View Full Version : Questions from Noob getting ready to take the plunge
OK, so I am noob to Discus, but not to Cichlids. I keep Frontosa and some very rare and sometimes delicate Victorian cichlids, but I realize Discus are even more maintanence, so here is where I am heading, please steer me as you see fit.
1) I am creating a setup for an English school in Japan, they have a 36" L x 12" D x 15" H tank. I realize a larger tank will be needed later.
2) I plan on starting with Juvies, because of the tank size and cost. Though I am curious if a breeding pair could be kept in this tank, since I realize the maintenence would be less critical.
My boss is paying for everything, including paying me for the project, so I am thinking I may be able to get her to spring for a breeding pair in lieu of payment and then I can keep/sell the fry. OK, soo... ??
3) I will be using a white sand substrate (very thin) just to keep it appealing for the boss and students, plus it's just my thing. I know many breeders prefer bare bottom, but I like giving the fish some sand to sift through. I will be using a python to syphon it though.
4) I teach at the school 2 days a week, and have 1 mandatory meeting a month. I am sure I can get the boss or another teacher to change the water at least one or two more times a week, but would like to know with Juvies what is the minimum ammount I can get away with weekly? My plan was to go for 2 large air driven spong filters for effiency/fail proof(ish) oxygen supply and a little something for the fish to hide behind when they feel shy or want to spawn. However I am reconsidering since I originally thought the tank was a 40 breeder and the sponges would cut into their already limited realestate. My other option would be an aquaclear 70 HOB. Ideally I would like to do both but that may be pushing the budget.. that being said would using both IE overkill on filtration help out a bit with limiting the water change frequency?
5) Are there any communtiy fish that will not interupt spawning/ not be killed which I can use to cycle the tank. I know it is a bit cruel, but checking the tank daily to cycle it is not really a viable option for me.
6) I have yet to test the PH and hardness of the water, my plan is to aim high with baking soda and epsom unless the PH is already very high, I do this with my frontosa and I find it is much less troublesome for me. My related question is .. Do I really need to age the water if I am conditioning with Prime and using a buffer recipe? I feel the need to emphasize here I have over 1000 gallons in the states my fish are very healthy and spawning in sparkling well oxygenated, hard water with a constant PH of about 8.2. All be it they only require 20% weekly changes, except the fry which are every other day 50%.
7) PS there is a VERY experienced LFS right down the street that does free emergency housecalls, so there is some relief if I am not there at a critical moment, as I do understand all too well how quickly things can go wrong in a fish room.
I feel a little silly asking questions I feel like I know the answers too, but I know it is always best to trust those with experience, and as much experience as I have with fish, this appears to be a bit more than I am used to. So basically I am just asking for as much advice as possible given my circumstances, and understanding I am a bit stubborn and Discus are very likely the fish that is going in the classroom. Literally could not find any African cichlids, plus the agression rules them out, and I am not really into Central american cichlids anymore, nor rams, nor community fish. If all goes well with this, I may very well be setting up some tanks in my house, and getting some really nice breeders down the road.
triplecrown333
06-11-2012, 02:01 PM
good luck trying to tell the kids not to overfeed the fish, disaster waiting to happen...try guppies;)
There are only 5 students at this branch of the school. 3 are only 4 years old and way too short to reach the tank top, and the other 2 are 12. One of the 12 year olds wants to be a marine bioligist. I am teaching the older students about water chemistry as their english is very advanced. Also believe it or not Japanese kids actually listen to instructions, and even double and triple check before doing things they are not familiar with. Not to mention the fish food will be away from the tank ;) The Boss wanted Marine, this is my compromise, and frankly a bit of my way of getting my feet wet with Discus before diving in. I have wanted Discus for many years, so please helpful advice on keeping them, not opinions of whether or not I should ;) It's worth mentioning this is the bosses house, and she has had experience with tropical fish, so there is someone there I can instruct most the time should issues arise .
hmmm..
i would say if you can get/afford a pair.. do that.. ADULTS are lot easier and more forgiving of mistakes then JUVIES>. esp for what you are trying to do. your tank is about a 30g..
triplecrown333
06-11-2012, 02:30 PM
ok, my bad...thought you were teaching a full classroom...
strawberryblonde
06-11-2012, 02:32 PM
OK, so I am noob to Discus, but not to Cichlids. I keep Frontosa and some very rare and sometimes delicate Victorian cichlids, but I realize Discus are even more maintanence, so here is where I am heading, please steer me as you see fit.
1) I am creating a setup for an English school in Japan, they have a 36" L x 12" D x 15" H tank. I realize a larger tank will be needed later.
So long as you can afford a larger tank later, get 5-6 discus who are at least 3.5" - 4". Anything smaller than that is going to end in disaster I fear...and with kids you really don't want them watching the discus as they die.
2) I plan on starting with Juvies, because of the tank size and cost. Though I am curious if a breeding pair could be kept in this tank, since I realize the maintenence would be less critical.
My boss is paying for everything, including paying me for the project, so I am thinking I may be able to get her to spring for a breeding pair in lieu of payment and then I can keep/sell the fry. OK, soo... ??
A breeding pair is definitely a good fit for that tank, though the cost can be quite high. You'll still need to keep water quality up, but won't need to feed beefheart, etc, or feed as often, so water changes would be easier.
3) I will be using a white sand substrate (very thin) just to keep it appealing for the boss and students, plus it's just my thing. I know many breeders prefer bare bottom, but I like giving the fish some sand to sift through. I will be using a python to syphon it though.
A thin layer of sand is fine.
4) I teach at the school 2 days a week, and have 1 mandatory meeting a month. I am sure I can get the boss or another teacher to change the water at least one or two more times a week, but would like to know with Juvies what is the minimum ammount I can get away with weekly? My plan was to go for 2 large air driven spong filters for effiency/fail proof(ish) oxygen supply and a little something for the fish to hide behind when they feel shy or want to spawn. However I am reconsidering since I originally thought the tank was a 40 breeder and the sponges would cut into their already limited realestate. My other option would be an aquaclear 70 HOB. Ideally I would like to do both but that may be pushing the budget.. that being said would using both IE overkill on filtration help out a bit with limiting the water change frequency?
Since you're going to put these guys into a larger tank once they've grown out a bit, I wouldn't worry too much about real estate in this tank. Sponge filters work well! A HOB is also good, but more filtration won't reduce your need for water changes.
5) Are there any communtiy fish that will not interupt spawning/ not be killed which I can use to cycle the tank. I know it is a bit cruel, but checking the tank daily to cycle it is not really a viable option for me.
Consider doing a fishless cycle which will eliminate the possiblity of contaminating your expensive discus with pathogens from the cycle fish. If that won't work or takes too long, you can always purchase a seeded sponge filter from the breeder when you purchase your discus. Instant cycled tank!
6) I have yet to test the PH and hardness of the water, my plan is to aim high with baking soda and epsom unless the PH is already very high, I do this with my frontosa and I find it is much less troublesome for me. My related question is .. Do I really need to age the water if I am conditioning with Prime and using a buffer recipe? I feel the need to emphasize here I have over 1000 gallons in the states my fish are very healthy and spawning in sparkling well oxygenated, hard water with a constant PH of about 8.2. All be it they only require 20% weekly changes, except the fry which are every other day 50%.
Messing with the pH by using buffers is just asking for illness in your discus. They do best with STABLE pH and prefer lower pH, not higher. You might get them to spawn someday, but you won't get good hatch rates.
Best bet is to test the pH from the tap, aerate and test again at 24 hours. If there's a large pH swing you'll definitely want to age the water. If your natural pH is above 7.8, don't fret over it or try to lower it, just plan to use some RO water if/when you get to the point of wanting to breed the discus.
7) PS there is a VERY experienced LFS right down the street that does free emergency housecalls, so there is some relief if I am not there at a critical moment, as I do understand all too well how quickly things can go wrong in a fish room.
I feel a little silly asking questions I feel like I know the answers too, but I know it is always best to trust those with experience, and as much experience as I have with fish, this appears to be a bit more than I am used to. So basically I am just asking for as much advice as possible given my circumstances, and understanding I am a bit stubborn and Discus are very likely the fish that is going in the classroom. Literally could not find any African cichlids, plus the agression rules them out, and I am not really into Central american cichlids anymore, nor rams, nor community fish. If all goes well with this, I may very well be setting up some tanks in my house, and getting some really nice breeders down the road.
Final Notes: If you're going to grow out discus and buy sub-adults rather than juvies, you're going to have a greater chance of success. You can teach someone else how to do water changes, just be sure that you do them frequently, ok? If it was me I'd be planning to do at least a 90% WC every other day with 4" discus.
@strawberryblonde Thankyou for the very useful info, I have two follow up questions.
1) How long would a breeding pair be ok in that tank? ( Btw, when I first moved here a fish shop had a dozen 40 gallon breeders for $5 each!, but none the less I can get them cheap enough, often enough).
2) Comment/quesion... I thought many of you kept your PH at 8.4? The reason I use the buffer with my frontosa is that they prefer a high PH, and local water supplies can vary. It is my understanding that with baking soda the PH tops out at something like 8.4 cause after that any additional baking soda just falls out of the water. So that is why I feel safe using it, because it is hard to overdue it, and it actually creates a stable PH so long as you don't forget to add it, plus I am narotic about checking PH and hardness. It has worked very well for me, but if I am misinformed, I am all ears.
no buffer.. WATER Consistency is driven by what water you have available to you.. WITHOUT chemicals.. that is best source..
missing with PH of water you have available can be disastrous..
strawberryblonde
06-11-2012, 03:16 PM
A breeding pair can stay in that tank permanently..woot! =)
Any fry will need to be removed to their own tank once they are eating well - maybe 6 weeks? Dunno for sure cuz I'm not currently working with fry. When that time comes you could do some reading on the Breeding Discus section of the forums.
pH: Nope nope, discus in the wild (south american cichlids vs. african cichlids) are accustomed to very low pH and any tank kept wilds need to remain in super low pH waters. BUT, with domestics they have been tank raised in slightly higher "tap water" conditions, so they will thrive in just about any pH so long as it's stable.
My own pH/TDS is high, which means that I have to use RO water for breeding if I want to get good hatch rates.
Long story short, the easiest method to deliver good quality, stable water to your tank is the best method. Age the water if necessary and beyond that, don't do a thing to it.
Larry Bugg
06-11-2012, 03:29 PM
I believe your tank is around 24 or 25 gallons which is perfect for a pair. I keep my pairs in 20H tanks. While this tank is ok to start growing out discus it will soon become too crowded. You really need to consider when you would be able to get into a larger tank. One thing that worries me about the info you have posted is that you may only end up doing water changes 2 or 3 days a week at most. When growing out young discus we normally reccomend daily water changes. To maintain proper growth we feed juvies 4 or 5 times a day and very clean water is imperative. You can reduce the number of water changes necessary by going with larger juvies around 4" as Toni suggested but that leads to another issue. Discus are a social fish and need to be kept in groups. Normally 6 or more. In smaller groups, aggression can become a big issue. Your tank size is not suitable for six 4" discus. A breeding pair sounds better and better. Since it is for a school maybe you can find someone willing to sell a pair at a decent price.
Dealing with Frontosa I understand the social needs and agression that can occur very well. In that world a 125 is sometimes too small ;) and they definitely thrive in larger groups and have less issues. Apparently I was misinformed about PH for these fish. It's a bit funny though cause on the frontosa forum I am usually one of the people telling noobs not to add anything because it can end in disaster. But after losing half a colony of Mpimbwe to a local water supply PH drop I became pretty insistant on controlling my own PH. Done properly it is fine, but I understand the warning and don't advise it on a whole. Looks like I won't need to do it for the Discus anyways, and my substrate has a bit of buffer capacity anyways.
OK so as for Pair vs youngsters, If I can find a decent priced pair I will definitely go that route, if I go with a larger group of youngsters I will be sure to have a standbye tank at my home ready for any necessary measures. If I went with youngsters, ideally I would like to keep the suggested 6 or so together, and hopefully see a pair forming, then separate the rest and maybe add more to that group in a tank at my home. If breeding occurs with a pair in either scenario I will raise the fry for a very short time at the school in their a little 20 gallon tank they also have, and then bring them to my place after that. All of this is subject to change as need be, but it's sorta my loose meat sandwhich plan. Unfortunately Disicus over here tend to have ludicrous prices. They can be carried on planes from the US with absolutely no fees or forms, and I am trying to find out if shipping them may be easy too, but I am not very optimistic. There is a LFS (very nice quality, yes I know the risk) that has some reasonable? deals on youngsters, but the adults all start near $100, and upwards of $300. Don't think the boss is gonna go for that. I probably shouldn't even mention it, but they have a reject tank on the next row over from the keepers, which is like $30 for 5. Some look decent, but I recognized issues with all, but.... for an english school and feet wetting experience it is tempting, but really not my aim... but.... first I need to talk to the boss tomorrow and try to get her excited enough to get a pair and take it from there.
Larry Bugg
06-11-2012, 04:09 PM
$100 for adults is not really high. Actually what I would consider the low end. If you buy adults from any of our sponsors here you will normally expect to pay from $100 to $300. A breeding pair will go for $250 to $600.
A breeding pair for $250 is about what I would expect, and I know they can be much more. I have seen some online in Japan for $1500. For the quality the prices for adults were fine, though some of the juvies were $100, granted the nicer ones. Here are some pics from that shop. There's a zebra pleco and a couple other pics in there, I need to sleep so am too lazy to pic out the discus only pics at the moment. :p
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:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p :p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p:p
What's that you say? Videos of some WC fish? Okey dokey. But then I sleep :angel:
https://vimeo.com/43679368
https://vimeo.com/43679369
and I think this one was F1
https://vimeo.com/43679367
Any notable issues with any of these fish which I am not seeing?
Any notable issues with any of these fish which I am not seeing?
yea.. those fish in the videos are wilds.. at least thats what they look like to me.. not sure if those would be best for classroom..
imho.. stick to a domestics.. like the spotted fish from page 1
Sorry, I should have been more clear, I was just showing the wilds since I figured this forum would appreciate it. Both my colony's of Frontosa are WC ;) I would be getting some of the fish from the photos if I indeed get some at this shop. So my next question would be are those all reasonable size.. I guess maybe their juvies may be near sub adults? Most I would say are 2 1/2" to 3" Then the larger ones which are mixed into those pics are 4+. If the 2 1/2" 3" range is suitable for that tank, and qualify as "easier to care for adults" that would be perfect.
On the bright side I realized where they want the tank is less than 10 feet from an outside tub style sink with the correct fitting for a python, so I think getting the water changed 4 or 5 times a week may not be too unreasoble. I plan on having a giant White board next to the tank which reads DON'T FORGET TO ADD PRIME !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On another note, I think I will be getting an aquaclear 70 since the sponges are readily available here should I feel the need for extra filtration down the road. Will the 70 be ok, or should I be worried about too much current for this tank and fish?
Last question (for the moment) my plan is to order most the things for this setup from Kensfish because the price including shipping is less than ordering locally, but the question has come up about voltage, Japan is maybe 120, where as the us is 110 I believe. I have a US computer and have had no issues, but obviously I want to be sure this time since there are fishy lives at stake.
So I am assuming the fish in the pictures look of reasonable quality?
Well, after much delays, I have the tank stand built, and everything but cycled water and fish.. This weekend I will be setting up the stand, and finding something hardy and healthy to cycle the tank. I would love to do a fishless cycle, but I am just not their frequently enough. I have decided to get one juvenille discus for the time being, again not ideal, but this way should everything go wrong there is less loss, and also should the water changes be less than ideal there is some room for forgiveness. The filtration will be extreme for just one fish, so it should be ok. My plan is to vent the fish later as it grows, or move the fish to my home when I get a tank set up and give it a group to chill with, while getting a breeding pair for the school once I know things are stable.
I will update in a few weeks.
Second Hand Pat
11-05-2012, 11:14 AM
Mee, I would suggest doing a fishless cycle so you do not introduce issues from existing fish and and keeping one discus is not a good way to go as discus are shoaling fish and be best in groups of six or more. You should consider reading the stickies in the beginner section to get a better feel of discus basics.
SHP, I understand this, and have read the sticky's and many other threads extensively. The tank size will only allow for a pair for the long term. My schedule at the location has been all over the place lately, so I am going to discuss water maintainence with the only teacher that is there daily 5 times a week, and by the tank, if I feel she is capable and willing to do daily changes a group of half a dozen fish will be ok, but if there are any doubts, I have little choice. In Japan ideal situations for fish are rare, though water maintainece is very well done. Being a frontosa breeder I understand the concern and desire to see all in the hobby provide perfect conditions for colony fish. The only thing I can say is if it is one fish for awhile, that one fish will have far better care with me in charge than with 95% of the people it might otherwise go home with in this country. Though I suppose the same could be said in the US.
I have been paid for this project, and the school has been very specific about size and color being most important, they wanted Marine intially, but I talked them out of that. My only other option is a lonely african cichlid, and those are much harder to come by around here.
Second Hand Pat
11-08-2012, 11:30 AM
Understand Mee, hope it works out for you.
Pat
Understand Mee, hope it works out for you.
Pat
A long overdue update. The school kept changing things like where they wanted the tank, etc.. still they remain without fish, but that is set to change on the 10th. However I was bored of not having fish in my home for 2 years, and went ahead and picked up some Discus at very nice and large shop I didn't know existed. Amazingly it is only a 20 minute walk from my house along a koi filled canal. Quite ideal =)
Anyhow I initiallly bought a group of 8 Juvie Discus, and several weeks later one young adult of the same strain. The strain is Royal Red Blue, or Red Turk. I got them for the simple reason that they looked good and were cheap. I wil post pics later on.
I have had no problems with these fish, and am now looking at picking up some higher end strains for a little breeding project. Any recomendations on high dollar Discus that are relatively easy to breed? I have been looking at Sabby's locally, and there is a solatary adult Heckle female with her tube down at the fore mentioned shop. Not sure how wise it would be to try and pair her up at her age. She is huge!
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