External Bacteria?

[strawberryblonde]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

Patchy white spots on 8 out of 9 of my discus - noticed them on 4 fish last evening at WC and on 4 more this morning.

How they started: We had a power outage and large storm one week ago. My battery operated air pump failed one hour after the power outage and I had no means of adding warm water to the tank. I wrapped the tank in blankets to retain as much heat as possible and aerated the tank manually throughout the night (outage lasted 15 hours). I suspect that it was the decrease in oxygenation and the drop in temps that got this whole thing started. Oh yeah, forgot to mention that the air temp in the house reached 53 and temps in the tank reached 69.





2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

Patchy spots on the sides of the discus. Some resemble the classic Columnaris "saddleback", others have small patches nears fins.




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

Added salt at 1 tbs. per 10 gallons this morning in order to slow things down till I could get a treatment plan and meds.





Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

115g tank, 1 year running
9 discus - 6.5" - 8.75"
25 Cardinal Tetras
6 Cory's



5. Water change regime/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

WC - 80% every other day when things are "normal" in the tank. For the last week (since the power problem) daily WC of 75%
Light Sand Substrate
Water not aged



6 Parameters and water source;

- temp __84

- ph __8.2

- ammonia reading _0

- nitrite reading _0

- nitrate reading _>5ppm

- well water ____

- municipal water _yes

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

No new fish or plants. Tank only contains the fish listed above, 1 inch of sand and one piece of driftwood.


Ok, so which med is best to treat a bacteria outbreak? This definitely doesn't appear to be fungal in nature, so I think I'm safe in assuming that it's bacterial?

So far the fish still have good appetites, though they aren't quite as fiesty as usual as of this morning. I'm shocked at how quickly this thing is spreading and want to treat the tank/fish as soon as possible.
And that leads me to my next problem.

I can't buy meds locally and will need to order them online. Can anyone recommend the best place to purchase where I can have them shipped quickly?

[Second Hand Pat]

No Toni, not your beautiful fish. :( Furan 2 may be your best bet based on your description. Could you share any pictures?
Pat

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Pat,

I'm thinking Furan2 as well since it'll treat both positive and negative gram bacteria. I hear ya...I'm absolutely sick with worry at this point, but trying to remain calm and positive.

I can take some pics, though with all the sunlight glare on the tank at the moment it'll be hard to get a clear pic. Lemme go find my camera. =)

[strawberryblonde]

Here are the pics.

The Red Scrib, FlachenSS, female Flachen and Cobalt are the ones I saw last night and the patches have grown tremendously overnight.

The RT, Fred the Flachen, the female BT and Number Five only have tiny patches as of this morning.

My Marlboro is patch free! Go figure, huh? The only PB based fish in the tank and she's just swimming around happily, eating her heart out and chasing the other fish. LOL

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[Second Hand Pat]

Toni, are you friends with Eddie on FB? He is online now. See if he will pop in for a moment.

[strawberryblonde]

Well dadgummit, he's not on my friends list!

[Eddie]

Yup, furan 2 should do the trick. Gotta watch the salt with the cory's and the tetras. Also, it may not happens but I've lost cory's while treating with Furan-2 also. At this point, I'd treat anyways, to save the discus. Few other things, keep the lights off, keep a good amount of air going and temp around 82F. IF it doesn't seem to help, you can actually use double the recommended dose of Furan-2. The amount recommended on the bottle is actually less than what is used prescribed by aquatic vets. No worries, they'll be back in no time. ;)

[strawberryblonde]

Eddie!!! ;)

Thanks so much for taking time to come read my post. I've ordered the Furan2 and am having it overnighted to me. The salt worries me a bit with the cory's, but so far they seem unaffected this morning. Besides, the discus are SO much more important to me.

Will keep the lights off, add an air stone and lower the temps a bit.

Thanks for the encouragement. I tell ya, my babies have never truly been sick (a minor scratch here and there and one head injury) and seeing the patches this morning nearly gave me a heart attack.

[Eddie]

You don't have to keep the lights off until the Furan-2 is in the tank. Another treatment that would work in this case is a PP bath but not very effective in the main tank and not easy on your other tank mates. You can usually find Furan-2 at any pet store or walmart.

[strawberryblonde]

LOL, you've never been to Mountain Home, eh? Trust me, this is NOT a place you want to see on your PCS orders. We have a walmart, after a fashion... Pet stores? Ummmmmm......

[Eddie]

How are the fish doing today?

[strawberryblonde]

They're hanging in there so far.

And whoooeeeee, that's some vibrant yellow water in my tank. LOL

The four who were least affected by the bacteria actually looked much better this morning even before I put the furan2 in the tank. The other 4 didn't look any worse, but still were dark and had no appetite. I've only fed lightly for the past 24 hours. Just enough so that the healthy, hungry fish could get a bite or two.

I'm using the standard dose for my tank today and then I'll re-evaluate tomorrow evening (12 hours after the second dose) to decide whether or not I need to double the dose. Hopefully they are all going to perk up by tomorrow night. They's some mighty tough fish!

[CrazyAngels]

Toni, hope all goes well for you, seems like they got you the meds in time to quickly get on it. Keeping fingers crossed for you. Take care.

[strawberryblonde]

Thanks Jorge! They have FedEx overnight shipping, and for what it would cost me in gas and time to drive an hour and a half to "try" to get Furan2, it was totally worth the extra money I paid for the shipping.

As of this evening I have 5 discus eating really well and the other 4 are still only taking a bite now and then. But the meds seem to be working so I'm hopeful that they'll all pull through this.

[Second Hand Pat]

Toni, sounds like everything will ok real soon. :)

[Keith Perkins]

If you want some PP just in case you need it let me know. I've got it along with a U.S. version of the BIDKA instructions. I've never tried it on non-discus, but I've had great success with small discus at the prescribed dosage so your other fish might surprise you.

[strawberryblonde]

Thanks Keith, if this doesn't work and they still look bad after the 4 day treatment I'll move to option B and beg you to send me some PP. =)

So far this morning I still have 3 who look bad (2 look very bad, 1 looks a bit dark and still has a lot of patches) and the rest look much improved, though not perfect yet. The good news is that ALL of them begged for breakfast! Even the worst one, the cobalt, dashed to the glass to ask me to feed her and then proceeded to gobble flakes down as soon as they hit the water.

[Second Hand Pat]

Toni, need to continue the Furan 2 until all the fish are clear even if it needs to go beyond the four days. My treatment went 11 days. Seems like all are improving.

[Second Hand Pat]

Manner of fact Toni you might find the fish flashing after the treatment is done due to secondary externals. This would be a good use for the PP.

[strawberryblonde]

Ahhh, thanks for the awesome advice Pat! I had assumed that they'd all be right as rain after the 4 day treatment. I'll go ahead and pick up more Furan2 now so that I have it if I need to extend the treatment.

[jimg]

A few 2% - 3% salt dips between doses would also help

[ktm4us6]

Sorry about your problems, i bought a cheap power generator just in case these things happen.

[strawberryblonde]

A few 2% - 3% salt dips between doses would also help

Thank Jim, I'll remember to do that if I need to go another round of Furan2. Some of the fish bounced back quickly, and for 2-3 of them it seems to be hitting them much harder. The Cobalt is the worst of the lot, even though she's still eating and hanging with the crew she's completely black in color and very patchy still. She's got me worried.

[strawberryblonde]

Sorry about your problems, i bought a cheap power generator just in case these things happen.

Funny you should mention that! I was just getting advice and recommendations for the best size to purchase for my house and tanks. Bought it this morning and it'll be here on Wednesday. =)

[ktm4us6]

I wil have to see if I can run at-least a heater and a air pump on the generator I bought. Menards special. lol.

[jimg]

Thank Jim, I'll remember to do that if I need to go another round of Furan2. Some of the fish bounced back quickly, and for 2-3 of them it seems to be hitting them much harder. The Cobalt is the worst of the lot, even though she's still eating and hanging with the crew she's completely black in color and very patchy still. She's got me worried. try a 3% dip on that one. sometimes the infection get internal so it may be too late for that one. hope all goes well. I had the altums with bad bacterial infections to a point where they were just swimming in circles, bumping into everything and fins rotting down to the body. it took the salt dips to save them, it was a chance because they were barely quarter size altums that came shipped very cold, but it worked. the furan 2 is fine if caught at the very first stages, but after that it has never worked alone for me, same for acriflavin. whenever I see infections on fish I first do salt dips or 2nd choice pp then into anti bio. I prefer furanace. sometimes the infection gets into the gills and internal, then it's a pot luck chance of survival. If it were me I would salt dip each one 1x a day.
hope they make it

[strawberryblonde]

Alrighty Jim, I'm ready to try anything with the Cobalt, she's heading downhill in a big hurry. The others still have patches, but are active, hungry and normal colors. Worst part is that this was probably brewing for the entire week after the power outage, but I didn't notice it till the first patch showed up and by then it was spreading like wildfire. UGH!

So, need help with the salt dip. I'm planning on using a bucket for the dip. If I use 2 gallons of water, how much salt do I add to get a 3% solution? How long do I leave her in the bath?

[jimg]

I do 7.5 tbs per gal. put it in it will tend to lay on it's side but keep pushing it around until it no longer uprights, maybe 3-7 minutes then into clean water. sometimes they make it up to 10-15 minutes sometimes 3 minutes. it's a chance it may put it over the edge, but if it does it was a goner anyway. good luck.
just a note. many do much less salt for longer periods, I have tried that many times but prefer the 3% as I have had the best results that way.
mine may of had different problems, but it worked on discus and altums so I stick with it.

[strawberryblonde]

Ok Jim, I'm off to salt my fish. I prefer salted fish on a bun, but in this case I think I'll just leave in the water. LOL

[jimg]

how'd it go?

[strawberryblonde]

Wish I could say that it was a smashing success...sadly, she's not any better today than she was prior to the salt dip.

She managed 4 minutes in the dip with me nudging her around before she rolled, then went into nice clean water. I really had my fingers crossed that it was going to help. On the plus side, her appetite is good and she's not hiding, flashing or doing anything unusual. She's just very dark and still covered in patches.

I'm up to day 4 of the Furan2 treatment Jim. So far 5 fish look fairly patch free and are lively and acting normal. The other 4 haven't shown any improvement on the antibiotic regimen. I'm holding to 50 - 75% WC per day, VERY light feedings twice a day, have cleaned all filters twice and I've redosed the tank with Furan2 after each WC.

Is there anything else I can do, or do I just keep up with huge water changes and wait it out? For sick fish they certainly aren't acting sick at all. Just look patchy. LOL

Ohhhhh, forgot to mention that I've held the temps at 81.5 since last Thursday. I plan on holding it there till they either improve or kick the bucket. No salt in the tank at this point. Had it well salted from the minute I saw the first patch till Sunday.

[jimg]

I would do salt dips 1x a day for 3 days. I like furanace better than furan 2.

[strawberryblonde]

I'm planning on giving the cobalt another salty bath tomorrow.

I'm finally seeing some positive progress! Did my usual WC at 5pm tonight, and an hour later the discus were all doing their usual begging for food dance. And there was the cobalt, dancing right along with them! I actually didn't realize it was her because her color was so nice and light again and she blended right in with the flachens. LOL

She was one of the first to attack the food and once she let me get close enough to look at her I could see that she's lost some of the patches, as well as ALL of the "pimples" she had.

So I think we're turning a corner with her, hence her return to the salty bucket tomorrow morning.

Thanks for all the encouragement and help Jim. This is one of the scariest things I've ever been through with my fish. They've been SO darned healthy for the last 14 months that I've taken it for granted that they'd always remain healthy.

[Second Hand Pat]

Happy news indeed Toni :)

[JenTN]

Ive been following this, so glad things are looking up!

[Keith Perkins]

Happy news indeed Toni :)


Ive been following this, so glad things are looking up!

+1

[Elliots]

Jim G , for future reference tbs means table spoons I hope. Is that a heaping or a flattened tablespoon? I do not want to sound ignorant as I have never used salt treatments for fish, what kind os salt? Table salt, iodized salt, sea salt, salt for a salt water tank or what?

[Elliots]

I misspelled, that is what kind of salt?

[Brent1972]

I misspelled, that is what kind of salt?

Any salt will do .

[strawberryblonde]

Another quick update on the progress of my discus.

I deferred on putting more Furan2 into the water once the 4 day treatment was done. Instead, I've started doing huge WC's twice a day. I manage about 80% in the morning and 75% at night. Still feeding fairly lightly (even though they're begging for more), no more salt dips after yesterday salt bath for my cobalt.

With each water change they all lighten up just a bit more, including the cobalt and as of tonight at bedtime I can only find one very small patch on my RT and my FlachenSS...and just 3 itsy bitsy patches on the cobalt!!!!!

I'm planning to continue with the water changes until all visible signs of the bacteria are gone, and even then I'll probably still do one big WC per day because I'm just that paranoid. LOL

I can't believe that my cobalt actually pulled through this considering how she looked on Sunday and Monday. It's truly a testament to you experts knowing exactly which med to use, how to use it, what else to do to help (salt dips, lower temps, lights off, etc).

You're my heroes. =)

[Second Hand Pat]

Most excellent Toni, good work on your part too.

[strawberryblonde]

Oh my gosh Pat, you're still awake! LOL

[Second Hand Pat]

Yup, silly me. Leaving in the morning and can't sleep.

[jimg]

Glad to hear it worked out. I would continue the furan for at least 3 more days though. if you feel comfortable stopping then stop, but I like to use anti bio for at least 7 days. Massive wc's are a good idea too so it may work fine for you.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Jim, even better news today...NO patches, 2 big water changes and they're all normal colors, eating like pigs again and swimming happily in a nice little group!

I decided against more Furan2 just because I may need to use it again sometime in the future and I don't want them to build up any immunities to it. So long as they stay symptom free I'll go with lots of water for now. =)

[Keith Perkins]

Toni - they are a lot more likely to build up immunities if you don't quite knock something out than if you treat them more days in a row. I give you lots of credit for the immunities concerns though.

[Orange Crush]

Toni - they are a lot more likely to build up immunities if you don't quite knock something out than if you treat them more days in a row. I give you lots of credit for the immunities concerns though.
+1
Any bacteria that remains will have a resistance to the medication in the future (mutations). Your best bet is to make sure you get it all. That is why a doctor will prescribe an antibiotic to be taken for 10-14 days even if you feel better after 5 days.
Glad to hear that your fish are much better. :)

[strawberryblonde]

Very true guys, but in the case of fish bacteria, there's no such thing as killing it all. It's always going to be present in the tank. The best we all can hope for is to keep our fish healthy so that they have a strong immune system to resist the bacteria/pathogens.

I know that the easiest thing to do is to keep medicating, but I've had to balance that against the fact that they no longer have any signs of infection, are swimming actively and eating robustly. The large water changes are controlling the possibility of another large outbreak of the bacteria in the water column (and on surfaces) and the fish seem to be responding well to it.

I'm not a fish disease expert so this is just my own intuition and life experience talking here. I might be completely wrong, lord knows I've had to learn the hard way many times in the last 50 years, but I'm trusting my gut on this one.

[jimg]

I think you will be fine.I have always given anti bio a few extra days so I can't give an proven answer on just 4 days use.
just a note, not all anti bio are 10 day there are 4 day treatments prescribed too. so 7-10 days is not law!

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Jim!

So far, so good. I have a lively tank of hungry fish today and still no further signs of any sort of infection or other malady. Only lost one fish in all of this... a 4 year old jumbo neon. I don't blame the outbreak though, he was just plain old and I'm sure the added salt and furan didn't help him out any.

Here they are - just ran out and took pics. I was hoping for a peaceful group shot, but they were busy "rushing" me all around the tank and wouldn't hold still. They want more food. LOL

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Thanks for helping me save my babies Jim! =)

[jimg]

Wow no wonder you were so worried! nice discus collection! glad it all went fine.

[CrazyAngels]

Congrats on getting your crew back to health Toni, I'm so happy for you. I also agree with Jim, those discus are very nice indeed.

[Eddie]

Awesome work! Great job in saving those beauty's!

[strawberryblonde]

Thanks Eddie! Did you know that Furan2 is an aphrodisiac? Uh huh, I didn't either, but I had wrigglers in my tank two days ago and more eggs today. LOL

[Orange Crush]

They prob were wanting to spawn before but did not feel up to it until they were given medicine for what ailed them. lol

[Eddie]

Thanks Eddie! Did you know that Furan2 is an aphrodisiac? Uh huh, I didn't either, but I had wrigglers in my tank two days ago and more eggs today. LOL

Probably made them feel a little too good. LOL