i have them in a community tank with plants the tank is what i would call low level of stock . i have an fx6 with every tray full of bio media . I am changing 30% of the water twice a week. the tank is 550 liters about 150 gallons . the planting is about 1/2- 1/3the amount that is normally in a professional looking planted tank. I feed the discus 3-5 times a day they are eating and growing like pigs .

so in summary
lightly planted .
lightly stocked some tetras and 6 baby angels, 10 neon tetras and a clown pleco and 10 corydoras.
large bio capacity filter
6 discus
150 gallons
2x 30% water change a week .
all plants are low light some anubis swords and some water lettuce.
I use rainwater which seems to slow the plant growth except the water lettuce which thrives, no fertiliser or co2 .
Am i heading towards stunted fish or worse a slow death of all of my fish ? should i start sucking out my sub-straight and removing plants and tank mates?

[dirtyplants]

Some people like placing their discus on display, the only focal attraction, some like to try to simulate biotypes, and still some like complicated eco systems with working communities and environments and still a few are talented artistically and can create a living eco system of art that thrives. The question to you is where do you fit into as far as preferences?
Another words, which category do you prefer: display, bio type, complicated eco scape, or a living eco scape of art that thrives. Once you have decided on which type of tank you enjoy most and want to duplicate, then you can ask the appropriate questions of how best to prevent stunting in your tank's environment. You may find that this forum is very divided on the aspects of growing discus and planted environments verses bb tanks, so define your goal, and ask your questions carefully, and avoid positions of it can or can not be done.

[wolfel]

This is my first post on the forum. I have to say after read this post and discussion yesterday I was so scared that I immediately moved my two juvies from a 55 gal community planted tank into a 20 gal BB tank... They had stayed in the planted tank for around 2 weeks and hopefully that period wouldn't really stunt their growth.

This two discus were bought from LFS for experimental purposes.. I have just 1 year experience of keeping a planted tank where I fed 6 angelfish, tetras, rasboras, and red-tail shark. The tank have lush amazon sword, java moss, water wisteria and some other smaller plants. When I bought the discus, I was trying to see if I can keep discus well because they simply look farbulous (when they grow well).

One thing I observe from the them when they were in planted tank, is that they were constantly bullied by my 4 adult angelfish.... Furthermore one strong discus bullied the weak one.... so that the weak one almost always hid behind the filter. Now in the BB tank the bullying is a lot less and they two looks a lot more peaceful now. And the more important, water change is a lot easier: previously I have to diligently vacuum the gravel, rearrange the disturbed plants, and carry over 5-7 buckets of water from the bathroom due to the size of the tank, but now just 2-3 buckets and effortless cleaning! I have to say I am happier with this ending.

[BuffaloTodd]

My tank I just setup is beautiful with driftwood, rocks and gravel. Im hoping I can be a success story. If not and I fail, I will come back to this thread and cry.

[Mas84]

Well this thread doesn't fill me with confidence.................oh well challenge accepted

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd422/Mas84/tank007_zps9750eda8.jpg (http://s1219.photobucket.com/user/Mas84/media/tank007_zps9750eda8.jpg.html)