First Spawn Gone Bad?

[Ashiya]

Hello everyone! I'm a new member on the SimplyDiscus Forum, :bandana: and it is nice to meet you all! So please take care of me ヽ(・ω・ヽ*) Anyways! Let's get to the topic!

Me and my husband have 4 discus fish. We've had a 5th in the past which was one of our first, but she/he passed away due to unknown causes. So to even out the fish, we bought another turquoise.

x3 Turquoise
x1 Powder blue

Now it's been maybe... about 5-6 months? Since we've had 3 of these fish, and over the months observing them... we finally have a confirmed breeding pair. Just 3 days ago... 2 of our oldest fish, 2 Turquoises, mated and had their first small batch of eggs on a ceramic coffee cup we placed in the 40 gallon community tank. Now a day prior to that, they had been cleaning several areas to prepare the female to lay her eggs. Assuming they would be doing it sometime in the next few days, or maybe sooner than that... I kept vigilance over them since I'm always by them while using my laptop. I'm not sure when it happened... But when I woke up the next morning... I approached their tank and noticed a small colony of small orange specs situated on the ceramic cup facing the back of the tank. I had to rub my eyes and blink a few times to believe what I was seeing and quickly hollered to my husband. LoL It was preety amusing... We felt like brand new panicking parent who just heard news about having a newborn baby and didn't know what to do with the information. We quickly composed ourselves and started to check ont he condition of the eggs and the behavior of the now... novice parents.

My husband had to think of a quick plan on what to do with the new discovery. We thought up of two plans...

A. Remove all other fish and put them in the 20 gallon tank (seeing that we don't have a divider to split the parents and their offspring from the other fish)

or

B. Clean out the 20 gallon tank and place all 3 of them (the male, female and cup with eggs) in the small tank.

We decided to risk it and do the latter, and proceeded to clear out the spare tank. Once we were done, came the tedious and stressing job of moving the fish and their fry into the small tank. I know for a fact this might have been a mistake or not but the parents (of course) were stressed out, because we took them away from their babies. Long story short...They ate their young 2 hours after being moved into the smaller tank.

I'll prob get berated for this, but it's okay. I wanna know from your guys's opinions how we would have gone with this? and if the move was a wrong thing to do? Anywayz going to bed hope to hear from you soon!

[Larry Bugg]

Pretty exciting stuff, isn't it.

At this point you don't have a confirmed breeding pair. Maybe so, maybe not. All you know for sure right now it that you have a confirmed female. It takes about 48 hours for the eggs to hatch and until they do you just aren't sure to have a male. It is not that unusual for two females to appear to be spawning together. It is generally reccomended to just leave the pair in the community tank until they are confirmed. Eating the eggs is not that uncommon for a newly formed pair. It may take several attempts before they let the eggs hatch and then they may eat the wigglers for several spawns. Stressing the parents can cause them to eat the eggs. Good news is that once a female starts laying eggs she will unually continue to do so on a weekly basis. Good Luck.

[Ashiya]

Yeah.. I also forgot to mention. On that same morning when I had made the discovery of their spawn. All the eggs were their natural orange color (I know that when they do go bad they turn white and later becoming mossy and form fungus)

As the hours went by since their spawn (and after we moved them) 7 of those eggs turned white, while the rest still remained their usual color. I'm not sure if that's a key factor in determining that they are a confirmed pair. Since they can easily go bad if the parents reject their care and/or the male didn't fertilize them because it was actually a "female"

Our Funds at the moment are limited lol so we're just trying to do our best with what we have ^^

[Larry Bugg]

Sorry but staying amber is not an indication. I've had unfertilized eggs stay amber for 48 hours or more.

[Ashiya]

Gotcha!

[Squall]

I am the husband and I am the one who worked to get our 40-gallon tank with the correct parameters for mating. I do most of the work with the fish as I have several years experience raising tropical fish. She left a bit of information out and I will fill you in on the rest. We established this 40 gallon fish tank around 10 months ago.About 2 weeks after it was established we bought our first pair of Discus. As she said we lost one of our first 2. So our oldest discus, We call him "Big Boy",(the one appearing to be male) has always been the dominant discus in the tank. About 2 months ago, we noticed it swimming with another discus and protecting it. They stayed together most of the time. Then as my wife said, they began to clean the filter tube (we have an "over the side filter"). I had recently started changing the water more often (2-3 times a week, 1/3 of the water). I have my ph at 6.0 and water temp is about 88 degrees F. They seems to be much happier once i raised the temp from 80 degrees F (I raised the temp about 3 months ago). I am going to remove all the other fish except the other discus and our corys from the main tank (where they first spawned) and am considering purchasing a divider for the next time they try. With only the other discus and corys, will I need the divider? The corys stay away from the Discus, but keep our tank very clean. Let you know if they spawn again....I am hoping we have a male-female pair. From my observation, based on their behavior (the one we believe is male did the shimmy dance for the other, protected the 'mate' and always swam inbetween us and the 'mate' when we approached the tank).

[Brent1972]

The other discus will try to eat the eggs.

[Squall]

The other discus will try to eat the eggs. Yeah, I know that, however, the two trying to spawn are bigger than the other 2, these 2 are the dominate pair. but I will put in the divider should they lay eggs again.

[Tobrienne]

All I want to say is that I am very happy for your "pair" and if you need help Discus Drew is my go to guy and Warlock. Read my posts to so have had my fair share of bad blunders. I have wigglers right now from my pair and I know exactly how you two feel. Feel free to pm me anytime

[Ashiya]

thanx for the recomendation Tob :D and grats on the fry! We decided to move the pair back last night to their original tank. Hopefully, will get to see them spawn again soon <3

[Squall]

Update....the "pair" continue to chase the other 2 discus away from their area, however, the one we believe to be the male has been wandering away from "the female" (we never saw which one laid the eggs, so we're not sure of anything yet, lol). Its been 10 days and they show no sign of trying to spawn again. no cleaning, not even any flirting, however, they do continue to hunt for leftover food together, and continue claiming the same area of the tank. let you know if anything happens. Just being patient and observing from a distance.

[Ashiya]

Update! Proud to announce that our pair are at it again! :D They just got done making eggs and are now watching over them carefully :) Anyone know if hardware stores like home depot or osh sell wire mesh cheap and fish safe?

Btw anyone know were I can buy wire mesh to cover the eggs? does it matter which? any recomendations prob thinking of hitting the local home depot for some but need to know whats safe for the fish.

[Altum Nut]

Here you go Ashiya
http://www.homedepot.com/Building-Materials-Roofing-Gutters-Gutter-Parts-Accessories-Gutter-Guards/h_d1/N-ar5eZ5yc1v/R-202962716/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=2&langId=-1&storeId=10051

...Ralph

[Ashiya]

thanks Altum =)

[DiscusDrew]

I dont usually push to using mesh unless I have to, I mean it isnt a bad habit or idea, but I generally try to allow for the best natural parenting possible, which takes time, then if you have confirmed that you have a consistent "egg eater" after say maybe 4-5 spawns I would look at changing things up a little and using mesh. Its just my approach but I try to encourage as much natural parenting and protective behavior as possible. Make sure the mesh is placed about an hour after the spawn takes place if you choose to do so. Its ok to be later if the eggs are still there just dont go earlier, you need to make sure the entire spawning process takes place and the male has made his runs (usually takes about an hour). Just remember that even with mesh (which is a personal choice by the breeder) it can take some time for a pair to figure their crap out. Patience is key, just try to enjoy the process.

[Squall]

Thanx Drew....they are so far doing ok. My wife thinks there are less eggs than when they had finished (its been a couple hours now) but I looked at the pattern and can't discern a lesser amount. I am hoping that since all of my discus come from a very small but reputable aquarium shop (they do set-ups for the movies as well as in star homes), that their parenting instincts remained intact. Since its their second batch of eggs i am not too worried.

[Squall]

I am pleased to announce that we have wigglers! The parents involved were: Cobalt Blue (Male,thanks for identifying him guys!) x Tourqoise (Female). We are so excited to have our first fry. Hoping we get some to raise. We have identified about 15 to 20 wigglers. A lot of eggs seem to have not gotten fertilized, my fault, I didn't turn the filter and airstone off. This being their second batch, we thought she would lay a lot of eggs, but seems it wasn't more than 100 or so. We almost panicked because the male was eating eggs, but soon realized he was just eating the white ones(well, trying to only eat the white ones, lol). Currently keeping them in the community tank, however, we have moved all but our smallest discus from the tank. They have been keeping it away from the eggs and it seems to be obedient. Anyway, we will keep you updated.

P.S. They seem to be good parents and I think they want to move the wigglers, as they have been cleaning other surfaces near the eggs. Anyone tell me if this is what may be happening?

[limige]

Your generally best putting the pair in their own tank and leave the rest in the main tank. If you have more than the one pair they will. Be very likely to continue eating eggs. You can put a divider in the main tank to seperate the two pairs. That should work pretty well. Sponge filters are best suited for breeding tanks. I would give them two or three spawns before resorting to screens. Oh and it helps if you make a divider that isn't see through. Colored acrylic works well.

Pay attention who eats eggs or fry. You may try removing that fish first instead of screening.

Congrats, watching discus rear their young is very awesome!

[Squall]

He was doing what was natural, eating the eggs that turned white. He left most of the eggs that were viable. But due to my inexperience, I left a current in the tank while they were breeding, so I would say about 85% weren't fertilized. They are being great parents atm

[limige]

Gotcha. Hard to keep track on the phone. Just trying to help

[Squall]

Gotcha. Hard to keep track on the phone. Just trying to help

Thank you for your help, we appreciate it. We're so nervous watching the eggs hatch. The first wriggler wouldn't attach itself and after the parents tried feverishly to get it to attach, we lost it. I think the parents got frustrated, one of them may have accidently swallowed it trying to get it to attach, we can't seem to locate it. Waiting on the rest to hatch atm. They tried for a solid 15-20 minutes, one with the eggs, the other trying to attach it elsewhere. Boy those breeding cones would be better than these inverted coffee cups. I need to invest some money on a couple of cones. Can't afford it right now though.

[limige]

I always used clay flower pots.

[Squall]

Well, it looks as though the stress of the wigglers got to them. Woke up this morning and all the wigglers and eggs were gone. They were having an extremely difficult time getting the wrigglers to stick to the ceramic cups (they were glazed).

[John_Nicholson]

He was doing what was natural, eating the eggs that turned white. He left most of the eggs that were viable. But due to my inexperience, I left a current in the tank while they were breeding, so I would say about 85% weren't fertilized. They are being great parents atm

Just to clarify....They are not "eating" the dead eggs. They have brains the size of a pencil eraser....the have no clue which eggs are live or dead. The fish will "mouth" all of the eggs. The dead eggs will normally rupture because bacteria has already attacked and weakened the membrane of the egg.

Good luck next time.

-john

[Squall]

Just to clarify....They are not "eating" the dead eggs. They have brains the size of a pencil eraser....the have no clue which eggs are live or dead. The fish will "mouth" all of the eggs. The dead eggs will normally rupture because bacteria has already attacked and weakened the membrane of the egg.

Good luck next time.

-john

Thank you, John, for your input, however, I think that they identify bad eggs as those that have turned white. I watched them the last 2 days and he intentionally targetted ONLY the white eggs (unfortunately the eggs around it that had not turned white were also eaten as he attempted to dislodge the white egg). It may be instinct to target that particular egg, according to the video I watched from a german discus expert. This is the video, its in 4 parts, I believe:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osjj2UFf6lk&feature=results_main&playnext=1&list=PL4810A27CEA7AE38C

In the video he states that the discus may target the eggs that are bad to perserve the eggs that are still viable. Based on my observations, he did mouth some eggs that had stayed orange, not closing his mouth, but keeping it open. When targetting the eggs that had turned white, he closed his mouth and after a few attempts, managed to pull it off the cup, and ate it. Unfortunately, a few eggs around it that were not white, came with it. Once wrigglers had hatched, they sucked them in (both female and male), and kept spitting them onto the cup, trying to get them to stick to it. After several attempts, sometimes working feverishly trying to get the wriggler to stick, they would lose it (they were still in the community tank) in the gravel (we did see a few dropped and land in the gravel)or ate it. We are going to move them to a bare-bottom 20 gallon tank and purchase some terra cotta pots, since those are cheap. We already were preparing the tank, for when the wrigglers had become free swimming, but now, we can take our time and make sure the tank is 100% ready.

[John_Nicholson]

That would imply intelligence that the fish do not have. I do not mean to argue but I have raised literally thousands of discus. A good pair will mouth all eggs, the dead ones just rupture.

-john

[limige]

i would pull the cup and get a flower pot, they are easily availible, or even a piece of slate, or PVC pipe, i've done that too! large 3" pipe with an end cap on the top and silicone a piece of glass to the bottom, be sure to put some sand inside to wieght it down and a hole in the top for air to escape. discus seem to love pvc for some reason.

don't sweat the first time, if they feel its not worth it they will try again.

how long since the spawn? maybe she's about ready to drop eggs again.

[Squall]

The wrigglers started hatching last night, 7/16/12. So, we are at the moment readying a 20 gallon tank for the pair. Since we are sure they are male and female now, its just a matter of waiting for them to feel comfortable in the 20 gallon.

[Squall]

This is on another post, about thhis same pair, however, if anyone was folowwing, we thought we'd add that we have free-swimmmers. They went from wrigglers to free-swimming Sunday, August 29th. Father is doing most of the feeding, and at times chases the female away. Neither would eat the first 2 days the fry went swimming, but yesterday they started eating vigorously. Out of about 50 wrigglers, we have about 20-25 swimmers (hard to count them when they keep swimming from one side of daddy to the other and back). They never really ATTACHED to the parents, they just swim near them keep feeding off them. They are growing fast! Thank you to all who have given their advice, it made this much easier.

[dpete9]

Ha ha ha. Congratulations! That's what attaching means.. they never really "attach" like a mosquito feeding they just hover along and eat on the slim coat of the parents. congrats

[Oscarsx]

Reading this makes me jelly! I want baby discus too!!!! Lol

- Oz

[shawnhu]

Congrats! I'm sure you meant aug 19th and not the 29th. Have you considered entering this years Discus challenge? Your fry would qualify, and we could use more contestants.