Several beginner questions

[schomin]

Hi I've posted here before but I finally got into a 55 instead of a 30 and have 6 discus. It's a planted tank which I know many will warn against but the extra effort is part of the fun for me.

My first question is involving the filter. I have a fluval 405 canister and I have a sponge on the intake as well as the sponges and other bio media on the inside. Does anyone else with a similar filter use other media they would recommend?

My other question is about co2 injection. I've been injecting co2 for months now and have a co2 controller to keep ph consistent which I hear is the most important part for discus. Does any one else inject co2 in a planted discus tank? I know a lot don't because of the ph swings but mine doesn't swing due to the co2 controller. Are there other issues I should worry about? I currently have an air stone in the water as well to insure o2 content. This is probably a little counterproductive though because of the co2 right?

I've noticed for the planted discus tank its all about balance. I've found that its a very delicate balance that is taking me time to dial in. For instance if the lights are on too long the discus get stressed but if they aren't on long enough the plants start to wither.

Anyway just looking for some advice from someone who has possibly had success with a similar setup. Thanks for putting up with my newb questions.

Andrew

[Skip]

what size discus do you have? post pics

[schomin]

Sorry I should have mentioned that. There not that big maybe ranging from 2.5-3.5 in. There not the greatest quality from what I seen in here but they are my first discus.

Here are some pictures. Sorry about the streaky glass.

73282
73283

[tannin]

Hi. In a lot of ways you are the same situation as me. 6 young discus etc... The main difference appears to be the CO2 injection. I just wanted to ask why you feel it is necessary, as my plants seem to be growing well without it, and all I add is some no-phosphate nutrient tablets poked into the gravel once a week.

Also, I probably have my lights on for too long each day at the moment. What signs of stress do you see in your discus when the lights are on too long?

[schomin]

Well I've tried without co2 before and they plants never seemed to do very well. Maybe because of the water changes. I'm not sure. The reason people seem to worry is the inconsistency due to the co2 injection but my co2 levels are constant so it seems this would get rid of the issue.

With the lights issue not all but some of the fish were hiding a lot, darker in color, top and bottom fin were pulled in majority of the time, and weren't eating. These are the signs I've seen when my fish are stressed. It's not necessarily about keeping the lights on less but getting the fish accustom to the longer times and brighter lights needed for the plants. So I dropped lighting times and slowing worked them back up.

[Chicago Discus]

You can do it but you need to make a few changes
1, Take out about 80% of that substrate.
2, Design your tank so you have lights that are more like spot lights with some of the tank getting more light than the other.
3, If your going to use C02 then you need to have a balance in the tank so your not fighting the PH and oxegen swings.
4, you still need to maintain the water quality so that your discus will grow properly they seem a little small to me to be in a planted tank. Try to start off with bulbs they tend to grow better with the water changes.
5, changing the water daily with fresh quality water very important , I would age and aerate the hell out of the water before putting it in the tank.
6, keep it consistant and you should be fine
7, this is just my opinion on the matter and I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination.

Hope this helps ............Josie
Oh and welcome to Simply Discus

[schomin]

You can do it but you need to make a few changes
1, Take out about 80% of that substrate.
2, Design your tank so you have lights that are more like spot lights with some of the tank getting more light than the other.
3, If your going to use C02 then you need to have a balance in the tank so your not fighting the PH and oxegen swings.
4, you still need to maintain the water quality so that your discus will grow properly they seem a little small to me to be in a planted tank. Try to start off with bulbs they tend to grow better with the water changes.
5, changing the water daily with fresh quality water very important , I would age and aerate the hell out of the water before putting it in the tank.
6, keep it consistant and you should be fine
7, this is just my opinion on the matter and I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination.

Hope this helps ............Josie
Oh and welcome to Simply Discus

Josie

That's actually very helpful and confirms what I was thinking. The substrate is something I have been struggling with and have been meaning to lower but just have been lazy about it. With the co2 levels I'm almost positive they are consistent as the ph always goes back to 6.8 when I use to turn co2 off at night so know that I can control it constantly that should not be an issue. Oxygen on the other hand is something I have been worried about I have an oxygen test kit and it is on the edge of what the kit says is low. That's when I started using the air stone. Would that help keep the o2 high or am I just doing that for nothing? I am currently aging. I have a 29gal with its own filter and heater I use for aging and agitating. I think this gets the job done pretty good and makes pumping into my 55 easy during water changes.

[tannin]

If you don't mind the trickling sound, keeping your canister filter outlet above water level has always provided enough surface disturbance to avoid a film buildup, and keep the water oxygenated, for me.

Also, I keep most of my substrate thin, and only have it deeper in terraced areas where I want to grow plants. We got sidetracked into this discussion in a thread of mine recently. It allows me to easily vacuum during water changes.

[schomin]

The only problem with the outlet above water is that I'm pretty sure that would degas a lot of the co2. My co2 diffuser is inline at the outlet.

I'll probably get the substrate toned down here this week just have to find the time.

[wavesurfer]

The only problem with the outlet above water is that I'm pretty sure that would degas a lot of the co2. My co2 diffuser is inline at the outlet.

I'll probably get the substrate toned down here this week just have to find the time.
I have my outlet (EHEIM canister filter) just slightly below the water level; a balance between keeping the CO2 in (I pump CO2 directly into the inlet) while providing sufficient surface agitation for good oxygen levels.

As for the removal of the substrates, just a reminder to be very careful with it as the disturbance to the substrates may cause a temporary spike in undesirable water parameters. You may wish to move your discus out first before the removal/toning down.

I'm a beginner in discus too and like yours, having them in a planted tank. Hope we will be able to share our experiences here together. :)

[Orange Crush]

Your plants do not look healthy at all. Are you giving them fertalizers?
Another thing to keep in mind is that young discus, like you have, need to be fed many times per day and need 1-2 large daily water changes so they can grow and be healthy. Problem is that means that there will not be enough nitAtes in the water for the plants. It is really hard to do discus with plants because they both have different needs to be healthy. If the discus are more important to you than the plants you should get rid of the plants and stop using CO2 until your discus are 5" and you have a better handle on how to raise them.

[schomin]

Your plants do not look healthy at all. Are you giving them fertalizers?
Another thing to keep in mind is that young discus, like you have, need to be fed many times per day and need 1-2 large daily water changes so they can grow and be healthy. Problem is that means that there will not be enough nitAtes in the water for the plants. It is really hard to do discus with plants because they both have different needs to be healthy. If the discus are more important to you than the plants you should get rid of the plants and stop using CO2 until your discus are 5" and you have a better handle on how to raise them.

Yeah thats kind of why I was trying to get a hold of someone else who may be trying the same thing. The plants have been going down hill ever since I moved them over from the 30gal. Currently I am not fertilizing because I wasn't sure how that would effect the water. The nitrates thing raises another point. As Josie said though the bulb plants are doing pretty good that I currently have in that tank. Neither the Discus nor the plants are more important to me, but I definitely see what your saying and I know this isn't the right way to be doing thing its just hard with all the money I've sunk into both plants and discus to make a choice right now. I currently have my 30gal BB and empty for aging water right now I'm considering trading my smaller discus for a breeding pair with someone locally that has already said they would and putting them in their maybe. Then like you said maybe I can start to understand each separately first before I get into doing both in the same tank.


I have my outlet (EHEIM canister filter) just slightly below the water level; a balance between keeping the CO2 in (I pump CO2 directly into the inlet) while providing sufficient surface agitation for good oxygen levels.

As for the removal of the substrates, just a reminder to be very careful with it as the disturbance to the substrates may cause a temporary spike in undesirable water parameters. You may wish to move your discus out first before the removal/toning down.

I'm a beginner in discus too and like yours, having them in a planted tank. Hope we will be able to share our experiences here together.

That actually exactly what I am doing currently with my output. It seems to be working fine with the CO2 and agitating water at the same time.

I probably would move the fish I've already had issues with that type of thing after cleaning my filter and the water got nasty.

Like you said hopefully we can learn some things together here.

[schomin]

I have my outlet (EHEIM canister filter) just slightly below the water level; a balance between keeping the CO2 in (I pump CO2 directly into the inlet) while providing sufficient surface agitation for good oxygen levels.

As for the removal of the substrates, just a reminder to be very careful with it as the disturbance to the substrates may cause a temporary spike in undesirable water parameters. You may wish to move your discus out first before the removal/toning down.

I'm a beginner in discus too and like yours, having them in a planted tank. Hope we will be able to share our experiences here together. :)

I probably will create a new topic for this because its a different conversation but do you use fertilizer? I was looking at getting some ferts from Rex Grigg but didn't know if I should be under dosing to limit nitrates or what.

[Orange Crush]

I was looking at getting some ferts from Rex Grigg but didn't know if I should be under dosing to limit nitrates or what.
Do not underdose your ferts (don't overdose either though) because your tank will already have much less nitrAtes then most aquariums from all the water changes you need to do for the discus and a normal dose of ferts will not create too much for them. Just test your water regularly to make sure your nitrAtes stay <5 ppm and discus will be happy.
This is why it is best to master taking care of discus 1st or plants 1st before trying to figure out how to keep them together in the same tank because there is a VERY small overlap in amount of lights/ferts/water quality where both plants and discus can coexist successfully.

[schomin]

Do not underdose your ferts (don't overdose either though) because your tank will already have much less nitrAtes then most aquariums from all the water changes you need to do for the discus and a normal dose of ferts will not create too much for them. Just test your water regularly to make sure your nitrAtes stay <5 ppm and discus will be happy.
This is why it is best to master taking care of discus 1st or plants 1st before trying to figure out how to keep them together in the same tank because there is a VERY small overlap in amount of lights/ferts/water quality where both plants and discus can coexist successfully.

I totally agree with you. Its a very fine line between the environments where both can live happily. Thanks for your suggestions. I'm going to think about it this weekend and decide if I'm going to separate or not. Thanks for the advice about the ferts too. I didn't think the normal doses would rase the nitrates too high as on his dosing page it was already pretty low but just wanted to make sure.

Andrew

[DiscusDrew]

The whole situation becomes much much simpler when the discus are older... I mean we haven't even brought up the problem of water temp and most of us would say it needs to be around 86 for your juvenile discus which your plants will most likely not tolerate. I hope you have the best of luck if you continue course, but I like your idea of either getting adult discus which will be more tolerant. I love raising my guys from juveniles and you learn a lot but if you desire success with both plants and discus then something has to give for best results for either of them.