A newcomers take on selective breeding, culling and standards

[fullmonti]

In hindsight I think much of the confusion and surprise I had about these subjects came from my near total lack of exposure to the world of breeding and showing animals. Like most that have a fish tank in their living room, I think of my fish as pets.

Like natural selection when a naturally occurring genetic variation that offers an advantage happens, it is passed on to the offspring. Selective breeding works in the same way, only the breeder decides which genetic variation is desirable and which are unacceptable. Fish judged unsatisfactory are culled (killed) in the process, regrettably many make jokes about the varied and creative ways the culling is carried out. There are different reasons a fish may be culled. Some for health concerns, some the breeder has an objective, a particular color, pattern, or shape. If a fish is to far from the objective they are culled. It helped me to think of it like this, breeders do not think of their Discus as pets. It seems more like a business or passion or possibly an expression of their artist vision.

Discus Standards, standards are good to have and every where. I had always thought of them as being more about practical things like building codes an safety standards for cars. These are constantly being evaluated & up dated. I had never run into a standard for the way a thing looks, especially a living thing. Much to my surprise many many breeders & serious discus people look on the discus standards as absolute! These standards are not only viewed as correct, but any thing else is viewed as wrong. Some say if a type of discus get to far from the standards they shouldn't even be allowed to exsist. The attitude there can only be one way a thing can look or be done, and the believe that any standard is absolute and unchanging has been most perplexing to me. I eventually came to think of this as a matter of believe period. As such comparing this thought process to other things or pointing out inconsistencies seems to matter not.

My hope for these subjects and this hobby is that my newcomer experience and conclusions will help others if they come to this hobby and find some of the same things surprising. Ask them to remember the long time members have dealt with all this many times and some have more patients than other. Also ask the people who have put in the years of effort and are entirely responsible for creating all the beautiful varieties of Discus we have, to lighten up a little. And remember, possibly if it wasn't for all the people that buy Discus as pets the only thing the breeders would have to do with all those beautiful fish would be trade them with other breeders.

Think it would be great if this could become or be part of a sticky, so the long time members wouldn't have to address these issues for the newcomers over and over.

I do not mean this to be considered by anyone as the the only take on these things, just one newcomers view of them. Your take or comments welcome.

Sincerely
Jim

[dprais1]

Jim,

Your posts keep going...and going...and going....

On one of the threads you started Al wrote something about the love of discus having a lot to do with the images we see of 'show grade' or ideal discus. maybe to educate everyone and illustrate the point we need some side-by-side pics of healthy, high quality discus and some 'culls.' In all fairness they would need to be of the same strain and a similiar age.

I know a lot of discus keepers hold on to poor quality fish for sentimental reasons and I think they could provide some pics of "good" vs "bad."

I find it hard to judge quality and this might help me.

I do get your point. I have a discus I think is great, VERY round and thick. My wife prefers another discus in my tank, same size, because that one is 'skinny' (not really skinny but thinner than the other). she says when she thinks of discus that is her vision.

[Orange Crush]

....maybe to educate everyone and illustrate the point we need some side-by-side pics of healthy, high quality discus and some 'culls.' In all fairness they would need to be of the same strain and a similiar age.
Brilliant suggestion!

[dprais1]

Brilliant suggestion!

Broken watch, correct time.

[Orange Crush]

Broken watch, correct time.
lol
No one would have known that though, you just outed yourself.

[dprais1]

.............only for 12 hours.

[Orange Crush]

.............only for 12 hours.
I suppose it is better to be right twice a day than not at all.

[Chicago Discus]

You said breeders do not think of their Discus as pets well I'm a breeder and I can tell you that in my experience they are all my pets and I treat them no different than I do my own pets. My take on culling and making jokes or even humor is like when you hear of first responders joking and laughing at a scene of an accident its something very uncomfortable that they have to do and humor is the way they cope. But just because you see someone joking don't think that it doesn't bother them. I have a whole show Tank full of Discus that some would find unflattering I call this tank my short bus tank because I have some stunted bad shape wrong color funky fins and strange looking discus that you wouldn't want in a show tank but Im not breeding them or selling them to anyone..........Josie

[fullmonti]

Thanks Josie

I have no plan to bring this up again. Was hoping for good alternative view points like yours & suggestions like dprais1's

[Skip]

Thanks Josie

I have no plan to bring this up again. Was hoping for good alternative view points like yours & suggestions like dprais1's

i will call the bluff!!!

$30! i am in

[Eddie]

You said breeders do not think of their Discus as pets well I'm a breeder and I can tell you that in my experience they are all my pets and I treat them no different than I do my own pets. My take on culling and making jokes or even humor is like when you hear of first responders joking and laughing at a scene of an accident its something very uncomfortable that they have to do and humor is the way they cope. But just because you see someone joking don't think that it doesn't bother them. I have a whole show Tank full of Discus that some would find unflattering I call this tank my short bus tank because I have some stunted bad shape wrong color funky fins and strange looking discus that you wouldn't want in a show tank but Im not breeding them or selling them to anyone..........Josie

Short bus tank :)

[fullmonti]

i will call the bluff!!!

$30! i am in

You have the floor.

[fullmonti]

Eddie, love your avatar fish.

[Skip]

You have the floor.

the bluff.. was that you would never bring this up again.. lol

[fullmonti]

This thread is it for me. $30 not needed.

Like I said, just my take on this for general info to other/future newcomers to Discus. Everyone welcome to give their take.

[dpete9]

I put my culls/ rejects/ belly sliders in a tank with some adults thinking they would get eaten since i couldn't do the dirty dead myself. 2 wks later and the buggers are still alive sliding around the bottom and the adults pay them no attention. I will have to do more culling again as this large batch grows and I can tell who has issues. It's a cruel world for a rejected discus fry.

[JenTN]

Imo, I think you are putting words in too many peoples mouths. You cant even lump all breeders together. Many are just simple hobbyists looking for a challenge. Some may think of pets, others may not. I doubt the large fish farms in Asia do but I could be wrong. Then you have breeders thinking of them as $$$$ and selling anything that is produced that is the worst imo. I am not a breeder, but I have a pair and I will cull heavily and I will not enjoy it. They are my pets let alone the sheer $$$ you tie up in them! If my whole batch is poor quality I will cull the whole batch because it is the responsible thing to do. Peple make jokes because well its probably a coping mechanism to be honest. I joke about the plea not to cull because in nature culling occurs. But in the end it is needed. I suggest reading some old school discus books. I just found one of Dr Axelrods detailing collection trips. I have quite the respect for the hobby knowing a little about where it came from and how hard people worked. Selective breeding allows you to order from many sources by just clicking a paypal button. Just my thoughts as another newbie with a different view. I could put you in touch with a friend whos Dobrerman was not bred properly. He is adorable as can be..but has seizures every day and last year cost more than her yearly mortgages.

[fullmonti]

After much discussion, I understand a lot of the culling is done for well and good reason. Some more is done out of time & resource restraints & is a judgement call. It is still surprising to a newcomer and takes some explaining. The concept of selective breeding, I did say it & the people who put in the effort were entirely responsible for all the beautiful Discus. i do thank them & appreciate their efforts.

The jokes about culling, I never thought about it maybe being a coping mechanism. Seems reasonable, for some of it at least. Some seems no more than to needle the ones that don't understand it. It's still like making jokes about sex or religion in a open forum. Some are bound to think it in poor taste.

The much used, "that is a poor quality fish" and the concept that only one view of what is appealing or quality is right. Take the "what type of Discus are these" thread. The guy ask what kind of Discus is this & some go off on him about crapy quality fish. Yes a good many pointed out he didn't ask if they were good or not. One or two seemed to think getting slapped around a little when your a newcomer is part of the process. THIS is what needs some good calm discussion! Discussion about weather or how one persons view of beauty or quality (or any thing for that matter!!!) no matter how well educated about the Discus standards, is or should be considered more valid than another persons view of what is beauty. I'm not talking about pictures people show of a small 2-3" fish that is beat-up, skinny & sick, that have been in a LFS tank with bad water and food. I'm talking about a healthy active fish who's shape, color, pattern, eyes or what ever you may think unacceptable. I know not every one here thinks that, but a good many do & some are overly eager to let you know why they know better than you what's right. If we could hash that out now, then when the next newbie comes along & ask these same questions you can just give them a link to the answers. That is what I'm trying to do here.

[dprais1]

can we get some pics for the newbies....SHOW them the difference..

----PLEASE

[Skip]

NO! DONT" BUY!
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?46982-What-not-to-buy

YES! DO BUY!
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?82-The-Marketplace

what to look for..
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?33300-Selecting-Discus

[cjr8420]

After much discussion, I understand a lot of the culling is done for well and good reason. Some more is done out of time & resource restraints & is a judgement call. It is still surprising to a newcomer and takes some explaining. The concept of selective breeding, I did say it & the people who put in the effort were entirely responsible for all the beautiful Discus. i do thank them & appreciate their efforts.

The jokes about culling, I never thought about it maybe being a coping mechanism. Seems reasonable, for some of it at least. Some seems no more than to needle the ones that don't understand it. It's still like making jokes about sex or religion in a open forum. Some are bound to think it in poor taste.

The much used, "that is a poor quality fish" and the concept that only one view of what is appealing or quality is right. Take the "what type of Discus are these" thread. The guy ask what kind of Discus is this & some go off on him about crapy quality fish. Yes a good many pointed out he didn't ask if they were good or not. One or two seemed to think getting slapped around a little when your a newcomer is part of the process. THIS is what needs some good calm discussion! Discussion about weather or how one persons view of beauty or quality (or any thing for that matter!!!) no matter how well educated about the Discus standards, is or should be considered more valid than another persons view of what is beauty. I'm not talking about pictures people show of a small 2-3" fish that is beat-up, skinny & sick, that have been in a LFS tank with bad water and food. I'm talking about a healthy active fish who's shape, color, pattern, eyes or what ever you may think unacceptable. I know not every one here thinks that, but a good many do & some are overly eager to let you know why they know better than you what's right. If we could hash that out now, then when the next newbie comes along & ask these same questions you can just give them a link to the answers. That is what I'm trying to do here.
see i told u, u like to just start arguments the dog is dead why are u still beating it

[fullmonti]

Mike, if you think this is fun for me. You are mistaken.