Mili´s 1st discus tank.

[Mili]

I got my 1st discus about an year ago and i have faced many problems.
1 week ago my friend told me about these forums and i have spent allmost whole eastern sitting on my comp and learning stuff all over again. I must say that finnish ppl have wery different ways keeping discus than ppl in this forum.

My tank is 99G heavily planted and has way too much fish in it.

73024

I lost 2 of my discus for not eating and hiding in the bushes before i realised something is wery wrong in my tank.
At the monet i have 2 discus not eating.

In here ppl dont use RO water for non marine tanks. Well.. cause i like this hobby and im totally hooked i decided to get Ro equipment and TDS meter, no matter what other ppl think.

Tanks fish:
7 discus
1 L-330 Watermelon pleco i suppose.
12 Corydoras trilineatus
10 Corydoras Rabauti
6 corydoras panda
4 Peckoltia compta, L134
10 congo tetra
12ish Pangio kuhlii
4 Bunocephalus coracoideus
1 Bristlenose Pleco
5 Crossocheilus siamensis
1 Apistogramma viejita
2 Geophagus sp. Tapajos 'Red head'

My tanks parameters:
99G/375L
pH 6,8
kH 4
gH 7
No3 5-10
No2 0
ammonium 0
28C/82,4F
TDS 340

Filtration: EHEIM professionel 3 1200 XL 2080 and EHEIM PowerLine 2048
I have DIY co2 system to help lower pH.

Tap water parameters:
pH 8,5-9,5
No3 0-30 depends if it has been raining
kH 0-1
gH 8
No3 0
ammonium 0
TDS 120

I 1st did 30% WC twice a week but after my water supplier changed and pH went nuts i did only 25% once in 2 weeks.
Now i have RO system and i do 10% WC each day. I did not age my water earlier, but now i do. I have still issues with pH and untill i get it solved i cant change more so pH dont pop up.

I suspected my discus has some parasites so i treated them with camacell and Nematol. They didnt help.
I found Jungle parasite clear from small local shop and thought giving it a try. Sadly some EU law decided that u cant sell it in here so its gonna be 1st and last time i use it.
I added 1st dosage on thrusday and today 5 of my 7 discus are dropping tapeworms.
I did 25% WC today and added second dosage. Gonna add 3rd in 48 hours.
Other fishs seem clear. Im thinking to start get rid of plants after medication, cause i dont want to stress my discus too much.

Im gonna buy 800L/211,34G tank soon and all my plans have been redone cause all new info i found here.
Im not gonna do BB since i feel its ugly and my corys are prob gonna be extra mad for me. I think im gonna add sand just to cover the bottom.
Im also gonna get rid allmost all of my plants and fill the tank with magrove.
Im gonna sell:
12ish Pangio kuhlii
4 Bunocephalus coracoideus
1 Bristlenose Pleco
5 Crossocheilus siamensis
Does it after this still have too many fish in it?

Im gonna keep u posted of situation when i see what direction its going.
Any feedback, tips or thought are welcome. All i want is to see my discus healthy and happy.

Mili

[douce]

one of things you'll find this forum is very adamant on, is quarantining new fish. were all these fish added at the same time, or over any period of time? either way, without quarantining the fish, i imagine that could very likely be the cause of your disease issues. i think losing the plants and some of the livestock is a step in the right direction - less is more, at least until you've done some more studying and have a very solid grasp on the proven methods of keeping discus. getting rid of the plants and livestock will certainly help you keep water quality high and consistent, especially if you can't perform more frequent water changes - probably the two most important elements of keeping discus.

[Mili]

I have never guarantened any of my fish :( And my fishes are added overtime, since i actually needed to order them. Didnt have even chance to see them. They gave me list of colors and sizes and asked what color and how many =(
I actually send some e-mail to USA breeders, but they cant send me discus. Its not possible to ship them in this stupid country.

I have 100L/26G spare tank and when all problems are solved and its time to get new fishes i will quarantene them.
What do you guys think about medicating ur fish against parasites in guarantene? I have been told u should never ever treat ur fish unless its really nessessary. Im feeling that im too scared to add anything in my tank untill its been medicated againts possible parasites.

[douce]

well, the idea behind a quarantine tank, is to observe the fish for possible problems or illnesses, before adding them to your normal tank, and risking infecting other fish. if your quarantined fish show symptoms of disease, you can medicate/treat them directly in the quarantine tank (or hospital tank), without having to expose the rest of your stock to the medications. i don't have a very vast knowledge regarding sick discus, as i've never run into the problem thankfully, but i think you should definitely spend some time reading in the disease section of the forum, and find out the best course of action. at this point, i imagine with such a large stocking, it would only make sense to treat your main tank, and simply quarantine any future stock you get - it would be pointless to only treat some of your fish by adding them to the spare tank, since all of your livestock have been exposed to the ill fish.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Mili and welcome to the SD forums! =)

It's wonderful that you are working to correct the problems in the tank, you are doing the right thing. We'll help you here on the forums as much as we can.

I'm happy to hear that you have a spare tank, because I'm going to advise you to make a few changes immediately, before you buy the larger tank, etc.

The first thing you need to know is that higher pH is ok for discus. These are domestic discus, so they can handle it.

The second thing to know is that since you are seeing tapeworms with the Jungle Parasite treatment, you are using the correct treatment and the tapeworms are probably the reason that the discus are hiding and dying.

Ok, so here is what I would do right away, while you're treating the discus:

1) Remove some of the sand and put it into the 26 gallon tank, fill with tap water and start running a filter and heater to get the temp to 82. No need to age the water at this point, but if you have chlorine in the water, be sure to add a dechlorinator.

2) Now fill a bucket with 1 part bleach and 19 parts water. I use a 3 gallon bucket and use 1/2 cup of bleach, then fill almost to the top of the bucket with water.

3) Now remove all the plants on the right side of the tank, place them into the bleach bucket and soak them for 1 minute. This will kill anything that's on them. After one minute, rinse them very well, dump out the water from the bucket, refill it with water and dechlorinator and then soak the plants in that for 20 minutes. Use twice the amount of dechlorinator in that water so that the plants are completely free of bleach.

4) Next, put those plants into the 26g tank.

5) Remove the following fish from the big tank and put them into the small tank:
4 Peckoltia compta, L134
10 congo tetra
12ish Pangio kuhlii
4 Bunocephalus coracoideus
5 Crossocheilus siamensi
2 Geophagus sp. Tapajos 'Red head'
These are rather aggressive fish who will disturb your discus while they are trying to eat and the ones who swim fast all around the tank upset discus so that the discus are always stressed and scared.

Now that the extra plants and fish are out of the big tank you can remove the DIY co2 system. It's not really needed anymore.

Ready for the rest?

For the big tank don't worry too much about the pH. Increase the water changes to 60% per day for the next month. Don't use RO water for now, just use tap water and don't worry about the pH and TDS. They aren't making your discus sick.

Also slowly increase the temperature of the water in the big tank to 86 degrees when the tapeworm treatment is completed. That will increase the appetites of the discus.

You'll need to do daily water changes on the 26g tank too since the tank will be overstocked with fish and the filters will also need time in order to build up enough beneficial bacteria to handle the fish load. No need to put the DIY co2 system on this tank either. Those plants should do just fine with plenty of light.

Leave the plants on the left side of the big tank and the ones in the middle right where they are. Your discus need to feel safe and those plants will help them to relax and give them a place to hide if they get scared. Just be sure to vacuum the sand around them very well at each water change.

[Mili]

5) Remove the following fish from the big tank and put them into the small tank:
4 Peckoltia compta, L134
10 congo tetra
12ish Pangio kuhlii
4 Bunocephalus coracoideus
5 Crossocheilus siamensi
2 Geophagus sp. Tapajos 'Red head'
These are rather aggressive fish who will disturb your discus while they are trying to eat and the ones who swim fast all around the tank upset discus so that the discus are always stressed and scared.

Is the end game of this idea that i should sell all those fish? Or add them to bigger tank when it arrives?
I must admit that congo tetras, Crossocheilus siamensi and Geophagus sp. Tapajos 'Red head' are active fish and they may cause stress to my discuss. Tho they have never showed any aggression towards discus and rather swimm away from them when they meet.
But for the rest of those fish u listed i need to ask why? Only Peckoltia compta may come to eat, and they eat different food than discus. And they are rather shy than agressive. I suppose Pangio kuhlii and Bunocephalus coracoideus may stress discus at nights?
I will most surely look onto this but i will not do it before medicine is fully done its job, so parasites wont come more tolerate to this medicine.

[TNT77]

I have to disagree with the L134 having to be pulled. I have kept those plecs in with discus for over 10 years and never ever had an issue they are a rather small pleco and any aggression is only towards each other. Now the watermelon pleco on the other hand can get quite large and large plecos tend to get lazy. You might have food aggression issues when it gets large but it depends on the plec. As for the red head tapajos only issue I have ever had with them is they are rather fast eaters compared to discus but Ive never had aggression issues with the discus they tend to ignore them completely.

[strawberryblonde]

Totally agree with you TNT. I was recommending pulling those fish for now in order to reduce the sheer numbers of fish in the tank and also because they are either aggressive, very "busy" fish, or food hogs who eat fast and don't leave time for discus to graze.

I didn't spell the whole thing out in longhand cuz I've been accused (can you imagine??? lol) of being a bit longwinded. =)

I must have missed the watermelon pleco in that list, thanks for noticing it.

[Mili]

My L-330 is already 11 inches and hes really a king of this tank. So moving him to 100L is out of question ;) He is showing bit food agression i must admit. Also he has his own spot under magrove. I actually had to make roof for his spot cause some of my discus like to hang near it and it really irritates my L-330. 1 of the reasons for getting bigger tank is cause of this fish. Its my husbans favorite and i cant sell it.

[Mili]

Updating:
Jungle parasite clear medication ended and 6/7 discus are more lively.
I removed 10 congo tetra, 5 Crossocheilus siamensi and 1 Bunocephalus coracoideus (could not spot more) from the tank.
I also removed the plants that strawberryblonde suggested.
Discus seem to be more active and behaving quite different. Some time they actually swarm? Scool? Dunno the right word :(
They eat much faster and i can now see that congos were irritating them.

I have changed about 30% water every day. 40% RO 60% tap. And yes i was crazy enough to move my shoe collection to basement so i have room to age water properly. I have also vacuumed sand off the tank while doing WC. It actually bubbled!!! Some ammonia i quess. Im trying to remove it slowly in every WC so i dont mess up the water too much. Even my husband noticed that water is much clearer!

Parameters:
pH 7,4
TDS 352
kH 4
gH 7
No3 5
No2 0,025 because of the sand?

Next problem is that i see white feces. I read that it should be treated with Metronidazole. But you need prescription for it. Is there any medicine that does not contain it but would work? I have corys in tank so im afraid to raise temp too much.

[CrazyAngels]

Great Job Mili, looks like things are beginning to work out for you. Wish you the very best.

[Mili]

I have been doing 30% WC every day. Been testing water allmost every day. TDS has come nicely down from over 300 to 170ish. NO2 has been 0-0,025. Cant imagine any other reason than the stuff that comes from the sand when i vacuum it.
So i was testing it today. I did 30% WC earlier today and found very nasty spot in sand. Smell was horrible and it bubbled. =(
NO2 was 0,1 like 3 hours after WC!!! I did 70% WC. Sadly i didnt have aged water that much, but i figured NO2 is worse than fresh water. I added Aqua-safe for whole tanks water. After WC it was 0,05.
I probably need to wake up at night and test it if i need to do it again.
Going to buy some bacteria stuff tomorrow after work. Im so afraid that my fishes are dead when i get home =(

Question is: Should i just leave the sand be? Is it worse to have nasties in there or the possibility this happens again?

[Skip]

fresh clean water is better then no water change..

that smell you had from sand was anaerobic bacteria pocket.. it can cause ammonia to shoot up and hurt fish.. if you must have sand.. keep no more then 1/2".. it helps to prevent the pockets.. or better yet.. remove sand

you need up those water changes and keep them going..

tds dropping is due to removing the wastes in the water.. as water evaporates and water changes are not regular.. they can increase.. WC pulls them out..

[Mili]

that smell you had from sand was anaerobic bacteria pocket.. it can cause ammonia to shoot up and hurt fish.. if you must have sand.. keep no more then 1/2".. it helps to prevent the pockets.. or better yet.. remove sand

I will remove most of sand today. My plan was to remove it slowly. I had 10cm/4" so its really slow. I will leave 1/2" as u suggested, and that was my plan aswell. I will do 80% WC when i remove sand and second big WC this evening.

All fish was alive when i got home!! =) No2 0,05 so no change there.

[Mili]

I lost my weakest discus. =( I think it was stunned. Didnt really respond medications and didnt eat/grow well.
Now i have 5 discus who seems healthy.

I noticed strange behavior about a week ago: 2dn on command discus was following the leader and i think the correct word is flaring tho it. I thought its gonna take the 1st place since its a bit bigger than the leader. I was worried cause leader wont attack this annoying follower.
Well its been week now and now they follow each other. When they meet they swim up and flare each other. it looks really imperssive. I havent seen any fighting between them not even when eating. Wich is really strange.

Well thats not all. My lowest discus has started to challence the leader. When this happens the 2nd defends the leader!
And my pigeon blood who i cant determine where he/she stands is commanding any1 who comes near or looks it the wrong way. And no1 is fighting him/her.
I just love waching how they are 200% more active and even my non aquaristic friends noticed better colors =)

I also decided to sell my big pleco. Hes getting even more aggressice and i think some of my discus feel stressed cause of it.

[Mili]

Looks like i have a pair! The Boss and 2nd are cleaning spot and chacing other fish away from their territory. =)
All thanks to ppl who have helped me making their conditions and life better =)

Thank you for sharing good info of keeping discus.

Mili

[Mili]

They spawned and it hatched and then my husbadns stupid, annoying, ugly, mean pleco noticed it. Beated the male discus and ate fry.
Now pair is in hospital tank. Both sides of male are scrathed, and hes very very dark. Ate some food when offered.

Im actually soon in that point when i will kill this pleco if no1 is gonna buy it soonish.

Oh and i must ask. This small guy in my avatar is lowest ranked in my tank. Why did it become very very aggressive towards the alfa male when alfa and omega started breed? It cant be jealious or can it?

[Mili]

Uppdating. I sold pleco. And bought 200Gal new tank!!!!
Its housing 29 corys, bristlenose pleco and 5 discus. I was planning to add few Red Lizard Catfish (any1 have kept these with discus?) and some discus.
http://i1052.photobucket.com/albums/s456/Miliiii/IMAG0640.jpg

Im unsure how many discus i should add so the WC´s would not be huge pain.
At the moment i can make 31gal RO water/day. I mostly do 50/50 with RO and aged tap water so the ammount of water that i can change is about 60gal/day. I can get only juwes around here, so i need to feed them alot.