Is this a sign of skin flukes or just scales missing?

[typicalalex1]

Hi everyone.
I have noticed that the behavior in one of my discus has changed over the past week or so.
It isn't eating as much and sometimes turns quite dark. It also has some white patches on its body, i cant tell if it is from brushing against wood or not.
3 of my other discus also have these patches and im a little concerned.

The discus in the first picture is also turns dark occasionally but the other 2 do not.

The one in the third picture doesn't show up as well but i can still just see it.

I shrugged this off at first because there was a fish that was chasing the discus and stressing them out. This was removed over a week ago and the patches were not there when it was removed.
I haven't seen them brushing up against any rock / wood but they do sometimes do it to the plants.

W/Cs done 3/4 times a week, 80% every time. This is with treated tap water. There are no big swings in temperature, only 1-2 degrees when the W/Cs are done. No fish, plants or decor has been added for at least 3 months.
Water temp is a constant 82. It has been warmer than usual outside which has caused this to rise to no more than 84.

Don't think i have missed anything, if you need any more info, let me know.
744257442474423

[Eddie]

This looks like something is definitely irritating the skin. Could be flukes but it could be any external parasite or protozoa. The first and third picture are giving me indication of such, either parasite or protozoa. You can tell by the dull coloration and eyes, darkening, clamped fins. I'd fill out the disease questionnaire and see what might be causing the issue.

[typicalalex1]

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started

White patches on the skin, 4 of the discus have those, 2 and turning dark with 1 of these not eating much.
Fins are clamping and this happens on the discus that do not have the patches as well.
Patches have been there for between 1-2 weeks.



2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)

As above




3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment.

none



Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish

60 uk gallons, been setup for over a year. 6 discus, 4 are adults and 2 sub adults.


BNPs in the tank breeding, tetras, 2 gouramis, flying fox and corys.

5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?

80% 3/4 times a week. Tank has been up over a year. Gravel bottom, all of the water changes are done while gravel cleaning. Not aged water.

6 Parameters and water source;

- temp 82

- ph unknown

- ammonia reading not checked

- nitrite reading not checked

- nitrate reading not checked

- well water ____

- municipal water ____

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

not for months

[DiscusDrew]

Test your water parameters, that's the most important part of that survey. Your tank is also over stocked, so more water changes couldn't hurt, at the very least do them sally while your fish are sick. AFTER that and you make sure there are no ammonia or nitrites then treat with malachite green ... Just my recommendation. Pro form C and quick cure are good options, both contain formalin as well

[strawberryblonde]

Test your water parameters, that's the most important part of that survey. Your tank is also over stocked, so more water changes couldn't hurt, at the very least do them sally while your fish are sick. AFTER that and you make sure there are no ammonia or nitrites then treat with malachite green ... Just my recommendation. Pro form C and quick cure are good options, both contain formalin as well

I actually wouldn't treat with formalin on the off chance that they have a bacterial infection. Formalin can be deadly in those instances.

[DiscusDrew]

If your worried about it use pure malachite green. Orderable from kens fish, jehmco, and aquabid. I personally do not suspect any serious bacterial issue, which is what it would take for formalin to have a negative effect, but play it safe, your call... Its the malachite green that is important. And again PLEASE check your water parameters before doing any of this. We need to exclude that as a problem or you will just keep having issues, also start a daily water change schedule first.

[jerman]

Could these be bite marks from the other discus. Whenever my guys lay some eggs, the pair go at it and give eachother marks just like your pics. And stop eating, go a little dark

[Brent1972]

Have you tested your water parameters ? IMO water changes are good and for a 60 uk gal (272ltr) tank you are not overstocked. Picture 1 looks like Hith , with the holes appearing by the eyes and on the head . Picture 2 and 3 are difficult to tell they could be external parasite but as jerman said it could be injurys.

[typicalalex1]

Thanks guys.
My parameters:
Ph - 7.6
Nitrite - 0
Nitrate - <20
I don't have a test for ammonia

[typicalalex1]

Could these be bite marks from the other discus. Whenever my guys lay some eggs, the pair go at it and give eachother marks just like your pics. And stop eating, go a little dark

They can't be bite marks. The discus in the first photo is the boss, bigger than the rest and nothing touches him.

[Orange Crush]

Your tank is overstocked (discus need 10 gallons each and the volume of your tank is really <60 gallons since you have substrate, wood, plants etc. taking up a fair amount of the volume of the tank) but that can be compensated for by large daily water changes. However, that situation leaves little room for error in your husbandry.
At this point I would definetly be doing large daily water changes to see if you can get their immune systems to kick in. Clean water strenghtens their immune system, unclean water stresses them out and will cause health problems.
If you nitrAtes are close to 20 then you are definatly not doing enough water changes. NitrAtes should always be <5 ppm to avoid stressing them out.

[Second Hand Pat]

Maybe overstocked a little. 60 UK gallons is about 72 US gallons. Wonder if those wounds are BNP bite marks since you have some breeding in the tank. Once this is figured out typicalalex1 can you up your WCs (which would be useful now) and feedings. Look at the forehead of the fish in the first picture.

Can you relocate the BNP to a temporary tank to rule them out as a bite source?

[Brent1972]

Your tank is overstocked (discus need 10 gallons each and the volume of your tank is really <60 gallons since you have substrate, wood, plants etc. taking up a fair amount of the volume of the tank) but that can be compensated for by large daily water changes. However, that situation leaves little room for error in your husbandry.
At this point I would definetly be doing large daily water changes to see if you can get their immune systems to kick in. Clean water strenghtens their immune system, unclean water stresses them out and will cause health problems.
If you nitrAtes are close to 20 then you are definatly not doing enough water changes. NitrAtes should always be <5 ppm to avoid stressing them out.

Can you explain why nitrates must be below 5ppm :confused: , 20ppm is what most people aim for and stendker say less than 50ppm on his web site is fine.

[typicalalex1]

Maybe overstocked a little. 60 UK gallons is about 72 US gallons. Wonder if those wounds are BNP bite marks since you have some breeding in the tank. Once this is figured out typicalalex1 can you up your WCs (which would be useful now) and feedings. Look at the forehead of the fish in the first picture.

Can you relocate the BNP to a temporary tank to rule them out as a bite source?

I guess it could be that. There are fry in the breeding cave. They have been breeding for 6months plus and never seen marks before now. They have had at least 8 successful breeding attempts.

In regards to moving them, that isn't possible.
I may have time for a 100% wc tomorrow. If not it will be 80% everyday in the week.

I may try getting some blackworms for them to see if that will help but not seen many suppliers until now.

I will up my feedin and wc and see what happens.

[DiscusDrew]

I still suspect Eddies original diagnosis to be true... That said I would still up feeding and water changes, but I would recommend a course of malachite green still...

[DiscusDrew]

Then again... In my home... There would have already been a skin scrape done and several slides prepared for the microscope. That is your best tool as a hobbyist for disease diagnosis. That said, my most educated guess (based off the pictures) is what I said before.

[Orange Crush]

Can you explain why nitrates must be below 5ppm :confused: , 20ppm is what most people aim for and stendker say less than 50ppm on his web site is fine.
There are always going to be differing opinions out there. Many of the long term successful discus owners on here try to keep it less than 5. They can live with 20ppm but they will be stressed from it. There is a difference between living and thriving (stressed vs. not stressed). If they have no other stressers they will be more tolerant of nitrAtes than if there are other stressors to them. If your discus are sick then they have been stressed. Water quality is one of the things that is in your control to fix by doing water changes. If you can keep their water pH stable, temp stable, no microbubbles by aging water, no ammonia, nitrItes and nitrAtes <5ppm then you have done a lot towards keeping them healthy!

[Eddie]

Im still going with external protozoa on these guys. You can't treat them effectively in the current tank without causing mass die off of your other fish and the treatment effectiveness would be reduced since its a substrate/show tank. Then take into account the bio filtration being knocked back.

Bare tank, no filtration, air stone, heater, discus and treatment.