water quality in planted tank with discus?

[walt3]

may seem silly but how do people keep water quality up in a planted discus tanks when unable to vac the substrate? are the water changes enough with the live plants present? i see so many planted tanks with adult discus so i guess it works... :) am i missing something? thanks for the help. walt.

[discuspaul]

IME, it's never impossible to do at least some reasonable level of vacuuming in a planted tank, unless it's very heavily planted, in which case one really shouldn't be tryimg to keep discus in that environment, even if they're adults. They need some free swimming space at any rate.
It's usually a matter of how you arrange your plantings to permit some vacuuming.
One can still do very good cleansing maintenance in a planted tank, along with the essential wcs, and thereby maintain acceptably good water quality.

[walt3]

thanks.

[tonytheboss1]

:bandana: I hope I can find that happy medium. I'm moderately planted but I try not to vacuum too heavily. Just kinda skim the surface & open areas. No discus yet so we'll see how it goes. "T"

[Maria Ashton]

The issue I find with a lightly planted tank is that food falls between the stems of the plants and no matter how much you vacum there are still bits of waste around the base of the plants which you can not get to easily. I often lift my plants out of the substrate and shake before a large WC, I try to do two large ones a week but sometimes its more. Even with corydora as a clean up crew its an issue. Snails can also help but just as easily get out of hand. If you do large WCs on a regular and frequent basis you should find it works but sand or a bare bottom tank work much easier.

[Demosthenes]

You also have to realize that waste being trapped in the root systems of plants does not have the same effect on water quality as waste that is just sitting on a bare floor rotting away. If plants have enough light and CO2 and are actually growing well they will be recycling the nutrients in fish waste. The key to maintaining water quality in a planted tank is keeping a balance between the nutrients going in to the tank and the nutrients being used up by the plants. If the plants are not growing well, or there is lots of algae, it's a good indicator that the balance is off.

Another factor is that most planted tanks are heavily populated with snails and/or shrimp. I know in my tank there is not a single scrap of food that goes uneaten. (also an interesting note, I've witnessed the shrimp and snails actually eating the discus poop!)

I'm a discus newbie, but I've been keeping planted tanks and haunting planted tank forums for years. I'm still not sure how discus fit into the equation, so I'll let the discus experts chime in.

Part of me wonders if perhaps the problems a lot of discus keepers face in keeping planted tanks come from trying so hard to keep the tank free of waste that they never allow the plants to really root and grow. Maybe the key is to only put discus in pre-established planted tanks? Just speculating though.

[trong]

+1, yes to Demosthenes

[trong]

as long as you have a hungry cleaning crew

[greengreen84]

Hi Walt3 I have to agree with Demosthenes on a good clean up crew having snails and shrimp is a must especially if a fish dies, but also having a good UV filter can do wonders for good health as well to kill any bad bacteria I've had a few discus die from bacterial infections which could've been prevented with a UV light filter, you can read up on it if you look at diana walstad method planted tanks she has section on how a Uv filter can improve the health of fish.

Another thing if you can convert your discus to mostly dried food such as black worms or brine shrimp were the food floats on the surface of the water you won't get any food decaying in the plants and it will stop them picking around in the substrate looking for food, normally that's where they pick up those nasty bacterial infections so if you have
- good sized clean up crew like 100+ red cherry shrimp or something else if you want
- a UV filter make sure it can handle your tank size and flow rate
- food that floats such as freeze dried black worms or brine shrimp
- you can also use a small power head or wave maker to circulate the nutrients around so they don't build up in one spot and your plants grow even better for it to as long as it's not to strong

If you do this you can even try a low tech or non co2 planted tank and change the water every 3 to 6 weeks as long as you have adults (the juv discus don't do so well but in my experience) you may think I'm crazy to leave the water for that long and alot of people may disagree with this method even if they haven't tryed it but if you set it up probley and don't overcrowed your discus they will love you for it for having stable water conditions.

[Orange Crush]

In one of my planted community tanks (no discus) I have a ton of red cherry shrimp and some snails that keep the substrate practacly spotless so I almost never have to vacuum it. I still do weekly wc's but they, along with the plants, really help keep the water clean. However, discus will try to eat red cherry shrimp and I do not have plants or substrate in my discus tank. I have read too many threads saying it is very difficult to keep discus healthy in that environ esp if they are not adults.
Here is more info on discus in planted tanks: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?93624-My-Planted-Tank-Experience

[walt3]

72677thanks. my discus are adults now. i have lots of clean up crew guys plus some shrimp that mostly hide but i do see them from time to time so iknow there in there. i have a power head creating a good current across the back of the tank so i get some nice circular mellow flow. im not using co2 and no ferts at the moment. i cant find root tabs around me and i keep forgeting to order. i know my plants want them.:( 260 watts of compact flourescents at the moment. was running half that but am trying to give the plants better lighting. i will cut back in half if algae starts to show its ugly head. 6500 k. all of them. let me know what you think of the tank. bad lighting in this pic. the fish are prettier than that.:(

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Walt, long time no talk, how are you? =)

The pic of your tank looks really nice! It seems a bit crowded for the discus but that might just be the angle of the pic making the tank look smaller than it actually is. 75g, right?
I'd consider that to be a lightly planted tank, which means that the plants aren't going to be consuming a whole lot of the crud that settles into the substrate so be sure to keep stirring up the gravel in the front during cleanings and siphon gently around the plants in order to grab any food that has fallen into the leaves and around the base of the plants.

My cleanup crew also does a fabulous job of making sure no food gets left lying around, but they do miss some of it around my plants.

My only other question is about the age of your fish. You said that they are adults, and they sure do look a whole lot bigger than they did last August, but they don't look like full adults yet. Again, it might be the pic that's tricking my eyes, but the ventral fins look pretty short. In my adult discus those fins trail along behind their bodies, almost to their caudal fins.

If your discus were 2.5" back in August they should still have some growing to do, so don't let up on the frequent water changes and frequent feeding schedule, ok? My younger batch of fish were 3.5 - 4" back in July and are now about 6 - 7" and still growing! The older batch was 4" last April and seem to have slowed down in growth for the most part, except for 2 of them who are growing VERY slowly, but still growing.

I very much want to be able to cut back on water changes and reduce feedings even more, but can't till all those guys are fully grown to max potential. (smallest is 6" and largest is 8.75") So this is off topic, but I didn't want to breeze past it and not say anything about the size and ages of your discus. Would hate for them to not finish growing out completely. =)

Ohhhhh, forgot to add that pairing and laying eggs isn't an indicator that they are adults. I had a 4", brand new to me, discus last July who paired with my 6" Red Scrib and started laying eggs the first week in the tank. The egg laying has slowed down her growth to the point that she is now what I'd consider slightly stunted (eyes are just a wee bit large) and she's only 5" at this point. The 6" Red Scrib is now 8.75" and finally seems to be full grown.

[walt3]

i guess they might still be growing. i still do over 1/3 daily as well. dont really want to stop as i like the high water quality. there ventral fins are crazy long and trail behind. i love the look so they have those for sure.:) its a 75 gallon. i guess i could remove the left piece of wood. its my least favorite and would add some more open area. i agree now that they are bigger the tank looks silly small i think. i looked huge before :(

[strawberryblonde]

Ahhhh, I thought perhaps the picture wasn't showing the long ventral fins! I love them too...soooooo pretty.

Isn't it amazing how small the tank looks once the fish grow out??? I started mine in a 54g pentagonal tank and it looked huge with the five of them in there. Now it's being used as a temporary breeding tank and just TWO of my discus look like they fill the thing up.

It was also hilarious to see my original five when I put them into their new 115g home last June. They looked so small and lost in there and now they dominate the whole tank.

I think they have enough open areas for feedings, they just look a bit cramped for swimming space, but then again, it could just be the picture and the angle it was taken since I know a lot of people keep 6 adult discus in a 75g.

Count on yours growing a bit more though before they're done. Mine continued to grow and grow and grow and I've owned them since last March. (smaller ones since July)

I do the same daily water changes, or skip and do every other day so long as it's a huge 80% change when I skip a day. I also don't feed beefheart if I'm skipping a day. LOL

[walt3]

i feed mainly live food so not to concerned with food escaping the population.:) i have heard maybe 1.5 years for full grow out. purchased at lfs so dont know age for sure. golf balls plus fins at purchase.

[mdj131]

Has anyone tried using fast growing plants to help control nitrates? Some human waste processing plants use duckweed... There are some floating mosses that grow super fast, valisnera can take off... weeds to many enthusiasts BUT, I bet it would make a big difference on the nitrates and other organics too if you had pearling "weeds" hehe.

[judy]

It makes SOME difference, but not a big difference, IME.