Water and tank health website.

[Floppy Fin's]

I am not sure where to really post this as it covers a great deal of territory...
This page of the website deals with water changes and its affects on the bacterial systems.
Its quite informative. If I overlapped a previous posting, excuse me.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/prevention.html

"Floppy Fin's"

[Orange Crush]

Bah! They are advocating adding stuff to the water, using more filters so you can do less water changes and trying to sell their product. 25% weekly water changes - not good. It is true that doing lots of water changes when a tank is cycling will slow down the process but if you have fish in the tank it is more important to make that water safe for them by changing the water.
I would ignore that page...

[Brent1972]

I am not sure where to really post this as it covers a great deal of territory...
This page of the website deals with water changes and its affects on the bacterial systems.
Its quite informative. If I overlapped a previous posting, excuse me.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/prevention.html

"Floppy Fin's"

I agree that doing to many water changes will weaken your filters as you will never give the bacteria a chance to establish properly , I Change 25% water on my display tank twice a week but I know I could easily miss one of those and my filters would still do there job and water quality would be good. Now if I changed say 75% a day and missed just one change The filters would not cope and the quality would be bad. I'm not saying that doing massive changes are wrong I'm saying that small changes work .

[Elliots]

What the site says about water changes probably works well for other fish but probably not Discus. If you turn off your filters during water changes and use aged or treated water the BB will not be badly effected.

[Brent1972]

What the site says about water changes probably works well for other fish but probably not Discus. If you turn off your filters during water changes and use aged or treated water the BB will not be badly effected.

Sorry I disagree With you about the water changes , Stendker fish have a very very good reputation now this is what he says about water changes on his web site: http://www.diskuszucht-stendker.de/gb/586,0,waterchange,index,0.html

I think he is a man who would know. He wants his fish to do well because that's how he got his reputation .

[oldfar]

Ok floppy Fin's is this something you agree with I know you are very knowledgable around here.

[oldfar]

Sorry I disagree With you about the water changes , Stendker fish have a very very good reputation now this is what he says about water changes on his web site: http://www.diskuszucht-stendker.de/gb/586,0,waterchange,index,0.html

I think he is a man who would know. He wants his fish to do well because that's how he got his reputation .
I read this today at work and was very surprised .I'll call this the (STENDKER REPORT) everyone on here should read this in my opinion it opened my eyes.It is in English enjoy gives you something to think about.

[Moon]

He's got 12 discus in a 45g tank and advocates 10 to 20% WC once a week. Does this make sense????
12 small discus require feeding 4 to 5 times a day. Imagine the amount of waste accumulation in a week. The nitrate levels will be very high.
Something is wrong with that statement. Stendker may be an expert but that statement does not make sense.

[oldfar]

I do not know I'am new around but he is the man they use a filter called the Hamberg mat filter some have been in use for 25yrs you can't beat that with a stick.

[DonMD]

Stendker may be an expert but that statement does not make sense.

+1

[oldfar]

Do you think bad translation maybe.Maybe Hans could step in here and clear this up.

[Floppy Fin's]

Ok floppy Fin's is this something you agree with I know you are very knowledgable around here.

Thank you sir...but I am perhaps the least knowledgeable of the modern day discus professionals here. I offer up this website for drawing ones own conclusions. My routine here with discus is perhaps a blend of the webpages information. My start in Discusbegain the the late 1960's into the mid to late 1970's and ended due to a health problem of my own. It's my belief that persons with discus, that live in different parts of the country, may have to diversify their discus tactics to be successful.
My start began with Jack Wattley's outstanding Turquoise, and if you look at page 98 of Schmidt-Fockes Discus Book you will see a photo of a discus that has some history to it. :)
Good luck and God Bless America.....
"FF"

[Moon]

It is interesting that you started with Jack Wattley's fish. I too did that back in the early 80's. Jack writes a column in TFH on discus. I recall reading one last year where he talks about the importance of WC. He carried out an experiment. He had a number of fry in two 10 g tanks. One got two 50% WC daily. The other once a week. Both tanks were fed the same diet. In a month the fish that got two 50% daily WC were double the size of the others. This is from the discus master. I'm not quite sure about Stendker's WC philosophy.

[DiscusDrew]

I read that article too Moon, and I find the findings to be quite true (Jack Wattley's). I cant imagine what my fry or juvies would look like if they only got one water change per week.... In fact I know what they would look like come to think of it... Dead....

[Moon]

I read that article too Moon, and I find the findings to be quite true (Jack Wattley's). I cant imagine what my fry or juvies would look like if they only got one water change per week.... In fact I know what they would look like come to think of it... Dead....
Maybe not "dead" but quite emaciated.

[DiscusDrew]

I was exaggerating, you get the idea... Esta no bueno

[Floppy Fin's]

Perhaps there is a equation of how many discus per gallon of water in water change relativity. Here is my routine.. I have a 90 gallong tank that was a reserve tank for 13 ea. of 2.5" Stenkers Pidgeon blues and reds that started in a 59 gallon tank.
That equals 4.5 or 4.6 gallon of water per fish. NOT 10 gallon per adult size. When these 13 reached 3 to 3.5" they were all moved to the 90 gallon.
And I added 1 more discus later that I put in the 59 gallon by his personal self. He was a rescued fish from the local FS.
At what point those 14 fish were the total, I don't recall but eventually the 59 gallon tank became my water reserve tank for the 90 gallon with 14 discus.
My water change routine is or was or still is as follows..
I am a persistant poop sweeper, and I do multiple cleanings per day.. 4 to 6 gallon per day is removed.. None added. When the tank level drops to
about 70 gallon, I do a full 50% water change from the 59 gallong tank.. almost draining it.
The 90 gallon water looks refreshed and clearer using Hypro foam filters (2) one on each end of the 90, and I added a Fluval external filter as well.
The external fluval gets a partial cleaning (not the substrate, but the foam parts) about every 10 days or 2 weeks.
I purchased my discus from Discus Hans at 2.5" on April 9th.. Today, they range from 4.5 -4.75 and 5" in length. Growth has been quite good or excellent IMHO. Feedings are done right after poop sweeps of FDBlack Worms, (mornings) followed by Discus Bio Gold granuals, (I liked the high protien values and vitamins contents) And about 2 feedings of the Discus Hans beef formula, but I use beef heart in place of 92 % hamburger.
How this all fits together is just my station here, and I again, do not present myself as a professional, as I have a great deal to learn yet about
Discus. They are still teaching me from the tanks... :-)
Cheers.
FF
PS... I did a split of the 14 discus a few days ago so there is now 9 discus in the 90, and 5 discus in the 59 gallon tank, and now using a 55 gallon tank for reserve water changes.. Comments are always appreciated. Destructive criticisms go in the round baskets. :-)

[Brent1972]

Many would say that your water changes are not enough ,but by what you are saying your fish are growing and healthy so its working .If your fish were stunted and sick then people could criticise but as they are not how can they.

[brianyam]

I have wilds, I only WC once a week, about 50%. There about 15 in a 210 G tank with an aro and 3 plecos. They are fine. Even after one week or so, my nitrates are less than 5 ppm using the API test. Thats nothing. There is no practical reason (from my set up) to do WC every day. I would just be changing water with nearly 0 nitrates already. From my calc, they only have close to 5ppm for a few days before I do a WC.

That being said, I don't feed BH, and clean scoop up the poo about 3 times a day. I am not sure about the fast growth and daily WC. Most likely it is because you can overfeed more since you are doing WC every day, or twice a day. I don't understand the rush to grow out fish. Better to have them grow in a normal rate, and look better for a longer period.

If you feed BH, for sure you need to do more water changes though.

[nabilbb]

I have wilds, I only WC once a week, about 50%. There about 15 in a 210 G tank with an aro and 3 plecos. They are fine. Even after one week or so, my nitrates are less than 5 ppm using the API test. Thats nothing. There is no practical reason (from my set up) to do WC every day. I would just be changing water with nearly 0 nitrates already. From my calc, they only have close to 5ppm for a few days before I do a WC.

That being said, I don't feed BH, and clean scoop up the poo about 3 times a day. I am not sure about the fast growth and daily WC. Most likely it is because you can overfeed more since you are doing WC every day, or twice a day. I don't understand the rush to grow out fish. Better to have them grow in a normal rate, and look better for a longer period.

If you feed BH, for sure you need to do more water changes though.
+1

But why BH = more WC?
how about BS, BW....etc what is the difference?

[Brent1972]

On my display tank I clean out leftover food 3 times a day and do two 25-30% water changes a week . On my breeding tanks I do 30% every day and On my grow out tanks I do two 50% changes a day but that's only because they are stocked to the max.

[Brent1972]

+1

But why BH = more WC?
how about BS, BW....etc what is the difference?

beefheart is very good but it is a very dirty food .

[brianyam]

BH is red meat. When fish eat it their poo is much more toxic and therefore puts on more demand on your filters. Also, any uneaten BH that gets trapped in your filter or whatever is an ammonia creating machine.

So if one is feeding their fish 3-6 times a day with red meat, it puts out allot of toxic poo = ammonia = nitrates faster. Hence more water changes.

Don't believe me? Eat steak 3 times a day. Just streak. Please tell me how your poo look/becomes.

Also, there is a chemical in red meat that causes colon cancer and hurts digestion. That is why allot of people who do other fish don't really feed BH, it is generally mostly a discus phenememon, started by people like Jack Wattley. People who do say plecos, which can cost thousands, stay away from BH as it can cause bloating. Plecos like in rapid white water type rivers as well, allot of oxygen. People put power heads blasting on to their plecos, and they don't do WC every day. Some do every two weeks.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/fhg/updates/Red-meat-and-colon-cancer.shtml

What you feed cause how many WC you do. No different than what you eat yourself effects how many times you go to the toilet and the health of your digestion.

[brianyam]

Check out this, the part on red meat on diet:

http://www.kcby.com/news/health/18422614.html

[nabilbb]

Don't believe me? Eat steak 3 times a day. Just streak. Please tell me how your poo look/becomes.


I believe you, but I think BH flakes and Frozen BH are not the same, if you feed BH flakes which is proccessed and treated is just like a normal flake food!! What do you think?

[brianyam]

I am not sure how that one. Probably allot less toxic than raw red meat being thrown in your tank. If one reads other fish forums like monster fish keepers or planet cat fish...no one talks about feeding BH or daily water changes. It is mostly a discus thing.

Now, I have wilds, and they are strong. I am not sure about domestics. Some are very weak now with all the in breeding.

[Orange Crush]

I am not sure about the fast growth and daily WC. Most likely it is because you can overfeed more since you are doing WC every day, or twice a day. I don't understand the rush to grow out fish. Better to have them grow in a normal rate, and look better for a longer period.
It's not about the rate of growth. It's that with daily water changes you can grow out huge discus and not doing daily water changes it prevents them from getting to their potential size. The fish are less healthy with less water changes and therefore do not thrive but instead just stay alive. In a way not doing daily water changes stunts their growth.

There is more to water quality than what API test kits test for.

[Orange Crush]

I believe you, but I think BH flakes and Frozen BH are not the same, if you feed BH flakes which is proccessed and treated is just like a normal flake food!! What do you think?
+1
Processed food is never ideal. There are enzymes and other things in food that are killed once a food is processed but those enzymes etc. have a lot of benefit. They are what they eat.

[nabilbb]

It's not about the rate of growth. It's that with daily water changes you can grow out huge discus and not doing daily water changes it prevents them from getting to their potential size. The fish are less healthy with less water changes and therefore do not thrive but instead just stay alive. In a way not doing daily water changes stunts their growth.

There is more to water quality than what API test kits test for.
Let's make a survey about the biggest Discus people have and the WC regim they use. I think there are only few Discus larger than 7" that also can be attained without dayly WC

Also what is in the water that we can't test? I see people say this alot but I don't think they can explain what they are saying

[Orange Crush]

Also what is in the water that we can't test? I see people say this alot but I don't think they can explain what they are saying
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?95882-Lets-Talk-water-changes-p/page3&highlight=aging+water
Read post 37

[nabilbb]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?95882-Lets-Talk-water-changes-p/page3&highlight=aging+water
Read post 37

ok this post is talking about everything around the tank, it is talking about gases. let's take an example of CO2 in planted aquariums which is also Gas you can't just put or dose CO2 directly you have have to a difuser in order for the co2 to be mixes in the water.

now let's talk about the Gases around the tank like smoke it will never be mixed with the water unless you have a difuser to do so.
on another note: isn't it easier and cheaper to have a top cover for the tank than having to do daily WC?