Ammonia or Ammonium?

[Teshi]

So here's my story. I got a 55gal tank that I'd set up just after Christmas and did a fishless cycle on it. All good.

I went to my LFS and purchased 4 discus (2 blue diamond, 2 Blue snakeskin) They all died with in a week. =( A few things caused this. One the heater I purchased from them was faulty and I didn't realize it until after I had fish in the tank. Second that I NOW know do to this forum, They were just not good fish. They were very dark and had just arrived a week earlier. My LFS replaced the heater and said they would replace the fish when I was ready to restock. After the fish died I did a test and it showed ammonia in my tank. So I did a few water changes and let it set a week and continued testing it. FYI I have 7 rummy nose and 6 cardinal tetras still in the tank. After a week no ammonia showing or nitrites. So I decided to go to a different LFS and check out their discus. OMG what a difference in the fish. These Blue diamonds hand a beautiful light opal glisten to them. And the Blue snakeskins were so different also. So I decided to purchase 3 of them (smack me, I know I should have gotten more but after the first 4 dieing I was shy). Anyway I've had them in the same tank over a week now and I've been testing the water daily. I am still getting ammonia lvls of between .25-.05. I am doing daily pwc of between 30-50%. (This wonderful python makes it so much easier). No nitrites or nitrates ever show with tests. Ph is high at about 8.2. (I'm the one worried about the fish eating btw).

Anyway, I went back to my closer LFS (that the fish died) and looked at the fish again. They STILL looked terrible in the one tank. All the fish were still very dark and huddled up in the upper left hand corner. The other tank looked good. (wish i would have brought my camera to show you) The owner was still selling the fish out of all 3 tanks. I told him I wouldn't purchase discus from him in the future unless he would change things. He told me this was a very bad batch of fish and should never had sold out of the tank. He further told me that these fish were not for sale until further notice because of this and showed me the not for sale on the tank (oops i missed it). He offered to give me my money back for the 4 fish that died. I took it =). But when I was there I told him I keep testing for ammonia and he asked me if I was sure it was ammonia or ammonium? I've no clue. Whats the difference? Is there tests for it? Is my PH being so high a factor? The new fish still look great!

PS: what did we ever do without the internet?

[jimg]

low levels as you show will not hurt the fish,(short term). ammonia changes to less toxic ammonium starting at/below ph of 7.0 and ends up ammonium at about ph of 6.0. best to stay away from most advice from lfs especially with discus

[Teshi]

This place isn't a chain store. It truely is a LFS. They've been locally owned and operated for over 35yrs. *sigh* I guess it just goes to show you. :( Trust is earned.

[peglegderek]

did U get the Ph down? when i started keeping Discus i learned the hard way about PH!!! i keep my PH in the low 6's and it was coming out of the tap at 8 or higher!!! try Discus Buffer it works well! so thats what id do the "homesteaders" may have diffrent advice though.

[jimg]

did U get the Ph down? when i started keeping Discus i learned the hard way about PH!!! i keep my PH in the low 6's and it was coming out of the tap at 8 or higher!!! try Discus Buffer it works well! so thats what id do the "homesteaders" may have diffrent advice though.there is a good reason others may have different advice:)

[discuspaul]

Ammonia (NH3 - toxic to fish)) and Ammonium (NH 4 - ionized ammonia- non-toxic) are generally both produced in a fish tank.
The quantity, or ratio, of each compound produced, whether unionized ammonia (NH3), or ionized ammonia (ammonium - NH4), results as a function of the effect of pH and temperature on ammonia.

The lower the pH and the higher the water temp, the greater the amount of non-toxic ammonium which is present, vs. ammonia. Conversely, the higher the pH and the lower the water temp, the greater the quantity (or ratio) of toxic ammonia is produced in the tank vs. ammonium.

Example -In a discus tank, with pH well under 7.0, say 6.0, and a temp of say 84 F, the level of toxic ammonia produced is extremely low, almost non-existent. At a pH of 8.0 or above, and a temp of say 80F or less, the ratio of toxic ammonia is very high.

The ammonia chart in a Nutrafin Master test kit reflects this very well. At pH of 6.00, up to 7.8
the ammnonia/ammonium concentration, or ratio, is such that 1.2 ppm is completely safe for fish, and even a concentration of 7.3 ppm is safe @ pH of 6.0 up to 7.0, but not above 7.0

The pH of your tank is obviously the culprit and you should find safe ways and means (i.e. without the use of chemicals) of reducing that to well under 8.0, to preclude the problem ongoing.
The use of peat, water treatment means, ageing water, buffering agents, etc. can do this for you. Perhaps others with good experience in this area can chime in to assist. It's never been a concern for me as the water out of the tap here is 7.0 ph or less, soft, acidic, with low TDS's and low GH, and my tank water maintains very steady in the 6.2 to 6.4 pH range.
Hope this explains things for you a bit.

[Teshi]

that does explain a lot thank you. I do have a RO filter but it only makes 25gal in 24hrs. I'd constantly be making RO. And with the waste water and me doing daily PWC this isn't very practical. My tank never gets any daylight. I'm a night nurse and sleep during the day. The tank is in my bedroom. So plants aren't really an option unless anyone has a miracle plant that needs no sunlight. I do have discus buffer but haven't used it. I will tonight with my PWC. Thanks for helping me understand this a bit better.

I feel like I should have majored in chemistry to keep discus ;)

[jimg]

I do have discus buffer but haven't used it. I will tonight with my PWC. the best thing you can do is not mess with your ph, it is fine.

[Teshi]

lol If i did buffer would it help keep the ammonia down? I don't understand why I am getting high ammonia readings on a cycled tank.

[jimg]

lol If i did buffer would it help keep the ammonia down? I don't understand why I am getting high ammonia readings on a cycled tank. lower the ph that much that fast is not good. even if your ph is below 7.0 that makes the ammonia less toxic, but you will still get nitrites after the ammonia. do you have nitrate readings? also ammonia was low with less fish you had smaller bio colonies, you added more fish have more waste but bio colonies didn't catch up yet.

[Teshi]

my nitrites and nitrates are 0. I did get nitrates when I cycled my tank.

Will I ever get to less than daily PWC?

[jimg]

my nitrites and nitrates are 0. I did get nitrates when I cycled my tank.

Will I ever get to less than daily PWC? it all depends on your stocking,feeding and water make up.

[Orange Crush]

I agree with Jim, your pH is fine. Discus want consistant pH even if it is 8.2. Using stuff to make your pH lower will result in the pH going up and down everytime you do a water change, really bad news.
If your nitrAtes are 0 with 30-50% daily wc then your tank is cycling again. To be safe I would test for ammonia and nitrItes daily as well as do larger water changes until your tank is done cycling.
Ammonia is not good with an alkaline pH so I would keep doing wc daily until your tank is fully cycled. After that it is up to you whether you want to do daily wc or not but if you want happy, healthy discus you should always do daily wc regardless of what your water test kits say. There is more to water quality than just the things that you can test for.

[Teshi]

Yep I've been testing for ammonia daily. It always goes up to like .50 so I do a PWC. At least I'm getting this right. I love these fish. They are awesomely Beautiful ... well to me anyway. Wonder what threw it into a new cycle. Poor fish. Thanks for the advice. No buffer.

[Orange Crush]

I recommend changing the water frequently enough to keep the ammonia level as close to 0 as possible and also not let it go over .25

[Teshi]

How many times a day can you do a pwc? and how soon after doing a pwc should I be checking my ammonia again?

[Teshi]

I did a big wc last night due to high ammonia pushing 1.0. But when I got up this morning instead of a nice crystal clear tank it is all cloudy. I've not had this happen before. My water is usually very crystal clear after a change. I've tested this morning and everything tests 0 ph 8.2. No dead fish. The only thing I've changed was adding a bio media slot to my penguin 350 I put matrix in it. Would that cause the water to turn cloudy at first? I did rinse it good in the water I drained during my water change.

[jimg]

I did a big wc last night due to high ammonia pushing 1.0. But when I got up this morning instead of a nice crystal clear tank it is all cloudy. I've not had this happen before. My water is usually very crystal clear after a change. I've tested this morning and everything tests 0 ph 8.2. No dead fish. The only thing I've changed was adding a bio media slot to my penguin 350 I put matrix in it. Would that cause the water to turn cloudy at first? I did rinse it good in the water I drained during my water change.
normal
it's staring to cycle it will be that way for some time..

[jimg]

If your worried you can get some tetra safe start or dr timms, but you can't do much wc's or cleanings until it works. most of the time it works but there have been some occasions where they have not. I found with them, there will/may be ammonia of up to .50 for a week but then the nitrite will skip right into nitrates. my experience is they work 70%+ of the time,no other similar products work at all

[PAR23]

the best thing you can do is not mess with your ph, it is fine.

+ 1. Manipulating your pH can lead to disaster. My pH is 8.0.....Tap.....No RO

[Teshi]

+ 1. Manipulating your pH can lead to disaster. My pH is 8.0.....Tap.....No RO

I decided not to mess with my ph. After reading here for a while now that has gotten through.

Will the cloudy water hurt the fish? is it ok to leave it this way? Should I do a water change even though things are testing 0?

[PAR23]

What is reading "zero"? The cloudy water in itself will not harm the fish

[Teshi]

Ammonia-0 Nitrites-0 Nitrates-0 Ph-8.2

[PAR23]

Not sure why your Nitrates are zero since the tank was cycled before you added the discus. Is it a new/recent test kit and what kit is it?

[Teshi]

I just bought a new API kit yesterday when i was at my LFS. I got it for a couple reasons. I didn't have a high ph test. And with getting 0 readings on the trites and trates I wanted to make sure my testers weren't "old".

I am going to relax about the cloudy water because the fish are eating and acting totally normal. No signs of stress or different behavior due to the cloudy water.

[PAR23]

Agree no need to worry. Just bacteria bloom. It will clear up soon enough