New Discus keeper - Did I buy stunted discus?

[Crystalwaters]

Hi everyone, I am a new member, but have used this site as a resource in my research about discus. About a week ago, I ordered in some "mixed" young discus (1-1.5"). I was prepared for their lack of color, but they arrived very thin. Fed them 4 times daily and 5 of the 7 were gaining weight, 2 weren't well and died. Almost daily 30%water changes, daily is my goal but sometimes I miss a day. Also cleaning the filter every 2 days.
I was researching why I lost the 2 discus, so I could learn for next time, and found wonderful stickies on this forum about purchasing discus. I'm afraid I've purchased stunted fish :(

If I could get an expert opinion, I would appreciate it. I have not seen discus this young before to know if they are stunted.

//s1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Discus/

Thanks again. And thanks to all the members of the site for the valuable information!

[Skip]

welcome to SD..

but to answer your question..

they are stunted, poor shapes..

[Crystalwaters]

Thank you! This site has been a wealth of information for me, I look forward to visiting often :D

[Jaysuuun]

I'm no discus expert, but all of those fish look stunted. I'm a discus newbie myself, so when I purchased my first batch of discus I ended up with a couple of stunted fish. That was before I learned about this site and began to research about shape, pinched foreheads and eye sizing. I'm happy to say that my newer additions to the tank have been better choices. ;)

[strawberryblonde]

Hi and welcome to the site!

It's really difficult to have success with such young discus on your first try at keeping discus. They have a steep learning curve even for the larger sub-adult and adult discus. Juveniles are double or triple the effort and work!

I'm not an expert on what a 1" discus should look like so I can't really tell you for sure that yours are stunted, but some of them do look skinny and at least one is what I would call stunted (looks like it's probably a blue turq - look for the one with the big eyes).

I know that shape changes as they grow, just not sure if the football shapes you have are going to change or not.

Ok, so now for the things I do know! LOL

1) Juveniles should be raised in what's called a barebottom "growout" tank. This is to make it easier on you to give them proper feedings and tank cleanings. It's a rigorous schedule and a planted tank with gravel is a recipe for disaster.

2) Water changes: You'll need to do at least 1 HUGE water change per day, preferably 2 large ones per day. When I say HUGE, I mean that most people here who have success change 90% at each WC. This is vital for these little guys and you won't get good growth and health without it. Just put them into a smallish tank for now...you could easily use a 20 gallon for 5 discus of that size. This will make cleanings and water changes much quicker and easier for you.

3) If it was me, I'd be feeding them at least 6 small meals per day. They'll eat beefheart, small pellets, discus flake foods, freeze dried blackworms, etc. I'd stay away from bloodworms only because they will quickly start refusing other foods in favor of the bloodworms.

4) During the daily water change, be sure to wipe down the inside of the tank with paper towels.

Once they are in their own tank, set the temps between 83 - 86 degrees.

Once they've grown another inch or two you'll be able to tell whether or not they are stunted. Good luck with them. =)

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks again, both. Strawberry, thanks for the advice. I decided to put them in a large planted tank in hopes that it would make them more comfortable (hiding spots) and the tank water would have greater stability. I was also under the impression that doing large water changes would stress out the fish. They have been eating frozen thawed blood worms, and a frozen mix of BS, cyclops, watercress, BW. The tank is 85F :D

Since getting them, I learned that large water changes will not stress the fish and they will actually appreciate it. My significant other and friends have also been encouraging me to move them to a smaller bare bottom tank. It makes sense! My water changes take a long time in a 55 gallon and my plants are dying due to the lack of nutrients in the water, making the debris worse.

Looks like I have some work to do! :D I can move them today, have a healthy established 20 gallon ready!

[strawberryblonde]

Looks like I have some work to do! :D I can move them today, have a healthy established 20 gallon ready!

It's awesome that you have a tank ready to go for them! =)

I hear you on the idea that a larger tank with hiding places would be better for them. It's a pretty common mistake that we all make based on our experiences with other tropical fish. I tried a very lightly planted tank last year when I bought my first discus (4 inch sub-adults). Let me tell ya, it was a pain in the NECK to try to keep that thing clean and took forever to do the water changes what with all the vacuuming and moving stuff around every night...ugh.

Best thing I ever did was to rescape that tank and get rid of the plants and gravel! When yours get to 4" you can think about adding a small layer of sand and some driftwood just to pretty things up for them.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh wait! Forgot to mention that you'll need to paint the bottom of the tank white! I used a simple flat wall paint (latex) in antique white (cuz that's the only light color I had in my house) when I set up my current growout tank a few weeks ago.

The paint will eliminate the reflective quality of the glass so they don't freak out and see their reflections staring up at them. LOL

If you have the 20g ready to go, just empty the water, set the filter/s or filter materials into a bucket of tank water while you paint and voila, it'll be dry and ready to use in an hour or so.

If you don't have paint, some people use white posterboard and tape it to the bottom.

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks, I will be draining the tank before they are added because I have to move it to a place with less traffic. I do have white bristol board handy, thanks for the tip!

[Bill63SG]

I wouldnt worry about the less traffic.I have a pair with eggs at the bottom of steps everyone has to go by.They get used to thier surroundings.Coddle them and they will be coddled.My main tank they come out looking for food when the dog goes by.

[strawberryblonde]

I wouldnt worry about the less traffic.I have a pair with eggs at the bottom of steps everyone has to go by.They get used to thier surroundings.Coddle them and they will be coddled.My main tank they come out looking for food when the dog goes by.

I second that one Bill! I had to put my recent growout tank in my laundry room, right next to my cat food dishes on a long counter. This morning I caught my baby fish "biting" at one of the cats as we waddled back and forth in front of the tank. LOL

I'm not sure if they were trying to eat him, or if they were trying to get him to feed them. So yep, don't worry about high traffic. The discus will adjust and if they're like mine, they'll actually enjoy having lots to look at as people scoot past them.

[JenTN]

I second that one Bill! I had to put my recent growout tank in my laundry room, right next to my cat food dishes on a long counter. This morning I caught my baby fish "biting" at one of the cats as we waddled back and forth in front of the tank. LOL

I'm not sure if they were trying to eat him, or if they were trying to get him to feed them. So yep, don't worry about high traffic. The discus will adjust and if they're like mine, they'll actually enjoy having lots to look at as people scoot past them.

Lol my fry tank is in the living room, and we joke that anytime anyone makes a move near them they swim to the front begging for food. My cat stares them down too, I think theyve just figured out he doesnt equal food so they carry on as normal.

[Crystalwaters]

LOL! Thanks, but I think you typed this just as I was trying to move the stand across the living room. The tank I wanted to use was next to a patio door that gets slammed constantly. Found a nice quiet corner for them :) They have moved into the 20 gallon, very stressed at first but they are eating and comfortable now :)
Thanks for all the advice, I'm a little disappointed that they are stunted, still attached to them though!

[Bill63SG]

Hey,we've all stunted,have stunted fish.Use them as a learning experience and move on.I've got one guy,beautifuly proportioned,3 1/2".living it up in my 180.

[strawberryblonde]

Don't count them out yet. Did you see this thread?

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?89957-my-new-discus-from-joe-gargas

If you read the first couple of pages you'll see what he was up against. Then keep going to get the updated pics one year later. Yours are SO small that what you do with them for the next year can make a difference in how they turn out. Yeah, there's definitely one that looks stunted, but the others it's just too soon to tell.

[Crystalwaters]

I'm inspired now!!!! These discus are 1.5 to 2.5".

So, if a discus is stunted, the consequence could vary? If I understand right, the discus could still reach 90-95% of its size, or it might stop growing at 50%. Depends on the circumstance and individual fish?
Does that also hold true for the shape?

Thanks for your help. I put some updated photos of the discus in the album (first post). I can't post pictures yet.

[DiscusDrew]

Potentially, but the most delicate part of not just discus but most living creatures life, and the part where they are most likely to be stunted is when they are very young. So that's why its so hard to tell if they are stunted, irreversible damage may have already been done but that doesn't mean it has necessarily and your care from this point forward still accounts for a lot of the fishes growth. The reality is though, you have a very steep learning curve ahead of you, so just keep reading and learning.

[JenTN]

I have one that was badly stunted. Its been about 5 months and its not the prettiest discus but much better

[strawberryblonde]

You did a great job on setting up the tank yesterday! How are they liking the new surroundings so far?

You're right about stunting, it will all depend on how badly stunted they were when you bought them and how much growth potential they have left in them. Discus have their biggest growth period between birth and about 4-6 months, then slow down but continue to grow for another 8 - 12 months.

So if your discus were completely stunted from lack of clean water and plentiful feedings, then they could be much much older and well past the point of rapid growth. But I'm assuming that they are still quite young and simply weren't cared for well in your LFS or possibly by the breeder himself. In that case they have the potential to still grow.

As far as shape goes, I know that some people I've run into claim that you can't change the shape of a discus, but from my own experience, 2 of my fish were quite football shaped at 4" and by 6" were much rounder and by 8" were nicely rounded. Not show quality type round fish, but nice enough that no one would point to them and ask if my husband had tossed his football into the tank! LOL

Now you face the two biggest hurdles, 6 feedings a day and at least one huge water change a day. It won't last forever though...it's like raising kids, eventually they do grow up and discus do it a LOT faster than kids!

[Crystalwaters]

Drew & Strawberry, thanks for explaining. I do have a LOT of learning to do. I tend to jump right into things. I'm a fairly new fishkeeper but have already learned so much! I will continue to research and change what I'm doing for the better. Thanks so much for the support and kind words :D I know that I NEED to change their diet, going to work on that right away.
They are happy in their new surroundings, already acting like the old tank, begging for food constantly.

Jen that's amazing! I hope that in 6 months I'll have beautiful photos to share too! Thanks for the help everyone, I don't think they would have done very well if they continued on the path I had them on.

(Off topic: I wasn't aging water properly :S I only let it sit for 24hours. I have since set up a tub with a heater and airstone, have a spare powerhead I might put in there too!)

[mmorris]

Some look stunted but the shape on most looks relatively ok to me. I highly recommend you get them into a bare bottom tank on their own and worm them. You might be able to get some vermisol from David Rose.

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks, they are in a bare bottom tank now :) Soon as I get 10 posts i'll have pictures. I have general cure (prazi & metro) that I can use in their food. Their poop is normal so it wasn't something I was going to treat.
They all have healthy appetites, but one seems more stressed than the rest, clamping ventral fins, dark a lot. Not as energetic as the rest.

Do you think it wouldn't hurt to worm them? I heard General Cure is somewhat gentle, and I've successfully treated angelfish with it.

[warblad79]

Football shape, large eyes are few sign of stunted fish.

[mmorris]

Thanks, they are in a bare bottom tank now :) Soon as I get 10 posts i'll have pictures. I have general cure (prazi & metro) that I can use in their food. Their poop is normal so it wasn't something I was going to treat.
They all have healthy appetites, but one seems more stressed than the rest, clamping ventral fins, dark a lot. Not as energetic as the rest.

Do you think it wouldn't hurt to worm them? I heard General Cure is somewhat gentle, and I've successfully treated angelfish with it. Prazi is for tapeworms only and metro, to the best of my knowledge, doesn't damage worms so General Cure is probably not called for here. If they are this thin and they have healthy appetites, then there is a good chance they have round worms. Worming shouldn't hurt them, but not worming might.

[Crystalwaters]

Drew...you were so very right, I have a steep learning curve!! I am constantly learning from this site, and still need to improve. Just reading that carbon in the filter may cause disease, I'm using a cartridge that contains carbon. I also don't have a pre-filter sponge.

I ended up losing 3 of the 7, wasted away and died within days. The bullying got out of control, I ended up purchasing 3 more at the LFS, the bullying stopped for a few days and now it's evenly spread out. The tank went through a minor cycle, but amm and NO2 stayed low, detectable but barely.

I've been very diligent with the water changes and have a great system. They have been getting 2 water changes a day, 50% each time. Even cleaning the surfaces daily with a painter's sponge thingy (LOL) I am also proud to say that I made my own discus food!! Beef heart, shrimp, peas, multivitamins, paprika, garlic...they love it! (Want to get spirulina for next batch) I'm also feeding them soaked NLS pellets and Nutrafin Max granules sometimes, along with occasional FBW.

I'm going to try and track their growth, been photographing them next to a ruler. Making plans now to move them into a 55 next week. Trying to find new homes for some of the fish in there now. Have a large group (28) cardinal tetras in QT which will be tankmates to the discus. I've been busy researching good tankmates as well!

So much to learn. Thank you everyone for all your help. These discus have a much better life because people like you share your knowledge. I'll be able to post pictures of their growth soon :D Reading and soaking up information in the meantime!

[Crystalwaters]

Hi :)
An update about these discus.
Of the seven 1-1.5" discus, there are three left. The other three, petstore discus, are doing well :)
Early this month I saw what I thought was a piece of tapeworm falling from one of the discus. (based on images seen on SD, thanks contributors). I did end up worming them and I should have a long time ago, three of them passed tapeworms, one had a bunch! I'm surprised he/she still grew. Should have taken mmorris' advice when it was given :S

I still have some health questions but I will fill out a questionnaire in that section.

Thanks for everyone's help and advice!

Here are some then and now shots. The first 3 discus are the original discus, and the next 3 are the LFS discus. (One of them is close to 5", I want to take him out and measure to be sure! (S)he's huge already! I love it!)


the runt not growing
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Discus/bandit2012-11-1.jpg
a better photo:http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Aquariums/Discus%20Tank/Discus%20Nov2012/2012-11-029-1.jpg

the discus with two different eyes, likely blind in the other eye:
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Discus/Seven2012-11.jpg

the below discus, counted 6-8 tapeworms during round one of praxi treatment.
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Discus/Stewie2012-11.jpg

The LFS discus,

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Discus/Scooter2012-11.jpg

The big guy:
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Discus/Sunny2012-11.jpg

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Discus/turq2012-11.jpg

[Glenn36]

I think you did very well growing them out from what you had to start with. They were just too small and not buying them from a reputable buyer didn`t help any. That being said they look healthy now and are definitely growing for you. Your WC routine and feeding program seem spot on so keep up the great work and give yourself a pat on the back for getting them as good as you did.

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks so much! Still going to give them a 2nd round of prazi in a couple weeks. They survived because the people at SD were kind enough to help. Looking forward to your updates as well, here and the local forum :)

[camuth8]

Those look great! Nice job! :D

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks :) Took this photo a few weeks ago, looks like the big guy is 4" :)
http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii617/AquariumsAnonymous/Aquariums/Discus%20Tank/Discus%20Nov2012/2012-11-1611-1.jpg

[vicdiscus]

Crystalwater,

You are doing very well. You have lot of skill to keep with your discus. When you are ready to buy some high quality discus with great price. You will feel much better!

Duncan

[Eddie]

Nice work, you did good getting them to grow out from their initial condition. They seem very lively too.

[Crystalwaters]

Thanks, I've seen your beautiful discus Eddie :D Checked out your Royal Blue 6 month post recently! Thanks for the health advice. I can't wait to see how large these guys will grow, saving now for a brand spanking new 120 gallon. (Hope Santa is listening!)

[Eddie]

Thanks, I've seen your beautiful discus Eddie :D Checked out your Royal Blue 6 month post recently! Thanks for the health advice. I can't wait to see how large these guys will grow, saving now for a brand spanking new 120 gallon. (Hope Santa is listening!)

:) Yeah, he's always listening! A 120 would be NICE!