phosphates+light= algae???

[aztecdiscus]

Ibeen having sum issues with algae growing in my tank I been trying toremove it by adding algae clear chemicals and adding suplements for the plants and even reducing my light period so I decide to do a little research and found out that when algae grow in the tank its becazuse of to much phosphate is present in the tank so I would liketo kno if there is something to remove phosphates or lower them levels so the algae grow stop, any ideas on how I can solve my problem

[Orange Crush]

I have heard that there are phosphate removers but I have never used them so I will let someone else answer that part. It sounds like you have an inbalance of food/ferts/light. Fixing that is your permanent solution. I would not use the algae clear stuff because it will not fix the problem and it will kill any inverts (like the trumpet snails you have which will rot in your tank causing even worse issues than algae). :(

[aztecdiscus]

Wt u recomend,me,to do

[Orange Crush]

Have you tested your phosphate levels?

[pcsb23]

Really need a lot more information about the tank before we can help. It is rare that too high a level of phosphates is the cause of algae, it is usual that one of the other key nutrients is missing.

Size of tank?
Fish stock?
Low, medium or heavy planted?
Substrate?
Lights (T12, T8,T5, MH etc)?
Photoperiod?
CO2 injection?
Other ferts?
Water change?

[aztecdiscus]

180 g ,,1discus and whole bunch of tetras prolly around 80-120(neon, cardinal, rummy nose, gold tetra, black neons, )..2 atinic bulbs t5 and 3 mettal hallide bulbs i believe they are 15 to 20 k each one, medium planted no fertilizers added no co2 10 hr period lightning only hallides atinics are off ,waterchange 40% weekly

[Orange Crush]

Up your water changes. It will remove much of the nitrates etc. that the algae is using to grow. Also I recommend using ferts. If you are feeding the plants the nutrients that they need for robust growth then they will use up and starve out what the algae is needing for growth.

[Orange Crush]

180 g ,,1discus and whole bunch of tetras prolly around 80-120(neon, cardinal, rummy nose, gold tetra, black neons, )..2 atinic bulbs t5 and 3 mettal hallide bulbs i believe they are 15 to 20 k each one, medium planted no fertilizers added no co2 10 hr period lightning only hallides atinics are off ,waterchange 40% weekly

I do not understand what you are saying in regards to your lighting. It sounds like you have another light besides your actinic and halides that you use for 10 hrs???
Actinic are not very good for freshwater and the halides are very strong. Either way it sounds like you have waaaay too much lighting for your tank.

[aztecdiscus]

The hallides nd atinics are on the same fixture but i only use the halides because i kno that atinics arent good for fresh water,, regarding to wc would b a gd idea on use ro for my wc? Or use tap wtr aged of course

[andyl9063]

tap water should be fine. reduce lighting period and upp your water change to see what happen.

[Larry Bugg]

Most algae problems occur due to an inbalance of light, ferts and Co2. Pretty sure this is where Paul was going with his question about needing more info. You have a huge inbalance because you are running a lot of light over a 10 hour photo period. It would be helpful to know the actual output of your lights but with as much light as you are running you need ferts and C02. If there is a inbalance of any one of these three elements then algae becomes a problem. Personally I don't believe in throwing chemicals in the tank to control water or algae. What kind of plants do you have in the tank? You might be able to fix the problem but cutting back on the photo period and adding some ferts. If you have high light plants then you probably need to add ferts and Co2.

[aztecdiscus]

I have water sprite, cabomba, amazon sword,grass , riccia fluitan floating on the top, some anubias and i dont remember the other plants names .. My lights are 250w each bulb aand there is 3 running on my tank for 10 hrs

[pcsb23]

Not wanting to seem to disagree with folk, but ...

Up your water changes. It will remove much of the nitrates etc. that the algae is using to grow. Also I recommend using ferts. If you are feeding the plants the nutrients that they need for robust growth then they will use up and starve out what the algae is needing for growth.
Nitrates (or phosphates) don't cause algae. If there is no PO4 or NO3 then you can get algae, i.e. algae is caused because they are missing.

Put simply your tank is out of balance. You need to balance light (amount, type and duration), macro ferts , CO2 (or other carbon source) and micro ferts.

Macro ferts are often called NPK and they are:
N nitrogen from NO3
P phosphorus from PO4
K potassium from KNO3, K2PO4 and K2SO4 - note that 2 sources of Potassium also provide NO3 and PO4

I'll say it again, NO3 & PO4 do not cause algae.

You have a high light tank, even though you didn't specify the wattage (MH are high output and usually start at 125W and most common is 250W) and are nutrient poor, particularly in respect of Carbon. On a 180 pressurised CO2 is about the only way to go as it will work out cheaper than any other method. You will never beat algae in a high light tank without CO2 or other source of carbon.

If you don't want to use ferts and CO2 the lower the output of your lights and reduce photo period to 8 hours.

Usual causes of algae is too much light fo rthe available CO2, allied to too few macro and micro ferts. Add in poor water circulation and it is a recipe for algae. Most people reduce ferts when they should be increasing them.

[4discus]

"Usual causes of algae is too much light fo rthe available CO2, allied to too few macro and micro ferts. Add in poor water circulation and it is a recipe for algae. Most people reduce ferts when they should be increasing them." I agree with Pcsb23.

In my situation, I didn't really want to adjust the other elements in my tank so I worked with the lighting only first until it agreed with the tank and slightly adjusted the other elements if needed. Definit improvement so far for me.

[jimg]

I agree with everything needing to be in balance even when it includes adding elements. but imo excess phosphates will help algae to over take. I always though that is why they have been fighting for years to keep phosphates of of detergents, so they don't get into lakes and cause algae to get out of control.
I know once I got my planted tanks established they were fine, but with us having fairly high phosphates it was not easy. they add the phosphates (orthophosphate) to our water here. funny you can't use it washing but they can put in in our water!

[JamesHe]

P is fine for planted tank. it is not the source to cause algae.

It's inbalance of light, ferts, CO2, WC, feeding causing it.

Your lights is too strong IMHO.

You can add floating plants to provide surface covers and adding ABNP to help clean the glass.

Google some article of Tom Barr for more detail information.

James

[aztecdiscus]

So its either lower my light or add plants additives such potassium,iron, anf add co2?

[lipadj46]

So its either lower my light or add plants additives such potassium,iron, anf add co2?

yep i used to add excess amounts of P and never had algae. i added excess of every thing and let the light be the limiting factor

sent from my ti-85 during chemistry class

[aztecdiscus]

Ok i will add potassium everyday also organic carbon as indicated on the labels

[Orange Crush]

K is potassium
P is phosphorus
Also, if you use Excel for C be sure to use on a regular schedule because using it irregularly can also cause algae problems. Also it will cause some plants to "melt".

[Larry Bugg]

It is a 180 gallong tank. Excel or any other Co2 substitute is not going to work. The op needs regular dosing of ferts and pressurized Co2.
'

[lipadj46]

Ok i will add potassium everyday also organic carbon as indicated on the labels

you will need pressurized co2 and.dose all the macros and micros. i would reduce my lighting


sent from my ti-85 during chemistry class

[jimg]

some info http://bcn.boulder.co.us/basin/data/NEW/info/TP.html#eutrophic

[judy]

From http://www.freshwateraquariumplants.com/freshwateraquariumalgae.html
'Plants cannot grow without phosphate. However, in order to keep a planted aquarium relatively algae free, free phosphate in the water column must be minimized."


From http://freshaquarium.about.com/od/watercare/a/phosphates.htm
Phosphates (PO4) are present in every aquarium, even though many aquarium owners aren’t aware of it. If the aquarium is not properly maintained, the phosphate levels will rise and contribute to algae growth.
Effect of Phosphates
Fortunately phosphates do not directly harm your fish, even at high levels. However, the algae blooms that result from elevated phosphates can ultimately cause problems for the aquarium inhabitants. For instance, green water can deplete the oxygen, which in turn can harm the fish.

From http://www.yamatogreen.com/phosphorus.htm
The one chemical in the aquarium that is sure to cause frowns and wrinkled faces is Phosphorus.
Phosphorus can be good AND evil, depending on the circumstances.
When present in excess quantities, Phosphorus tends to cause unwanted – and unsightly – algae growth. It seems that whenever algae begins to overwhelm a tank, it is always a matter of nutrition – for the algae! Algae is similar in its requirements to our desired aquarium plants. It consumes the same nutrients: Iron, Magnesium, Potassium, Phosphates, etc. But when all nutrients are present in excess quantities (i.e., there is more in the water column or in the substrate than necessary for the plants’ immediate requirements), then this is frequently followed by an unwanted increased growth of algae.

From http://www.drsfostersmith.com/pic/article.cfm?aid=712
Almost all invasive algae growth is caused by excessive nutrients, and will be more difficult to restrict if nutrient levels are too high. The two principal nutrients we need to control are nitrate and phosphate. Remove phosphate. Keep algae's favorite nutrient out of your aquarium with phosphate controlling media and biological boosters for your filtration system.

And finally-- over the past couple of decades of planted tank keeping, i have consistently found that when my phosphate levels are high, I get algae, and when I reduce phosphate levels *changing nothing else in the water parameters* the algae goes away.
I have never found any basis for a theory that phosphate does not contribute to algae. On a macro level, city water treatment systems are partly designed around phosphate reduction to prevent algal growth in our freshwater river systems.

[lipadj46]

the whole idea that P causes algae in freshwater aquariums has pretty much been denunked by tom barr and the ei method

sent from my ti-85 during chemistry class

[jimg]

I have tried similar to his way and when i first did planted tanks followed some of his ways and ended up with massive algae blooms. I ended up putting in pmdd and tropica grow master a little at a time until I saw algae growth them timed it the best I could.
I don't believe his way could work for everyone, especially those with high phosphate levels to begin with. ime it's all balance according to each cond.

[discuspaul]

Good research and excellent post by Judy, IMO.

Just to add a touch more about phosphates and algae, there is a reference in the first article linked by Judy, which mentions certain types of fast-growing plantings, such as Hygrophila, which will strip the water of phosphates very quickly, leaving none available for algae, thus significantly reducing it's presence and proliferation.

I proved that, to myself at any rate, by having 2 large, very bushy Hygrophilas in my planted discus tank for many months, and during that time algae in my tank was at a bare minimum, almost non-existent.
The minute I started heavily pruning it, eventually eliminating it altogether, with no other changes whatsoever made to my tank routine or plant fertilizing, the algae was back with some vengeance.
I then added more plants, including replacing some Hygrophila, and the balance was quickly restored. Worked for me.

[pcsb23]

Have a read of this article, it is enlightening :)
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/algae.htm

and this one
http://www.aquariumalgae.blogspot.com/

[aztecdiscus]

Thanks guys now i set up a diy co2 generator on my tank and also more wc and regular.ferts dossing ill keep ya updated thanks for the help

[Larry Bugg]

Thanks guys now i set up a diy co2 generator on my tank and also more wc and regular.ferts dossing ill keep ya updated thanks for the help

DIY Co2 will do about 0 good on a 180 gallon tank. There is no way you can generate enough Co2 to make a difference. DIY on anything bigger than a 29 gallon is really a waste. What Co2 you do get out of it will be very inconsistent.

[pcsb23]

Larry is right, a DIY CO2 will not cut it on a 180 ... if you are going to use CO2 you need a pressurised system.

[jerman]

see if you can test your tap water for any baseline phosphate levels.

I have always used phosguard (seachem) when I had algae breakout, and stopped all ferts (consensus seems to vary on this point). phosguard will not harm your inverts and slowly deprives the algae of phosphates killing it slowly....so you don't end up with a muck of dead organic matter causing more issues....CO2 like everyone says will help tons

[aztecdiscus]

Thanks jerman, my algae problem is not as bad as it seem its just green,algae in,some of my rocks, driftwoods and a lil on plants but i still dont want rhat there .... Paul why u think my diy co2 wont work ? Still co2 at the end of the day and its dispersed by a power head that chops the bubbles into micro bubbles and,they all over the place

[pcsb23]

You cannot produce consistent quantities of CO2, or enough from DIY setups.

[judy]

Thanks jerman, my algae problem is not as bad as it seem its just green,algae in,some of my rocks, driftwoods and a lil on plants but i still dont want rhat there .... Paul why u think my diy co2 wont work ? Still co2 at the end of the day and its dispersed by a power head that chops the bubbles into micro bubbles and,they all over the place
Because you cannot make anywhere near enough CO2 with a DIY setup on a tank that size, and because the flow of whatever little bit of CO2 you do get will be very inconsistent as the mixture ramps up and then tails off.

[aztecdiscus]

Here its a video of my tank , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiTWx6ko3w4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[Larry Bugg]

You have the video listed as private so we can't see it.

[jerman]

ahh, the algae you speak of is pretty normal, and IMO the sign of a healthy tank, and almost impossible to get rid of.....The hands down best algea solution I have found is nerite snails. They dont reproduce in freshwater (migrate to salt) all they eat is algea. It will change your world.....everyone who gets them says so. Supposedly they are from florida, so if you know someone there that can grab some for you. I am sure one of the site sponsors has/or can get them for you, or you can always try google.

you will rarely have to clean your tank glass these guys are so algae hungry

[aztecdiscus]

I fix the video

[pcsb23]

A little more light reading (no pun intended!)
http://sfbaaps.org/articles/barr_02.html