My grow out tank seems like more work than letting them grow in planted?

[mdj131]

So, I have a 110 planted doing well with Rams, Neons, and SAE's's and some MTS.

I decided to get discus, followed the advice and set up another tank for growing them out.

So now I vacuum the sand in 2 tanks instead of one. The co2 helps keep my ph 8.2 aged water down around 7.6, where the grow out tank gets to stay at 8.0 because there is no co2.



Seems to me the discus would prefer the lower ph, and I would only have to vacuum one tank per day... Most of the arguments I have seen about growing out in planted tanks involve complaints that the sand must be cleaned daily... which is something I do already. Bottom line is none of my tanks ever reaches 5 ppm Nitrates.

So what are the other reasons for not growing out discus in a planted tank?


PS: I have a runt being picked on... should he be separated and maybe try to get him caught up in size?


Thanks for your knowledge!

[John_Nicholson]

First if you had listen to all of the advice from the old timers you would not have sand in the growout tank. Over the long haul the health of the youngsters will normally suffer in a with sand/gravel. Too many bad thing accumulate there.

On the runt I would leave him alone. It is completely normal. If you remove it another will just take his place and you will now own 2 runts instead of one.

-john

[mdj131]

Thanks for the advice on the runt :)

I can take out the sand easily with a hose if you think that will help, but.. the sand is clean and isn't much more work to clean than bare bottom since there is only 1/2 inch, so removing the sand doesn't solve the "extra work when its supposed to be less work" issue for me...

[John_Nicholson]

Raising discus correctly = work

It is just how it is. Most of the highly successful people change large amounts of water daily. While I am reworking stuff in the fish house and have it shut down currently when running I change between 400 and 600 gallons of water a day.

-john

[pcsb23]

To the OP, it would be easier for sure if you removed the sand from the grow out. This way doing large frequent water changes and wipe downs will just be easier and there is less to affect the water quality. John is right growing out discus to get the best from them (and therefore gain a lot more personal satisfaction) is work, whether that work is worth it to you or anyone else is for you to decide. But if done diligently then the fish will show it.

[pcsb23]

Don't think either John or me are saying it is hard. I think if you were to read it correctly we are actually indicating that it is easy if some fairly simple and basic principles are understood and followed. To raise discus correctly does involve more work than many other fish, but it is not hard.

[John_Nicholson]

Don't think either John or me are saying it is hard. I think if you were to read it correctly we are actually indicating that it is easy if some fairly simple and basic principles are understood and followed. To raise discus correctly does involve more work than many other fish, but it is not hard.

Well said Paul

-john

[John_Nicholson]

As anyone that knows me I love opinions. It just seems that here lately lots of newbies aren't just expressing opinions. They are acting like experts and by doing such misleading other newbies. I have nothing against questioning stuff. But thats not what you did, You make a statement. Keep the questions coming and good luck.

Glad you liked the joke. I thought it was pretty good.

-john

[mdj131]

I did not mean to start a ... debate?

I am listening but still don't understand, perhaps I am missing something right in front of me.

Option A: Clean 2 tanks daily, one of them can be bare bottomed and one requiring 1/2 hour of pushing sand around.


Option B: Clean one tank and push sand around for a half hour.

There is only one difference in water quality between option A and option B according to my test kits: The bare tank has a ph .4 higher.

I already clean the dickens out of the planted tank... why add an extra water change to my day?

I am not saying I am too lazy to do it, it shouldn't be done, etc... I am here to be educated on the "why".

If my sand is clean and I am willing to keep it that way... how does this actually affect the Discus as compared to bare bottomed?

I haven't raised any discus to any size... thus the foolish questions. I want to learn to be less foolish so my Discus grow to their full potential, but I want to understand the reasons behind doing it in what *seems* to *me* to be a redundant method considering I already get to clean sand daily either way I go....

[pcsb23]

I did not mean to start a ... debate?

I am listening but still don't understand, perhaps I am missing something right in front of me.

Option A: Clean 2 tanks daily, one of them can be bare bottomed and one requiring 1/2 hour of pushing sand around.


Option B: Clean one tank and push sand around for a half hour.

There is only one difference in water quality between option A and option B according to my test kits: The bare tank has a ph .4 higher.

I already clean the dickens out of the planted tank... why add an extra water change to my day?

I am not saying I am too lazy to do it, it shouldn't be done, etc... I am here to be educated on the "why".

If my sand is clean and I am willing to keep it that way... how does this actually affect the Discus as compared to bare bottomed?

I haven't raised any discus to any size... thus the foolish questions. I want to learn to be less foolish so my Discus grow to their full potential, but I want to understand the reasons behind doing it in what *seems* to *me* to be a redundant method considering I already get to clean sand daily either way I go....




Option B: clean one tank daily, and tI'll try and simplify it and I understand it from your point of view. Not sure how much water you change in the planted tank, but I bet it is not 50% per day ... or more!

Lets get something clear here. I am not saying you can't grow discus out in planted tanks, or that you can't get them to their best potential, because you can - BUT you really need to know what you are doing with both planted tanks and discus! And to get the best out of the discus it really does become hard work!

In bare tanks you can change as much of the water as you like as often as you like. If there is one "secret" to growing out discus it is this, change the water frequently and change a lot of it! Experience tells us that by feeding them heavily and then doing large daily changes they grow to their best potential. This is so much easier to do in a bare tank than a planted tank, and so much easier to do in a bare tank than a tank with sand in. Once you get experienced in discus you will soon work out what works best for you and maybe one day grow some out on a planted tank for the hell of it (I did btw !!).

[Cambik]

I did not mean to start a ... debate?

I am listening but still don't understand, perhaps I am missing something right in front of me.

Option A: Clean 2 tanks daily, one of them can be bare bottomed and one requiring 1/2 hour of pushing sand around.


Option B: Clean one tank and push sand around for a half hour.

There is only one difference in water quality between option A and option B according to my test kits: The bare tank has a ph .4 higher.

I already clean the dickens out of the planted tank... why add an extra water change to my day?

I am not saying I am too lazy to do it, it shouldn't be done, etc... I am here to be educated on the "why".

If my sand is clean and I am willing to keep it that way... how does this actually affect the Discus as compared to bare bottomed?

I haven't raised any discus to any size... thus the foolish questions. I want to learn to be less foolish so my Discus grow to their full potential, but I want to understand the reasons behind doing it in what *seems* to *me* to be a redundant method considering I already get to clean sand daily either way I go....

The main reason it is advised to use a BB tank is that small Juvinile Discus require lots of daily feedings. Some of the foods that are recommended (not required) to be fed can get stuck in the gravel. This can lead to some nasties. This also allows for easy and quick cleanings of a tank. I will say that it is a lot faster to do a quick cleaning of the BB tank. I also had a tank with sand/gravel and it took me twice as long sometimes more. Even when I thought I had everything there was still junk and stuff in the gravel/sand. I hope this helps to answer the question.

[mdj131]

Ahh... I didn't think of the extra surface area for bacteria and other nasties. I can see now... that sand is like having a square mile of glass for stuff to live on, and you can't scrape it like glass. And so bare is the preferred method, whether workload is accounted for or not.

Thank you for driving that point home for me. Understanding *why* turns it from extra work to extra "care" from my perspective :)

[joanstone]

This is my opinion based on the group of juvies that I recently grew out-they were my first grow outs. I had five 2 - 2 1/2 inch discus being grown out in a BB 30 gallon tank in preparation for going into my 220. I was able to change the water in that tank 2X a day and it was a very quick process (a matter of minutes) the way I had everything set up. I fed them a lot, they pooped a lot and they grew a lot. I think it comes down to the actual amount of water you're changing. Doing sizeable water changes on a 110 gallon tank to grow out juvies doesn't really make sense to me when you can do them on a smaller tank with great results. I think most people initially find the thought of all the water changes ridiculous based on their previous fish experience, myself included, but if you ask me it's the way to go.

[steakman]

Giving advice has to be the same concept of giving a gift. It's up to the receiver to do what he or she wants with that gift. But a lot of times I've seen the so call experts giving advice in this forum wanted the advice seekers to accept it without questioning.

You are freely giving advice if you want to. Nobody forces you to give. You can always ignore it and move to the next topic. The receivers want to take it or not is up to them.

What I hate the most is "why did you ask the question and ignore the advice!", or at time they acted like kids "if you seek advice, and you don't listen to us, or question us, we'll give you nothing the next time you ask!" blah blah blah ...

Most of us have children ourselves. How come our children seldom listen to our soundly advice, even though we were all "been there, done that".

My "advice" is "We should give advice unconditionally. The receivers do whatever they want with it".

Sometimes, the only way for them to know if the stove is hot or not, is to touch it.

[MKD]

seem like you like plant and discus. at one point, i was the same way but I hit a block wall did not know i want to save plants or discus. When the discus were sick, i did not want to re-start the tank so i had to raise tempeture and med to cure them, by doing so, i'll melt those plants. Same thing happen when you try to fight for algae, you have to make sure what you put in the tank will be safe for plants and discus. Once, i switched to BB tank, it's much easier to clean, 'cause all the waste travels and ends at 1 spot, that makes so easy to vacumn it. no need to stand there and vacumn every single spot. now i have multiple tanks 180, 150, 55, (3x)25, 29, (2x) 10. it's all up to your expectation, how do you want your discus look like, cause some people are happy with stunted football shape. all the above are proper care advices for discus, so it's up to you to do it or will learn from your own mistake that i totally understand 'cause most of us are hardheaded including me think best learn for your own mistake. 2 cents, please correct me if i am wrong.

[x2h]

Giving advice has to be the same concept of giving a gift. It's up to the receiver to do what he or she wants with that gift. But a lot of times I've seen the so call experts giving advice in this forum wanted the advice seekers to accept it without questioning.

You are freely giving advice if you want to. Nobody forces you to give. You can always ignore it and move to the next topic. The receivers want to take it or not is up to them.

What I hate the most is "why did you ask the question and ignore the advice!", or at time they acted like kids "if you seek advice, and you don't listen to us, or question us, we'll give you nothing the next time you ask!" blah blah blah ...

Most of us have children ourselves. How come our children seldom listen to our soundly advice, even though we were all "been there, done that".

My "advice" is "We should give advice unconditionally. The receivers do whatever they want with it".

Sometimes, the only way for them to know if the stove is hot or not, is to touch it.

very well said.

I've heard a lot of success with BB tanks to grow out discus. when it comes to planted tank for growing out discus, it's a mixed bag. probably b/c you are dealing with two challenges instead of one. BB tank is like a no brainer, easy to follow. planted tank needs a lot of tweak and knowledge and is hard to learn, only the skilled can do it well.

[mdj131]

After reading for 2 days I am honing my strategy a bit, I have learned a lot here.

I will siphon out the 1/2 inch sand as I am doing my 50% per day water changes. I have all the time in the world so I may do 2 a day. I have plenty of aged water for it. What I am gathering is that I need to treat these 6 discus like they are 400 guppy fry... feed them constantly and wc them constantly. No problem there, been there done that, it sucks in the PITA department but the result rocks with guppies so I see the parallel.

As far as the planted tank part goes, I'm all good, been growing for years and if the plants die from heat then that's fine, I will replace with more heat tolerant plants. My tank would look fine with discus and driftwood only so I am more concerned about growing these discus up right now, cultivating plants is something I can spend some time on once they are grown. I figure the plants I have in the 110 that can't take the heat will soon be showing signs... I can replace any that die with heat tolerant plants whenever I get around to it. Discus first, plants second, for me at least.

[pcsb23]

After reading for 2 days I am honing my strategy a bit, I have learned a lot here.

I will siphon out the 1/2 inch sand as I am doing my 50% per day water changes. I have all the time in the world so I may do 2 a day. I have plenty of aged water for it. What I am gathering is that I need to treat these 6 discus like they are 400 guppy fry... feed them constantly and wc them constantly. No problem there, been there done that, it sucks in the PITA department but the result rocks with guppies so I see the parallel.

As far as the planted tank part goes, I'm all good, been growing for years and if the plants die from heat then that's fine, I will replace with more heat tolerant plants. My tank would look fine with discus and driftwood only so I am more concerned about growing these discus up right now, cultivating plants is something I can spend some time on once they are grown. I figure the plants I have in the 110 that can't take the heat will soon be showing signs... I can replace any that die with heat tolerant plants whenever I get around to it. Discus first, plants second, for me at least.Sounds like a good pragmatic approach - good luck and keep us updated :)

[andyl9063]

I got the best method for you. take out all the plants and put them in discus tank. remove and sand/substrate from plant tank. Put discus in with the other fishes.
Let your plants grow out and your discus grow out in the bare bottom tank. This way you only have to clean and siphon one tank.
When your fish reach max size, put plants and substrate in.
The only thing you can't get away is lots and lots of clean water and food. That's how I raise mine. Mine are 5-6 inches now

[ExReefer]

One option not mentioned is a sand only bottom with a few pieces of wood in the tank (no plants). I have (and still do) raise medium sized and up discus with a sand bottom. I would not try this with discus under 3.5-4". They require too many feedings. I personally like to start with 4" fish for this.

The trick is to use an extremely shallow sand bed. I'm talking 1/4" depth at the most. It's just enough to cover the glass and in some areas it could only be 1/8" deep You still cannot wipe the bottom, but because it's so thin, the sand bed cannot hold much waste. I also like to keep a school of cories to shift through the sand. If you use a catfish friendly, soft sand, the cories will constantly work through the sand. It's expensive for sand, but you don't need much to cover the bottom. I really like the this product: http://www.caribsea.com/pages/products/instant_aquarium.html. I used one 20 bag of Sunset Gold for the floor of my 125G. The grain size is very small so it's harder for particles of waste to sink into the sand. The fish poop sits on top of the sand and it's easy to siphon off.

This method is obviously not as clean as bare bottom, but it's the next best option IMO. I only use this in my show tank. My other discus tanks in my fish room are painted bare bottom.

[timmac69]

Hello all....I have another consideration here (benefit?) to a grow out tank versus putting the juvies in an established planted tank. I have sub-adults in a 90 gallon and do frequent 50% WC...which means I am doing my best to finance college educations for children of my water company employees when my water bill comes due. I have a much smaller BB grow out tank that gets daily water changes, and much less water to extract/replace, making a lesser dent in my already high water bill, as well as keeping the time it takes to complete those daily changes to a minimum.