pop eye?

[Sheila]

I have one discus that has been getting darker over the last few days an not eating. Today I noticed his eyes seem to really stick out, then I noticed this on one of my other discus as well. With the exception of these 2 everyone else is fine.

I have 20 cardinals, 11 Discus and 8 Cories in this tank. It is filtered by a rena xp3 and a number 5 sponge filter. Temp is 84. I do about 40% water changes every other day right now and it is bare bottom. They get fed 4-6 times a day.

What is this and how can I treat it? Is it pop eye like other fish get?

[Sheila]

Ok, I found the questionare I was looking for, hopeflully this will help
DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

About 4 days ago one of my discus started getting dark and not eating well. Today I noticed his eyes are bulging, I also noted bulging eyes on a second discus but his color is still good.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

turning dark, not eating, bulging eyes




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

nothing yet, did a big water change yesterday



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

150g, tank itself has been set up for almost 2 years, Discus since August. 11 Discus, 20ish cardinals, 8 cories

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Tank has been running since august, bare bottom, do not age water. I changes about %40 every 2 days.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __84___

- ph _____

- ammonia reading __0__

- nitrite reading ____

- nitrate reading ____

- well water ____

- municipal water __yes__

Sorry, I don't know the rest, I will test right away.

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
added some new plants yesterday, no new fish

[judy]

I hope wiser eyes than mine read this-- I got nuthin', sorry Sheila.

[warblad79]

I used pimafix and melafix. It work for all my discus. Just google it for info and dosage

[Sheila]

Do they really work? I've read a few things saying they are a waste of money. Do you treat with both at the same time?

[lipadj46]

mela and pimafix are garbage for anything beyond small nicks and scrapes. if water changes dont work try furan 2 or kanamyacin or both

Sent from my LG-P505 using Tapatalk

[DiscusLoverJeff]

I just used Maracyn Plus and in 5 days it was gone. Did 50% water change daily.

[judy]

mela and pimafix are garbage for anything beyond small nicks and scrapes. if water changes dont work try furan 2 or kanamyacin or both

Sent from my LG-P505 using Tapatalk

+1 on the pima and melafix for sure. that much at least, I know.

[Sheila]

Here are some pics if they help
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b367/sfeys/0562.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b367/sfeys/0552.jpg
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b367/sfeys/0513.jpg

I will have to get some of that, Is it ok to treat the whole display tank? I'm concerned about the others developing this. Would increasing the temp help at all?

[Sheila]

Ok so, Maracyn 2 or Furan, I'll be leaving in a bout 1 hour to get some. What would be better, to treat in a qt tank or do the whole display, there are only 2 fish showing signs right now. Is it likely to spread to the others? I'm just a bit hesitant to use my qt as I need it in about 10 days for a kole tang I am getting. But I'm sure it will be much cheaper to treat the smaller tank. What do you think?

[DiscusLoverJeff]

QT would be best and cheaper.

[Sheila]

ok, that's what I'll do. Is there any concern for the other fish developing this? Or is it a wait an see thing?

[Ardan]

I am not certain the eyes are bulging more than normal?? eye color looks good and I really cant tell the fish is dark?

If there is an internal bacterial problem then I have used Kanamyacin. I believe also that maracyn 2 is a good med for internal bacteria.
IME pimafix and melafix and furan 2 are mostly for external problems, but that's just my own experience.
Barebottom is the only way to treat.
Always quarantine all new plants or fish.
Keep the tank very clean.

Ardan

[Sheila]

His eyes are definitely bulging, but this one still has good color. I could not get a pic of the dark one as it would not come out from hiding. I'm going to set up a qt tank for the two and treat with marycn 2, should I up the heat as well to help with their appetites? Also does anyone know if marycn 2 will kill my filters? I'm guessing it will as it is an antibacterial. I will be doing %50 water changes on the tank in either case so ammonia and nitrates should not be a problem I hope.

[DiscusLoverJeff]

It won't hurt your bio media. I just left temp alone (84 degrees) and medicated. Feeding was the same schedule nothing different there. Just make sure to do the water changes.

[judy]

In theory, it does not harm the biofilter if dosed as directed, but there are varying anecdotal reports.

[Moon]

I would not increase your heat. Bacteria love heat.

[Sheila]

Ok, heat stays the same, as for feeding neither one is eating so should I still be offering 4 to 6 times a day? or try once or twice and wait until the eat to go back to normal?

I've set up the QT tank and just want to watch it for a bit to make sure the temp stays constant before adding the fish. My hubby is picking up the marcyn 2 on his way back from airsoft so I can start treating tonight. I really hope they pull through and that no one else gets it!

[Moon]

Best not to feed them if they are not eating. You'll be fouling the water. They will start eating when they recover from the treatment.

[Aquanero]

In my experiance Tetracyline is the best antibiotic to use for this bcause Tetracycline kills both gram positive and gram negative bacteria (a broad spectrum antibiotic). Pop-Eye isn't an illness unto itself but a symtom of an underlying internal infection. Since we don't know weather the cause is gram+ or - a broad spectrum antibiotic is the best corse of action. Treatment with Maracyn in combination with Maracyn-Two is often suggested for this reason as one is gram + and the other treats gram - with either one by themselves sometimes not able to cure the infection if they treat the wrong strain of bacteria. Do a large water and treat with Tetracyline, or at minimum both types of Maracyn.

I came back to edit this but I see you're already going with Maracyn 2 alone.

[Sheila]

ok, discusloverjeff, I've started the marcyn 2, it said 2 packets per 10gallons on day one and 1 packet for 10gals every day after that for 5 days. It also said no water changes. Since I'm planning on doing water changes how much do I add?

[judy]

You would replace the med you remove in WCs... so, if you change out 50% of the water, replace 50% of the last dose you administered.
At least, I think that's how it works.

[Sheila]

That's what I'm thinking too. So If I'm supposed to put in 2 packets without a water change, I should be putting in 4 with a 50% water change.

[Sheila]

Aquanero- my hubby came home with the meds before I read your post. since that's what I have, that's what I'm going to use for now. If it doesn't work I'll grab some tetracyline.

[Brokenrack]

2 water change 1. (50%)

[Aquanero]

Aquanero- my hubby came home with the meds before I read your post. since that's what I have, that's what I'm going to use for now. If it doesn't work I'll grab some tetracyline.

For future referance Maraycn is erythromycin and is affective against gram+ bacteria. Maraycn-2 is Minocycline and is effective against gram- bacteria. In my experiance Tetracycline has been more effective over all but treatment with both Maracyns is a good albeit more expensive alturnative if your not sure which strain your fighting. Using one you have a 50/50 shot of being right.

PS follow the instructions on the meds don't deviate.

[Sheila]

ok the meds say not to change the water for 5 days, would you follow that advice? I may put in an order for some tetracycline so I have it on hand in case I need it.

[Aquanero]

I would follow the intructions on the meds. Do a large water change and start treatment. Not changing the water for 5 days wouln't hurt the fish, just make sure the water is clean at the start of treatment.

[Sheila]

I moved them into a QT tank so the water is clean. Would it still be ok to siphon out some poop during the treatment?

[Aquanero]

When I use antibiotics I don't feed the fish and I keep the lights off. The less they are stressed the better off they are while undergoing treatment. After treatment hopfuly all goes well do a large water change and let them eat. I usually wait a week before putting them back in the main tank just to make sure everything is ok and that the meds killed the infection completly.

[Sheila]

Sounds good. I will let you know how they make out!

[Sheila]

Anyone know when I should see improvement? I realize it's only be one day, but I'm just wondering what to look for.

[Aquanero]

Should see improvement in a few days. The eye swelling will start to subside. If you don't see improvement after four days switch meds.

[Sheila]

will do, would you advise going with the maracyn or just using the tetracycline if I have to switch meds?

[DiscusLoverJeff]

Hi Sheila, I noticed improvement on day 4 and on day 5 into day 6 eyes were 90% better and on day 7/8 all better and was breeding on day 8.

Good Luck as you have had some great advice!

[Aquanero]

If the M2 doesn't work go with the tetracycline. You have a few days, the M2 will probibly work just fine. Gram- is a very common bacteria and M2 is good stuff.

[Sheila]

Well, sadly the one that had turned black was dead this morning. It looked like it was breathing pretty heavy last night (although the other one wasn't), I wonder if it had something else going on. I really hope the big one pulls through:(

[DiscusLoverJeff]

So sorry Sheila. I hope the other one makes it.

[TURQ64]

If the M2 doesn't work go with the tetracycline. You have a few days, the M2 will probibly work just fine. Gram- is a very common bacteria and M2 is good stuff.

didn't work this time, eh??..That's weak stuff for fish illness..JMO.. sorry for the loss of your fish. If there is a next time, start from scratch with a decent antibiotic, and a clean tank...

[Sheila]

Well, one is still alive and seems to be doing well. What do you mean about a clean tank? The tank was clean.

[TURQ64]

Bacterial outbreaks that can lead to 'pop-eye' don't exsist in large numbers in a clean tank. 40% every other day doesn't remove enough water to remove very many pathogens...I also use a large amount of Mardel products, but as I said, they are weak. They'll off and on work in a really clean tank, but not every time, and that's not a good enough track record IMO. I find most of their products one step above MB, if that. But then, I feel the same about Melafix and Pimafix; snake oil for fish..

[judy]

I know Sheila's fishkeeping habits, and believe me, her tanks are spotlessly clean. Shes absolutely anal about that. Wait a minute, though--
didn't you just recently add a bit of driftwood to the tank, and a few plants? Could they have brought something in?
Was that the turq you got from me as a baby, Sheila?

[TURQ64]

I know Sheila's fishkeeping habits, and believe me, her tanks are spotlessly clean. Shes absolutely anal about that. Wait a minute, though--
didn't you just recently add a bit of driftwood to the tank, and a few plants? Could they have brought something in?
Was that the turq you got from me as a baby, Sheila?

Nevermind what I said then, and I'll bail out here; just presenting a fact or two since I didn't run with this from the beginning...good luck on the other one.

[Sheila]

I don't think the driftwood or the plants were the cause of the illness for the one that died. That one has been breathing harder than the others off and on since I got him. He also stopped eating and started getting darker before I added anything. The driftwood wasn't new, it's the stuff I had in there before, then took out, then decided to put back in. The plants however could be the cause of the one's buggy eyes as I didn't notice any issue with the eyes until the day after I added the plants. Funny how whatever it is only affected that one. Hopefully the buggy eyed one still has a chance.

Thanks for the defence Judy, and yes it was the one I got from you, I'm sorry......

[Aquanero]

For what it's worth I don't think the meds you used had anything to do with loosing your fish. It was obviously sick for a while and it was too late to be saved. I think the other fish had an infection also and it just reached the point where it was noticeable the day after the new plants whent in the tank. Good luck I hope it recovers.

[shoveltrash]

just a quick post to wish you luck with the other fish. no advice here......but I know the pain of losing a fish (just happened to me recently), and the struggles of trying your d*mndest to make things right. best wishes (((hug)))

[warblad79]

Sometimes its better to have a BB tank without plants or driftwoord. its just makes thing more complicated. I have the same problem before I have planted tanks but have so many issue with my Discus. So I tear down my tank and decided to have just BB tank.

[Jennie]

2 late now, but furan2 would have been choice med and u need to up wc..especially if you feed as much as 6x a day

[Sheila]

Well I hope this one recovers, it's one of my favorites. Still looking ok, eyes are still buggy but color is still good, no clamped fins either. As for daily water changes, unfortunately that's impossible, I try to do the best I can between kids,home and work but water changes every day just don't happen. I realize that they likely won't grow to be 8" monsters but I've had some pretty decent growth in the few months I have had them and no previous health issues either.

[judy]

I don't think the driftwood or the plants were the cause of the illness for the one that died. That one has been breathing harder than the others off and on since I got him. He also stopped eating and started getting darker before I added anything. The driftwood wasn't new, it's the stuff I had in there before, then took out, then decided to put back in. The plants however could be the cause of the one's buggy eyes as I didn't notice any issue with the eyes until the day after I added the plants. Funny how whatever it is only affected that one. Hopefully the buggy eyed one still has a chance.

Thanks for the defence Judy, and yes it was the one I got from you, I'm sorry......

Oh, no! Then I owe you a free turq whenever I get a new batch ready to go. My red turqs are in a spawning cycle now. I wonder what it could have been. The two I kept out are doing great...

[Sheila]

Don't worry about it, you don't have to owe me a free turq. I just feel bad, I have no idea how this happened at all, everyone else is looking awesome. The buggy eye guy is looking ok today although his right eye is still pretty out, reminds me of a telescope goldfish!

[Jennie]

I know discus can be time consuming, and that you haven't had issues before, but you are now. If issues continue to pop up, the problem is likely water quality.

[Sheila]

I agree that water quality is important, but if my ammonia is 0 and my nitrates never get higher than 5 or so... how poor can my water be? I'm not trying to slack off on proper care, I actually envy those who have time to do it every day, I just don't, lol unless I quit my job, but then I couldn't afford the buy them in the first place.

The remaining fish still seems ok, I hate that the meds make the water cloudy, it really bothers me. Tonight was the 4 dose of the meds so he's had 3 full days of treatment so far. I think the left eye is looking better although I'm not 100% sure. I honestly don't see much improvement in the right eye, this was the worse eye though.

[jimg]

I agree that water quality is important, but if my ammonia is 0 and my nitrates never get higher than 5 or so... how poor can my water be? I'm not trying to slack off on proper care, I actually envy those who have time to do it every day, I just don't, lol unless I quit my job, but then I couldn't afford the buy them in the first place.

The remaining fish still seems ok, I hate that the meds make the water cloudy, it really bothers me. Tonight was the 4 dose of the meds so he's had 3 full days of treatment so far. I think the left eye is looking better although I'm not 100% sure. I honestly don't see much improvement in the right eye, this was the worse eye though. any internal infections on discus are very hard if not impossible to treat.If it's eating I would try some anti bio in food as well.

[Sheila]

It stopped eating before I put it in QT and on the advice of another forum member I have not fed it yet in QT. I'm not sure it will eat just yet, I also don't have any antibiotic food on hand. Or do you mean putting the maracyn 2 into some food?

[jimg]

It stopped eating before I put it in QT and on the advice of another forum member I have not fed it yet in QT. I'm not sure it will eat just yet, I also don't have any antibiotic food on hand. Or do you mean putting the maracyn 2 into some food?
i would use kanamycin or oxytetracycline in food first, if not eating in the water. I wouldn't use maracyn 2 for internal issues food or water

[Sheila]

It's honestly hard to know which meds to go with, everyone has different advice!

Anyone know if this is a painful condition? I know with cats and dogs (and people) eye things are one of the most painful conditions... not sure about fish.

[jimg]

It's honestly hard to know which meds to go with, everyone has different advice!

Anyone know if this is a painful condition? I know with cats and dogs (and people) eye things are one of the most painful conditions... not sure about fish.
If you went to a pathologist they usually wouldn't tell you what antibiotic to use until they did cultures and see what anti bio the bacteria react to, here we just try guess at what has worked for us, many times different meds for same symptoms has worked. I believe the best way for many meds to work is internally so I always go internal if they are eating. pop eye, if that's what it is can be from excess fluids in the body, mostly due to kidneys not functioning and balancing internal fluids, from what I understand maracyn 2 can be very hard on the kidneys, so if I think a fish has a kidney problem, I go with what I feel works the best and does the least harm. It was posted earlier someone suggested tetracycline. that may be good too, i just like oxytetra. hope that helps. keep in mind it could be parasites, but I don't think so

[Sheila]

Well tonight is the last dose, so if the eye isn't normal by tomorrow night I guess I'll be trying tetracycline, after a big water change of course.

[jimg]

Well tonight is the last dose, so if the eye isn't normal by tomorrow night I guess I'll be trying tetracycline, after a big water change of course.my choice would be kanamycin or oxytetra.

[gabloo]

If u search around I had discus with really weird eyes issue and kanamyacin fixed it

[Chicago Discus]

Sheila be careful mixing to many meds when you start a treatment just finish it and give them a rest its amazing what clean water can accomplish. just give it a few days before you start another med and see if you have some improvement.

[Aquanero]

Sheila be careful mixing to many meds when you start a treatment just finish it and give them a rest its amazing what clean water can accomplish. just give it a few days before you start another med and see if you have some improvement.

Agreed.

As far as meds go kanamyacin is also a good broad spectrum antibiotic however it too can be also hard on kidneys. Generally it is a good med to use in this instance. I suggested tetracycline because I have used it with good results and it is easy to find at most pectco locations or LFS. I think eaither one will do the job due to thier broad spectrum effectivness.

[Sheila]

I plan on a few days rest anyway, plus I likely won't be able to get to the store for more meds until sunday at the earliest. I'm hoping I won't need them!

[Orange Crush]

I agree that water quality is important, but if my ammonia is 0 and my nitrates never get higher than 5 or so... how poor can my water be? I'm not trying to slack off on proper care, I actually envy those who have time to do it every day, I just don't, lol unless I quit my job, but then I couldn't afford the buy them in the first place.

The remaining fish still seems ok, I hate that the meds make the water cloudy, it really bothers me. Tonight was the 4 dose of the meds so he's had 3 full days of treatment so far. I think the left eye is looking better although I'm not 100% sure. I honestly don't see much improvement in the right eye, this was the worse eye though.

I know you are super busy. I get it but, if you could do big water changes every day until you get the meds it could make all the difference in the world. then you might not need the meds... :)
There is much more to water quality than what you test for. Just because the usual stuff is within the correct perameters it does not necessarily mean you have good enough water quality. Nothing beats water changes. It removes the bacteria and other polutants that build up in the tank but do not show up on water tests.

[Sheila]

Today was the last day of the maracyn 2. The eye is still buggy. I've done a large water change and will give it a few days before switching to tetracycline, I don't think kanamycin is available here. If however this is due to a kidney problem and not bacterial, is there anything I can do? I know with cats and kidney problems you can prolong their lives, but you certainly can't fix their kidneys. All the other fish are still doing great, no signs of buggy eyes in them. I did read somewhere using epsom salts to help reduce fluid build up due to kidney problems... any merit to that?

And I honestly agree with all of you about the water changes, and if I could, I would. There are certain things I need to do for myself to avoid getting daily migraines and unfortunately those things take precedence over the fish. It takes me about 60 minutes to change 50% of the water in my 150g... I just don't have that time every day.

[TURQ64]

A cheap transfer pump from the local hardware, or Canadian Tire will shorten that to 10 minutes...

[Jennie]

+1 gary^^