Plant issues in 120 gallon

[Joander123]

So I set up a 120 gallon planted discus tank about a year ago or so, bought five discus, 50 cardinals, 15 corys, and some BN plecos. I ordered plants in decent bulk from a online retailer, and they came in healthy and great. They were growing at an out of control rate and everything was good, someone else had to take care of the tank for about 6 months while I was gone, and they managed to do water changes 2-3x a week and I was available on sporadic occasions to do a bit of other maintenance. Over the past few months though the plants have gone downhill pretty hard, and I'm wondering what changed that made things go poorly?

Only things i can think of are:

- Plecos- I guess not too long after I added the plecos the plants started to go down hill.

- Changing too much water? Maybe there aren't enough nutrients for the plants? It's aged and dechlorinated tap water, not RO

-Lighting? There are two 54w t5 tubes in highly polished reflectors over the water, same lights as it's always been, although maybe a bulb change would help?

-Water flow? There's a return pump and an eheim canister filter, but not a ton of flow


thats about all i can think of... I'm looking to re-scape and plant again, but I want to fix the issue first... any idea what approach I should take, or should I just fix all of the above?

Thanks!

[Lenin]

OK, first thing is plecos, I think you answer that on your own
Water is fine
Lighting, bulbs have to be changed every year
Flow not an issue

[Joander123]

OK, first thing is plecos, I think you answer that on your own
Water is fine
Lighting, bulbs have to be changed every year
Flow not an issue


ok, so you think it's probably just a combination of the plecos and old bulbs.. fair enough... should i get rid of all of them, or keep a few? There are 5 bristle nose and 1 Green Phantom plecos.

just so everyone is aware too they weren't high demand plants, sword plants, anubias, crypts, and java fern.

[Lenin]

all plecos, they're vegetarians.

[DerekFF]

What does "gone down hill" mean? What is the dimensions of the tank?

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[Larry Bugg]

The BN plecos are not the issue. They are Omnivores but the bulk of their diet is vegatable, however they don't typically eat plants. In fact BN are quite often recommended for planted tanks because the don't eat the plants but will eat the algae.

Flow is important in a planted tank but I suspect your flow is the same as it was when the plants were doing well. Improper flow will create dead spots which gives algae a place to take hold.

I would suspect the lighting and nutrients. You are almost at 1 watt per gallon with T5's and this should be just fine for the low light plants you are keeping but as Lenin pointed out the bulbs should be changed out about once a year. They lose intensity as they age and you may not notice it looking different but you have lost light. I would also consider the nutrients. With the low light plants you are keeping you really don't need to be adding daily/weekly dosing of nutrients but they are needed. Sword plants and Crypts are root feeders and you should really be using some kind of root tab with them.

[zchauvin]

The BN plecos are not the issue. They are Omnivores but the bulk of their diet is vegatable, however they don't typically eat plants. In fact BN are quite often recommended for planted tanks because the don't eat the plants but will eat the algae.

Flow is important in a planted tank but I suspect your flow is the same as it was when the plants were doing well. Improper flow will create dead spots which gives algae a place to take hold.

I would suspect the lighting and nutrients. You are almost at 1 watt per gallon with T5's and this should be just fine for the low light plants you are keeping but as Lenin pointed out the bulbs should be changed out about once a year. They lose intensity as they age and you may not notice it looking different but you have lost light. I would also consider the nutrients. With the low light plants you are keeping you really don't need to be adding daily/weekly dosing of nutrients but they are needed. Sword plants and Crypts are root feeders and you should really be using some kind of root tab with them.

+1. Add some kind of fertz to the tank, put in new bulbs and increase the flow by adding a power head or cleaning your filters. Especially using ro water and lots of water changes there's nothing to feed them.

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[DerekFF]

I doubt its a circulation problem. We dont know enough about the tank to make any solid recommendations. Is it a 4ft or 6ft tank? What light brand? What substrate? Lighting period?

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[Wahter]

This is easy to test - remove the BN and see how the plants do. If they recover after about a 1 month, you know they are the guilty party.

IME, some BNs will devour plants while others leave them alone. Some will even rasp on the sides of discus, but others will leave the discus alone.

Hope that helps,


Walter

[Stuewart]

It probably wont be circulation problems. Ive never had circulation problems on any of my planted tanks unless its java moss that Im trying to grow. Itll probably be either the BN or the lighting. It could just be a depletion of nutrients though. Do you dose ferts? If so, are you doing tabs or daily/weekly/monthly liquid dosing? Try doing a good trim on all of your plants that arent looking too good, that usually helps.

[Psionic]

The java fern and anubias should have their rhizomes exposed or they will start to die. The crypts and swords are generally root feeders. You can put a root tab under them or throughout your tank depending on plants. T5 bulbs will start to dim at 6 months. The watt per gallon rule doesn't apply to t5 lights. It is an outdated method when estimating your PAR. Mostly it will go by the depth of your substrate to your lights and what kind of lights and reflectors you have. What temperature of bulbs are you using? Do you use co2 or use fertilizers? What kind of substrate are you using? Co2 isn't really required for your plants. But if you're using a high tech light with no fertz or co2, algae can start to be an issue.

Discus tanks also get frequent and large water changes, so fertilizers don't stay in the water too long. With your tank, you can probably get away with root tabs and Excel. It's just the light that might be the issue.


-Val

[West Ham Utd]

T5 bulbs will start to dim at 6 months


-Val

I'm sorry but I do not agree with this statement.A 54wt T5 is a HO bulb,that needs replacing on a 12-18month cycle(depending on bulb spectrum)The whole idea behind T5 bulbs were that they are more energy effecient & had a longer life than standard T12.Can I ask where you got your info on T5HO only being good for 6 months?Now if it was a T12VHO,I would totally agree...but it isn't

[Psionic]

I'm sorry but I do not agree with this statement.A 54wt T5 is a HO bulb,that needs replacing on a 12-18month cycle(depending on bulb spectrum)The whole idea behind T5 bulbs were that they are more energy effecient & had a longer life than standard T12.Can I ask where you got your info on T5HO only being good for 6 months?Now if it was a T12VHO,I would totally agree...but it isn't

I didn't say they'd only be good for 6 months. I said they'd start to dim. Not by much, but it does happen. That's why at 6 months you'll start to see the black marks on the ends. That starts to indicate that they're at their half life. That's why people ask how long they've had their bulbs. There's a whole section about lighting at the planted tank forums. It's a lot of good info. That's usually the forums where I read/post at. It's great for planted tank info all around from lights to algae. OP, if you need any specific planted tank info, you can start there also. The posters are really nice and they'll help you as much as they can.

They asked for help and I am merely trying to share with them what I know from planted tanks. I don't run many large low tank set ups. Those I use in smaller tanks that are nanos with CFL bulbs. My larger tank is a high tech. But that one runs 4x54 watt bulbs. I also use co2 and an EI dosing schedule with Excel. I know that's not what the OP is running, but I was just trying to help.


-Val

[West Ham Utd]

I apologise for my mis-reading of your post.I just didn't want anyone running T5HO's to think that the bulbs are at the end of their useful life after a 6 month period.

I used to read all the lighting forums I could,back when I kept a reef setup & honestly I think all bulbs start to dim from the first day of use-Metal halides & the various flourescents.I couldn't believe the drop off in useable light intensity from some of the different types of bulbs.It is a balancing act of trying to get the right bulb,in the right spectrum,with the best intensity for the longest period of time & being able to run/replace at a good cost....Now I think I just confused myself.My apologies once again.

[Psionic]

No worries at all :) I did read this in the planted tank forums a couple of says ago. Apparently as time goes by, the spectrum of the bulb will change. But it does the biggest change at 8 months, not 6. That's when plants will not grow the same. Tom Barr said that plants can over time adapt to the light. But who keeps wonky colored lights for long enough for that to happen?


-Val

[West Ham Utd]

Apparently as time goes by, the spectrum of the bulb will change.


-Val
You nailed it.Also the brand of ballast that a bulb is driven by can affect the useable life of a bulb & it's output...not too many what if's in this hobby is there?

[ktm4us6]

First, what was the reason you added so many plecos, (algea out of control), Second, we don't know your substrate, third, what is your nitrate reading's? My guess is when you got the tank back the algae was out of control, so you added all those plecos, and you cleaned the whole tank really good, along with water changes. I have a 480g, with 3 plecos and I will be removing 1 because there not enough algae growing for them and there on the plant's allot more. Plant's need fert's and some nitrate in the water, and as everyone also said bulb life is important. Nitrate reading in a planted tank should be at-least 5ppm otherwise they suffer.

[Psionic]

Plecos also poop a lot. They don't eat up tons of algae. It also depends on what kind you have. Some stuff they don't touch, like bba. I had some nerites in my tank for a little bit. Not enough algae though so a couple died. They went to my planted tank. They'll also eat gsa. Plecos also like driftwood to chew on. I never saw mine mess with my plants. They mostly were on the glass or driftwood.


-Val

[DerekFF]

Aside from the lighting convo going on here the post is dead people. OP hasnt posted in 3 weeks.

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[noved]

I think that everyone is reading a little to much into this. Assuming that since the plants were originally growing well and thriving, they are not high light plants. Yes, lighting is important and you do need to change the bulbs every 12 to 18 months. I usually change mine around the 14-16 month mark. Plecos are definitely not the issue.. especially bristle nose. I had at least one breeding pair and about 20 of their offspring for over a year in one of my planted tanks and I hardly every had to clean it because they did such a good job for me. In fact I have them in all my tanks and they have never damaged a plant.
In my mind the issue is simple. Husbandry. The best planted tanks are so because of meticulous maintenance. Though is was not specified how exactly the OP's plants took a turn for the worst, after 6 months of neglect, I can pretty much guess. All stem plants start great but will eventually get too high. The bottoms start to loose there leaves, brown and look real bad. Its normal and expected. They have to be trimmed regularly. You can replant the tops if you choose or trade or sell them. The bottom of the stem will always grow back though it can take quite some time, especially in low tech tanks. Trimming also causes multiple branching stems to emerge from the mother stem which is why it is important to cut the stems low and early. As more branches emerge, your stem plants will grow slower allowing you longer periods between trimming. More importantly, it also causes the beautiful bushy effect that everybody wants.
Plants such as java ferns and anubias and swords need to be regularly maintained as well. Old leaves need to eventually accumulate algae, or darken or get holes. Again this is normal and happens to everyone. These leaves need to be trimmed off as close to the base as possible without causing damage to it. Again, the sooner the better. Never worry about lost leaves because new ones will always grow back stronger and healthier then before. Energy that the old leaves were using can then be transferred to new leaf growth. Just be aware that it takes time and you must be patient. The beautiful Takashi Amano and Oliver Knott tanks are not always and forever as they appear. They are, like I said, meticulously and constantly maintained.
Lastly, at times you will encounter some chronic and persistent algae such as hair or staghorn. There is much debate on the best way to remove these, but I always keep a bottle of flourish excel on hand and use as directed. Within a couple of weeks my algae problems are gone.

Here is my last tank with about 6 adult Bristle Nose with no problems. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUVKRA70XEI&list=HL1338405210&feature=mh_lolz

Hope this helps.



Aside from the lighting convo going on here the post is dead people. OP hasnt posted in 3 weeks.

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I know this but felt like saying it anyway.

[Jonnywhoop]

guess no plecos for my tank!