discus poop question

[lilit]

i just got 2 small discus today. and ive noticed that one of them is pooping alot and the poop isnt 100% solid. it has sections of stringy white.
i know that white poop is a sign of intestinal worms. does that mean that my discus are internal parasites? how do i treat it? i'm planing on getting nutrafin discus granules because it has 7% garlic in it. is there anything else i can do?
any good meds to recommend?

[Brent1972]

Before adding meds I would give them time to settle and eat properly , When they have full belly's see how there poo is .

[lilit]

thank you, i think i will wait a couple of days before adding any meds. they arent eating now because they are probably still getting use to the new tank.

however, im still looking for advice about medication.

[Brent1972]

If you are from the US I can't help with meds I only know the uk ones . I use fluke-solve(a soluble praziquantel) that is good with fluke and intestinal tapeworms or wormer plus(flubendazole) .

[Lenin]

I use this for parasite control when I get discus and then I find something is wrong http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23589&cmpid=03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA%26CAWELAID%3D1059619250, you can get it at any petsmart.
Try frozen bloodworms to see if they eat them, it's usually a good starter when they don't want to eat, just don't make it a habit of feeding it.

How small are the Discus?

[DiscusDrew]

There's kind of a lot to address, first off if those are your only two discus you are bound to have aggression problems as they are schooling fish. Second white poop could be a sign of intestinal flagellates or an intestinal nematode. AFTER giving them a week or so to settle in and start eating normal and change water daily preferably aged and around 84-86 degrees temp, see how their poop looks, if you still see white stringy feces crank up the temp to around 90 and dose metronidazole at 400Mg/10 gal for 7-10 days with water changes every day. If after that they do not perk up give them a few days of clean water and begin nematode treatment with prazi or other dewormer. Note that prazi can be used with metro at the same time.... Try good clean water and good foods first though, unnecessary medicating can cause more harm than good.

[Orange Crush]

My 2 cents:
I would not tell someone what med to use until their fish have had some settling in time and they fill out a disease questionare. Otherwise there is not enough info to diagnose properly and you might suggest the wrong med/treatment. Also, they might start using meds when it may turn out to be unnecessary. :(

[DiscusDrew]

Read the entirety of the post, stated clearly that allowing the fish time with a proper water change schedule and feeding schedule comes first. Well if it wasn't clear hopefully this makes it so.

[Orange Crush]

Read the entirety of the post, stated clearly that allowing the fish time with a proper water change schedule and feeding schedule comes first. Well if it wasn't clear hopefully this makes it so.
I did, it is great that you suggested "allowing the fish time with a proper water change schedule and feeding schedule". I'm just saying that telling someone what meds they could use is premature and possibly irresponsible since many new people run out and start medicating as soon as they get the info, often with disasterous effects. Just trying to prevent that.

[jimg]

There's kind of a lot to address, first off if those are your only two discus you are bound to have aggression problems as they are schooling fish. Second white poop could be a sign of intestinal flagellates or an intestinal nematode. AFTER giving them a week or so to settle in and start eating normal and change water daily preferably aged and around 84-86 degrees temp, see how their poop looks, if you still see white stringy feces crank up the temp to around 90 and dose metronidazole at 400Mg/10 gal for 7-10 days with water changes every day. If after that they do not perk up give them a few days of clean water and begin nematode treatment with prazi or other dewormer. Note that prazi can be used with metro at the same time.... Try good clean water and good foods first though, unnecessary medicating can cause more harm than good. +1 I agree try some frozen brine shrimp too

[Orange Crush]

My bad. I guess it is okay to tell peole what meds to use without knowing anything about the water perams, feeding schedule, QT procedures, water change schedule, age and size of fish, how old the tank set up is, if the tank is cycled, what other fish are in there, etc....
CARRY ON!

[DiscusDrew]

I did, it is great that you suggested "allowing the fish time with a proper water change schedule and feeding schedule". I'm just saying that telling someone what meds they could use is premature and possibly irresponsible since many new people run out and start medicating as soon as they get the info, often with disasterous effects. Just trying to prevent that.
Well I understand your concern, my advice was based on following exactly what I said and in the order I said it to be done. There are a limited number if reasons for white stringy feces. If proper water changes, stocking, and feeding is followed... Which I emphasize again needs to be addressed first, then I stand by my advice but it is just that. All are welcome to read about causes of intestinal issues and discoloration of feces, two possible outcomes if all else mentioned earlier is done correctly, in which case the treatment course I recommended if necessary is gentle and effective.

P.S. To OP, do NOT make the mistake that OC is talking about because yes, that would be premature and like I said in my original post meds are not a cure all and you can make things worse instead of better if you do not follow the directions given.

[DiscusDrew]

My bad. I guess it is okay to tell peole what meds to use without knowing anything about the water perams, feeding schedule, QT procedures, water change schedule, age and size of fish, how old the tank set up is, if the tank is cycled, what other fish are in there, etc....
CARRY ON!
Ok ok OC haha, yes, ideally I would have liked to see all parameters and more info first. Fact still remains that a lot can be excluded without the info simply based on what causes white feces. But in order to better serve the OP I should have been willing to address all the potential issues in the tank with the use of more information. OP if you would be willing to post the disease questionnaire in here with your answers I would be happy to confirm or amend my coarse of treatment for you. Just in case anything else is out of whack I would like to see.

[Orange Crush]

Ok ok OC haha, yes, ideally I would have liked to see all parameters and more info first. Fact still remains that a lot can be excluded without the info simply based on what causes white feces. But in order to better serve the OP I should have been willing to address all the potential issues in the tank with the use of more information. OP if you would be willing to post the disease questionnaire in here with your answers I would be happy to confirm or amend my coarse of treatment for you. Just in case anything else is out of whack I would like to see.
You are pretty knowledgeable so, I don't want you to think I was questioning your diagnostic/treatment skills. It's just that many Americans have a tendency to take the easy way out. If they can give a "pill" rather than put in the time and effort to fix the water/food/etc. they often will. :(
It is entirely possible that given some time and proper care no meds will be necessary or that some other health issue will come to light that will require a totally diff treatment regime.

[DiscusDrew]

You are pretty knowledgeable so, I don't want you to think I was questioning your diagnostic/treatment skills. It's just that many Americans have a tendency to take the easy way out. If they can give a "pill" rather than put in the time and effort to fix the water/food/etc. they often will. :(
It is entirely possible that given some time and proper care no meds will be necessary or that some other health issue will come to light that will require a totally diff treatment regime.
God bless our McDonalds society haha, no worries OC I had no intention of taking it to heart that much ;) I respect and think the world of you so I wouldn't ever expect anything less.

[Orange Crush]

74389

[DiscusDrew]

LOL Ohhh so true, and our doctors (most not all) just continue to let it happen.... At times even cause it to happen.

[lilit]

that you everyone for your replies.
I went ahead and put 4 table spoons of epsom salt in the 55gallon. was this the wrong thing to do? its day 2 and they are not eating, but their colours seem healthy.

water parameters are 29/30 degrees celcious, 6.5 ph, medium hardness

[lilit]

they are hiding behind things, so i tryed feeding them beef heart and blood worms with a pipet. they still didnt eat, the food just floated right by their eyes and they didnt go for it :(

[Orange Crush]

that you everyone for your replies.
I went ahead and put 4 table spoons of epsom salt in the 55gallon. was this the wrong thing to do? its day 2 and they are not eating, but their colours seem healthy.

water parameters are 29/30 degrees celcious, 6.5 ph, medium hardness
-What is your ammonia, nitrIte, & nitrAte levels?
-How long has your tank been set up?
-Is your tank cycled?
-Do you have any other fish in the tank besides the ones you just bought?
-How often are you doing water changes? How much are you changing each time?

Do lots of water changes. Don't try to medicate, add salt, yet until we know more. Besides, sometimes they just need time to settle in (sometimes it can take up to 2 weeks) and lots of clean water.

[lilit]

-What is your ammonia, nitrIte, & nitrAte levels?
-How long has your tank been set up?
-Is your tank cycled?
-Do you have any other fish in the tank besides the ones you just bought?
-How often are you doing water changes? How much are you changing each time?

Do lots of water changes. Don't try to medicate, add salt, yet until we know more. Besides, sometimes they just need time to settle in (sometimes it can take up to 2 weeks) and lots of clean water.

ammonia, nitrite and nitrate 0 or close to 0.
for about 3 months
cycled for about a month, then started by adding bristlenose and a few tetras
before the discus, I have a few tetras and 3 bristlenoses
50% every 2 weeks before the discus..now that i have the discus i will be doing it twice a week

Is there any negative effects with epsom salt? about when should they start feeling comfortable enough to eat?

[lilit]

twice a week about 20-30%

[Orange Crush]

ammonia, nitrite and nitrate 0 or close to 0.
for about 3 months
cycled for about a month, then started by adding bristlenose and a few tetras
before the discus, I have a few tetras and 3 bristlenoses
50% every 2 weeks before the discus..now that i have the discus i will be doing it twice a week

Is there any negative effects with epsom salt? about when should they start feeling comfortable enough to eat?
So you added the 2 small discus to the tank with all of your other fish without QT them?
Is this the same 55 gal mentioned on a diff thread of yours that already had 5 discus, 15 tetras and the bristlenose?

With the way you described their poo, it is possible that you are dealing with internal parasites. Epsom will not really hurt them but it is more for bloat, wont help with parasites as far as I know. It does have a laxitive effect.

How small are these 2 new ones? If you do have the other discus in that tank, how big are they?
It sounds like the new ones are juvies which means they need DAILY water changes.
Any fish that are sick/potentially sick also should have DAILY water changes.

Poor water quality will cause many illnesses and fixing water quality will cure many illnesses. Discus are extremely picky about water quality. They have almost no tolerance for nitrAte, nitrtIte or ammonia. All fish have some bacteria and parasites in them at all times (which ones varies from fish to fish). They either have an immunity to it or they are healthy enough to fight it so they are not sick. However, when they get stressed from being picked on, poor nutrition, poor water quality, or something else, then the bacteria/parasite can overwhelm the immune system and the fish gets sick. getting the water clean helps to strenghten their immune system and helps them to fight it.

This is also why quaranteening fish for 6-8 weeks is so important. Just because a fish looks healthy when you buy it does not mean it is not harboring something. The stress of transportation and putting it into it's new home can often trigger an outbreak. Also, the fish might have a hidden illness that your existing stock has never been exposed to and it can make them sick when exposed. Read here for proper QT http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...Kenny-s-Discus .

Also, it is never a good idea to medicate without knowing exactly what you are dealing with as this will also weaken their immune system (medicine=stress) so you have to make sure it is the right med to the best of your knowledge.

[lilit]

I got rid of all my fish because we renovated our house and had to move the tank to another room. I only kept the bristlenoses and 6 tetras. i got these 2 yesterday. they are 7ish cm in diameter. Im not an expert im learning as I go. i dont have a QT tank because im a uni student and dont have much money. my GF actually bought me the 2 discus as a gift so i wasn't expecting them on the day that i got them.

I wont add anything more than the epsom salt for a week- and ill see how i go with the daily water changes with time. I just freaked out a little when i realized that they might have an internal parasite.

[Orange Crush]

I wont add anything more than the epsom salt for a week- and ill see how i go with the daily water changes with time. I just freaked out a little when i realized that they might have an internal parasite.
I would not use the epsom, it will not do anything for your discus unless they are bloated/constipated. (swollen stomach/eating but nothing coming out).
Keep up with daily water changes of at least 50%. Discus can go a couple weeks without food but continue trying to feed them. Ideally they should be fed several times a day at that size. But seeing as they have no interest in food, I would give them very little at feeding time if they do not eat it (helps to maintain water quality) and then vacuum out the rest (unless the tetras/bn eat it).
If they get worse or if after a week or so with large daily wc's there is still no improvement let us know ASAP. Then we should talk meds.

[lilit]

I would not use the epsom, it will not do anything for your discus unless they are bloated/constipated. (swollen stomach/eating but nothing coming out).
Keep up with daily water changes of at least 50%. Discus can go a couple weeks without food but continue trying to feed them. Ideally they should be fed several times a day at that size. But seeing as they have no interest in food, I would give them very little at feeding time if they do not eat it (helps to maintain water quality) and then vacuum out the rest (unless the tetras/bn eat it).
If they get worse or if after a week or so with large daily wc's there is still no improvement let us know ASAP. Then we should talk meds.

thanks for the info. this forum is a great help.

[Orange Crush]

Also you really should get a small (10 or 20 gal) hospital/QT tank. When you medicate your fish it is best to only medicate those who need it and it saves money when you only have to medicate a dose for 10-20 gal vs. 55 gal.
Right now Petco is having a $/gal sale so a 10 gal tank will only cost $10 and a 20 gal is $20 (though July 21st I think). You don't have to leave this tank set up all the time, only when you need it if space is an issue.
I keep an extra filter or foam insert in my filters in all of my tanks so that if I should ever have to medicate a fish I have a cycled sponge or foam (from the tank they are in) with a BB colony to use in the hospital tank. Instant cycling.
It is always best to have spare tanks, filters, heaters, etc. so if anything breaks down you can fix it right away. The added bonus is if you need to put a fish in the spare tank for treatment you have all the equip you need.

[DiscusDrew]

See its stuff like that that really I find incredibly frustrating, no regard to the basics of any of discus keeping but then you want very readily to throw stuff into the tank...

Anyway, I would still like you to ACTUALLY test your water perameters and fill out the disease questionaire, but for now I agree with OC, you need to be doing daily 50% water changes or more, and you need to start reading. Because before you start following the basics of this hobby there will never be an end to your struggle with discus. There is still a lot of questions unanswered so PLEASE fill out the form.

NO epsom salt, NO medications, NO more anything in the tank but fresh clean water until we see how they react. Again if you had actually followed the original advice given this is what you would have been doing already for a week until we saw how your fish reacted to being cared for properly.

[DiscusDrew]

And yeah, the same parasites you might have are the ones I listed at the beginning, that fact has not changed. But your fish will ALWAYS carry some kind of pathogen most likely, the thing is that their immune system should be able to fight it on their own if they are taken care of properly. SO, the idea here is that you take care of the tank for a period of time so they can actually recover on their own, then if in a week or so they still need help or any other symptoms have developed then we can take it from there.

[lilit]

I thought i would take some pictures so people know exactly what im talking about. since the last time i posted on here, ive done 2 water changes. also ive beed feeding them twice a day and they are still not eating :( ..a tiny bits of blood worm and beef heart
I have stoped with the epsom salt and havent added anything but clean water with seachem discus buffer
I will test the water perameters exactly and fill the questionaire within the next 24 hrs

http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5295/img2012062919372.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/513/img2012062919372.jpg/)

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/8475/img20120629191933.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/img20120629191933.jpg/)

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/8486/img20120629192055.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/856/img20120629192055.jpg/)

[Orange Crush]

Do not use discus buffer unless you are using RO (not tap or well water). It is not a tap water conditioner. YOU NEED TO USE A TAP WATER CONDITIONER WITH EVERY WATER CHANGE. Remove water from tank then treat the water going into the tank just before you put it in with something like Seachem's Safe or Prime.
Please fill out the disease questionare so we know everything you are doing so we can help you care for your discus properly. (copy and paste) http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?38545-Disease-Questionnaire-please-complete

[Eddie]

My 2 cents:
I would not tell someone what med to use until their fish have had some settling in time and they fill out a disease questionare. Otherwise there is not enough info to diagnose properly and you might suggest the wrong med/treatment. Also, they might start using meds when it may turn out to be unnecessary. :(

Truth!

[lilit]

of course i use tap water conditioner -.-

they r looking alot more active and happier now, they are swimming around rather than hovering behind things. although still not eating. I am going to do a water change some time today and will do the disease form asap. how can i make them eat :(

[Orange Crush]

of course i use tap water conditioner -.-
Just checking, some people do not realize they need it.


they r looking alot more active and happier now, they are swimming around rather than hovering behind things.
Yea!!!:D

although still not eating. I am going to do a water change some time today and will do the disease form asap. how can i make them eat
:(
Sometimes they will not eat until they feel better. Either large daily water changes for a while or medicine. We can help you better by knowing everything on the disease questionare.

[lilit]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started
bought 2 new fish and that same day noticed that one of them has white poop.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)
colours dark at times, not eating, hiding sometimes, flashing fins a little bit (um those long thin fins under their heads, sorry dont know what they are called)

3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.
4 Table spoons of Epsom salt for 55 gallons = 1day

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
55 gallons. Tank is very old, got it second had from a friend who also got it second hand. I use to have other fish but decided it was time for the challenge of discus. Right now there is 2 discus, 6 tetras and 3 brsitlnoses. I am planning on only keeping 1 bristlenose and getting 2 more discus when they are better.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?
water change usually twice a week however have being doing it daily for the past 3 days. Been running for 3-4 months, sand. I don’t age water, I just add tap water conditioner (API stress coat) and seachem discus buffer (however I am going to switch to acid regulator)


6 Parameters and water source;

- temp: 25 degrees celcious (I have my heater set at 30 so i was really upset about this. i think its because i dont have much water flow around where the heater is placed. I have now put the heater near the outlet of the filter to see if the water flow helps the heater heat the water better. If not, i will have to get a 2nd heater)

- ph: 6.4 (i should gradually take this down to about 5.5?)

- ammonia reading: 0

- nitrite reading: 0

- nitrate reading: 0

- well water: not sure what this means

- municipal water: not sure what this means

7. Any new fish/plants added recently
no

[jimg]

discus ime should be treated as a precaution anyway, especially if they have white feces. regardless of questionnaire white feces is white feces. if you have well water you may not need safe or similar. well water is you have a well on your property, municipal means it comes from water mains in the street.
try to get all info completely so that whatever may have stressed them to weaken them to a point where pathogens/bacteria may have gotten the best of them can be addressed.

[DiscusDrew]

And no you should not drop the Ph of the water to 5.5 consistency is what matters, I would like to know your water perameters out of the tap. Stop messing with the water is what i'm saying, you aren't breeding or raising wilds so they can most likely do great in your tap water.

[lilit]

And no you should not drop the Ph of the water to 5.5 consistency is what matters, I would like to know your water perameters out of the tap. Stop messing with the water is what i'm saying, you aren't breeding or raising wilds so they can most likely do great in your tap water.

my tap water is like 8-9 ph and really hard. just thought it would be a good idea to take the ph down to help with the internal parasite

[Eddie]

Both the fish in the pictures are infested with internal bugs, whether it be flagellates or nematodes. I'd clean them up but it may not make any difference. They won't grow to full adult size.