Badly bloated and swollen eyes...

[SeaDragon]

http://img.tapatalk.com/185d6fe6-dfa3-3326.jpgDISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE
1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started
Male Green Turquoise started having slightly enlarged eyes last night (4/15/12). This morning he his eyes were much larger, swollen wise. Then this afternoon his stomach was very, swollen. Need help, I don't want to loose this guy.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds) he's dark, eating though, poop unknown, haven't seen any white in the tank though, hiding, bloated, cloudy swollen eyes.

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment
No medication, 90% water change this afternoon, wanted to wait and see how that helped first.

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
90gal tank, bb except for a fake root fixture and a couple live plants on it. Tank has been running since Nov 09, fish added Feb 10. 3 discus, he's 7inch, 6inch mate, and another 6inch discus. I know not ideal, though another breeding pair thats normally with them is in a separate tank currently (they were moved over a month ago).

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
WC twice a week, Tuesday and Saturday mornings. Tank has been running since 09. BB, no aging

6 Parameters and water source
- temp 82.5F
- ph 6.8
- ammonia reading 0
- nitrite reading 0
- nitrate reading 0
- GH 75
- KH 40
- Chlorine 0
- well water no
- municipal water no
- Tap water Yes
7. Any new fish/plants added recently
No

[-gb-]

Adding epsom salts may help. You can treat the entire tank. 1 teaspoon for 10 gallons

[SeaDragon]

Adding epsom salts may help. You can treat the entire tank. 1 teaspoon for 10 gallons

How long do you continue with the Epsom salt? Is it added at that dose everyday? Would you do a daily water change when adding it? Sorry for all the questions, I've never used it.

[Northwoods Discus]

Probable bacterial infection. "Bloat" of the abdomen would not cause the eyes to bulge. Separate tank and antibiotics.

[SeaDragon]

Probable bacterial infection. "Bloat" of the abdomen would not cause the eyes to bulge. Separate tank and antibiotics.

Would it be safe to take the pair I have in a 20gal and swap them? What kind of antibiotics would you recommend?

[Skip]

Salt does not evaporate.. U could even do 2 tablespoons per 10gallon. But with mine I would see difference in about 4 hours.. But u dont add anymore salt.. But if u wc.. Only add the salt that u take out...

[SeaDragon]

Salt does not evaporate.. U could even do 2 tablespoons per 10gallon. But with mine I would see difference in about 4 hours.. But u dont add anymore salt.. But if u wc.. Only add the salt that u take out...

Good to know, thanks. So what are your thoughts Skip, salt or antibiotic? And which antibiotic

[Skip]

Good to know, thanks. So what are your thoughts Skip, salt or antibiotic? And which antibiotic

i don't do meds..

i imagine.. eddie any tell you furan or metro.. BUT

i have never used them.. so you need to wait.. i would venture to say.. it was water quality that lead up to this both discus look dark.. you did not say.. what % water you were pulling out of your tank twice a week..

[SeaDragon]

i don't do meds..

i imagine.. eddie any tell you furan or metro.. BUT

i have never used them.. so you need to wait.. i would venture to say.. it was water quality that lead up to this both discus look dark.. you did not say.. what % water you were pulling out of your tank twice a week..

I normally do 90% for all my water changes, purely so they stay underwater or I would do 100%. I'll try doing daily water changes, if that doesn't start to help ill try some Epson salt.

[Skip]

you can do the salt now.. if you don't see change in 24 hrs.. you need meds..

[MostlyDiscus]

Metro

[Northwoods Discus]

For a septicemia if still eating, kanamycin flake, sulfa antibiotic or other internal bacterial antibiotic. Metro is an antibiotic but not absorbed into tissue well, it is used more for protozoal infections or bacterial gastrointestinal infections.

[Eddie]

Wow, lots of advice here. These 2 fish look REALLY bad off. Strange for them to go south so fast. Do you have any antibiotics? I'd suggest Kanamycin prolonged bath.

[Skip]

Wow, lots of advice here. These 2 fish look REALLY bad off. Strange for them to go south so fast. Do you have any antibiotics? I'd suggest Kanamycin prolonged bath.

finally.. :)

[RubyRed]

I had a similiar situation recently. I would put the turk in a qt tank and dose with epsom salt. After he poops (usually < 12 hours) do a complete waterchange and follow with a course of antibiotics. I used Furan 2 with good results.

[Eddie]

finally.. :)

LOL, I can't be on 24/7!

[Skip]

LOL, I can't be on 24/7!

if you just stopped eating protein and working out .. you could!

[Eddie]

if you just stopped eating protein and working out .. you could!

LMAO

[SeaDragon]

My only problem with a quarantine tank is that my usual hospital tank is being used for a pair. Would it be majorly problematic to move the pair to this "infected" tank then put the sick guy into their breeding/hospital tank? I know stupid move to make it be used for both. However, I'm very limited on number and size of tanks I can have.

So start some Epson salts, wait for any results. Then some meds... These many lists of meds are way over my head so I'll be doing some research as to what they do and are. So far what's been suggested has been Metro (somewhat), Kanamycin (flake or bath), Sulfa antibiotic, and Furan 2. I currently don't have any antibiotics other then a Fungus med.

The other fish in the tank seem fine, though his female has had those bars showing off and on lately. WC don't really seem to change her baring level.

[Skip]

i would listen to EDDIE :)

[Chicago Discus]

Wow, lots of advice here. These 2 fish look REALLY bad off. Strange for them to go south so fast. Do you have any antibiotics? I'd suggest Kanamycin prolonged bath.
+1 The Kanamycin you can also use some salt with it IMO

[SeaDragon]

Alrighty, kanamycin it is. Should I treat the tank he's in with Epson in the mean time before I have the Kanamycin?
What's a recommendation about the Q tank?
Thanks so much everyone for the help! I really appreciate it

[lipadj46]

You will need to dose the kana much higher than it says on the package. Search here for the dosage. There is a seller on aquabid, MVP that has the best price on 100g kana. It will wipe out you Bio filter pretty good too

sent from my ti-85 during chemistry class

[jimg]

To be honest I wouldn't waste $ on meds. could very well be kidney failure.

[SeaDragon]

I feel I should mention that recently I have had a couple discus have white fungus looking spots on their forehead, only a single spot. I treated this with Kordon Rid-Fungus. that took care of it pretty well.

[SeaDragon]

To be honest I wouldn't waste $ on meds. could very well be kidney failure.

Yeah I figure it could be a number of random thing. Nature just takes it's course sometimes. I'm looking through a fish disease/illness book as I type this.

[Ioan C.]

These are the symptoms of ascites.
Furan 2, 1 tablet (100mg Natrium-Nifurstyrenat) per 20 liters, 4 days. 1gram/8L iodine-free salt is supportive.
Ascites is highly infectious, especially after the death of the fish.
The treatment should be done in a separate tank.
The disease can be transferred with utensils.

[SeaDragon]

These are the symptoms of ascites.
Furan 2, 1 tablet (100mg Natrium-Nifurstyrenat) per 20 liters, 4 days. 1gram/8L iodine-free salt is supportive.
Ascites is highly infectious, especially after the death of the fish.
The treatment should be done in a separate tank.
The disease can be transferred with utensils.

Except his scales aren't raised like typical ascites (dropsy) he's as smooth as a normal fish.

[Ioan C.]

Discus scales do not lift when they fall ill with ascites.
I've never seen a picture of a discus with raised scales, real also not, but dissected Discus with ascites and normally lying scales.
Can someone show me one?
http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/9849/008200x.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/008200x.jpg/) http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/2346/002200c.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/88/002200c.jpg/) http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/7690/003200.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/215/003200.jpg/)

[Orange Crush]

Should I treat the tank he's in with Epson in the mean time before I have the Kanamycin?
In the future, when you see bloat start with epsom salt asap while waiting for people to give treatment recommendations. It is not a med but the sooner you treat with epsom salt the more likely it will work and potentially save their life.
Also, poor water quality will be the cause of many of the problems with discus health and daily water changes will cure many of the problems.

[magewynd]

Show us a picture of what you are talking about. One with dropsy or even one that you have dissected. She said it did not have raised scales and I have never seen a discus with raised scales. Please show us what dropsy looks like on a discus.
Discus scales do not lift when they fall ill with ascites.
I've never seen a picture of a discus with raised scales, real also not, but dissected Discus with ascites and normally lying scales.
Can someone show me one?

[Ioan C.]

The pictures do not belong to me, they are in books, ex: "Health problems of discus" Horst W. Köhler, page 202-203.
I am not alloud to show them. I've never dissected a discus. The internal organs and the abdominal cavity is filled with transparent yellowish watery fluid.

[SeaDragon]

Those pictures are quite similar except for the eyes and how his are bulged.
Right now my best guess is Hemorrhagic Septicemia, he had faint scratches in a few days prior of which I did not connect to this situation. This I feel could have a connection to this, but I'm not certain of this. Sorry for leaving out this possibly important detail.
Tonight I will treat with Epsom salts in the tank he is currently housed.
I'm going to get Kanaplex (Kanamycin Sulfate) and Furan 2 (Nitrofurazone) to treat him. It's said that they can be used together for more difficult/serious cases.
Since it seems that it's a single specimen case, I'll swap the fish to the breeding/hospital tank in the morning, after another 90% water change of the tanks. In addition to this I will certainly be trying to up my WC regime.
If you see problems with this please state so, I'm open for further suggestions. Other wise this is what I'll be doing from the given suggestions.

[SeaDragon]

I was wondering though, how much and how often is it recommended to use these two meds.
I ran across a old (2005 ) threads saying the directions were bogus, and that more was needed of the Kanaplex.

[magewynd]

I used this combo recently. Kanaplex has a scoop (really small measure) and I followed the direction- 1 scoop per 5 gal. It say dose every other day so when I did a WC on the second day I would replace for the amount of water I removed for ex. 10 gal - 2 scoops. Third day the full dose, etc. Follow the box directions for the Furan 2 ( I used BiFuran which I got from IGO Pro). I would do this for 7 to 10 days, but I was using BiFuran. Check with Eddie. You may not see improvements till day 6 or so. I used this on a new pair and they continued to lay, spawn and hatch. Now, I just wish I could get her from eating the newly hatched fry.
Let us know how the epsom salt is working. Is it pooping?
I was wondering though, how much and how often is it recommended to use these two meds.
I ran across a old (2005 ) threads saying the directions were bogus, and that more was needed of the Kanaplex. I was a little heavy on the Kanaplex dose.

[SeaDragon]

I used this combo recently. Kanaplex has a scoop (really small measure) and I followed the direction- 1 scoop per 5 gal. It say dose every other day so when I did a WC on the second day I would replace for the amount of water I removed for ex. 10 gal - 2 scoops. Third day the full dose, etc. Follow the box directions for the Furan 2 ( I used BiFuran which I got from IGO Pro). I would do this for 7 to 10 days, but I was using BiFuran. Check with Eddie. You may not see improvements till day 6 or so. I used this on a new pair and they continued to lay, spawn and hatch. Now, I just wish I could get her from eating the newly hatched fry.
Let us know how the epsom salt is working. Is it pooping? I was a little heavy on the Kanaplex dose.

Good info, thanks. I haven't seen him poop, he's always been stubborn to poop when I'm around. I do see dark green poop on the bottom though. Unknown who's though.
He and his mate are showing their little parts now though. Fed them a homemade BH cube and he at least took some into his mouth, he spit it out though. Female didnt try it. The red dragon also spit it out... Something in the BH mix cause this?

[SeaDragon]

I spoke too soon, the female did eat some food.

[magewynd]

That's good that they are eating. You might want to heed OC's advice and up those water changes. If the waters not right, external bacteria infections can turn into internal bacteria problems. Okay, this worked for me but like Skip said ask Eddie if you thinks it's getting worse.He is one of the the best on this board for sickness problems.

[Eddie]

Kanamycin dosage.

190-380 mg per gallon every 3 days for 3 treatments, changing 50% before each redose.

[SeaDragon]

Breakfast this morning they didn't seem interested in. Though the Epson salt does seem to have helped with his eyes and possibly a little on the stomach.
Thanks for the med info! I'll defiantly be upping the water changes now on.
I don't know if it matters, but everyone in my other tanks are active, bright, eating machines, no problems with them to speak of.

[Eddie]

Breakfast this morning they didn't seem interested in. Though the Epson salt does seem to have helped with his eyes and possibly a little on the stomach.
Thanks for the med info! I'll defiantly be upping the water changes now on.
I don't know if it matters, but everyone in my other tanks are active, bright, eating machines, no problems with them to speak of.

You will want to treat the fish in a hospital tank and not the main tank. This will reduce cost of the meds and increase the efficacy of it.

[SeaDragon]

Okay I'll move him over, I just thought I'd keep him in there until I had the better meds. Though I'm concerned about moving the pair into this contaminated tank. Especially if the other two aren't really eating.

[Eddie]

Okay I'll move him over, I just thought I'd keep him in there until I had the better meds. Though I'm concerned about moving the pair into this contaminated tank. Especially if the other two aren't really eating.

Move the sick fish to their own tank, not into a tank with other fish.

[SeaDragon]

The three possibly sick fish are in a 20gal (long) for treatment. Just waiting for the drugs to come, tomorrow they'll be here! The male seems to be getting better even without the drugs, eye and stomach swelling is down.
Just a few more questions, thanks!
Does the snail that's in the tank need treated in case he harbors this?
Does all the filter material need thrown out?
Does the tank need broken down and treated with a dab of bleach? Or just a good scrub down?
Can the scrub pad or nets used be used again or thrown out?
Does the temperature need to be raised to a specific point?

[Eddie]

The three possibly sick fish are in a 20gal (long) for treatment. Just waiting for the drugs to come, tomorrow they'll be here! The male seems to be getting better even without the drugs, eye and stomach swelling is down.
Just a few more questions, thanks!

Does the snail that's in the tank need treated in case he harbors this? Shouldn't need to be.
Does all the filter material need thrown out? No, unless the issue returns when you place the fish back in the main tank.
Does the tank need broken down and treated with a dab of bleach? Or just a good scrub down? No, unless the issue returns when you place the fish back in the main tank.
Can the scrub pad or nets used be used again or thrown out? You can use them, just clean them well, or sterilize them.
Does the temperature need to be raised to a specific point? No, raising temperature for bacterial problems can makes things worse. Keep a good amount of air in the tank to increase o2 levels.

[SeaDragon]

Great to know! Thanks so much! Good news the swelling has gone down a lot and their pooping (though it's a brownish red) also the meds finally came. So their all currently being treated now.

[SeaDragon]

Kanamycin dosage.

190-380 mg per gallon every 3 days for 3 treatments, changing 50% before each redose.

Are you sure about this? 180mg is the dose for 5 gallons. I did as the directions said after I did a 50% water change today.

[Eddie]

Are you sure about this? 180mg is the dose for 5 gallons. I did as the directions said after I did a 50% water change today.

Yeah, I am 100% sure. Many commercial fish treatments will have a lower dosage than what is used/prescribed by aquatic vets. Its good to know about the chemicals and how they are used effectively in treating specific ailments.

[SeaDragon]

Yeah, I am 100% sure. Many commercial fish treatments will have a lower dosage than what is used/prescribed by aquatic vets. Its good to know about the chemicals and how they are used effectively in treating specific ailments.

Okay thanks, just thought I could have been a spell check "helping". Good to know ill keep that in mind.
After just one treatment their eating, pooping, and arguing just like old times. I'll follow through the treatment and keep a good eye on these guys. Thanks so much for the help everyone!

[Eddie]

Okay thanks, just thought I could have been a spell check "helping". Good to know ill keep that in mind.
After just one treatment their eating, pooping, and arguing just like old times. I'll follow through the treatment and keep a good eye on these guys. Thanks so much for the help everyone!

Thats great news! Hope they continue to progress!

[SeaDragon]

The symptoms are back. The male green turquoise is swollen up pretty badly, though not his eyes this time. It's only him showing any signs of a problem. He's dark in color, though he schools and acts normal.the swelling keeps gets bigger over the past couple days.
I haven't mixed any individuals or media from the tanks since the last issue. gladly no other fish have been exposed.

[perea1419]

im having the same problem right now. he started out with tail rot but that whent away and now he has cloud eye and popeye hes been in qt for 3 days and ive been doing water changes of 50% every day im using salt and melafix and metro but no good results yet any sudgestion

[SeaDragon]

im having the same problem right now. he started out with tail rot but that whent away and now he has cloud eye and popeye hes been in qt for 3 days and ive been doing water changes of 50% every day im using salt and melafix and metro but no good results yet any sudgestion

I'd say skip the Melafix, I like you, thought it would help a lot. though doing more water changes does even better then adding junk to the water. Try upping the water changes and getting some specific medications (Kens Fish is a good place to look.

I've been upping water changes and feeding more beef heart mix instead of as much flake. He seems to be getting better, still dark though, and the female has bars now.

[perea1419]

yeah thats what ive heard he started swimming arund today so just water changes it is for him still not feeding him dont think he will eat but thax alot for the advise keep me posted on how it goes