Newbie with sick fish. Please help.

[joe1225us]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started.
Got a group of 5 two inch discus from TheFishDen.Net. Three Blue Diamonds and two snake skins. Arrived Friday. Placed in a bare 20 gallon ‘grow out’ tank. One was slightly darker than the others. To various degrees, they are now eating, except that one. That one has clamped fins, dark color and looks starved. Not eating and is hiding. Doing twice daily 50% water changes. Tried beefheart, flakes, dried blackworms, blood worms, and Tetra Color Bits. Any ideas? Not just an eating problem at this point (i think).

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)
All of the above!! Seriously, dark, not eating, clamped fins, ocasional darting, head standing, cloudy eyes

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

None other than salt



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish. 20 gallon with five 2 inch



5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
50% daily


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 84

- municipal water yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
See above

[joe1225us]

74018Here is a picture. Which make him look BETTER than he really is. The flash takes away the cloudyness.

[Skip]

74018Here is a picture. Which make him look BETTER than he really is. The flash takes away the cloudyness.


take it out and CULL>. that is TOO FAR GONE!

damage was done WAY before you got that fish..

what do others look like?

[joe1225us]

Here he is next to his sibiling. Note the diffrence. Should I just isolate him to prevent the other fish from getting sick?74019

[joe1225us]

take it out and CULL>. that is TOO FAR GONE!

damage was done WAY before you got that fish..

what do others look like?

Well one of the Diamonds looked pretty bad. But is now eating heartiley, and swiming around (and bullying the others!). But still has a starved look. This sick one has flashes of looking OK, for a few seconds at a time. Which is why I am wondering if there is anything to be done.

[xxbenjamminxx]

take it out and CULL>. that is TOO FAR GONE!

damage was done WAY before you got that fish..

what do others look like?

+1 to that! Id cull him before he does anymore damage the remaining fish then has been done already.

Good luck and keep an eye on the others for a while.

[joe1225us]

Here he is LAST NIGHT in a brief second of looking normal74021

[TURQ64]

74018Here is a picture. Which make him look BETTER than he really is. The flash takes away the cloudyness.
The fish is pretty well screwed up. 2 options..
1.cull the fish
2.Treat with oxytetracycline @ 200mg/g, cover the tank, as it makes fish skittish..repeat withwc and a redose for 3 days..Acriflavin in combo with the oxytetracline if you have it. Any Oxytetracycline will work; fish,human,cattle,etc. makes for easier aquisition in an emergency..Gary

[joe1225us]

Ok. Took him out and placed him in separate tank. He looked quite normal as he ran from the net. Should I preemptive treat the remaining four fish? Any easily available treatment for him? Sulfa? Salt? Methelyn Blue?

[aalbina]

This is probably going to take a lot of work. One of the cardinal rules for success with discus is to start with good stock. The Fish Den didn't do you any justice in that regard my friend - the sick fish was sick long before you got it and the one behind it appears to be stunted based on the size of it's eyes. This is not to say that they can't be saved and may turn into fish that you like with proper care.

I might separate the sick fish but everyone else is certain to have all the same problems with varying degrees of severity as this guy as they came from the same place. A weaker fish is going to show symptoms first because it's immune system is so compromised it can't fight off whatever ails it. Contact The Fish Den and tell them that one of the fish isn't doing well - they may replace the fish. The best thing you can do for the remaining four is plenty of clean, stable, de-chlorinated water. You want to support their immune systems so they can fight whatever bad @#$$ they might have got from The Fish Den. There no way of knowing what those bad things might be right now because of all the stress associated with shipping and rehoming them. You didn't post any of your water parameters - are you testing for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? What is your pH? Do you age your water? What are you using as a conditioner? Is your tank cycled? All of these things are the parameters that make "quality" water for discus. Ammonia needs to be as close to 0 as possible, same with nitirite. Nitrate should be below 10 ppm.

pH is fine in almost any range as long as as it is consistently within .2 day after day. Often times, with municipal water the pH will change over night once it's out of the tap. The change could be as much as a whole point swing (which is a change of 10 times the acidity or alkalinity!). So 7.2 out of the tap and then 8.2 over night is 10 times more alkaline - and a change that is to big for the long term health of your fish. To test this - draw a glass of water from the tap and test the pH - let it sit on the counter for 12 hours, test again - let it sit for another 12 and test again. If there is a difference between first draw and 12 of over .2 - then you will likely need to age your water. If there is no change from 12 to 24 then you need to age your water for at least 12 hours. If there is still a change from 12 to 24 then you need to age for 24 hours. Aging water means heat and aerate before using it in your water changes. Usually chlorine will be gone after 24 but I would still treat with a water conditioner. Do you know if your water contains chloramines? The city can tell you if they add chloramine.

Good luck - you probably have a long road ahead. Clean, stable water within the parameters I posted above and wait and see.

Adam

[wanderingfish]

stomach seems bloated

[aalbina]

turq64 - Gary, is recommending a broad spectrum antibiotic. Gary knows what he's talking about - I would follow his advice if you want to try and save this fish and help him recover. The Oxytetracycline has proven more effective against resistant bacteria than just tetracycline - so the distinction is important. There is likely more wrong with this fish than bacterial but this is a good choice to help this fish get back on the road to recovery. Bacteria is pretty opportunistic - and will take advantage of a weak fish so getting it under control will only help. Tetracyclines are light sensitive so covering the tank will also help it be more effective. Have you tested the hardness of your water? Softer water will make tetracyclines absorb better so there is more antibiotic in the bloodstream. Hard water will inhibit absorption. (http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa084)

Adam


This is probably going to take a lot of work. One of the cardinal rules for success with discus is to start with good stock. The Fish Den didn't do you any justice in that regard my friend - the sick fish was sick long before you got it and the one behind it appears to be stunted based on the size of it's eyes. This is not to say that they can't be saved and may turn into fish that you like with proper care.

I might separate the sick fish but everyone else is certain to have all the same problems with varying degrees of severity as this guy as they came from the same place. A weaker fish is going to show symptoms first because it's immune system is so compromised it can't fight off whatever ails it. Contact The Fish Den and tell them that one of the fish isn't doing well - they may replace the fish. The best thing you can do for the remaining four is plenty of clean, stable, de-chlorinated water. You want to support their immune systems so they can fight whatever bad @#$$ they might have got from The Fish Den. There no way of knowing what those bad things might be right now because of all the stress associated with shipping and rehoming them. You didn't post any of your water parameters - are you testing for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate? What is your pH? Do you age your water? What are you using as a conditioner? Is your tank cycled? All of these things are the parameters that make "quality" water for discus. Ammonia needs to be as close to 0 as possible, same with nitirite. Nitrate should be below 10 ppm.

pH is fine in almost any range as long as as it is consistently within .2 day after day. Often times, with municipal water the pH will change over night once it's out of the tap. The change could be as much as a whole point swing (which is a change of 10 times the acidity or alkalinity!). So 7.2 out of the tap and then 8.2 over night is 10 times more alkaline - and a change that is to big for the long term health of your fish. To test this - draw a glass of water from the tap and test the pH - let it sit on the counter for 12 hours, test again - let it sit for another 12 and test again. If there is a difference between first draw and 12 of over .2 - then you will likely need to age your water. If there is no change from 12 to 24 then you need to age your water for at least 12 hours. If there is still a change from 12 to 24 then you need to age for 24 hours. Aging water means heat and aerate before using it in your water changes. Usually chlorine will be gone after 24 but I would still treat with a water conditioner. Do you know if your water contains chloramines? The city can tell you if they add chloramine.

Good luck - you probably have a long road ahead. Clean, stable water within the parameters I posted above and wait and see.

Adam

[DiscusDrew]

If kenamyacin is available you can use that in combination with tetracycline for a pretty solid antibiotic. What Gary suggested is best though so go with that if available. After his treatment it may unfortunately be necessary to treat with pro form C, or a similar product containing malachite green and formalin, its possible he has external parasites as well, but I would agree to focus on the antibiotics first. I brought a fish back that looks almost exactly as he does, he will never be the same again most likely, but you have him separated so if you can save him then that's up to you. He will most likely be stunted.... For my fish i'm not sure I would have brought him back if I could go back in time, cost a bit and put him through hell.

[joe1225us]

OK. I placed him in an isolation tank, and treated with Sulfa. After a few days of barley moving, he started to look and act better. Now he swims around and runs for food. But doesn’t really eat. He will race to get black worms, grab them and then after chewing them a little, will spit them out. Seems to really want them, as he runs to grab them. (I am suspecting that perhaps he can only eat tiny pieces as he may have swallowed some tiny bits of worm). Any ideas? Here is a picture of him now.74107

[aalbina]

OK - Sulfa is a broad spectrum antibiotic - though I've never used it. Continue the antibiotic treatment - follow the directions on the box. Don't cut that treatment short. Give the fish some time with the antibiotics - it may start eating. If after the treatment is complete - and plenty of quality water is provided - it still doesn't eat then perhaps there are some other issues internally which would require a different treatment. Do you see any feces in the hospital tank? What is the temperature of the hospital tank - water change regiment on the hospital tank?

Adam