Pull eggs to do Meth Blue treatment, then return to tank?

[Sasha]

I have a confirmed mated pair (have had wigglers). I do not have a problem with the eggs growing fungus, but many of the eggs do seem to calcify after the first 24-40 hours or so. I've read on the Forum that Meth Blue may indeed improve the "oxygenation" through the egg casing to support embryo growth and reduce losses. So, I want to try it. However, I do not want to interfere with the filter biosystem, nor am I pleased by the possibility of permanently blue silicon seams in my tank.

So, option A: what about removing the spawn cone for a short while and put into an aerated bucket filled with water dosed with Meth Blue, keep them in there for approx 30 minutes, then putting them back in the main tank with the parents?

or, option B: pull the spawn cone out of water, drip with a few drops of Meth Blue right onto the eggs, then place the spawn cone immediately back into the tank? Maybe do this a few times a day for the first 48 hours?

Ideas? Thoughts?

[LizStreithorst]

I use option B. I only do it once.

[DonMD]

I've dosed with meth blue in 29g tank with zero staining of clear silicone, dramatically increasing successful fry, no worries. Dose once after fertilization, then daily w/c gradually clears water.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

[Sasha]

I use option B. I only do it once.

Great, thanks Liz! How soon after spawn do you do it?

[Sasha]

I've dosed with meth blue in 29g tank with zero staining of clear silicone, dramatically increasing successful fry, no worries. Dose once after fertilization, then daily w/c gradually clears water.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk

Thanks, Don. Do you dose at full dosage or half dosage?

[nc0gnet0]

Acryllic breeding tanks ;)

You can also mix up a small batch of meth blue and water and draw it into a syringe or small turkey baster and then fog the eggs without removing the cone.

[LizStreithorst]

I wait an hour.

[DonMD]

I dosed at the recommended strength, it worked just fine. It makes it hard to see your fish for a few days, even with daily 50% w/c's, but it doesn't bother the fish at all, and it didn't stain my silicone. Best of all, I had zero fungus on the eggs. That doesn't mean it might not stain yours. But my tank was for breeding only and not a display tank, so I didn't care if it did. Good luck.

[Sasha]

Thank you to all.

As an FYI, I did the Option B as noted above, and it did not seem to address my "problem" of some of the eggs (approx 25-40%) going from a deep orange translucent egg to an opaque "orange sherbet" color 20-48 hours after spawn.

As I mentioned above, I don't think I have an issue with fungus at all (there is no white or fuzzy stuff that I can see with the naked eye).

We'll see if I get any wigglers tomorrow afternoon.

[nc0gnet0]

What is the TDS of your water? Also, meth blue won't fertilize your eggs for you, only the male can do that.

Rick

[Sasha]

What is the TDS of your water? Also, meth blue won't fertilize your eggs for you, only the male can do that.

Rick

Ha ha. Roger that on the role of the male.

Regarding TDS, I don't have a TDS meter, but I know that my dGH and dKH are between 2 and 3. I use a mix of RO water and well water (aged, circulated, and heated of course).

I've had wigglers twice before, so I know that my water will at least support the eggs/fry development to that stage, and that my male is indeed doing his job at least partly.

[texasdiscusman]

You really need a Tds meter or a conductivity meter.If your water mix is right and just because the male is making passes.Does not mean he is fertilizing them right.Also you do not say what type of filter you are using?

[LizStreithorst]

I agree with you and Rick. The guy needs a TDS meter. Hanna makes a great one. It measures in TDS or mS. (I always go by the conductivity) It cost a bit but it has lasted me 10 years. What more could I ask? IMO, if you are breeding it is a necessary tool.

[BoiseDiscusGuy]

Are you sure you are not mistaking unfertilized eggs for calcification?

[Sasha]

I will look into the TDS meter.

Totally understand about the male - making passes does not equal fertilization. However, I have had a decent percentage of wigglers hatch out of whatever quantity of eggs remain at 55+/- hours after spawn. (The pair seems to take excellent care of the eggs until about 48 hours, at which time they begin eating some of them.) Anyway, the point is that the male is indeed fertilizing what appears to be a decent percentage of the eggs, based on my unexperienced eye).

With respect to me mistaking unfertilized eggs for calcification -- that is totally possible. Based on my reading, however, most of the people on this forum have indicated that unfertilized eggs turn "white" shortly after the spawn (within a few hours???) I have not seen any white eggs. In my tank, virtually no change of egg color happens until about 18-20 hours after spawn. Usually at that time I have about 5 opaque "orange sherbet" colored eggs (with the rest of them dark orange and translucent). Then over the next 20+ hours, more eggs turn opaque. Typically, 20-35% of the eggs will have turned opaque over the course of 48-50 hours.

Is this the typical pattern for unfertilized eggs? I was thinking that I had an issue with some of the eggs/embryo dying? That's why I thought the Meth Blue would maybe help to keep the embryo more "oxygenated" thru the egg casing.

Here is a picture from a spawn from several weeks ago where you can see the different color of some of the eggs (no worries - the heater was unplugged before spawning!) :
72846

Regarding my filter, I have a HOB filter which I unplug as soon as the spawn begins. I turn it back on 2 hours after spawn.

I'm open to any suggestions. Thank you for sharing your experiences! I don't know what I would do without the knowledge shared on his forum.

[pennex1]

don't want to hijack but the question is relevant, what is the difference between TDS and Water conductivity? I have a Hanna that measures TDS and my water out of the tap is usually around 59-61 while my Pinpoint conductivity meter measures between 118-128. Which one is more important? What number are we suppose to shoot for in either? I have similar problem with Sasha but i am not a dedicated breed, just a side hobby but would like to see my pair do better.

[nc0gnet0]

I'm open to any suggestions. Thank you for sharing your experiences! I don't know what I would do without the knowledge shared on his forum.

Get a TDS meter. NO other suggetions neccesary. The rate at which the eggs calcify is directly related to the hardness of your water. Without this piece of information, nobody will be able to tell you conclusively what your problem is. Or just leave well enough alone and be happy with the hatch rate you are getting and let the pair work things out on thier own. You can opt to get a cheap pen style TDS meter on ebay for $30.00. They work just fine, but won't last the ten years like Liz's hanna.

Other than that, you could always try a little voodoo dance ;)

[Sasha]

Get a TDS meter. NO other suggetions neccesary. The rate at which the eggs calcify is directly related to the hardness of your water. ;)

Got the message. Thank you. Did you take a look at the picture, and if so, do you believe that the opaque "orange sherbet" colored eggs are indeed "calcified"?

And hmmmm.... I do like to dance :-)

[LizStreithorst]

It sounds to me like your TDS is too high. Sometimes the mineral content can vary depending on the time of year, amount of rain, and other things. Until the meter arrives try mixing less tap with your RO. I would have thought that with you kH as low as it is you'd be OK. But it depends more on which mineral salts are in the water than on the overall amount.

[Sasha]

Excellent advice. Will do. Thanks, Liz! Really appreciate your comments.

[Sasha]

Hey one other thought - if I use 100% RO water, is it necessary to "add back" any trace minerals to keep the pair healthy? (Products: Discus Trace? Replenish?) And if so, I wonder how much I should add? It may be months before this pair become reliable parents, so I don't want to deprive them of what they need to remain healthy and happy. I'm also concerned about a PH crash if I let the KH get too low.

So many variables! Guess that's part of why this hobby is so fun - it's quite a challenge!

[nc0gnet0]

don't want to hijack but the question is relevant, what is the difference between TDS and Water conductivity? I have a Hanna that measures TDS and my water out of the tap is usually around 59-61 while my Pinpoint conductivity meter measures between 118-128. Which one is more important? What number are we suppose to shoot for in either? I have similar problem with Sasha but i am not a dedicated breed, just a side hobby but would like to see my pair do better.


To convert the electric conductivity of a water sample (mS/cm) into the approximate concentration of total dissolved solids (ppm), the mS/cm is multiplied by a conversion factor. The conversion factor depends on the chemical composition of the TDS and can very between 0.54 – 0.96. A value of 0.67 is commonly used as an approximation if the actual factor is not known [(TDS)ppm = Conductivity µS/cm x 0.67].

Taken from: http://www.stevenswater.com/water_quality_sensors/conductivity_info.html

Essentially both meters are measuring the same thing (conductivity), the TDS meters are just doing the math for you.


Rick

[nc0gnet0]

Hey one other thought - if I use 100% RO water, is it necessary to "add back" any trace minerals to keep the pair healthy? (Products: Discus Trace? Replenish?) And if so, I wonder how much I should add? It may be months before this pair become reliable parents, so I don't want to deprive them of what they need to remain healthy and happy. I'm also concerned about a PH crash if I let the KH get too low.

So many variables! Guess that's part of why this hobby is so fun - it's quite a challenge!

Yes, I do. How much should you add back? I shoot for a TDS value of 35ppm in my breeding tanks and slowly bring it up to around 150 PPM after hatch over a period of a week. which brings us bact to.............. ;)

[nc0gnet0]

Not to mention that anyone that has an RO unit should have a TDS/conductivity meter. Otherwise how can you tell when your membranes are failing?

[texasdiscusman]

Pennex you have really good breeding water straight out of the tap.A little to soft for growing out fish.And I agree with Rick on having meters if you have a RO system

[LizStreithorst]

I use 100% RO for my breeding pairs. I add nothing to it. People say that you can't do it like that but it works for me. You'll have to decide for yourself.

[April]

Clean water...you shouldn't get alot of fungus.


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I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?im502i

[Sasha]

Clean water...you shouldn't get alot of fungus.

Thank you for your reply, April, but I do not get fungus at all (at least not any fuzzy white stuff growing on the eggs). Fungus is not my issue. Just wanted to clarify to be sure this thread does not get off track.

[Sasha]

Update to everyone - as they have done before rather consistently, the pair ate the eggs right at about the 47-48 hour mark. About 80% of the eggs looked excellent, with dark eye spots and a nice deep color. Then boom - eggs gone.

I have caged the eggs before (that's how I have gotten to wiggler stage previously), but even then as soon as a wiggler wiggles free, they become lunch or otherwise "disappear".

One time, however, one single wiggler made it almost to the free swimming stage. The pair did not eat him, spawned again, and every time that he would breakfree and try to swim, they would catch him in their mouths and spit him back with the eggs on the spawn site. It was an amazing thing, as I never thought they would even bother with a single little one. Eventually he met his demise... I assume he was eaten.

Anyway, I guess my pair needs more experience, and I need continue to be patient... AND buy a TDS meter :-)

[LizStreithorst]

I understand the problem. I'm having the same thing right now. I had a spawn go free swimming a few weeks ago, but the fry were weak and did not attach. (I was changing less water because I didn't want to spook the pair). I decided to add some tap to my water. I kept the uS under 45. The next spawn all the eggs turned white (no fungus). I decided to go back to my old tried and true method of 100% RO. For this spawn, the uS was at 20. After 36 hours the eggs are all white again. I will continue to change water with 100% RO and see if I have better results next time. Sometimes the dang fish 'bout make your head explode. When it's easy it is so very easy. When it's hard, it's terribly hard. All we can do is try different things until we stumble upon what works.

[Chicago Discus]

I understand the problem. I'm having the same thing right now. I had a spawn go free swimming a few weeks ago, but the fry were weak and did not attach. (I was changing less water because I didn't want to spook the pair). I decided to add some tap to my water. I kept the uS under 45. The next spawn all the eggs turned white (no fungus). I decided to go back to my old tried and true method of 100% RO. For this spawn, the uS was at 20. After 36 hours the eggs are all white again. I will continue to change water with 100% RO and see if I have better results next time. Sometimes the dang fish 'bout make your head explode. When it's easy it is so very easy. When it's hard, it's terribly hard. All we can do is try different things until we stumble upon what works.


Liz thats so true when something works for one pair it won't work for the next yea it makes me crazy too LOL LOL........Josie

[texasdiscusman]

I kept the uS under 45. The next spawn all the eggs turned white (no fungus). I decided to go back to my old tried and true method of 100% RO. For this spawn, the uS was at 20. After 36 hours the eggs are all white again. I will continue to change water with 100% RO and see if I have better results next time.


Kids I would not try this at home.This is for professionals only.LOL

[LizStreithorst]

It goes contrary to conventional wisdom, for sure. And Randy, I ain't no professional. I'm a hobby breeder. I try different things and go with what works best for me.

[Sasha]

Update: the pair spawned again yesterday. I pulled the breeding cone (actually it's a brick) out of the water 1 hour after they completed the spawning process and applied 5-6 drops of Meth Blue directly to the eggs. After about 8 seconds of letting the Meth Blue "soak in", I then immediately replaced the spawn back into the tank, letting the meth blue dissipate into the tank water. About 40 minutes after applying the meth blue, I plugged the (HOB) filter back in. About 4 hours later, I did a 25% water change.

This is the first time ever that (at 20 hours after spawn) I do not yet have even a single "opaque" egg. They all look dark and translucent. I have not yet acquired that TDS meter, but I did use 100% RO water on the 60% water change I did the day before the spawn. I'll update the forum as this spawn develops so that perhaps others can learn from my experience.

[DonMD]

Sounds good, keep us posted!

[bonginator]

Interesting thread. This may be a silly question but when you are using lots of RO or Fatimids water to reduce the hardness, when you put The parents back into another non RO or non distiller water tank, do you put them through a slow acclimation process?

Thanks.

Sandy

[LizStreithorst]

I start changing the water with tap as soon as the fry attach. By the time the parents are ready to back in the community tank they have been in the same water for a while.

[Sasha]

Update #2: While it took longer than usual, the opaque "orange sherbet" colored eggs did start to appear after about 25 hours. The relative proportion of the opaque eggs was perhaps slightly lower than I had been consistently experiencing. At the 48 hour mark after spawn, I had about 15 opaque eggs in the bunch. Not too bad. As typical of this pair of discus, they began picking a bit at the eggs (dark ones and opaque ones) with their mouths after 48 hours of diligent egg keeping. By the 50 hour mark, about 25%-30% of the eggs were gone, many of which looked to me to be highly viable eggs. I struggled internally about what to do, and decided that I would cage the eggs to see about hatch rate.

Across the 52-55 hour mark, I had an incredibly high portion of the eggs hatch. Probably 90-95% of them hatched. EVEN A FEW OF THE OPAQUE EGGS produced a wiggler, much to my amazement.

Now here's the bad news, the wigglers all died. They were still caged so the parents did not eat them. I sat there as I slowly saw the wigglers one by one stop wiggling. Eventually the dead wiggler would fall away from the spawning site and the parents would then eat it. It was very sad.

I tested my water at that point: PH of 7.4, 0 nitrites, maybe an ever-so slight touch of ammonia (don't know if the few drops of the meth blue had an impact on the biological system?), and nitrates between 5 and 10 ppm. I had not yet done my water change for the day due to my schedule.

After I did my water change (after the wigglers were all gone), I noticed that the water I removed from the tank had a very slight blue tint to it. I didn't notice it in the tank itself because I have a light blue background and bottom on the tank. So perhaps there were traces of Meth Blue left in the water, and that led to the demise of the wigglers??? I have no idea.

[nc0gnet0]

The meth blue will not hurt your wigglers, you got something else going on here. My advise it to remove the parents, scrub down and disinfect the tank and start fresh.

[Sasha]

Interesting thread. This may be a silly question but when you are using lots of RO or Fatimids water to reduce the hardness, when you put The parents back into another non RO or non distiller water tank, do you put them through a slow acclimation process?

Great question. I would imagine so. I've never done it. This is my first "mated pair" and the first time I've separated them from the other tank. I think what I will do is put the parents in 5 gallon bucket (or maybe a 17 gallon plastic bin that I have) - aerated and heated - while I quickly scrub and bleach the tank using a 1:9 part ratio of bleach to water. Then I'll rinse and rinse until I smell no bleach. Then refill tank and dose with Prime. Then put parents back in breeder tank. That way the parents don't get too stressed from being placed back into the "harder water" tank with my other discus. I don't think they need to go through the "pecking order" battles that might take place in my main tank.