fishless cycle/vacation timing (a little long)

[thomcad]

Hey all,

First post, but I have been lurking for a few weeks learning a lot in preparation for my first discus tank. (we have some smaller tanks around the house with tetra, plecos, etc, and a nice koi pond)

I am about 3 weeks into a fishless cycle of a 120 gallon unplanted tank. I have a fluval fx5 packed with biomax on all 3 levels, gravel substrate and some artificial plants. Ph is 7.8, gh is 3 drops on the API, temp is 85deg, and I am holding ammonia at around 4ppm with the Ace Hardware stuff, and using Prime to dechlorinate my tap water. I am doing weekly 25% water changes. My water company doesn't use chloramine yet. One odd thing, the ph in the tank is higher than my ph from my tap which is 7.2 after I let it sit overnight.

Anyway, no nitrites or nitrates yet. I used the bottled Cycle stuff from Petco, and last week even put a filter from one of our small tanks in to kind of boost things, but no luck yet. I even threw some Peat Moss balls in there. I wouldn't care, because I'm nothing if not patient, but it is taking much longer than I thought and I am worried that my cycle will kick in right in the middle of a 2 week vacation that I have planned in 3 weeks, and it will crash without me adding ammonia.

So finally I get to my question... If my tank isn't ready for fish when I have to leave, should I put some danio's or something in there so the cycle doesn't crash? I have somebody who could feed the fish, and even do a water change for me, but I have no one to test my water and add ammonia.

Any ideas would be appreciated!

thomcad

[Eddie]

I'd avoid using fish to cycle it while your gone. A group of danios isn't gonna do much and they could be carrying unwanted bugs which would negate the reason for a fishless cycle. If you have somebody who was willing to feed the fish, maybe they'd be willing to just add ammonia daily.

[jimg]

couple things, no reason to do 25% wc while waiting for cycle and I try to go not much higher than 1ppm with ammonia and cycle is useless.
since you won't be around I would leave the ppm at 4 before you go and you can add something that will decay slow like a piece of meat or fish and leave the temp at room temp (low 70's).
best is if someone could add a 1/2 tsp +- ammonia every few days for you after the first week.

[JenTN]

couple things, no reason to do 25% wc while waiting for cycle and I try to go not much higher than 1ppm with ammonia and cycle is useless.
since you won't be around I would leave the ppm at 4 before you go and you can add something that will decay slow like a piece of meat or fish and leave the temp at room temp (low 70's).
best is if someone could add a 1/2 tsp +- ammonia every few days for you after the first week.

+1 or put an auto feeder in there and have it despense some food regularly

[thomcad]

Thanks for the replies and ideas! I like the combination of the lower water temps and auto feeder, and maybe I'll beg the wife to add a little ammonia during the second week. Appreciate the quick replies.

Thanks,

thomcad


P.S. The website where I first read about fishless cycling recommended the water changes and Petco bacteria as a way to move things along a bit. The bottled bacteria didn't seem to help any, so maybe the water change advice was a bit dubious as well, but it was good practice and helped me work out the bugs in my water change technique, so I don't think it was useless in my case.

[jimg]

I like to put a small amount of substrate on the bottom and remove after a couple months. no wipe downs either. the bacterial fauna is in the water and any surface of the tank and whatever is in the tank as well as the filter, not just the filters so think of the whole thing as a system.

[thomcad]

I like to put a small amount of substrate on the bottom and remove after a couple months. no wipe downs either. the bacterial fauna is in the water and any surface of the tank and whatever is in the tank as well as the filter, not just the filters so think of the whole thing as a system.

Thanks. Do you mean that you start with a little gravel and then end up with a bare-bottom tank? I'm really hung up on some gravel for appearances, even if it means some more work. If the bacteria are in the water column, do you think the water changes might actually be counterproductive, instead of just unnecessary?

[jimg]

Thanks. Do you mean that you start with a little gravel and then end up with a bare-bottom tank? I'm really hung up on some gravel for appearances, even if it means some more work. If the bacteria are in the water column, do you think the water changes might actually be counterproductive, instead of just unnecessary? a little gravel is fine as long as it's kept clean. water changes are counter productive at this point.

[Orange Crush]

I disagree with using gravel to establish a BB colony and then removing it later. First of all the amount of BB in the water itself is negligable but if you do not have fish in the tank you should not do a water change because the water is where the ammonia and nitrites are and you need that to grow a BB colony. You do not want to reduce the levels of amm and nitrItes by doing water changes because it will take longer for the tank to cycle. The BB colony grows on any surface (filter media, substrate, etc.) and the water with ammonia and nitrItes moving over these surfaces is what feeds the BB and allows it to grow. I would work on growing a BB colony on things that are going to stay in the tank (i.e. filter media) not things that will be taken out later (gravel) because the removal will cause a mini-cycle.

[thomcad]

Food for thought... thanks for the reply OC.

[jimg]

I have done many many fishless cycles many ways and that is what has proven to me to work the best. the more surface area there is the more chance at bb establishing. when things are established removing the thin layer of gravel will not cause a "mini cycle" you have more chance of that by cleaning your filters.

[Orange Crush]

I have done many many fishless cycles many ways and that is what has proven to me to work the best. the more surface area there is the more chance at bb establishing. when things are established removing the thin layer of gravel will not cause a "mini cycle" you have more chance of that by cleaning your filters.
I agree that more surface area to help establish a BB colony is a good thing I just think it should be done using things that will stay in the tank since that is where it needs to be anyways. It seems pointless to grow BB on something then take it out of the tank. Either your filter media has enough surface area for the amount of BB needed when you have fish in there or it needs to be increased while doing the fishless cycle to provide enough sa.
Whenever I have removed substrate after cycling a tank I have gotten a mini-cycle. That is just my experience which is all I can speak to, there are different ways of doing things. Pick the one that makes the most sense for you.

[jimg]

you can think of it this way, you have a small new filter (just because you have nitrate readings on a new system does not mean it fully cycled).you get discus which are large fish and you put them in the tank unless a filter, tank and water are established there is all of a sudden a big hit on the small amount of bio in the filter. having extra colonies in the substrate until the tanks gets established is a big comfort zone for me. plus anytime i have ever used bottled bio, there has been major improvements in the bio with substrate compared to without. then when your system is established you can remove the small amount of substrate if you want.
If you removed your gravel and had a bio set back then you seen first hand how much the gravel helps with bio.
same as those who scrub the tanks spotless every couple days, it's slightly disturbing the system
It is a system.

[Orange Crush]

I never start with a small filter, I believe in having more filtration than needed (not a whole lot more because at some point it is just a waste of $ and causes too strong of water flow). This provides the extra surface area for BB that substrate would've provided.
I removed the substrate a few weeks after the fish were in the tank so it was a fully cycled tank and I realize that by removing the substrate I had removed some of the BB, which is what caused the mini-cycle, but if I had established that same amount of BB on stuff that was going to stay in the tank then I would not have had that problem at all. Also, the additional filter media provides the extra space for faster cycling.
To each their own. :D

[jimg]

takes a lot more than a few weeks for a system to be established.

[Orange Crush]

takes a lot more than a few weeks for a system to be established.
I removed the gravel a few weeks after I had added the fish which was after I had already completed the fishless cycle. It was about 3 months after starting to cycle the tank.

Put it this way, if there is only enough "food" for 1,000,000 BB (random # to illustrate my point) then I want those BB on what is going to stay in the tank. If you have substrate then some of those 1,000,000 BB will establish in the substrate instead of the filter. Providing additional areas does not make it cycle faster as long as you provide enough surface to support the amount of BB colony needed for the amount of waste produced (or ammonia provided).

Either way if the OP is not feeding the BB while away it really does not matter what surface or amount of surface for BB there is.

[thomcad]

takes a lot more than a few weeks for a system to be established.


I'm finding this out first hand. I really underestimated how long it was going to take, which is how I got into this situation.

[thomcad]

Either way if the OP is not feeding the BB while away it really does not matter what surface or amount of surface for BB there is.

True, but I think I have gotten some good advice here on how to feed them while I'm gone so I'm not starting over from scratch when I get back. Thanks guys.

[Orange Crush]

True, but I think I have gotten some good advice here on how to feed them while I'm gone so I'm not starting over from scratch when I get back. Thanks guys.
Good luck. I hope it all works out for you! :)