About the Discus University forum?

[fullmonti]

I tried to ask these questions & make comments/observations months ago but got the message I was not permitted to. I thought it was because I was new, but have since come to understand no one is. Seems that forum is set up for rating fish by the most experienced of our members & not discussion. So guess this is as good a place as any.

I was puzzled at how many people wanted their fish rated. I wondered what do you expect to get from the rating process? What will you do with this info? The worst case I imagined would be, gee I bought a really crappy fish & flush it? The best I imagined would be, Great! I bought a good fish after all?

The reason I ask is I'm sure we all have gone to a movie or bought a book that the reviewers raved about & you absolutely did not like it, or the reverse. It seems the reviewers have there idea of what good is & that may or may not even come close to yours.

It appears to me most if not all of the judging criteria for quality Discus are arbitrary aesthetic judgements. It's always good to know what the experts think about any given subject. It helps us know more about the variables & options. But at the end of the day it is we who are paying for the movie or buying the book, or fish. For me, if it makes me happy & i enjoy it thats what really counts. For example, the eye size of Discus is talked about a good bit. It seems to be understood that a healthy fish can either have large or small eyes, but smaller is better. I have a nano saltwater tank with a small blenny that only has one eye. He can nail a bit a food so fast it's hardly even a blur. Not only doesn't it matter to me if his eyes are big or small he doesn't even have two & still I love watching him go about his business.

Guess what I'm saying is, sure ask the experts. But it's you that's paying for the fish, setting up the tank & doing the maintenance. If it makes you happy & you like it, that's what really matters. Not meeting a list of requirements.

What's your thoughts on all this?
Jim

And if I have misinterpreted some thing, or stepped on any toes, let me know & apologize now. Just trying to get a conversation started on this.

[TNT77]

If all people looked for quality or at least tried to get the best quality possible for their means in an animal the world would be a much better place. We no longer would have people breeding what ever will breed together just to have something to sell. I have seen it with horses plenty of times. People looked at it just the way you are suggesting. Oh look at this pretty colored horse lets breed it. Why does it matter it has conformation faults that will cause it to be crippled at an early age. But hey gosh is it pretty colored lets make babies that have the same issues. So we have to make ourselves the judge and follow certain guidelines of what quality is to try and stand behind. Its the quantity not quality aspect that makes the lives for any animal so much harder. The University is such a place to learn and hone the eye for looking for those good qualities in a fish.

[Mep1127]

Aside the fact stated above me I believe it also lets people know if they own show worthy discus. similar to a dog contest, discus contests exsist and are rated by shape and other factors as well as the strain / coloration

[strawberryblonde]

I'm not sure, but I think you might be under a misconception regarding eye size in discus.

It's not that they can have large eyes or small eyes. (though size does vary a wee bit, depending on the strain, etc). The eye size is an indicator of normal growth in discus and that's the important part of it.

If you look at a stunted discus, you'll find that the size of their eyes is the same as a normal sized discus. That's because the eye continues to grow even if the rest of the body isn't getting adequate nutrition for growth. Hence all the emphasis on eye size when people are asked for opinions on the quality of discus on these forums. It's the first indicator for all of us on whether or not the discus in question has had adequate nutrition, is healthy (disease and parasite free) and has had enough clean water daily in order to thrive and grow.

[cjr8420]

dont think of it as reveiwing/opinion,think of it as scoring/judging in a beauty contest but with pics.

[fullmonti]

I did see that explanation about growth & eye size. That part of it mad since, it just seems to go past that some how. Even if a fish was some what stunted from poor conditions while growing, thats environmental not genetic isn't it?

I wonder how many people here that sent pictures of their fish in to be judged have sent pictures of their family dog to the AKC to have judged? You may say we would be better off if more did. My guess would be a very small percentage has sent dog pictures off though. I wondered why that is?

On the subject of breeding. I have had fish of one short or another from the 60's in high school (even saltwater back then) This is my first time with Discus so I'm not a Discus expert. From what I understand though they breed quite easily (my first four have made two pairs that have both spawned in less than a month) but are quite difficult to rase? How many irresponsible people actually breed their Discus & have the knowledge & will to rase them up & get them out on the market? I'm sure there are some, but you make it sound like it is a huge problem.

Mostly I am curious about couple things.

Discus experts seem to me to have a much narrower set of requirements for their idea of a quality animal & seem to be much more adamant that absolutely every thing out side of this list is unacceptable or at least undesirable. Things like are they exactly round or is the color pattern just so Even though the list seem to deal mostly with aesthetics not health. It might be because this is the first group I have been involved with that I have joined a online forum for though.

Another thing is how many people who have no intention of going into the Discus breeding business seem to be so interested in what this list of quality requirements is. Why they don't just buy a healthy active fish they like, take it home & enjoy having them. If it isn't exactly the perfect shape or the pattern is off a hair (according to the list) what difference does it make. Like the book or the movie their likes & dislikes are their own, they don't have to be the same as any one else. Like I said I bet their dog or cat isn't perfect either & most don't worry about that.

I still would like to hear more of what people expected to get from the rating process & what they do with/about the info they get from it.

I should add I think this site is great!!! Because it give us a chance to do things like this, exchange ideas & learn.

thanks
Jim

[Cevoe]

I don't agree that judging a discus standard for quality is an arbitrary evaluation based on someones opinion.
The criteria for what makes a fish a quality fish is explained in quite a few books.
There is a good explanation of eye size as a sticky in the university section.
Throughout the section there are also ratings and explanations for ratings that are very informative.
Personally, I wish I would have known what I know now before buying some of the discus I currently own.
There are plenty of inferior discus being spawned and sold with no or little regard to what a quality discus should be.

[Skip]

Personally, I wish I would have known what I know now before buying some of the discus I currently own.
There are plenty of inferior discus being spawned and sold with no or little regard to what a quality discus should be.

exactly!!!!!!!!!! thanks

some people just strive for more knowledge.. others just are happy with what they already know and feel they don't need additional info..

Discus University is not for everybody.. the world still needs Discus that Dig ditches..

[Rummy]

Permit me a camparison to the dog world. If I were to breed dogs, I would be sure to use a high quality, show standard dog. (Otherwise, all offspring would be required to be neutered.) I would not want to continue to deteriorate the breed standard and/or health of any offspring by breeding inferior animals. The only way I could be sure of quality, is to have him judged by others. I.E. in a show ring.
I own both types of dog. I have a "pet quality" one that does not conform to the standards. I love him dearly regardless of poor conformation. However, for this reason (and many others), I chose to not allow him to breed. In my eyes, he is the best dog on this Earth. I also have one the was "show quality" and was intended for breeding. When we discovered a quality defect, we also took her out of the breeding line. Had I not known about this defect, I would have continued to propagate poor genes and decrease breed quality as a whole.
My point is, that having fish judged is a wonderful tool to assist us in making decisions about quality. It gives us the chance to have a qualified person evaluate the quality of our potential show/brooding stock in a quantitative way. It also helps to train our eyes to recognize the details. It gives us the chance to know what we need in order to improve our own stock.
I do not think that every fish needs an evaluation. Just like 95% of the dogs out there. I think that those who are curious and those who truly want to improve quality should have their fish judged.

[Northwoods Discus]

Judging is important to identify superior stock. I think most people who use the university are trying to get an idea if their stock is quality and use this information to make decisions about putting all the work in to raising offspring. Your right it would be silly to send a picture of your pet dog to the AKC for judging. Most people think their pet is the most wonderful and best looking animal. If they did get into the show world they would find out that their pet is exactly that, pet quality. It takes good genetics first, then all the work to get the animal in the proper condition and training to win.
Now with that said, judges are human. They can have their bias and "buddies". Most judges are fair. I have seen the "network" in action at dog shows when we showed retrievers. Similar dogs one handler known one unknown, guess who wins. Breeders must develop a network and be part of the "world" to advance.
Health is a big concern to the OP. Some characteristics of animals that are judged are also conducive to health. Take conformation, straight legs with good angulation will result in less arthritis in dogs and horses. Short noses in bulldogs are cute not healthy just as an example. No offense to bulldogs. So some things man made are not necessarily healthy, but are judged better to attain a certain characteristic.
Some things judged in discus are related to health. Remember too genetics are the starting point. You can't grow the perfect fish from imperfect genetics. So only the fish with the best genetics and then the proper care to maximize potential will result in a high scoring fish with good potential.

[cjr8420]

have u looked at any newb post that wants and opinion on there fish they bought from their LFS and the fish look horribly stunted football shaped large eye maxed out growth at 4.5"and a fugly peppered PB mutt.they bought those discus because they didnt know what they were looking for and thought oh this is what discus look like it gets sick they come here for help and check out the university section which has mostly average fish then they see how bad their fish really is and start learning about quality which is the point of that section.

[Skip]

monti..
you have made it very clear where you stand on "quality" discus and you enjoy what fish you have and strive for no more.. many feel same as you..

others do not.. this is for those..

here is the post of about what D.U... from RYAN H , since some people don't read the stickies.. this is for them to know what is being discussed..


PLEASE READ THE FOLLOWING POST CAREFULLY!

The University is a place for people to post pictures of their discus for an honest, unbiased critique. Fish will be judged on shape, size, eyes, fins, and color development. Replies to posts have been disabled to minimize conversation. The object of the University is not for chit-chat, but to learn about discus quality.

You may submit photos anonymously by e-mailing them to RyanH, who will post them for judging. You may also create a thread and attach the images yourself, but please do not include information about where the fish came from. A simple picture is all you need.

here are they guys know a few things about discus.. *they are the team that are allowed to post.. incase you wanted to know who the DISCUS EXPERTS were that are allowed to post..

Discus_KC
Dkarc@Aol.com
Eddie
John_Nicholson
Kenny's Discus
yim11

[TURQ64]

Some may have bred the fish in question, aside from those who just purchased a fish. And in the small world of 'showing fish', expert opinions can be parallel to a judge's opinion. It was the same in the show dog circuit when we bred and handled Danes...

[T_om]

Sigh. This is just another iteration of the "What to do with unwanted Discus" thread.

Those that cannot see or understand what breeding standards bring to the table, and the VALUE of those standards, will NEVER see what breeding standards bring to the table. To them, a pet is a pet... fish, dog, cat, hamster, etc. All are equal in their eyes. There is no "better".

It is like the current pseudo-intellectual social engineering game being played out in the educational community whereby all children are deemed "superior" with none out-performing the others. Sort of like a nation wide version of Lake Woebegone. Of course, this is utter nonsense... humans are like any other animal, some perform various tasks better than others. This aggravates the crap out of the equivalency crowd, but you can't fool Mother Nature.

Tom

[yim11]

Sigh. This is just another iteration of the "What to do with unwanted Discus" thread.

Exactly. I think this troll has been fed enough.

[fullmonti]

Thank You, those were some very well thought out & informative posts.

I like very much that you acknowledge every one loves their pets & don't even think about taking them to a show.
I kinda got the impression that a lot if not most of the people wanting there fish rated were pet owner not a potential breeder. Made me wonder if you enjoy the fish you have & your not a breeder why bother. Guess just being curious is good enough reason. To me enjoying my fish is enough. If others think they are good quality all the better, but not necessary.

I have been trying to find the answer to this question for a while now. I hope I have found a way to ask it that will bring the answer out. The term quality fish or poor quality fish is used a lot (major under statement). If your a horse person & just want a nice comfortable trail ride, a quality horse to you is a good natured walking horse that doesn't spook easily. That would be me, & if your short (that would be my wife) one that isn't too tall would be nice as well. If your into endurance riding a quality horse to you is one you can ride for 50 to 100 miles in a day. I would rather you take a stick & beat me with it than do that. If your a rancher or into barrel racing or what ever your idea of a quality horse would be quite different again. On & on I'm sure you get the idea. All of this goes with out saying a healthy horse that doesn't need the vet out all the time to keep him moving. OK Discus. It seems to me at least the Discus world has tried to pick a narrow range (if not narrow one set) of what all the different kinds of quality there are to all the different kinds of people & cram them all into one set of rules. Granted some of the requirements/rules may be for health issues. But you must admit a lot of them are strictly aesthetics. Color shades or patterns must be just so, God forbid no peppering that kind of thing. How, who & why are these thing deemed quality & any or every thing other than those things are deemed poor quality at best. And then there are the people who say things like all of those should be done away with (referencing a particular treat), thats the worst. No one here has said that but I'm sure every one has heard or said them before. Thats why I say it seems arbitrary.

I don't read very fast & it's not enjoyable to me. So I don't read a lot about any thing. I have to rely on conversation, observation & a lot of thinking to to pick up new things. So if you could give any links to fairly short articles about how & why what is or is not quality in Discus was arrived at, or better still if you really know & could say it would be appreciated.

Think there are some new posts since I started this one, so it might seem a little behind. Sorry I'm not the fastest writer either.

Jim

[John_Nicholson]

I hate to post in this thread because the purpose of DU is very clear and easy to understand, but I wanted to point out that your bit about the horses is incorrect...the horse all had different jobs, that is why you need different horses...in fish they really only have one job...that is to swim around and look pretty. Apples to oranges.

-john

[Cevoe]

We had a Chinese Shar Pei years ago and before we made the buy we made sure to research the breed and the breed standard.
When we found what we were looking for we spent the money for a dog with champion blood lines, showed him and eventually sired him out.
After sharing expenses related to the ordinary costs of rearing a litter we took our pick of the litter and put her up for sale at a firm cost of what a good standard dog would cost.
The phone rang off the hook with people with dollar signs in their eyes who most of the time offered half the asking price.
The last vet bill we had was the price to have her fixed before giving her to the in-laws for nothing.
The point being is you can neuter a dog to prevent weakened blood lines and inferior standards but you can't do that with a discus.

[fullmonti]

Sigh. This is just another iteration of the "What to do with unwanted Discus" thread.

Those that cannot see or understand what breeding standards bring to the table, and the VALUE of those standards, will NEVER see what breeding standards bring to the table. To them, a pet is a pet... fish, dog, cat, hamster, etc. All are equal in their eyes. There is no "better".

It is like the current pseudo-intellectual social engineering game being played out in the educational community whereby all children are deemed "superior" with none out-performing the others. Sort of like a nation wide version of Lake Woebegone. Of course, this is utter nonsense... humans are like any other animal, some perform various tasks better than others. This aggravates the crap out of the equivalency crowd, but you can't fool Mother Nature.

Tom

I definitely do understand & do appreciate what breeding has done to improve Discus! I do not think all children are superior! Yes this is a continuation of the what to do with unwanted Discus thread, to me at least. I never did get my question answered there so I thought I would try a different tack. People & all animals are different, some are better at some things than others. So why when there are so many different qualities to look at, why can there only be one set of qualities worth while? Do all the other count for nothing?

I know I must seem to be a big pain in the *** to some of you. But I really am trying to get a question answered & a point made. There have been some very nice & helpful people that have joined in on this conversation & I thank you for it. I hope it will go on a bit more. But if the people I'm talking about think this has gone on long enough please PM me & we'll have a short conversation about why & that will be that.

[cjr8420]

I definitely do understand & do appreciate what breeding has done to improve Discus! I do not think all children are superior! Yes this is a continuation of the what to do with unwanted Discus thread, to me at least. I never did get my question answered there so I thought I would try a different tack. People & all animals are different, some are better at some things than others. So why when there are so many different qualities to look at, why can there only be one set of qualities worth while? Do all the other count for nothing?

I know I must seem to be a big pain in the *** to some of you. But I really am trying to get a question answered & a point made. There have been some very nice & helpful people that have joined in on this conversation & I thank you for it. I hope it will go on a bit more. But if the people I'm talking about think this has gone on long enough please PM me & we'll have a short conversation about why & that will be that.
i dont ride my discus i look at them so i think quality would be based on what they look like what do u do with your discus other than look at them to make a need for another quality other than looks ?

[Skip]

So why when there are so many different qualities to look at, why can there only be one set of qualities worth while? Do all the other count for nothing?

I know I must seem to be a big pain in the *** to some of you.

the standards for discus are an international standard..

and admitting you have a problem is the first step of 12

[fullmonti]

i dont ride my discus i look at them so i think quality would be based on what they look like what do u do with your discus other than look at them to make a need for another quality other than looks ?

I just have one display tank. I wont be breeding, just watching.

[fullmonti]

the standards for discus are an international standard..

and admitting you have a problem is the first step of 12

I acknowledged I may be a pain to some, not that I thought I have a problem. Clever as always though. No image to go with?

[Skip]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/12/30/129067162461524978.jpg

[Skip]

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/1202/twelve-step-recovery-9834555-demotivational-posters-1330132422.jpg

[Cevoe]

In my opinion, all the others account for nothing.
There are not many qualities to look at but there is the quality of the few things that make up a good discus.
There is one good shape, one good type of eye to body ratio, one good strain pattern, etc.
These points are all spelled out in the university section and in many books.
With the cost of discus being what they are and what it takes to do it right being what it is, I think it's fair to say that it would be easy to cost 100 gallons of mature discus fish at approximately $1,000.00 on the low side and $2,000.00 on the high side.
To do it right takes quite a bit of time with changing the water, feeding them and cleaning the tanks.
I spend a ton of time in front of my tanks and nothing pisses me off more than seeing swimming footballs that I bought when I didn't know any better.
Ultimately, you can spend however much you want on whatever type quality discus you want.
Just do everybody a favor and don't breed them.

[fullmonti]

I hate to post in this thread because the purpose of DU is very clear and easy to understand, but I wanted to point out that your bit about the horses is incorrect...the horse all had different jobs, that is why you need different horses...in fish they really only have one job...that is to swim around and look pretty. Apples to oranges.

-john

John


I have never seen so many so sure they are right & any other view is wrong. Even when i am sure my opinion of a thing is correct I always acknowledge others opinions have merit, I just don't happen to agree.


Between this post, saying basically there is only one opinion as to what looks pretty swimming around & Cevoe's post saying all the other account for nothing. I think we are done. Unless some one has something more to offer or ask I don't know what to say.

Jim

[Skip]

Jim..

i believe what you are saying..

there is a difference between OPINION of Quality and STANDARDS of Quality.. is this correct..

i do believe there is a difference..

[fullmonti]

I think standards of quality is nothing more than a considered opinion of some ones of what quality is or should be.

Just because it is the current standard does not make it the be all end all. It is just what is thought to be best by some right now.

[cjr8420]

what other qualities are u wanting added to the standard list?or what do u think quality should be

[Skip]

I think standards of quality is nothing more than a considered opinion of some ones of what quality is or should be.

Just because it is the current standard does not make it the be all end all. It is just what is thought to be best by some right now.

as an engineer..i have to disagree..

standards are needed as baseline..
if homes, cars, & buildings were built by opinions instead of standards.. then quality of construction would drop.. no?!?

either way.. your opinion is duly noted :)

[Northwoods Discus]

Standards are developed not by individuals, but by a group, they are agreed on by the developing group and accepted by the members of the group. To change standards it usually involves a vote by members of the organization. If you don't have a standard to compare individuals to then you are back to arbitrary opinion.

[Trevor W]

The way I look at the DU section is this:
If you want to (for whatever reason) post and see what your fish may score in regards to the judging standards then by all means go right ahead but just remember that you asked for an evaluation, and if you could careless and just enjoy keeping healthy average/above average fish or are comfortable knowing that your fish has had the best possible care provided to reach its maximum potential then great! Its all a matter of choice but I do believe that a standard to whatever degree is always a good thing to deture people from keeping unhealthy fish with deformities or traits that may hinder the life of the fish and future generations of that specific type of fish and simply to promote a good basis to personally judge what a healthy average or above average fish should look like, so that you have something to reference when purchasing fish. I DO NOT believe that the DU section is saying that because you submit a fish and it has some scoring flaws or recieves an average score, that this fish is terrible and you should be ashamed to keep it and consider culling it lol Also another point to note is that not all quality discus are show grade, in saying this I am not stating that the non-show quality fish are not nice discus or quality discus, just that people should take the DU section for what it is and not read too much into it. Its not as simple as show grade fish are all there is and everything else is garbage. But there is a definate difference between an average or above average fish, show quality fish, and "culls" or fish that display deformities or life hindering traits that do not work to better the quality of stock but actually do the opposite and degrade the quality of stock if not held to some reasonable standard apart from judging like in the DU section or shows which is an entirely different thing altogether. Sorry for the long post, I wont even get into the "Normal" vs bulldog type because that is a whole different can of worms that is very often strongly debated and I dont have the time to get into my personal view on it. But there is a difference between missing fins, short gill plates, ect.... and this is what I feel needs to be defined to people regarding this topic

Trevor

*This is just my person view on the subject at hand and is not to be taken as an "expert" opinion or the "be all and end all" opinions on this topic*

[Skip]

Trevor out of nowhere with a post.. Well said sir..

[JenTN]

My take was that the university was a nice, free way to have your fish sort of "pre-judged" without bringing them to a show. I will eventually love to have an expert point out the flaws in my stock to show me what I need to be honing in on for furthering the line. There are certain things you need to continue and certain things you want to breed out. I don't want to throw two random fish together to breed. JMO.

[Skip]

DU helps me look at fish differently..

before.. i use to just see a DISCUS>.

now..

it has made me a discus snob, for what i want and don't want..

CAN"T WAIT FOR NADA!!!!!!!!

[fullmonti]

what other qualities are u wanting added to the standard list?or what do u think quality should be

It's not that I want to add any thing. Or that I want to take any thing away. But I will try to explain a different way.

Lets say you have brood of PBs. They all have the same genetics, shape the works. You know how the pattern on some is even front to back & on some the pattern will fade out in the back or the front. I don't know which is spelled out in the quality standards as the proper pattern but I'm sure it is. Any way I have seen people say they prefer each one over the other. Other than if more people prefer one more than the other & there for you can get a few more bucks for that one. I don't see where one is actually a better fish, just different. Yet it is this kind of distinctions that make one fish good quality & other poor quality. I hope if that isn't the best example you at least get what i"m trying to get across & can fill in your own example.

I am not in favor of accepting second best or mediocrity. If you can afford the very best go for it! I'm saying there is & must be more than one view of what is pretty swimming around in a tank. I'm saying could we not treat the quality standards as that which shall not be questioned. Can we leave room for the possibility that different people have different ideas of what is beautiful & that is OK & valid.

And thank you for asking

[strawberryblonde]

I think standards of quality is nothing more than a considered opinion of some ones of what quality is or should be.

Just because it is the current standard does not make it the be all end all. It is just what is thought to be best by some right now.

Hi Jim,

I don't understand why you are getting wrapped around the axle with this.

Are there judging standards for show quality Discus? Yes.

Is someone insisting that you only purchase show quality discus? No.

No one here is going to give you an opinion on the quality and/or health of your personal discus unless you ask for it. And yes, some do ask because they are concerned about health, concerned about quality, etc.

If you're curious about where the quality standards stem from, head to the Amazonia, stick your head underwater and take a look at the discus you find there. Discus in the wild survive due to natural selection and the general fitness of the fish itself.

Putting shape, eye size, etc aside for a moment, you'll also notice that these forums, as well as others, advise purchasing groups of discus. The reason for that can also be found in nature. Discus school together for safety, and have grown into a very social animal. They may be able to survive in your tank in singles, pairs or a trio, but till you add a bunch more you won't notice just how uncomfortable they are as singles. You'll also notice that in the wild, the singles very quickly become a meal for predators.

For my own personal tank, I knew that I only had room in my house for one fairly large tank (footprint had to be no longer than 48"). I also knew that I wanted Discus in that tank. At the point where I was ready to buy my discus, I wanted to purchase good quality discus. Not show quality discus since I don't plan to show them...ever. Just nice looking fish in a rainbow of colors that I could enjoy in my home.

For that reason I read these forums and learned about quality in discus. I figured if I was spending $60 per fish, I was going to get ones with the best possible chance of living a long life AND ones who would look pretty!

To each his own, so long as you aren't interested in breeding and selling discus, buy what you like best. Simple as that.

[fullmonti]

as an engineer..i have to disagree..

standards are needed as baseline..
if homes, cars, & buildings were built by opinions instead of standards.. then quality of construction would drop.. no?!?

either way.. your opinion is duly noted :)


I would agree the building industry needs standards! They are needed to insure the buildings don't fall down. They are not needed to say what they should look like. Although I have seen some buildings that maybe could have used some of those standards.

[dprais1]

I've bought discuss from three breeders. Two were great, Epic Discus in chicaago and Josie in chicago. The third I was not happy with, A lot of peppering and really poor shape...but very healthy. Oh and those two with the peppering and poor shape cost me MORE than the quality ones I got from Josie and Epic.

It almost comes down to;
1. is the discus considered quality by commonly accepted standards(such as on DU)
2. do you personally like the fish for your own reasons

If it is for reason 2 then breeding should be out of the question because your customers will expect you to breed for reason 1 and that's dishonest. Unless of course you were to tell them up fron "hey this discus is considerd poor quality but I really like all the black peppering."

And then price them accordingly to the laws of supply and demand(and maybe a little ethics tossed in for good measure), say maybe $5.00 for a 4" fish.

[fullmonti]

Hi Jim,

I don't understand why you are getting wrapped around the axle with this.

Are there judging standards for show quality Discus? Yes.

Is someone insisting that you only purchase show quality discus? No.

No one here is going to give you an opinion on the quality and/or health of your personal discus unless you ask for it. And yes, some do ask because they are concerned about health, concerned about quality, etc.

If you're curious about where the quality standards stem from, head to the Amazonia, stick your head underwater and take a look at the discus you find there. Discus in the wild survive due to natural selection and the general fitness of the fish itself.

Putting shape, eye size, etc aside for a moment, you'll also notice that these forums, as well as others, advise purchasing groups of discus. The reason for that can also be found in nature. Discus school together for safety, and have grown into a very social animal. They may be able to survive in your tank in singles, pairs or a trio, but till you add a bunch more you won't notice just how uncomfortable they are as singles. You'll also notice that in the wild, the singles very quickly become a meal for predators.

For my own personal tank, I knew that I only had room in my house for one fairly large tank (footprint had to be no longer than 48"). I also knew that I wanted Discus in that tank. At the point where I was ready to buy my discus, I wanted to purchase good quality discus. Not show quality discus since I don't plan to show them...ever. Just nice looking fish in a rainbow of colors that I could enjoy in my home.

For that reason I read these forums and learned about quality in discus. I figured if I was spending $60 per fish, I was going to get ones with the best possible chance of living a long life AND ones who would look pretty!

To each his own, so long as you aren't interested in breeding and selling discus, buy what you like best. Simple as that.

I am in the same boat. I only have room for the one large tank. I do plan on getting more than the four. I am studying what different types are out there to make a careful choice because I only have room for 7 or 8.

My axle wrapping started with intolerant statements like all of those should be done away with. Now I'm just trying to understand where that comes from & get people to have more acceptance of others opinions.

Jim

[Skip]

i know what this is all about..

no Jim..

you can not enter your BULLDOG Discus in any classifications.. there are STANDARDS :) :)

[magewynd]

You can live in your bubble and I can live in mine and everyone else can live in theirs. I don't think someone should criticize someone else if they wish to increase their knowledge or improve their bubble and then try to disguise it as an opinion. If you are not breeding your opinion is not valid as to how or what I breed for or what I choose to keep, cull or sell. You can choose to buy my fish or not.If I have a breeding intention, plan or goal and you are not breeding or have no intentions of breeding why is your opinion valid to what I wish to accomplish.

I don't walk in your shoes. I walk in mine. If I don't like the way they look or feel a I sure as heck am going to try to improve or remedy that situation for me. You may not like what I am wearing, but I'm not wearing yours. This is my opinion. You don't have to agree, and yes there is some criticism.
It's not that I want to add any thing. Or that I want to take any thing away. But I will try to explain a different way.
Can we leave room for the possibility that different people have different ideas of what is beautiful & that is OK & valid.

And thank you for asking

[Skip]

I don't walk in your shoes. I walk in mine. If I don't like the way they look or feel a I sure as heck am going to try to improve or remedy that situation for me. You may not like what I am wearing, but I'm not wearing yours. This is my opinion. You don't have to agree, and yes there is some criticism.

are these songs lyrics?!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEV58ztuihs

[Trevor W]

I'm sorry but I am still getting the confusing impression that people are tending to confuse the DU section with something that it not neccesarily is, it to me, is just a section regarding "show grading" and what is considered "conformation" it (to me) is not about saying a pigeon blood with a different type of pattern is inferior to a pigeon blood with a different type of pattern. (sorry if I am mis understanding your example) It is also to me just simply allowing a person to see what "judges" in a discus show are looking for as far as desired traits and lack of "flaws" in a strain, to me thats it thats all. As far as what you desire or prefere or choose to say is attractive to YOUR eye, well thats entirely up to you. They are not trying to tell you that because you have a specific type with a specific "SHOW FLAW" that this fish is not a quality discus or that you shouldn't think this fish is nice. The best way to look at quality in my own eyes, is to simply allow them to grow to the very best that they can genetically achieve providing them with the very best care. Its all a matter of opinion I just think that the line between what the DU is and is not is becoming blurred. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and if you feel that someone has said that you are wrong and that fish is not beautiful well thats a whole different issue and you can't get bothered by this. Just be confident with your own educated opinion and enjoy your fish and if you are ever curious to what a certain fish in your collection may score in a show setting than feel free to post it for sh*ts and giggles. As for where the standards of what a 10/10 show quality discus is well that has been developed over many many years in this hobby. And by many experts throught the years and NO I am not one of them and NO I do not know exactly how these standards have been developed, but if I was a betting man I would say that over-all there are general flaws or points regarding shape and condition that relates to all strains of discus and then there is the strain specific flaws and points which would pertain to the strain such as colour and pattern and this comes from what that strain was actually devloped for.

Trevor

[fullmonti]

Northwoods Discus & Trevor W

Really good posts!

And many others too!

And Warlock has found me out!

Bulldogs Rule!!!!!!!

[Northwoods Discus]

Start the bulldog discus association, get some members and write a standard. There ya go.

[Skip]

http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg51/wllm2007/IMG_2910.jpg.. <<--- Quality?!?!

[fullmonti]

I'm sure to some one it is. Maybe a little to far down the bulldog trail for me, but thats OK.

[Trevor W]

I see this thread has evolved to a more underlying issue, and that is the widely debated world of "normal" discus vs bulldog extreme discus. I hope that the DU portion of this thread has been clarified and with that I would suggest that perhaps you start a thread about Standard Discus vs Bulldog extreme types and let the war begin lol I have my opinion and you will have yours so I am comfortable with that and don't care to try and change yours. I encourage you to like what you want and enjoy this wonderful hobby! On this note I'm out!!! anyone can feel free to PM me anytime they want always up for a good discussion and I am always eager to learn.

Take care,

Trevor

[Skip]

later trevor :)

[Trevor W]

later trevor :)

Later Skip:)

[fullmonti]

I see this thread has evolved to a more underlying issue, and that is the widely debated world of "normal" discus vs bulldog extreme discus. I hope that the DU portion of this thread has been clarified and with that I would suggest that perhaps you start a thread about Standard Discus vs Bulldog extreme types and let the war begin lol I have my opinion and you will have yours so I am comfortable with that and don't care to try and change yours. I encourage you to like what you want and enjoy this wonderful hobby! On this note I'm out!!! anyone can feel free to PM me anytime they want always up for a good discussion and I am always eager to learn.

Take care,

Trevor

VERY WELL PUT

I was just about to say I think every one is pretty well intrenched in their positions, but good points have been mad all around. Yes I do have a bit better idea of where all this is coming from, not all I hoped for but still something.

I really didn't mean to say the DU wasn't worthwhile, it just seemed a good place to talk about what quality was & you can't do that there so thats how it was tied in.

Also didn't want this to be about Bulldogs either. That would be way to big a can O worms.

Jim

[fullmonti]

Standards are developed not by individuals, but by a group, they are agreed on by the developing group and accepted by the members of the group. To change standards it usually involves a vote by members of the organization. If you don't have a standard to compare individuals to then you are back to arbitrary opinion.

I have been thinking about what all has been said her, particularly this post. I thought this was a very good take on standards. It gave me a explanation as to why some have such strong feelings about & reactions to things that get too far out of line with the Discus standards. These feelings come from the believe & knowledge that the standers where made over time by a group of well respected experts. There for they should be observed & respected. Not trying to speak for others, just what seemed logical to me. Anyway all of that is all well and good.

All well and good to a point. If you can stand one more observation/example of what I mean I'll try to be brief & respectful. Remember I said, could we not treat the standards as that which shall not be questioned & standards are just what is thought best right now. Let me say up front, I am Not trying to compare people to fish or something bad to something good! I am trying to say something about standards in general. Also I'm not a historian so details & dates may be off, it's the concept I'm going for. A couple hundred years ago in China the long accepted standard for beauty in women was to have tiny feet (they would be bound as children which would basically cripple them for life) . I imagine this came about over time by consensus (at least by the men) I'm pretty sure if we could go back & ask they would have be absolutely sure this was the way it should be. Obviously this had some pretty serious downsides for the women & that is no longer the standard.

Standards are good to have, for many of the reasons given. If they weren't they wouldn't be every were for so many things. Standards can be just like laws & policies that lag behind technology. They should be able to be questioned, examined & challenged without going ballistic. Long ago I ask some one what the difference between conservatives & liberals was. They said the rate they accept change. I'm guessing I'm a liberal in that respect.

A personal request, please try to say I don't care for those my self. Or if that doesn't seem to say it for you, I hate those is OK. Please try not to say something like they should all be done away with, or should all be killed. If I have come across as yet another new comer know it all it was not intentional.

As always Thanks & hope you will add what ever you think to this thought.
Jim

I should have added somewhere. There are many views of what beauty is, standards don't make a particular view neccessarily correct just more formalized.