Help! first experience not going well

[Fishjunkie]

Hi Everyone,
Glad to find this group. I hope to learn a lot. I just bought 2 new discus that a "reputable" store ordered for me and they came stressed out. Like an idiot I took them home because these were my first discus ever (graduating from breeding Angels) and I wanted them so bad and the store owner said he would replace them if I lost them. 2 days later one starts showing signs of Columnaris which I originally thought was fungus and put API fungus cure in the tank. The following day I got Melafix and have been putting it in the tank for 3 days. One was already too weak and i lost him but the other is hanging on. Not doing great but the cottony white stuff has gone away. Now he is flashing and getting weaker and I am wondering if he has parasites too and where the hell this guy got these fish from. 2 cardinal tetras I already had and a betta left over from cycling the tank are fine so I know this didn't come from my fish. Here is my tank information.
37 gallon tank (small, I know - larger one in the works if I can keep discus alive long enough) 2 cardinal tetras, one betta fish and one discus about 2.5 inches remaining from a pair I brought home last Friday. PH 7.4 comes out of my tap 6.4. Just now ammonia reading 0.25 ppm. I'm not comfortable with this stat but was told not to do a water change until I was done treating with melafix. Want to do a water change badly! Nitrites are 0 ppm, Nitrates at about 20 ppm. This tank has been cycled completely and has been running for 2 months now. I bought the Cardinals 2 weeks before the discus to act as a canary of sorts as I know they are fussy about their water too. I figured if they were doing fine then it was time to put 2 discus in. The tank is planted live and has a gravel bottom. I have extra aeration running right now.
Please impart your wisdom to me but remember i am a rookie and have never done a dip or measured things out by weight. I am looking for the simplest cure right now that won't kill my good bacteria or my plants. Thanks in advance! almost forgot - water temp 83C
Fishjunkie

[mmorris]

I recommend you get rid of absolutely everything in that tank, steralize it and start over. You can get a cycled sponge from most reputable discus sellers so you don't have to do a fishless cycle. Have a read, and welcome to Simply: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?86009-Beginner-s-Guide-to-Getting-Started-with-Discus

[Fishjunkie]

Seriously? This tank has a 3 D stone and driftwood background that took me months to create and a decent financial investment. It was a real labor of love. Isn't there any other answer?

[mmorris]

If you keep asking, you will receive the answer you seek. :) Alternatively, get rid of all the fish and plants, steralize everything in it, and buy adults. Your tank is only a 37 gallon and discus need roughly 10 gallons per fish. Because of pecking order and stress, three or four discus are not good numbers to keep so you would be advised to buy a breeding pair. Pricey. Again, have a read of the link I posted. It will give you lots of info.

[Fishjunkie]

Ok. If its still alive tomorrow I am bringing it back to the dealer, getting a bunch of cardinal tetras and enjoying my planted tank for a while. Will venture into Discus when I can afford a bigger tank. Meantime I'll read up.
Thanks.

[DiscusDrew]

I agree with mmorris, Discus unfortunately require a great deal of care, and given even JUST the Ph aspect and how it changes from tap to tank means you need to be looking at aging your water before you will have success with discus. They require stability and a premium water change and feeding schedule. As in for juvenile fish (yours, less than 4" or so) you need to be doing daily water changes of 50% ideally. You will also have better success with a Bare Bottom (BB) tank. Theres honestly just SO much information to list here that reading up is your solution. I wish I could say discus are a fish you can just choose to jump into, but alas they are not and almost daily there is a post similar to this where low quality fish were picked up (almost always are, even from the "best" local fish stores) and then died shortly after their arrival in the home. We will more than gladly answer any questions you have after reading some of the basic information in the beginners section. I think your plan of just doing more basic fish for now until you've read up and can get a more appropriate set-up for discus sounds like a very good idea. Discus are not impossible, but are even moreso a "labor of love" and require a great deal of diligence on the part of the keeper. Best of luck with the tank and your future endeavors.

P.S.- Get rid of the melafix, it wont do anything that a good water change cant do, and its just one more thing in the water that doesnt need to be.

[Fishjunkie]

I have been reading and studying up on discus for years in preparation for this and what I read in the link doesn't seem to be anything I wasn't already aware of. I had planned to get 5 juveniles and grow them for a while in this tank and then move them to a 125 gallon. I am in the process of setting up a continuous water change system for this tank which is half way complete. It would change out as much as 17 gallons a day and it takes into account aging my water so the ph has a chance to stabilize. Am I really that far off from being ready to do this?

PS Did a 50 percent water change and everyone seems better for it - will discontinue melafix. Thanks.

[DiscusDrew]

Well at least in your current tank it seems like quite a bit wasn't right, or at least not ideal for your first adventure. One thing I didn't mention that is more important than possibly anything else is starting with quality stock, which in general I would say is not possible from a LFS. Try the sponsors here when you are ready, Hans, Kenny, both incredible sources, its worth the shipping cost. I would say for your first tank, at least starting out, don't do plants (unless your going to do adults), start with older discus they are less demanding and less likely to get stunted while your learning, start with a BB tank so you can easily keep the tank perfectly clean, be readywith good quality food, and age your water. Those are just a few points that will make life a hell of a lot easier as you begin with discus and learn from experience. JME, HTH

[PaulD]

Hi Fishjunkie

I'm newbie here too with out this forum and great sd member I would done a lot of things wrong. I have read and read everyday for months before I decided what to do. So I now I have 125g plants (a lot of plants) with 7 sub-adult 4.5"-5" from Kenny. I have them almost two months and my fish are doing great. Just my opinion. Good luck

Ps. I'm still reading and do home work every day

[Harry Marsh]

Also, only two fish?

It may not matter what you do, it would result in stressed fish. You need a larger group for them to feel more comfortable

[strawberryblonde]

Ok, so you have a small tank and want to grow out discus in order to place them in a larger tank, right? Here's the best, easiest and, from my personal experience, safest way to turn out healthy discus for that larger tank.

1) Purchase 3" discus from a reputable dealer. If you are planning to have a larger tank, buy at least 6 of them. Check out the Sponsor section of these forums for a list of great breeders!

2) Plan to purchase at least a 75 gallon tank, as a final display tank, for the minimum 6 discus, or go larger if you want to raise more than 6. (10 gallons of water per adult discus, and don't forget to factor in any other fish you have in the tank)

3) Since you experience a large pH swing between tap and tank, buy an aging barrel and age/aerate/heat your WC water for 24 hours before adding it to the tank.

4) For growing out 3" fish, you'll be much more successful at keeping them healthy and not stunting them if you remove the plants and substrate. You can leave the background, add a small amount of sand and even some driftwood for decor. Just try to keep the driftwood off the bottom, or make sure it sits on "legs" rather than a large stump type bottom since that will make it easier to clean the tank thoroughly.

5) Plan to do daily WC's for the first few months. Keep the daily WC at about 50 - 80% and base the amount on how much crud collects as well as what your nitrate numbers are daily. Nitrates are best if they remain under 5ppm for discus grow-outs.

6) Feed several times a day with good meaty foods. Discus love high protein foods and will accept flakes, pellets, freeze dried blackworms, frozen beefheart and occasional bloodworms (as a treat only).

7) Be sure to remove the beta and current tetra's, then sterilize the tank well before adding your group of discus. Your smallish growout tank is going to be quite crowded when you add 3" discus, so don't add any other fish for the time being. You can quarantine other fish in your current tank and then add them to your final large display tank once the discus have been moved to it.

8) Since you are sterilizing the tank you'll need to seed your filters all over again. The easiest way to do that is to ask your breeder to provide you with a cycled sponge filter. Run that in the tank along with your filters and you'l be good to go with your batch of new discus.

If you follow the above steps you can expect to raise healthy discus who will most likely reach 6 inches or more within the first year you have them. They grow FAST (how fast and adult size depends a lot on the strain) so long as they have lots of clean water, plenty of high protein foods and a stable pH in the tank.

I guess I don't need to add that, if it were me, I'd return the remaining discus to the LFS along with the tetra's and beta pronto so that you can get your tank clean again and order some good discus online.