Tefe Fry Are Off

[Second Hand Pat]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

My Tefe fry who are nine weeks old seem "off". They are not holding themselves erect and their feeding response is not as vigorous as it should be. They seem dull to me.

I moved them from the 40 breeder to a 75 last weekend thinking they needed time to settle but definitely pass this point.


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Fins are not erect and feeding is not as vigorous.


3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

I dewormed them a week and a half ago using Vermisol using 4 grams in a 40 breeder. Recommended dosage is 2.5 grams per 20 gallon as targeted a 35 gallon dose. I did not notice any "wayward" poops. But fry poop is pretty small lol.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

The fry were moved to a 75 gallon last weekend, they are nine weeks old and better then an inch and a half. There are about 40 fry. The filter was moved with the fish. Also there are three sterbai cories with them

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

Currently do two 50% WCs per day. Tank has a very thin sand bottom. WCs consist of 2/3 tap and 1/3 RO. I definitely age, aerate and heat the water 24 hours prior to use.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp _____84.2

- ph _____ 7.4

- ammonia reading ____0

- nitrite reading ____0

- nitrate reading ____Best guess somewhere around 5 but less then 10.

- well water ____Yes

- municipal water ____No

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

No, moved to 75 with their filter. Also felt I was overfeeding the tank as the tank come evening was nasty. This is my first fry experience and try desperately to "get it right" especially since these are F1 wilds. Growth wise the fry seem to be on track based on conversations with other members. F1 wild greens are known to grow slower then their domestic counterparts.

Pictures from 4-12-2012 which seems to raise concerns with another member. Note the half-mast fins.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/p1010124.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/p1010125.jpg

[Brokenrack]

what is the concentration of Levimisol in vermisol? 4grams seems awful high. I think I use 5 Grains in a 40 breeder of levamisol for 2ppm.

[Second Hand Pat]

what is the concentration of Levimisol in vermisol? 4grams seems awful high. I think I use 5 Grains in a 40 breeder of levamisol for 2ppm.

I can't tell, the label is not in English. I followed the dosing instruction here. I will see if I can find it online with English instruction. Do you feel it is a possible problem?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?89770-VERMISOL-recommend-dosing-instruction-links

[Tommo]

Hi (again) Pat

Here is a link to a medication that I have found very useful for treating very young Discus exhibiting the same symptoms. It's a broad spectrum medication for fugal and protozoan infections. It is also bio-degradable. I don't however know if Waterlife Treatments are available in the US?

Here's the link: oops can't do this as I haven't 10 posts!

Lets see - all the w's dot waterlife dot co dot uk/waterlife/protozin dot htm

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul, that is in the UK

http://www.waterlife.co.uk/waterlife/protozin.htm

I am in the US so something a little closer to home might be better. I was considering using this

http://www.aquariumproductreviews.com/Parasite-Medications/Anti-Fluke-Life-Bearer-p-1275.html

[Brokenrack]

Looking at the links it seems it's only 7.5% so you would be fine little low actually. I use 100%.

[zimmjeff]

Pat your killing me posting in this section. Hope they come out of it alright.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat your killing me posting in this section. Hope they come out of it alright.

Believe me Jeff, I do not want to be here either.

Guess Eddie left the house before getting to this section.

[Second Hand Pat]

Looking at the links it seems it's only 7.5% so you would be fine little low actually. I use 100%.

Thanks for checking.

[Eddie]

Believe me Jeff, I do not want to be here either.

Guess Eddie left the house before getting to this section.

Hey there Pat, sorry to hear about the fry. Its tough to diagnose given the symptoms. Could be internal, external, parasite, bacteria. I don't like to treat fry, but I will if I have to. You said they are in a 75 gallon, with or without a separator? Can you get them into a barebottom tank with NOTHING except them? I'm a reluctant to treat them right now and mainly thinking about HEAVY water changes in a smaller tank, like 90% twice a day. Is there a way you can do that?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Eddie, yes I moved them last weekend from a 40 to the 75. There is no divider in the 75. I can desand the 40 and move them back. I was doing 90% in the 40 prior. They were off in the 40 also.

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie, yes I moved them last weekend from a 40 to the 75. There is no divider in the 75. I can desand the 40 and move them back. I was doing 90% in the 40 prior. They were off in the 40 also.

Was the 40 empty or it had sand, wood and catfish in with them?

[Second Hand Pat]

The 40 was the tank they came from with the wood, sand and cories. I will PP the tank prior to moving them back.

[Eddie]

The 40 was the tank they came from with the wood, sand and cories. I will PP the tank prior to moving them back.

I'm just looking to eliminate variables. I know lots of people are successful as raising fry in those conditions but if there is a problem, definitely get them in the cleanest environment. I'm gonna send you a PM. ;)

[Keith Perkins]

I'm the PP lover in the crowd. Picked that up from Paul over the pond I guess.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Keith, for now going with a clean tank and lots of clean water. Moving the little buggers back to the 40 for now and going BB. Tank is ready and waiting on the water to heat and age. Should be ready about 9pm

[roundfishross]

I'm with kieth I would pp the heck out of them. at this size they will tolerate it very well

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Leo, once they are transferred to the 40. Keith did mention that Bill P indicated F1s are a bit more sensitive to PP.

[shoveltrash]

Pat I'm so sorry to read this!!!!



for now going with a clean tank and lots of clean water. Moving the little buggers back to the 40 for now and going BB. I'm by no means expert enough to offer opinions, but this sounds like a good plan. best of luck to your little ones :)

[roundfishross]

Thanks Leo, once they are transferred to the 40. Keith did mention that Bill P indicated F1s are a bit more sensitive to PP.

yes , I have pp'd domestic fry half this size many times but never f1's. you could always try it out on a couple of the runty ones

[Second Hand Pat]

Damn Leo, hate to experiment on any of the guys.

[roundfishross]

wont know unless you try it;)

besides arent they already raising another batch?

[Keith Perkins]

William Palumbos experience with treating F1 wilds with PP I gave him was that he thought they got a twing of gill burn at 2 ppm. They were fine again in a few days and definitely also killed whatever was ailing them. I'd say 1 to 1.5 drops per gallon in a clean tank.

[Tommo]

Paul, that is in the UK

I am in the US so something a little closer to home might be better. I was considering using this

Yes Pat, Waterlife Treatments are manufactured in the UK but sold world wide. Protozin is a very safe product which I have used on very small fry with no problems at all. When my fish room was up and running I always used Protozin with new fish in a quarantine situation. This product, if you can get it, will bring your babies around very quickly.

Regarding the link you posted -I would not use that product unless you know of someone who has used it to treat similar problems with young Discus.

Good luck . . .

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat I'm so sorry to read this!!!!


I'm by no means expert enough to offer opinions, but this sounds like a good plan. best of luck to your little ones :)

Thanks Trish


wont know unless you try it;)

besides arent they already raising another batch?

True Ross, have them in a clean tank now so will try in the morning. Yes the parent's have another batch but have been having issues with attachment on the prior two spawns. Remember this is my first batch and was hoping it would not be experimental :(


William Palumbos experience with treating F1 wilds with PP I gave him was that he thought they got a twing of gill burn at 2 ppm. They were fine again in a few days and definitely also killed whatever was ailing them. I'd say 1 to 1.5 drops per gallon in a clean tank.

Thanks Keith, will try in the morning so I can keep an eye on things.


Yes Pat, Waterlife Treatments are manufactured in the UK but sold world wide. Protozin is a very safe product which I have used on very small fry with no problems at all. When my fish room was up and running I always used Protozin with new fish in a quarantine situation. This product, if you can get it, will bring your babies around very quickly.

Regarding the link you posted -I would not use that product unless you know of someone who has used it to treat similar problems with young Discus.

Good luck . . .

Thanks Paul, will be uploading a movie where shortly and maybe get some educated eyes on these fry. Unwilling to confirm to a treatment plan quite yet.

[Second Hand Pat]

OK, not sure if this will be helpful. Remember they were just moved into this tank 30 min prior to shooting this clip and they have never been in a BB before. A couple are dark and watch for one in the foreground, right side of the tank. Seems like it is trying to clean it's gills.

Paul, PM me your email address and I can see if I can attach it to an email unless that can be censored also.


http://youtu.be/1CzQ4NU-53s

[Keith Perkins]

I stand by my suggestion.

[Second Hand Pat]

I stand by my suggestion.

Think it can wait until morning?

[roundfishross]

I stand by my suggestion.

second it, looks like a bactierial issuse imho the pp should get it

[Second Hand Pat]

OK guys, it is in, 40 drops in about 37 gallons. Fish are swimming all over the place. Fins are erect. Not sure if they are in distress or not. Ideas?

[Second Hand Pat]

Leo, I think it is bacterial also.

[LKSDiscus]

Wow, hope that will help, sorry to hear that they are not doing well, don't want to see that I'm sure.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Linda, I sure don't.

[CrazyAngels]

Hang in there Pat, I just had one go down tonight and for no apparent reason, there were no signs at all of any issue. Keeping my eyes on the others from the same tank.

[Kingdom Come Discus]

I bet they look better in the morning. I have used pp on f1 Tefe fry a few times with no adverse reactions. They always perked up the next day. They most likely looked better because they lost their mucus membrane, but I never lost one during or right after the treatment.

[Tommo]

Hi Pat, not sure whether my email address will be accepted here because of lack of posts so its:

p dot thompson at ymail dot com

I would be interestd to view a video of the fry - let's see if it gets through to me.

I'm confident that the original problem with the fry was caused by a protozoan infection. Once the fry are weakened, they are obviously more susceptable to secondary infections. That's why I think a broad spectrum treatment (Protozin) is applicable to your situation. I used to have this type of problem twice a year: spring and autumn. I did read a paper a number of years ago which identified protozoan 'blooms' during these seasons which were transmitted through the local water supplier. These protozoans are not effected by the chlorine treatment of the water supply.

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Hang in there Pat, I just had one go down tonight and for no apparent reason, there were no signs at all of any issue. Keeping my eyes on the others from the same tank.

Sorry to hear that Jorge. Hope all is well with the others.


I bet they look better in the morning. I have used pp on f1 Tefe fry a few times with no adverse reactions. They always perked up the next day. They most likely looked better because they lost their mucus membrane, but I never lost one during or right after the treatment.

Hi Kraig, they look considerable better and a lot more active.


Hi Pat, not sure whether my email address will be accepted here because of lack of posts so its:

p dot thompson at ymail dot com

I would be interestd to view a video of the fry - let's see if it gets through to me.

I'm confident that the original problem with the fry was caused by a protozoan infection. Once the fry are weakened, they are obviously more susceptable to secondary infections. That's why I think a broad spectrum treatment (Protozin) is applicable to your situation. I used to have this type of problem twice a year: spring and autumn. I did read a paper a number of years ago which identified protozoan 'blooms' during these seasons which were transmitted through the local water supplier. These protozoans are not effected by the chlorine treatment of the water supply.

Paul

Paul, I did email you. I have not heard of protozoan "bloom" here in the states. Also I am on a well and the water is drawn from several hundred feet down. No sure how protozoan where live in that or how they would get there.

[Second Hand Pat]

As I mentioned to Kraig the fry look considerable better but no real interest in food :( and there is some flashing.

[jimg]

I wouldn't pp them I would try two things acriflavin for a few days or metro. i have seen the same the same symptoms with my ica reds and metro fixed it in a couple days. Now would be a good time to cull one and scope it. could possibly by after effects from wormer too.check to see if the gills are a nice red too.I also wouldn't keep moving them and would either have a thin amount of sand on the bottom or painted. the last thing they need now is stress.
hope it works out.
maybe think of cleaning the adults before any more spawns too.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Jim, this is uncharted territory for me. There is a piece of cardboard attached to the bottom of the tank but they still seem bothered. The idea is to give them a couple of days with clean water and if no or little improvement to begin a metro cycle with them.

As best I know the adults are clean as I do the deworming/debugging process with all my wilds.

[jimg]

I hated to see this post. I was so happy for you with the fry! the card board has to be tight against the glass. the bottom imo is not a big stress factor, they'll get used to it, I just try to eliminate everything. I would do as your planning with the water or a few days then metro if needed.
The best results I had cleaning pairs before spawns was actually Dales treatment.
Good luck with them. hope it works out.

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jim, I use Dale's method also. I hate to be here also. More newbie lessons here for sure.

[Disgirl]

Just reading all this Pat. So sorry, hang in there and hoping you can soon turn them around. They have the best of care from you I know!
Barb

[Second Hand Pat]

Just reading all this Pat. So sorry, hang in there and hoping you can soon turn them around. They have the best of care from you I know!
Barb

Thanks Barb, I believe there is a fair chance of turning them around.

[Second Hand Pat]

After feeding a small amount of flake this morning when back to do the WC and about half the flake is gone. :) After the WC feed some lightly ground up FDWBs and all but a handful seem to be eating.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPvgPYq0RYQ&feature=youtu.be

[YSS]

Good luck with the babies.

Did you deworm them because they were acting off or just as a precautionary measure? My fish were acting off after I treated my fish with levamisole in the past. Looking foward to good news soon.

[roundfishross]

Hi Pat, not sure whether my email address will be accepted here because of lack of posts so its:

p dot thompson at ymail dot com

I would be interestd to view a video of the fry - let's see if it gets through to me.

I'm confident that the original problem with the fry was caused by a protozoan infection. Once the fry are weakened, they are obviously more susceptable to secondary infections. That's why I think a broad spectrum treatment (Protozin) is applicable to your situation. I used to have this type of problem twice a year: spring and autumn. I did read a paper a number of years ago which identified protozoan 'blooms' during these seasons which were transmitted through the local water supplier. These protozoans are not effected by the chlorine treatment of the water supply.

Paul

Pat and Paul,

this sees very plausable . I tend to have issues in the spring and fall also. Pat I believe these things are just always present in our tap water and during certain conditions they proliferate. fry are always particularly vulnerable.

[Second Hand Pat]

Good luck with the babies.

Did you deworm them because they were acting off or just as a precautionary measure? My fish were acting off after I treated my fish with levamisole in the past. Looking foward to good news soon.

They seemed off to me Yun. I am just glad Paul posted in the spawn thread and noticed them being off too as I wasn't sure. Now I know.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat and Paul,

this sees very plausable . I tend to have issues in the spring and fall also. Pat I believe these things are just always present in our tap water and during certain conditions they proliferate. fry are always particularly vulnerable.

Thanks Leo, always something to look out for. The fry look a little better this morning?

[Second Hand Pat]

I just rewatched the last video. Youtube wanted to "brighten" it up. Not a good result.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well well, I just had a better then lukewarm feeding response :)

[strawberryblonde]

Woot!!!! Go fry! =)

[Rummy]

Pat, I am following this thread and hoping all the best for you and your fry. I can't offer any medical help. That's what the experts here are for. (Thanks guys.) But I do want to let you know that we are all crossing fingers and toes here for you. What a ride you've been through!

I hope for the best. This is probably just a bump in the road.

[Second Hand Pat]

Woot!!!! Go fry! =)


Pat, I am following this thread and hoping all the best for you and your fry. I can't offer any medical help. That's what the experts here are for. (Thanks guys.) But I do want to let you know that we are all crossing fingers and toes here for you. What a ride you've been through!

I hope for the best. This is probably just a bump in the road.

Thanks Toni and Anik, they are looking considerable better BUT there are a handful that are darker then the rest and the feeding response needs plenty of work. Considering I am happy with the progress.

[nc0gnet0]

In the future I would hold off on the levansol until the fry are much older, perhaps 4 months. I am not sure it is even needed at all, unless the fry are showing symptoms. IMO, the issue is usually bacterial in nature with fry at this age, as they have not yet developed immunity to all the different pathogens they are going to face in life. This being said, I am not so sure that the only problem was'nt with the transfer to a larger tank. If I was convinced that the problem was bacterial in nature, I would have opted first for furan 2 over PP.

Rick

[Tommo]

Just received your email Pat - glad things are looking up with the fry. I'll replly to it tomorrow - it's late here and I've an early class to teach in the morning!

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Rick, this is my first batch of fry so definitely a learning process. I do feel that the issue is primarily bacterial and not a result of moving to a larger tank. I feel my problem arose due to overfeeding the tank and perhaps not maintaining a clean enough tank despite trying too. As you know everyone has their recommendations based on their best practices and experiences. I am doing my best here despite conflicting advice. Not always easy to walk in newbie's shoes and I appreciate your words of wisdom. The fly seem to be rallying but there will be some culls as a result of them being set back from this incident.

[Eddie]

Glad to hear the fry are doing better Pat.

[Discus Origins]

Pat, glad they are looking better. Given them a day to recover from PP treatment and then proceed with what we talked about salt/kanamycin combination for external and bacterial problems. I would not suggest redosing any levamisol or PP on them. At most I would add metro to the cocktail for now.

[Second Hand Pat]

Just received your email Pat - glad things are looking up with the fry. I'll replly to it tomorrow - it's late here and I've an early class to teach in the morning!

Paul

Want to thank you Paul for putting my doubts in action.


Glad to hear the fry are doing better Pat.

Thank you too Eddie for suggesting moving them back into a clean BB 40 and the metro/kana treatment plan.


Pat, glad they are looking better. Given them a day to recover from PP treatment and then proceed with what we talked about salt/kanamycin combination for external and bacterial problems. I would not suggest redosing any levamisol or PP on them. At most I would add metro to the cocktail for now.

Thanks Mark, thanks for chatting with me last night especially with being away all weekend. I have not quite talked myself into the salt yet.

[Second Hand Pat]

Not perfect but better. Most of the fry on the right hand side are pecking off the bottom and the guys on the left are catching stuff in the current from the AC 30. Then are a few of the dark ones who really are not eating well.


http://youtu.be/VXftop23_XI

[Second Hand Pat]

http://youtu.be/e6wt8W9D1go

[Chicago Discus]

They are looking much better :) Pat I'm so happy for you........Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Josie, these guys have really turned around but not 100% yet :)

[Eddie]

Looking much better and lively! Hope they continue to progress Pat!

[jimg]

Pat are you doing the metro treatment as we discussed in pm's?

[Second Hand Pat]

Looking much better and lively! Hope they continue to progress Pat!

Thanks Eddie and thank you for your help.

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat are you doing the metro treatment as we discussed in pm's?

Yes Jim and at the dosage you recommended. I also appreciate your help also.

[Second Hand Pat]

Please note that I appreciate all who have helped here, Eddie, Jim, Mark, Keith, Leo and Josie to name a few. I am switching from treating bacterial to externals as the fry have been flashing. I am not sure if I had any baterial issues and even if not I believe the metro helped to jump start the fry feeding response so I had a two prong reason to start with metro/kana with salt added to relief the flashing. Next up is to address externals.

[Rummy]

I am glad things are looking up. What a scary time.

[Second Hand Pat]

I am glad things are looking up. What a scary time.

So true Anik, I kept forgetting to unplug the heater in the WC barrow when doing their WCs. Thank goodness I do not use glass heaters.

[Rummy]

So true Anik, I kept forgetting to unplug the heater in the WC barrow when doing their WCs. Thank goodness I do not use glass heaters.

Been there, done that. NOT fun. I no longer use glass for the same reason. I am also way too much of a klutz for glass. I have burned out a non glass heater in the barrel also. I used to always forget to unplug it as well. Luckily, the water is a constant 29 Celsius all year long. I finally turned them off.
Can you lay the heater down on the bottom of the barrel? That way, it is always a little submerged.

[shoveltrash]

so happy to see your little ones are improving! just wanted to let you know, I follow your ups & downs with great interest - something (things!) to learn from your experiences eh?
fingers crossed things continue to get better :)

[Second Hand Pat]

Been there, done that. NOT fun. I no longer use glass for the same reason. I am also way too much of a klutz for glass. I have burned out a non glass heater in the barrel also. I used to always forget to unplug it as well. Luckily, the water is a constant 29 Celsius all year long. I finally turned them off.
Can you lay the heater down on the bottom of the barrel? That way, it is always a little submerged.

Anik, I always tip my WC barrows on the side is get as much water out as possible. I just have to remember to unplug the darn things.


so happy to see your little ones are improving! just wanted to let you know, I follow your ups & downs with great interest - something (things!) to learn from your experiences eh?
fingers crossed things continue to get better :)

Aw thanks Trish, glad you are finding this useful. Sometimes I wonder if I just talk to much and then someone will post that they are learning from my mis-adventures so guess it is worth it. ;)

Pictures from tonight. Fry are grazing on BBS to help build them back up.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/P1010013.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/Wild%20Tefe%20Spawn/p1010011.jpg

[Kingdom Come Discus]

So glad their doing better Pat.

[Second Hand Pat]

So glad their doing better Pat.

Thanks Kraig, what a learning experience with these Tefe, most seem to be rebounding but a couple are on the fence.

[Rummy]

No, you don't talk too much. Those of us that have no experience need as much information as we can get.
Thanks for taking the time out to post and keep us up to date. We are actually learning a lot.

[fredfry]

No, you don't talk too much. Those of us that have no experience need as much information as we can get.
Thanks for taking the time out to post and keep us up to date. We are actually learning a lot.

Yes, we grasshoppers need all the info we can get. Read read read. LOL

[Second Hand Pat]

No, you don't talk too much. Those of us that have no experience need as much information as we can get.
Thanks for taking the time out to post and keep us up to date. We are actually learning a lot.


Yes, we grasshoppers need all the info we can get. Read read read. LOL

Cool guys, nothing better then the school of hard knocks to teach the basics :)

I added a large sponge filter last night to the fry tank to help clear the crap from the water column. Happy to report that the water was clear this morning. Phew. Will be squeezing those sponges out tonight. My sump based systems have me spoiled.

[Kal-El]

I know you said you use "PP" to treat your fry is that "PraziPro". I'm a newbie at this and still learning all the terms and trying to learn from your experience so I can apply to my fish.

[Second Hand Pat]

I know you said you use "PP" to treat your fry is that "PraziPro". I'm a newbie at this and still learning all the terms and trying to learn from your experience so I can apply to my fish.

kalelhawj, in this instance PP is Potassium Permanganate. I PPed the fry at 1ppm the first night I moved them back to the 40 breeder. I would suggest doing research on PP to understand how to make a stock solution, how to use it and when to use it. It can harm your fish if not used correctly.

[Tommo]

Funny story about Potassium Permanganate - slightly off-topic. A couple or so years ago a friend of mine went into a local pharmacy to buy some PP to treat his fish. The woman assistant behind the counter asked him to wait while the pharmacist made up the order. About 15 minutes later the police terrorist squad arrived at the shop and questioned my friend as to why he wanted the PP - my friend was 'gob-smacked' (local expression for lost for words). Apparently, PP is a common ingredient used for making bombs and the pharmacist has called 999 (911 in the US for emergency services?) to report my friend. He had a difficult job convincing the police that it was simply for treating his tropical fish:).

BTW Pat pleased to hear that you've added and additional sponge filter.

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Funny story about Potassium Permanganate - slightly off-topic. A couple or so years ago a friend of mine went into a local pharmacy to buy some PP to treat his fish. The woman assistant behind the counter asked him to wait while the pharmacist made up the order. About 15 minutes later the police terrorist squad arrived at the shop and questioned my friend as to why he wanted the PP - my friend was 'gob-smacked' (local expression for lost for words). Apparently, PP is a common ingredient used for making bombs and the pharmacist has called 999 (911 in the US for emergency services?) to report my friend. He had a difficult job convincing the police that it was simply for treating his tropical fish:).

BTW Pat pleased to here that you've added and additional sponge filter.

Paul

Hi Paul, amazing how our fish can get us in trouble. Yes, the additional sponge was much needed.

[Keith Perkins]

kalelhawj, in this instance PP is Potassium Permanganate. I PPed the fry at 1ppm the first night I moved them back to the 40 breeder. I would suggest doing research on PP to understand how to make a stock solution, how to use it and when to use it. It can harm your fish if not used correctly.

Very true, here is the best information I know of on it. http://bidka.org/pp1.shtml

[Second Hand Pat]

That is a great writeup Keith

[Keith Perkins]

Yup, I follow it very closely. Never exceed 2 ppm with quarterish size fish, I've gone higher to maintain purple with adults without problem, but not beyond the maximum recommended dosage.

[Second Hand Pat]

All pictures from tonight.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/p1010018.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1010019.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1010020.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1010021.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1010022.jpg
http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad95/Second_Hand_Pat/P1010023.jpg

[jimg]

A little late but I would continue the metro for at least 7 days then break then salt dip then qc or flubendazole if they are still flashing. I'm not sure if the kana is irritating them. it is possible that if they have flukes, that is what could have weakened them and let internal issues get out of control.
I see a couple have flared/wide open gills could just be pics though.
Anyway I hope whatever issues it is makes them stronger and they grow out nice for you

[Second Hand Pat]

Thanks Jim, I had not considered a salt dip. The flubendazole was my next plan if they were still flashing like you are suggesting.

None of the fry from my observations are showing gill when the gill flap is closed.

Pat

[D/I/S/C/U/S]

yea same here I'm learning a lot also perfect timing due to my 2 wild paired up and soon be breeding, now if i need to i can go back and read threw all this beautiful posting again.

thanks pat and everyone!

[shoveltrash]

here is the best information I know of on it. http://bidka.org/pp1.shtml

That is a great writeup Keith+1!!!!
great article.

Pat they look good to me, fwiw :). what's that white stuff at the bottom of the tank in the 2nd pic?

[Keith Perkins]

I've got a shorter quick reference version of it if anyone wants it. It just has U.S. conversions in it. I always remember 2 drops per gallon of the stock mix per gallon, but always forget how much hydrogen peroxide to use to neutralize it. PM me your e-mail if you want a copy.

[Second Hand Pat]

yea same here I'm learning a lot also perfect timing due to my 2 wild paired up and soon be breeding, now if i need to i can go back and read threw all this beautiful posting again.

thanks pat and everyone!

You are welcome D/I/S/C/U/S, definitely need a name here lol


+1!!!!
great article.

Pat they look good to me, fwiw :). what's that white stuff at the bottom of the tank in the 2nd pic?

Thanks Trish, that is flake food. I didn't get all of it small enough lol. Looks huge in the picture.

[Second Hand Pat]

Fry eating Al's FDBWs stuck to the glass. The fry lower in the water column are eating what is coming off the cubes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0hsm3VG5cvg&feature=youtu.be

[Rummy]

Looking good!

[Second Hand Pat]

Looking good!

Thanks Anik, actually today has been a good day. The fry have shown a greatly enhanced feeding response today so I is a happy woman tonight.:D

[Kingdom Come Discus]

That is great news.

[xKevinx]

glad to see they are looking better. congrats on the spawn btw

[Second Hand Pat]

That is great news.

Indeed Kraig and thanks


glad to see they are looking better. congrats on the spawn btw

Thanks Kevin

[CrazyAngels]

Pat, I'm so very glad they are coming around for you. They sure seem to be wanting to eat, and that surely is the best sign to improvement.. Take care

[Eddie]

Glad they are getting better Pat!

[Second Hand Pat]

Pat, I'm so very glad they are coming around for you. They sure seem to be wanting to eat, and that surely is the best sign to improvement.. Take care

Thanks Jorge, it has been one week yesterday that I pull these guys back into the 40 and their desire to eat continues, their color is good and all are hungry and active. I did lose two this past week, one died and I knew it would (hoping to cull and scope) and the other I culled. If I can catch the fish with my hand I figure it is not good.


Glad they are getting better Pat!

Thank you for your help Eddie.

[dpete9]

Finding your threads very interesting. These guys are kind of famous by now. Looking nice

[xKevinx]

+ 1 for interesting threads by second hand pat. check out his wild breeding video with the fin shimmy i learnt alot from it for my wilds

[Second Hand Pat]

Finding your threads very interesting. These guys are kind of famous by now. Looking nice

Pete, check out my homesteader section and yes, these fry have definitely assume a sort of public life which means I better do right by them.


+ 1 for interesting threads by second hand pat. check out his wild breeding video with the fin shimmy i learnt alot from it for my wilds

Thanks Keven, if you like I can create a thread with some of the Tefe video's. I have quite a few of them now.

[Second Hand Pat]

After the fry's WC tonight they wanted to eat :D generally they have been hiding. Love it.

[strawberryblonde]

I'm over here cheering them on Pat. Go go fry!!! :D

[Second Hand Pat]

I'm over here cheering them on Pat. Go go fry!!! :D

:D

[Second Hand Pat]

A right lively crew. Excuse the messy tank but wanted to catch this with some natural light. Look close at the smaller ones, they may be stunted. If they are it is very easy to stunt fry. I am not going to cull yet as long as everyone is healthy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIuFp2tFdXo&feature=youtu.be

[Darrell Ward]

Glad they have perked up. I've been so busy lately, I missed a lot of stuff.

[Second Hand Pat]

Glad they have perked up. I've been so busy lately, I missed a lot of stuff.

Thanks Darrell, I noticed you have been MIA. Guess your work hours have picked up?

[Darrell Ward]

Yeah, working 12 hour days at my job, plus working on our new house, and moving an entire house load of stuff across 2 counties have me a little ragged! LOL! Still not finished with everything. It never ends!

[Second Hand Pat]

Yea, it will be worth it in the end....except for the busted tank...bites