TOO MUCH PRIME WITH WATER CHANGES!

[Elliots]

I just posted on a thread about water changes in the "For Beginners" section. There was a question why treat the entire volume of your tank with P:o:orime when you are only changing part of the volume. I said I would do that because everyone else who uses Prime does that and the instructions on the Prime bottle say treat the whole volume. It did not sound right to me. I called Seacheme tech support. They said to treat the entire volume to make sure you get all the chemicals in the water you are changing with. And also to get chemicals in the remaining unchanged water, principally AMMONIA. I guess many people on SD are overtreating. I will add just a little more Prime than necessary for the volume of my water change.

[Elliots]

That is Prime in the first line. I put the smiling faces there by accident. The Seacheme phone for tech support is 888 SEACHEM.

[DiscusDrew]

That doesn't make sense, from what you wrote it sounds like your supposed to treat exactly like we all do... For the while volume of the tank, UNLESS you are priming the water before you add it to the tank, as per the directions on the bottle

[Kal-El]

So if I'm reading your post correctly Seacheme says to treat the entire volume of your tank when doing any type of water change regardless if it's only 10-25% using tap water right? And not to add prime only to the volume you are putting back in? If that's the case most of everyone is doing as you mention unless this is wrong and to only treat the volume you put back in.

[DiscusDrew]

The bottle says treat the whole volume unless you treat your water prior to adding it to the tank, which most of us do not. It also says its acceptable to use a half dose if chlorine levels are low and the temp is above 30 degrees centigrade, which is feasible for those of us that age and don't have chloramines. Point is, an extra half a cap if prime cost almost nothing, even for those of us with larger tanks it is still a cheap dechlorinator, so weigh the pros and cons... There is no negative effect to using too much, however using too little holds disastrous consequences... I think I will continue to do what has worked for me for years and treat the whole volume of the tank.

[Elliots]

When you speak to Tech Support at Seacheme they say it is only necessary to treat the volume of water you are adding, not the entire tank volume as people on SD do. They say to treat the whole volume of the tank in case there are chemicals in the water that remains in your tank that was not removed by the water change. You will then be treating the water that you did not remove from your tank also, particually if there is ammonia in the water that you did not remove for the water change. In other words, if you remove water from you tank to be replaced by new water check the water remaining in your tank. No ammonia, no treatment. Also if you have chlorine and cloramines in your remaining tank that you do not have (OR should not have) it will treat them to. To put it a third way, you treat the entire volume of the tank to MAKE SURE you old water is good. I think if you have to treat the water in your tank that you did not remove to be changed you have other problems possibly.

[Elliots]

Drew, I understand your point completely. You have found no ill effect by over treating and there probably is not any ill effect. You want to contine doing what you have been doing to be safe. That is a good idea. I have read that Prime makes some water tests inaccurate so it is doing something. It is doing no noticable harm. I did not say to NOT treat your whole tank volume with prime, just that it may not be necessary. It is your aquarium, your choice. My choice is to treat more that the volume of water I am replacing but not necessarily the whole volume. I am not a Marine Biologist so I have no idea what is really going on. I like the idea of "Less is More".

[Kal-El]

When you speak to Tech Support at Seacheme they say it is only necessary to treat the volume of water you are adding, not the entire tank volume as people on SD do. They say to treat the whole volume of the tank in case there are chemicals in the water that remains in your tank that was not removed by the water change. You will then be treating the water that you did not remove from your tank also, particually if there is ammonia in the water that you did not remove for the water change. In other words, if you remove water from you tank to be replaced by new water check the water remaining in your tank. No ammonia, no treatment. Also if you have chlorine and cloramines in your remaining tank that you do not have (OR should not have) it will treat them to. To put it a third way, you treat the entire volume of the tank to MAKE SURE you old water is good. I think if you have to treat the water in your tank that you did not remove to be changed you have other problems possibly.

Now, this makes more sense compare to your first post. The way I look at is if i don't age my water than I add Prime for the whole tank when doing water change, but if I age my water I only prime the age barrel before using after 24 hrs.

[Elliots]

Kalelhawj, what I am saying is what is says on the bottle is not supported by tech support. It may be a good idea to treat your entire tank volume to treat residual chemicals in your tank, but it is not necessarily needed. If you have Discus you probably do not have those residual chemicals in your tank. I think you should add a little more Prime then is necessary to treat the volume of water you are changing to be safe, it is not necessary to treat the entire tank volume. I did not say it is a bad idea to treat the entire tank volume, just that it may not be necessary. Think for yourself. If you treated your entire tank at one change, then change 20% and treat 100% you are treating 20% and RETREATING 80% that may not be necessary.

[Elliots]

Kalelhawj, Your second post answer. If you treat your ageing barrel you have treated the water you will put in your tank and you are probably good. Why retreat the rest of your tank? I myself, would add a little extra Prime to be safe. Now I know Prime is not expensive but I like the idea of adding as little as possible to your tank. "Less is More" and "K.I.S.S." If you would call Seacheme, it is a free call in the USA.

[DiscusOnly]

Read the FAQ question on SAFE dosage.

http://www.seachem.com/support/FAQs/Safe.html


When treating your system, after you have completed filling up the tank, use the recommend dose for removing chloramines. You will need to dose the entire system water volume because the chloramines have had a change to circulate through your water (if performing a water top off or change from a bucket it is only necessary to treat that the new water).

[Elliots]

DiscusOnly, the prime circulates through the water also. Call TECH SUPPORT at Seacheme, hear what they say. Your quote says "After you have completed filling up the tank", of course,you have to dose the entire tank if you just filled the entire tank. It is does not make sense to treat the water again that is in your tank. It is very difficult to accept an idea that is counter to what you have been doing. I am not saying DO NOT DOSE the entire tank when you do a partial water change. I am saying it is not necessary!!

[Larry Bugg]

I had a Seachem Rep say that you dose for the entire volume of water you are adding the Safe/Prime to. If you add it to 5 gallons of new water in a bucket then you dose for 5 gallons. However, if you add the 5 gallons to the tank and then dose the Prime/Safe then you dose for the entire tank. He said it was a matter of the dilution ratio. This is exactly what their directions say.

Use 1 capful (5 mL) for each 200 L (50 gallons*) of new water. This removes approximately 1 mg/L ammonia, 4 mg/L chloramine, or 5 mg/L chlorine. For smaller doses, please note each cap thread is approx. 1 mL. May be added to aquarium directly, but better if added to new water first. If adding directly to aquarium, base dose on aquarium volume. Sulfur odor is normal. For exceptionally high chloramine concentrations, a double dose may be used safely. To detoxify nitrite in an emergency, up to 5 times normal dose may be used. If temperature is > 30 °C (86 °F) and chlorine or ammonia levels are low, use a half dose.

[Elliots]

DiscusOnly, if you continue reading the Seacheme site past what you quoted it says it is not necessary to treat the whole tank, only the new water. I guess I misread the quote and stopped originally at "Treat the entire tank." That supports what I said.

[DiscusOnly]

DiscusOnly, the prime circulates through the water also. Call TECH SUPPORT at Seacheme, hear what they say. Your quote says "After you have completed filling up the tank", of course,you have to dose the entire tank if you just filled the entire tank. It is does not make sense to treat the water again that is in your tank. It is very difficult to accept an idea that is counter to what you have been doing. I am not saying DO NOT DOSE the entire tank when you do a partial water change. I am saying it is not necessary!!

First of all. read the link.. First with the question part and then see the answer. This is no different than what a rep told me in person when I inquired about seachem Prime a few years ago @ ThatPetPlace.

Do what works for you...you are saying the opposite of what a product's dosage stated.

[DiscusOnly]

DiscusOnly, if you continue reading the Seacheme site past what you quoted it says it is not necessary to treat the whole tank, only the new water. I guess I misread the quote and stopped originally at "Treat the entire tank." That supports what I said.

How do you treat the new water only if you are adding tap water directly to the tank?

[Elliots]

You put the Prime into the tank to treat the amount of new tap water being added. It is not necessary as everyone has been doing to retreat the water you left in your tank. It is not wrong to treat the entire tank, just not necessary. Everything is in solution. Put a drop of dyed water into a bucket of water, does it stay where you put it or does it spread out in the solution?
It is your tank, do what you like. The extra Prime that everyone has been adding may have no bad effects but it has little or no positive effect if there is no chlorine, chloramines, ammonia or other chemicals the Prime neutralizes.

[nc0gnet0]

You put the Prime into the tank to treat the amount of new tap water being added. It is not necessary as everyone has been doing to retreat the water you left in your tank. It is not wrong to treat the entire tank, just not necessary. Everything is in solution. Put a drop of dyed water into a bucket of water, does it stay where you put it or does it spread out in the solution?
It is your tank, do what you like. The extra Prime that everyone has been adding may have no bad effects but it has little or no positive effect if there is no chlorine, chloramines, ammonia or other chemicals the Prime neutralizes.

Your logic is flawed. While 999 times out of 1000 it may indeed not be neccesary to treat the whole volume of water, that 1000th time might be a stickler. Not only as Larry pointed out do you have the dilution ratio working against you, but the amount of dissolved organics left in the tank that will impeded the neutralization process.

There is an old saying that applys here:

Penny wise and dollar foolish.....

A 1/2 capfull of prime/safe cost a few cents, a tank full of discus cost much more.


Rick

[Bill63SG]

You have 10 miles of road,you replace 5,you still need enough gas to travel the 10.

[Donno]

In the grand scheme of things, whats a little extra Prime cost? So what if you put an extra dollar or two a month in your tank than you need to? I can tell you what happens when you don't add any, all of your fish die.

[DirtyDutch]

You have 10 miles of road,you replace 5,you still need enough gas to travel the 10.

So basically you're saying, you've got 10 gallons of water, you replace 5, you still need to prime 10? Strong logic is strong. If you've always been priming the water you've put in, there's no need to prime the entire volume when doing just 50% water changes. Especially if you're changing water daily.

[Orange Crush]

So basically you're saying, you've got 10 gallons of water, you replace 5, you still need to prime 10? Strong logic is strong. If you've always been priming the water you've put in, there's no need to prime the entire volume when doing just 50% water changes. Especially if you're changing water daily.
I think people are getting confused with the words. There is adding untreated water directly into the tank there is adding water to the tank that has already been treated.
If you are adding untreated water directly into the tank then you need to treat for the entire volume of the tank because the existing organic matter in the tank water will bind with some the prime leaving it unavailable to neutralize the untreated water you are putting into the tank.
This will leave chlorine in your tank that was not treated.

[DirtyDutch]

I think people are getting confused with the words. There is adding untreated water directly into the tank there is adding water to the tank that has already been treated.
If you are adding untreated water directly into the tank then you need to treat for the entire volume of the tank because the existing organic matter in the tank water will bind with some the prime leaving it unavailable to neutralize the untreated water you are putting into the tank.
This will leave chlorine in your tank that was not treated.

I stand corrected, this is true. I was reflecting this procedure on my own water changes (pre treated in a barrel.)

[Elliots]

OrangeCrush, you are correct if you add only enough Prime to treat the new water it will not neutralize chemicals in the untreated water. When you treat for the whole volume of the tank you are treating what was in the untreated part. I agree but by treating for the entire volume of the tank you are putting more Prime in the tank than you need for what is in the untreated part. If you are doing 50% or more daily water changes how much untreated chemicals are there? You should continue to treat 100% of the volume of your tank when you do water changes. I will not. We agree to disagree.

[Bill63SG]

Forgot to add,I do not age my water,so thats why I've always done it for the whole tank.It's apples and oranges otherwise.

[magewynd]

“ As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no Simply discus member may interfere with the normal and healthy development of alien life and culture. Such interference includes introducing superior knowledge, strength, or technology to a world whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. Simply members may not violate this Prime Directive, even to save their lives and/or their fish, unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.[4] ”

[Elliots]

No Bill you have always done it for the whole tank because you read it on the Prime bottle or you read it on SD posted by someone who read it on the Prime bottle. I am not advocating using less Prime for everyone. I am just pointing out that the Prime bottle and the Seacheme company give conflicting information on the correct Prime dosage. You are happy at using 100% treatment good for you! I prefer less chemicals in my tank good for me. We agree to disagree. I just say it is a good idea to think for yourself and make a decision. By the way it is not apples and oranges, that implies two different things. This is two similar things. It is closer to Delicious or MacIntosh apples.

[Bill63SG]

No Bill you have always done it for the whole tank because you read it on the Prime bottle or you read it on SD posted by someone who read it on the Prime bottle. Don't tell me why I've done something.I know exactly why I do it that way,and your statements are false.

[Elliots]

So Bill why do you do it that way? Please do not feel insulted. You got the idea from someone or somewhere. You probably did not do any scientific research to determine what is the correct thing to do and you did not make up the idea. I would not do scientific research or make it up either. I also get ideas from reading and from other peoples opinions and I often follow them. I believed that you always had to do 100% Prime but it did not sound right to me but I accepted the idea. I have now contacted Seacheme and their Tech Assistance says it is not always necessary to use 100%. SEACHEME GIVES CONFLICTING INFORMATION I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT 100% PRIME IS NOT ALWAYS NECESSARY. It is fine with me if you believe that 100% is correct, I am not saying you are wrong I am asking you where did you get that information?, it should be "TOO MUCH PRIME WITH WATER CHANGES?" A question mark not an explanation is the correct punctuation.
I think I mistitled this thread

[Elliots]

My last sentence should be "I incorrectly titled this thread, it should be ... Sorry for my poor editing.

[TNT77]

OrangeCrush, you are correct if you add only enough Prime to treat the new water it will not neutralize chemicals in the untreated water. When you treat for the whole volume of the tank you are treating what was in the untreated part. I agree but by treating for the entire volume of the tank you are putting more Prime in the tank than you need for what is in the untreated part. If you are doing 50% or more daily water changes how much untreated chemicals are there? You should continue to treat 100% of the volume of your tank when you do water changes. I will not. We agree to disagree.
You still are not getting that prime also binds with more than just untreated water. And you do realize prime is only active for around 24 hours in the tank so by the time you do another water change you are not adding to chemicals in the tank.

[Elliots]

Tara, I agree that Prime also binds to more than untreated water. If Prime is only active for around 24 hours in the tank as you say you are adding chemicals to the water. the Prime that is in excess. The chemicals are Prime! Please re-read and re-think your post. By the time you do another water change the original prime is inactive but you are adding Prime again with your new water change. Now I have never said that excess Prime is bad, I just do not know and I prefer to add as few things as possible to my tank.

[DiscusOnly]

So Bill why do you do it that way? Please do not feel insulted. You got the idea from someone or somewhere. You probably did not do any scientific research to determine what is the correct thing to do and you did not make up the idea. I would not do scientific research or make it up either. I also get ideas from reading and from other peoples opinions and I often follow them. I believed that you always had to do 100% Prime but it did not sound right to me but I accepted the idea. I have now contacted Seacheme and their Tech Assistance says it is not always necessary to use 100%. SEACHEME GIVES CONFLICTING INFORMATION I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT 100% PRIME IS NOT ALWAYS NECESSARY. It is fine with me if you believe that 100% is correct, I am not saying you are wrong I am asking you where did you get that information?, it should be "TOO MUCH PRIME WITH WATER CHANGES?" A question mark not an explanation is the correct punctuation.
I think I mistitled this thread

The research is with Seachem printing it in the instruction. You stated that you spoke to someone from Seachem telling you that you that is different and I posted what's on the seachem website under FAQ that is consistent with their product labeling. You can agree with the one person that you spoke to because s/he tell you something that you believe.

[aalbina]

I just change 80 to 90 percent of the water and dose for the extra 10 percent left behind anyway - so I don't have to worry about it... Just sayin.

Adam

[TNT77]

Tara, I agree that Prime also binds to more than untreated water. If Prime is only active for around 24 hours in the tank as you say you are adding chemicals to the water. the Prime that is in excess. The chemicals are Prime! Please re-read and re-think your post. By the time you do another water change the original prime is inactive but you are adding Prime again with your new water change. Now I have never said that excess Prime is bad, I just do not know and I prefer to add as few things as possible to my tank.
Yes new Prime that will bond with anything in the new water and everything that is in that tank. Really think your fish stop creating waste after a water change so there is extra chemicals?

[Elliots]

DiscusOnly, I believe that person because of common sense. You are adding Prime to treat something that is not there. If you are only adding 25% of new water to a tank there is a finite amount of chlorine and other chemicals being added. Why are you treating 100% of the water? You are not going to treat the chemicals you added in the 25% water change four times. Please read the other thread about water changes where I attempt to explain mathematically what is happening by using an example of water and alcohol. If you are changing less than 100% of the water in the tank and you are treating 100% of the water there you are adding extra Prime. It is simple math. The next thing you are saying is the label says so. When I was a kid there was a sleeping medication called Thalidomide. It was labeled safe to be taken during pregnancy. Well the label was WRONG. See what happened to some babies on the internet. The label on Prime is WRONG.

[Elliots]

DiscusOnly, if I sent you a bottle labeled Arsenic and the label said "Safe for Adults" would you take it? Of course not. the label is wrong. It happens rarely but it happens.

[TNT77]

DiscusOnly, if I sent you a bottle labeled Arsenic and the label said "Safe for Adults" would you take it? Of course not. the label is wrong. It happens rarely but it happens.
If you called up and asked if arsenic was safe to take and the person said yes would you take it?

[cjr8420]

ok E one more time. if u fill a 50 gal barrel for WC on a 100 gal tank a 50% WC .then treat the 50 gal barrel for 50 gal of water then fill tank.now if u fill ur 100 gal tank with 50gal str8 from the tap u need to treat for the 100 gal .cause if u treat for 50 gal b4 u fill from the tap half of that prime is already been used from the old tank water bonding to any and all nastys in the old water ammonia nitrite nitrate and just fish poop in general the cause of them .now u have 25 gal worth of prime left in the tank and u add 50 gal that needs to be primed now u are short 25 gal worth of prime and u have some chlorine thats currently burning ur fishes gills.

[krislewis3]

Prime is cheap. Would it not be cheaper to treat the entire water load, then to test the water left after a water change, to determine if you need to treat? Those test strips are expensive!!
However, I must admit that I treat only the new water going in. I cant say that I have ever had a noticable problem with my fish (from this issue), in treating just the new water going in.

[Elliots]

cjr8420, if the remaining stuff in the tank uses up the Prime that treats 50g of water something is wrong with your tank. There is too much stuff in there. According to this idea, if that happens you should be treating with Prime DAILY to eliminate what is in the tank irregardless of how often you change the water.

krislewis, Prime is cheap. It is cheaper to treat the entire water load. I think that by treating the entire water load you are adding chemicals to your tank in excess. I prefer less chemicals. That is my position. You may not care about how much stuff you add to your tank, I do. There is no question that Prime works, what does the excess Prime do long term? No one knows. I know Prime is inactive after a period of time, someone said 24 hours, I do not know how long it is active for but it does not leave your tank and go into the air. It is even possible that Prime is beneficial long term, we just do not know.

[lipadj46]

The question should be why are you using prime when safe is so much more cost effective?

[Brent1972]

The question should be why are you using prime when safe is so much more cost effective?

Or why are you using either when all they do is suspend the C**P in the water. I use a HMA 3-pod filter that will remove sediment down to 1 micron, Chlorine and Chloramines and heavy metals, and certain volatile organic chemicals(VCO's) . This way I'm not adding any chemicals and over the life of the filters its cheaper.I still age my water but others do a constant drip feed in to the tank.

[Elliots]

Brent is correct that his filter will do the job of chemicals to treat water. The question is how fast does it do the job? Will the filter eliminate the chemicals before they effect the fish? By the way chlorine is not a heavy metal, in its natural state it is a gas.
I have slightly re-thought my position on Prime because I WAS WRONG TO ASSUME THAT THE SUGGESTED DOSAGE OF PRIME IS CORRECT ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE. As Orange Crush pointed out on another thread Prime tells you how much of what chemicals prime neutralizes. I now think the correct thing to do is test you tap water seasonally and calculte how much Prime to add to neutralize those chemicals. Now we all think Prime works. If it does work then the chemicals are neutralized in your tank. They do not become un-neutralized and re-appear in your tank. We should also test are tank water to see what is in the tank water that Prime neutralizes and add the correct dose of Prime to neutralize them. I believe that the amount of Prime per gallon that you add to tap water for neutralization is a large multiple of the amount you will add to tank water. ALWAYS ADD PRIME TO THE TANK WATER BEFORE ADDING the changed water if you use tap water. If you add water from a container add the Prime to the container and the correct amount of Prime to your tank. The time it takes Prime to work is probably seconds or fraction of seconds even when diluted in the full tank volume, it does take hours or our fish would be injured. It is not necessay to treat the unchanged tank water with the same amount per gallon of Prime you use on the "Change" water because there is less stuff to treat in the tank water. By blindly treating the entire volume of the tank we are overtreating. Now I do not know that ther excess Prime added to a tank has a bad effect on fish, I just do not like the idea of adding unnecessary chemicals. I also think it is a good idea to add some excess Prime to the tank in case of a measurement or calculation error. Are you damaging your fish by overtreating with Prime? Probably not, I personally do not like the idea of blindly adding Prime to treat 100% of your tank water. I hope this is my final position and final post on this subject. You do what you want in your tank and I'll do what I want in mine. I do not think I will be treating my fish for chemical poisoning effects nor do I think that by treating your tank with 100% Prime you will cause harm to your fish. I just do not like the idea of using unnecessary chemicals in my tank.

[Brent1972]

Brent is correct that his filter will do the job of chemicals to treat water. The question is how fast does it do the job? Will the filter eliminate the chemicals before they effect the fish? By the way chlorine is not a heavy metal, in its natural state it is a gas.

The water goes though the filter before it hits the tank. I did not think chlorine was a heavy metal:confused:

Here is a link to the filter I use http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/DD_HMA_80-C.html

and these are the replacement filters made in the US http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/HMA_80-C_Cart_Set.html

The filters last for 20,000 uk gal / 91,000L.

[Elliots]

Brent, you are correct I misread your post about chlorine. I apologize.

[Elliots]

Brent, I have not seen that filter before. Maybe it is not available in the US? If volatile organic compounds means ammonia, nitrates and nitrites it is great. If not you might still need some type of filter with beneficial bacteria.

[Brent1972]

No problem Elliots, The reason I've added to this post is because I hate adding chemicals to the tank water when there is an alternative. I want the best quality water I can have for my fish.

[Elliots]

Brent, I re-read the instructions. It appears to work on water before you put it in the tank like the chemicals some Americans use. It appears that you still need to use tank filters with BB. So basically it replaces Prime. The flow rate I believe was suggested at two liters per minute. That is good for people who store their water for changes even if it may work a little slow. I have a small apartment in NYC. I do not have room to store water so I must use tap water. At two liters per minute a 75 gallon change would take me 2 and 1/2 hours.

[Elliots]

Brent, we agree on not adding chemicals if not needed to an aquarium. I use tap water so I must use something. I try to use as little as possible that is why I do not want to add Prime to 100% of the water in my tank.

[Brent1972]

Brent, I have not seen that filter before. Maybe it is not available in the US? If volatile organic compounds means ammonia, nitrates and nitrites it is great. If not you might still need some type of filter with beneficial bacteria.

My water from the tap does not contain ammonia or nitrites. It will not remove nitrates but you can add an extra pod with a nitrate removing filter .

Here is the filter manufacturer who is based in the US website http://www.pentekfiltration.com/en-us/Home/

[cjr8420]

cjr8420, if the remaining stuff in the tank uses up the Prime that treats 50g of water something is wrong with your tank. There is too much stuff in there. According to this idea, if that happens you should be treating with Prime DAILY to eliminate what is in the tank irregardless of how often you change the water.

krislewis, Prime is cheap. It is cheaper to treat the entire water load. I think that by treating the entire water load you are adding chemicals to your tank in excess. I prefer less chemicals. That is my position. You may not care about how much stuff you add to your tank, I do. There is no question that Prime works, what does the excess Prime do long term? No one knows. I know Prime is inactive after a period of time, someone said 24 hours, I do not know how long it is active for but it does not leave your tank and go into the air. It is even possible that Prime is beneficial long term, we just do not know.
no nothing is wrong with the old tank water thats how prime works it it doesnt go inactive it gets used it will bond itself to crap in the tank .it works like that in ur tank to u may not think so but that is because u dont know what u r talking about and now u have started a thread that might have a newbs stressing their fish because they read ur BS about what u think u know

Brent is correct that his filter will do the job of chemicals to treat water. The question is how fast does it do the job? Will the filter eliminate the chemicals before they effect the fish? By the way chlorine is not a heavy metal, in its natural state it is a gas.
I have slightly re-thought my position on Prime because I WAS WRONG TO ASSUME THAT THE SUGGESTED DOSAGE OF PRIME IS CORRECT ALWAYS AND EVERYWHERE. As Orange Crush pointed out on another thread Prime tells you how much of what chemicals prime neutralizes. I now think the correct thing to do is test you tap water seasonally and calculte how much Prime to add to neutralize those chemicals. Now we all think Prime works. If it does work then the chemicals are neutralized in your tank. They do not become un-neutralized and re-appear in your tank. We should also test are tank water to see what is in the tank water that Prime neutralizes and add the correct dose of Prime to neutralize them. I believe that the amount of Prime per gallon that you add to tap water for neutralization is a large multiple of the amount you will add to tank water. ALWAYS ADD PRIME TO THE TANK WATER BEFORE ADDING the changed water if you use tap water. If you add water from a container add the Prime to the container and the correct amount of Prime to your tank. The time it takes Prime to work is probably seconds or fraction of seconds even when diluted in the full tank volume, it does take hours or our fish would be injured. It is not necessay to treat the unchanged tank water with the same amount per gallon of Prime you use on the "Change" water because there is less stuff to treat in the tank water. By blindly treating the entire volume of the tank we are overtreating. Now I do not know that ther excess Prime added to a tank has a bad effect on fish, I just do not like the idea of adding unnecessary chemicals. I also think it is a good idea to add some excess Prime to the tank in case of a measurement or calculation error. Are you damaging your fish by overtreating with Prime? Probably not, I personally do not like the idea of blindly adding Prime to treat 100% of your tank water. I hope this is my final position and final post on this subject. You do what you want in your tank and I'll do what I want in mine. I do not think I will be treating my fish for chemical poisoning effects nor do I think that by treating your tank with 100% Prime you will cause harm to your fish. I just do not like the idea of using unnecessary chemicals in my tank.
yes do what u want we will do what we want.learn more on how it works and u will hopefully see the light

[Elliots]

So Mike what is Prime doing in your tank when it is not neutralizing chlorine etc,? Is it de-activating? Is it doing nothing? Is it reacting with other chemicals in your tank? For example, Prime chemically combines with the chlorine ion and binds it so it does not react with other compounds. Read the chemical explanation that I think I saw on the Seacheme site and you'll see exactly what it does. I took Chemistry and Organic Chemistry 40 years ago and I still remember some.

[Elliots]

Mike, I just read the Seacheme Prime site on the internet. Prime takes the chloramine molecule, I think its formula is NH2Cl, it replaces the chlorine atom with a hydrogen atom giving you NH3 ammonia, and a chlorine ion Cl- It takes the chlorine molecule Cl2 and changes it to chlorine ions. I am not sure how exactly it does that as they do not explain. They then probably bind the chlorine ions to some other chemical tightly so it does not disassociate in water. That is the best I can do from my 40 years ago education. The gas Cl2 dissociates in water and forms HCl, that is hydrocloric acid. The Cl2 gas does not 100% disassociate to HCl. Mike please explain to me what I am missing. Thanks. I do not know all the chemical mechanisms but I still have an overview. The site also says that it neutralizes heavy metals. I do not know that mechanism (Reaction) is either. If you cannot explain it please find an internet site for me that explains everything and I will probably be able to follow the chemical explanation that I am unable to recreate by myself.

[cjr8420]

it works on more than just chlorine/chloramines so when put in a tank with the old water b4 u fill from the tap that old water has bad stuff in it even if u think it doesnt. then the prime will bind/neutralize that stuff so like my post b4 its already started being used b4 u put any new water in there so if u dose exactly for amount ur changing ur gonna run up short.

[Elliots]

TNT77, I have common sense and intelligence. I would not call up someone to confirm that arsenic is OK to take because the label says so. I know that it is not OK and the label is wrong. It is non-sensical to add an amount of tap water with chemicals to water without those chemicals and then treat the entire volume as if the chemicals have grown in quantity. It does not happen unless the chemicals are alive. Now you may say that Prime will also treat some compounds in the other (Tank) water. The amount of other chemicals is very small. If the amount is not very small then Prime did not work the first time you treated the change water or something is wrong in your tank. You are using more Prime than is necessary because the label tells you to. We know Prime is not expensive but do you like to add extra chemicals to your tank? I do not. If you are changing 90% of your water then I have no problem with adding a little more Prime. If you are changing 10-20-30% of your water you are adding a lot of extra prime, I do not like that. I did not say you are wrong by adding all that Prime I simply say you are adding too much Prime and I choose to add less.

[cjr8420]

try the KISS method.i feed my fish they turn it into ammonia and then the N cycle takes over prime can bind neutralize all the phases of that N cycle so ur previous clean water that was primed all that prime is inactive at the very beginning now ur fish poop and there is now stuff in the water that prime will try to bind to so when u add b4 filling from the tap it has already started working.if it was so clean then why are u changing the water in the first place,because it was not clean. this sinking in yet

[Orange Crush]

Once the prime in the tank has bonded to stuff it stays bonded and is no longer available. However, as the fish eat, poop, and pee there becomes more stuff that needs to be treated by prime the next day in the old tank water. More crap = more prime needed. Lets say you have 5mg/100 gallons of water of dissolved waste in the tank that was neutralized by prime. The next day you have 10mg/100 gallons of dissolved waste. Even if you remove 90% of the water in the tank before a wc the concentration of waste has not changed in the water that is left. You still have twice as much waste as the day before and it will be neutralized when you add the prime. Leaving some of the new water in the tank not treated.

[TNT77]

Give it up guys the same thing has been said over and over 20 times in 2 different threads. He is either too dumb to understand (which I doubt from his post but hey who knows) or just refuses to see what is being said to validate his opinion. It classic I want to believe something and I will find one person who says what I want to hear and refuse to listen to countless others because I believe I am right syndrome. I think we have made the point to any newcomers on both threads. If he wishes to slowly burn his fish's gills up with chlorine let him. Its his choice we cannot make him do something he does not want to do.

[krislewis3]

I don't treat the entire tank when I change 10%of the water!!!! But, for those that recommend testing the remaining water to see if there is chlorine in it, I say...it's cheaper to treat it then it is to keep biuying teat strips just to see IF it needs treatment!!! Again, I'm with you Elliots!!!

[Bill63SG]

I don't treat the entire tank when I change 10%of the water!!!!Are you keeping discus or goldfish?

[Elliots]

Hi Bill, I am still waiting to hear your explanation of why you treat 100% of the tank water with Prime. I have told you why I do not. Please do not be insulted but I really want to know.

[krislewis3]

Say what???

[krislewis3]

Sooooooo, are you saying that if you went 2 weeks without a water change, you would have to add prime every day for those two weeks?

[krislewis3]

I do 50% WC daily for my discus aquarium.....I also have a 40gallon community tank with rams, dwarf gouramis, and various other fish. There are times when do small WC on this tank, and when I do a small WC, I don't use prime to treat the entire tank. I am more careful with my discus tank.

[Altum Nut]

This thread clearly does not have a dead-end.
Elliots...you have made it clear over and over again that it's your way or no way for yourself. It's clear we all have our own ways that work for each individual. Why not just drop it and move on. I can only speak for myself but sure many others are on the same page that I treat the entire tank volume with Safe and not just for water added. Been doing so for many-many years with Wilds and Domestic Discus/Angels.
Have never had any issues or i would have changed my ways years ago.

...Ralph

[DerekFF]

I have now contacted Seacheme and their Tech Assistance says it is not always necessary to use 100%. SEACHEME GIVES CONFLICTING INFORMATION I CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THAT 100% PRIME IS NOT ALWAYS NECESSARY.

Seachem does no give conflicting information, they give a safe blanket dosing instructions that will be safe for anyone to use. They dont have the space on the bottle nor does anyone care for them to give you a sliding scale or instructions for differently stocked/decorated/set ups. Seachem is not harmful to fish and no one else cares that you "dont want to add chemicals"to to you tank. Its proven safe at levels of just the WC volume and 100% of the volume of the tank.


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[cjr8420]

Hi Bill, I am still waiting to hear your explanation of why you treat 100% of the tank water with Prime. I have told you why I do not. Please do not be insulted but I really want to know.how about for the reasons i stated multiple times that u refuse to use common sense and accept but what ever floats ur boat


I don't treat the entire tank when I change 10%of the water!!!! But, for those that recommend testing the remaining water to see if there is chlorine in it, I say...it's cheaper to treat it then it is to keep biuying teat strips just to see IF it needs treatment!!! Again, I'm with you Elliots!!!if ur only changing 10% then all ur doing is wasting time and energy cause 10% dont do squat


Sooooooo, are you saying that if you went 2 weeks without a water change, you would have to add prime every day for those two weeks? lol DDD


I do 50% WC daily for my discus aquarium.....I also have a 40gallon community tank with rams, dwarf gouramis, and various other fish. There are times when do small WC on this tank, and when I do a small WC, I don't use prime to treat the entire tank. I am more careful with my discus tank.do u fill a barrel for WC or go str8 from tap to tank either way read back to my first post lol

[krislewis3]

You say that changing 10% dosent do squat! Let me explain........remember that I'm not referring to my discus aquarium, but to my smaller community tank. I use sand as a substrate, which makes the fish poo-poo and the left over food very noticeable. The 10% wc, is what comes out of the tank after using my python to clean the substrate. Am I really wasting my time? I'll leave it to the more experienced, to answer that.
I do 50% wc on the community tank 2 x weekly...on the discus tank, 50% daily wc.

[nc0gnet0]

Oh for the love of Pete, give it a rest already.

[lipadj46]

Oh for the love of Pete, give it a rest already.

The inmates are running the asylum this week lol!

[krislewis3]

If nothing else..........it's a learning experience........

[lipadj46]

Yeah, seachem's reasoning for dosing the entire tank volume never made much sense, but on the flip side i doubt most know the ppm of chlorine/amine in their water so erring on the side of caution can't hurt espescially when safe is so cheap and will not hurt anything

[Elliots]

I DO NOT ADVOCATE THIS AT ALL and I would never do it but if Prime is so good at removing the organics from the fish waste why not just add Prime and do no water changes?

[nc0gnet0]

Seriously, this thread wore out it usefullness after the first page. For starters it belongs in the "beginners" section. So stop all the prepubescent bickering, and when in doubt, follow the instructions already.

[hedut]

wkwkwk this so FUNNY :D;)

[krislewis3]

Being new to discus....these kind of debates bring out information and experience..NOT a waste of time!!

[DerekFF]

Seriously, this thread wore out it usefullness after the first page. For starters it belongs in the "beginners" section. So stop all the prepubescent bickering, and when in doubt, follow the instructions already.

This thread became retarded when it was posted

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[DiscusDrew]

Good lord this thread is six pages long..... That is sad.....

[Trier20]

Ok my head is spinning! Glad I didn't join this crap shoot! Lol

[AngryBird]

I just wasted 20 minutes of my life lol...

[DiscusDrew]

LOL I didnt have the patience to read past page one... sure as heck wasnt about to spend 20 minutes diving in over a 5 cent cap of prime haha

[Larry Bugg]

For what it is worth, I heard back from my contact at Seachem. Here is his reply. Pretty much what has already been stated by a lot of people here.


Hey Larry,

Sorry I am just getting back to you, I have been out of the office at a show. We are very happy to sponsor such events and I am gladd that it was a success. Just wish I could have made it, especially for the auction!

To address the dosing of water conditioners, we must first look at how they function. All water dechlor or conditioners function by employing a reducing agent. This compound reduces and binds with assorted molecules to render them harmless. In the case of chlorine, a reducing agent will break the bond between the two atoms resulting in two chloride atoms. The same happens with chloramine only this results in three chloride atoms and a nitrogen. Most conditioners, especially Prime and Safe, also bind with other compounds to render them harmless. Ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate are just a few of the common compounds that are effected. So, when you add Prime to a solution containing ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and chlorine, some of the Prime will break apart the chlorine and some will bind with the other compounds. So, if you are doing a water change in a tank that contains a fair amount of nitrate or some other compound, some of the conditioner will be utilized to detoxify these and will not be available to break apart the chlorine or chloramine. If you treat the water before adding it to the aquarium, the conditioner will remove any of the chlorine and chloramine. Any remaining conditioner will then bind with other compounds when added to the tank.

So... if adding water to the tank before treating, it is best to treat for the volume of the entire aquarium. This ensures that there is enough of the conditioner available to remove any chlorine or chloramine, without being effected by any ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate currently in the water. Think of it this way, when treating water before adding it to the tank, there are less harmful compounds to be detoxified. When adding it to the tank first, the conditioner will have more than just chlorine and chloramine to detoxify and therefore will require a larger dose. With Prime and Safe being as concentrated as they are, this typically requires little product but, is a great way to ensure your fish are safe.

Hope this helps, let me know if you have any additional questions or need me to clarify anything.

[DiscusOnly]

Thanks for posting the info. I think it would be great if this is added in a FAQ under the water section of the forum. This is a great explanation of how water conditioner works.

[Elliots]

Thanks Larry, now we can lay this thread to rest.