Penang Eruption pair

[Cameronv]

Hey everyone so this pair is from Kenny. I asked him to pick me out a male and female and he did his best. The pair is confirmed, kenny did a great job picking them out for me. Here are some pictures of them spawning.

http://i.imgur.com/AxIPn.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/OYt3v.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/zS5OB.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/OELys.jpg

I have a really nice video of them spawning but I can't find a free video uploading site.

Here's my problem. The fry start to swim and go in circles eventually falling off the spawning site. After this I'm not sure what happens, they just disappear. This is the second spawn and they're very good parents. They never eat the eggs, always get along, and are very involved with the eggs. I put a plate under the pot because the fry are falling off, the parents look and try to catch them but nothing really happens. They lay a good amount of eggs and 80-90% are fertile/hatch. I stop cleaning the bottom of the tank once they lay eggs because I don't want to disturb them. Eventually poop collects on the plate and it's really hard to see freshly hatched fry. Usually in all the pictures I see of spawning the fry stay on the hatching site, all of mine fall off the pot and get lost :( can anyone give some suggestions?

I don't want to, but I'm close to just artificially raising the next batch.

[shoveltrash]

awesome pair!
no advice for you, I'm not knowledgable in regards to breeding/raising fry......but I'll be interested in responses. good luck!

[Chicago Discus]

IMO two spawns is not enough to start start thinking of artificially raising fry sometimes it takes pairs longer to get things right. also IMO when they are with fry is the most important time to clean the bottom of the tank wiping walls and floors and vacuuming the bottom you really don't want the food and poo sitting around decaying and causing problems. I would try to cork the top of that pot if you can they could be falling in the hole. Just give it time and be patient they will get right......Josie

[Cameronv]

Thanks trish and josie. Guess I'll just have to be more patient with them.

[discusvast]

nice pair and good luck in breeding them, your pm box's full. I'll post them here instead, i got those cone from New Jersey long time, don't know they made them anymore. some sponsor here made some nice cone as well, you may want to contact them.

[strawberryblonde]

Did I spy a snail in the tank? If so, that could be where your wrigglers/free swimmers are going! Snails love them some teensy fry. I currently have a new batch of cories in my display tank and the number dwindles daily because of my danged snails.

[Altum Nut]

Thanks trish and josie. Guess I'll just have to be more patient with them.

You may also want to consider cleaning the cone. Just like tank walls...it too will build slime.

...Ralph

[CliffsDiscus]

Good luck with the next spawn, but the swimming in circle is due to bent spinals commonly called spinners in the trade.


Cliff

[nc0gnet0]

What is the tds of the water and are you using RO?

[Cameronv]

Good luck with the next spawn, but the swimming in circle is due to bent spinals commonly called spinners in the trade.
Cliff
Thanks cliff that explains a lot. Is there any way to stop this from happening or it's just a natural process?

Nco I'm not sure of my TDS. It's pretty hard, I haven't added any RO since I drained all of it and hurt the system lol - that was some time ago.

UPDATE
I got home 4-5 days ago from vacation and had another spawn. It was a very nice home coming gift :)
I left the day after for another week vacation, when I left they were still fanning. I put in an actual spawning cone with a lip and I'm hoping things are going to go smoother. They are very good parents, I really lucked out with them. My piwowarski pair are just awful parents.. It's painful to watch.

Toni that is a snail and I was worried about that too. I watched for awhile and every time he got remotely close the dad went after him. I've seen dad to it to him a few times so I left him in there thinking he wouldn't let him get close.

[Brent1972]

Good luck with this batch.

[Harry Marsh]

Do you leave the lights on 100%?

I have attachment failures and your issues if I leave lights on directly above the aquarium...

You should forward those piwowarskis to me and concentrate on this pair :)




When I see free swimmers, I alternate lights on and off
More off than on, with a light on in the room near the aquarium

I think fry get confused by bright overhanging lights

[Cameronv]

Do you leave the lights on 100%?

I have attachment failures and your issues if I leave lights on directly above the aquarium...

You should forward those piwowarskis to me and concentrate on this pair :)

When I see free swimmers, I alternate lights on and off
More off than on, with a light on in the room near the aquarium

I think fry get confused by bright overhanging lights

LOL, harry you should forward me one of your numerous males who will fertilize my beautiful female RT's eggs and not eat them. I can see it in your future.

Most likely the lights stayed on 100% because the person feeding my fish while I was away has no clue about fish. It's a small bar of LEDs and it has 2 night lights on it. Thanks for the light schedule advice I'll keep that in mind in the next spawn.

UPDATE
Came home today super amped on checking the tanks and no fry... So many breeding attempts.. so many failures.. I even noticed some of my piwow stock have separated tail fins. It some type of fin rot, maybe bacterial or fungi. In the worst case of the disease it looks like one of my discus is a veil tail. 95% water change today, hopefully that will help. Sigh..

PE's are cleaning the cone today again so hopefully I'll get another spawn. Usually they spawn on sundays. I'm very very close to taking the cone out and trying artificial.

[Cameronv]

Another spawn today. Every sunday, its like clock work with these two. They spawned minutes after a 90% WC.

[Cameronv]

The fry don't stay attached to the spawning site, they just fall off after hatching - all of them. Can someone please give me some advice on what to do?

[Harry Marsh]

I am going to guess very high Tds

I have read similar experiences on here with high tds
Time for r.o. :)

[CliffsDiscus]

The fry don't stay attached to the spawning site, they just fall off after hatching - all of them. Can someone please give me some advice on what to do?

Your female is lacking the adhesive, malfunction of the adhesive gland that is why the eggs are falling off the substrate.

Cliff

[Cameronv]

They stay on till they hatch. Is there anything I can do to help?

[warblad79]

I have the same problem before, the eggs does not stick to the cone and when the parents fan the eggs they fall off. I gave them a break from breeding at least a months and then start all over again. Now, I have 3 days old free swimmer and attaching are no problem at all. you need to condition your pair before you start again because too much breeding is not good for the fish.

[Bilbo]

haha... he's saying they stay on until hatched... eggs aren't falling off

[warblad79]

hahahahaha....Nice

[Cameronv]

Why's that nice, I'm so close.. I can see fry hatching :( then they're just gone.

[warblad79]

Parents eating the fry. my pair that I'm working out right now it took maybe 8 times or more.

[Bilbo]

Why's that nice, I'm so close.. I can see fry hatching :( then they're just gone. Heck no that isn't nice. I think he was laughing with me because other's we're telling you why your eggs were falling off when in fact you had already said it was your fry. Anyway... I think it's your pair man. They are new to this. Check this out.... fry will wiggle and squiggle and flip about right after they hatch. This is normal. They will bounce off the spawning site and tumble to the ground. This is where the parents come in. Good parents will move QUICKLY to intercept those gymnist fry. They will suck them up and spit them back on the spawning site or to the place they sometimes move the fry. Good parents will also hunt the floor underneath the spawning site for wigglers that got past their eye. They gently pick them back up and put them back. Give your pair some time and they should do fine. Good luck friend!

[Bilbo]

I may have also misread your post... if they are gone the parents are eating them. You got this man... they are just young, inexperienced parents. They will get the hang of it. Sometimes it can take up to 12 spawnings or more. But normally not so long. Some parents get it right their very first time!

[Cameronv]

No they don't eat the fry. I've watched the entire process. Fry hatch, directly fall off than the parents try to pick them up and spit them back onto the site but it never works. They're so small when hatching it's even hard for me to see and distinguish them with a flash light.

They are very very good parents. They never eat eggs, always are attentive, fanning, and they are not young. I have inexperienced parents and these are certainly not. This is the 6th spawn.

[JenTN]

No they don't eat the fry. I've watched the entire process. Fry hatch, directly fall off than the parents try to pick them up and spit them back onto the site but it never works. They're so small when hatching it's even hard for me to see and distinguish them with a flash light.

Do they fall right after hatching? Because mine stayed on the cone for a day or more before the exhausting pick up routine started. I believe Degan said that the longer they stay on the cone before falling off the better chance of success. But this is just my first spawn, so this is all I have to go on.

[Cameronv]

Thats exactly what I'm talking about jen. I've seen pictures of hatched spawning sites and they're all grouped up in the spawning material until they become free swimming. They egg yolks do not stay on the site, they start swimming their little tales and then the egg falls off.

[Bilbo]

No they don't eat the fry. I've watched the entire process. Fry hatch, directly fall off than the parents try to pick them up and spit them back onto the site but it never works. They're so small when hatching it's even hard for me to see and distinguish them with a flash light.

They are very very good parents. They never eat eggs, always are attentive, fanning, and they are not young. I have inexperienced parents and these are certainly not. This is the 6th spawn. Have any other fish in the tank? Any apple snails or other large snails? Fry just do not dissapear for no reason. If there is nothing else in the tank then parents are eating them and you are not just seeing it happen.

[JenTN]

Thats exactly what I'm talking about jen. I've seen pictures of hatched spawning sites and they're all grouped up in the spawning material until they become free swimming. They egg yolks do not stay on the site, they start swimming their little tales and then the egg falls off.

Ok then looks like weve narrowed the problem down, now for the solution. Im sure someone with experience will chime in, in the meantime, Ill read thru some books in the next couple days.

[Cameronv]

I have one "apple" snail - probably not an apple snail but it is a large snail. He can't get a cross the tank without being dive bombed. The problem is the fry aren't staying on the site, I'm coming to the conclusion that cliff suggested with the adhesive material from the female not working correctly.

Thanks for your help jen

[JenTN]

I have one "apple" snail - probably not an apple snail but it is a large snail. He can't get a cross the tank without being dive bombed. The problem is the fry aren't staying on the site, I'm coming to the conclusion that cliff suggested with the adhesive material from the female not working correctly.

Even a couple nights after, mine would bed theirs down on a suction cup at night. I have the timeline written down. Wonder if its an enzyme thats lacking, or protein? What is your pair's diet like?

Oh and talk about weird...over a hundred gnat looking things on a small suction cup!!! Wish Id taken a picture.

[Cameronv]

They're healthy fat fish. As you can see in the pictures, they're thick. I feed FDBW and frozen BW here and there to entice spawning. They're very happy active fish. I don't like to even walk by the tank because they never leave the glass. All thanks to kenny for picking me out such nice fish :)

[JenTN]

They're healthy fat fish. As you can see in the pictures, they're thick. I feed FDBW and frozen BW here and there to entice spawning. They're very happy active fish. I don't like to even walk by the tank because they never leave the glass. All thanks to kenny for picking me out such nice fish :)

Lol sometimes I'll be watching T.V. and get that feeling you get like someone's staring at you...look over and it's always my male looking dead center at me. I swear he's sending feed me vibes out :-)

[Cameronv]

Haha I love fish with personalities.

[Harry Marsh]

I still think it's TDS
I've heard of them not sticking with really high TDS

[Cameronv]

Too bad I broke the RO system. It's only a 20 gal.

[Keith Perkins]

MMORRIS had this happening one time and figured out it was a water condition issue, but I don't recall exactly what the condition or solution was. I do remember the solution was relatively simple. You might PM Martha and ask her just to see if by chance it might be the same thing. Could be diet or genetic too.

[Cityofangelfish]

Very nice congrats...

[DiscusDrew]

If your gone as often as what its come across artificial rearing won't be possible, its pretty time consuming. Possible but I know myself I just can't do it, not enough hours in the day. Kinda sucks to have to rely on finding good parents though.

[Cameronv]

Thanks pete and keith. I'll shoot martha a PM. I need to rule out my TDS before looking into ideas like genetics. I don't have the money to buy an RO system or the patience to run back and forth to the LFS for RO. I know george uses a powder to equalize the TDS in his water, I'm going to PM him as well. At the moment some type of precipitating agent seems like a easy solution to lower my tds and rule that out if it's not the problem.

I've raised other species of fish artificial successfully a few times. Discus are more delicate, but hey it would be worth a try. It's not like my fry are surviving any way.

[mmorris]

The only time this has happened to me was when I added a full dose of calcium and magnesium right after the eggs hatched. I have very soft water so I need to add the minerals for proper development. Well, they slid off that cone like they were riding on grease. I have heard that the problem may be related to an internal bacterial infection but I personally don't know. I'd like to hear what Cliff has to say on this one.

[CliffsDiscus]

I had 4 pairs from breeders that wanted me to raise their Discus artifically. I used 100 percent RO and medication after a number of spawns all were able to
product healthy frys.

Cliff

[mmorris]

Antibiotic?

[CliffsDiscus]

Antibiotic?

I used TC, Droncid, Metro, Acriflavine for hatching and PraziPro. A Pathogist was not an option as it would out cost the Discus. Cary Strong's Whitebutterfly was the worst
as it probably took about 10 spawnings.


Cliff

[Brokenrack]

Your best bet is to get an eruption leopard. Two snakeskins are going to produce fewer viable fry.
Scott