discus mouth deformed ????

[tom g]

hey there forum , i have a question about a discus i have in quarantene , previous was he was in qt tank with another one , the one since passed .
they both i beleive were stressed and stopped eating due to poss parasite .
what i have is a orange discus i am not sure if its pigeon blood but was told it was a orange type .
he was in qt and very skinny. since last question his color is back. and hes plumped up.what i notice now is that his bottom lip looks as if it has severe underbite
i can get him to stop or to the glass to get a pic it almost looks as if his lip is missing and his mouth is just open.
he is hiding in corner , his color is bright .i dont think i have seen him eat but he is not skinny or emansipated.
not sure where to go here ,
qt tank.dailey water changes with RO waater .
thanks
tom

Please complete the questionnaire if your fish are sick (copy and paste)

DISEASE QUESTIONNAIRE


Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish/when and how they started.....
mouth deformed , can not get a good pic,





2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/ white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds)........
.do not see him eating or chasingfood wheni feed dailey.
open mouth ,seems like a dogs underbite mouth open , staying in corner of qt tank, color seems ok bright orange .






3. What medications/ treatments that you have already tried and results. Include dosages and duration of treatment......
metro plus for previous treatment and deworming meds one treatment ,white poop gone or seems to have cleared up





Tank/Water

4. Tank size and age, number and size of fish
qt tank
one discus
approx 3 in



5. Water change regime/ how long has tank been running/ bare bottom or gravel/ do you age your water?.....
bare bottom qt tank
dailey wataer change
r.o water



6 Parameters and water source;
a=0
no3=0
no2=0
p.h=7.8 poss little less as the color on API test kit was a shade lighter


- temp __82___

- ph _____

- ammonia reading ____

- nitrite reading ____

- nitrate reading ____

- well water ____

- municipal water __ro water__

7. Any new fish/plants added recently

[strawberryblonde]

Hmmm, it actually looks like his upper lip is deformed, but I might not be looking at the picture correctly.

I have an oddball question - do you add trace elements to the water since you are using straight RO?

Next question - what foods are you feeding him and how often?

The reason I'm asking is that I have NO idea if it's genetic or if it has developed recently, but I do know that sometimes fish can develop deformities from a lack of essentials minerals and vitamins. (same as humans)

[DiscusDrew]

I agree its his upper lip that appears to be deformed. Was he always this way? Thats a good catch by strawberry about using something to remineralize, thats a question that needs answered. I will say this, he appears to be pretty stunted from the little I can see and depict from eye count. I doubt this will recover honestly speaking. If I had fry with anything remotely similar it would have been culled :( I dont mean that rude my friend, you also said that he is still not eating as far as you can tell? And he is remaining isolated? What happened to the other fish prior to death? I would be very careful for now not to use ANY equipment from this tank on any other tank, same goes for washing of hands and so forth. The fish could have both been carrying something pretty fierce.

[tom g]

This has just happened recently since he's been int the QT tank
No trace elements.in the qt tank.
What am I feeding beef heart, nls growth, flakes, blood worms ,4 times a day varying food
Sometimes, omega floating pellats with garlic..will exersize caution when
Dealing with tank thank u. As far as I can tell with the other I think it was
Parasites.will see what his condition is tonite ,if the same may consider the other
Thanks

[DiscusDrew]

No trace elements = very very not good, you NEED to reconstitute your water or you will have deformities and deficiencies in your fish over time, consistently. Fix that first, RO right is very easy to find, or if necessary you can reconstitute with tap water, at least that is getting your trace elements back into the water. They cant live in PURE RO water without developing problems eventually. I suspect this is a bigger problem than you may realize.

[Lenin]

I would cull and if you're using RO you need to add trace elements, also if you're not breeding discus you really don't need RO water. The reason for the culling is that I don't think you can fix his problem now.

[DiscusDrew]

I can about guarantee that isnt gonna ever fix itself, so I agree Lenin. In my fish room it would be hit on the head and ended. If you dont mind the deformity then reconstitute your water and then well, hopefully he will recover but if hes already progressed to deformities then dont be too surprised if there are internal issues that present themselves.

[Poco]

I'm a bit confused isn't RO suppose to remove minerals, making the water soft. How come the pH is still 7.8? Doesn't this mean there are still some minerals in the water? Please correct me if Im wrong.

[DiscusDrew]

That is a deffinitely unusual, Id like a response to that one too, perhaps a membrane needs to be replaced? In which case the deformiity wouldnt have been caused by lack of trace minerals... Good catch Poco.

[tom g]

What is best rec way to cull

[DiscusDrew]

several different methods, I hit them right above the eyes on the forehead, relatively hard, it knocks out the central nervous system instantly. Others just put them in a bag and into the freezer. Others get a bucket of super super cold ice filled water and put the fish into it, the fish goes to sleep basically within a minute or three and then freeze the fish. I've also heard of tricks with clove oil. Some even just throw them outside. Its all what your comfortable with.

[Chicago Discus]

I use clove oil to sedate them first its very humane....Josie

[lipadj46]

If you are too squeemish and don't want to go all midevil on them you can use clove oil or pimafix to knock them out first. Then you can kill them with alcohol, freeze them or body hammer blow them into the woods with a clear conscience.

[tom g]

the question to the water hardness is that the API test kit i have does not go lower so i said the color was lighter then the 7.8 on the card
just a guesstamite i know its not a perfect result . i will chk ro water with tds meter . and i will see if i can use my ph metere from my main tank.
i will top up with tap water . only reason i was using the ro water is i assumed that was ok.
on the good side for what it is i did see him eating , he takes it into his mouth then blows it out but then goes in again . i think i read this on this site is that a normal
behaviour.i will monitor him this week and see how it goes .
thanks for the help

i just tested the ph. i used the high side ph test instead of the low. it was reading 6.4 ,tds meter dropped in a bucket of water so its reading all funky trying to dry it out as we type.

[Brent1972]

I'm a bit confused isn't RO suppose to remove minerals, making the water soft. How come the pH is still 7.8? Doesn't this mean there are still some minerals in the water? Please correct me if Im wrong.

You can still have soft water with a high ph, my water out of tap is 40-50 tds but my ph is 7.4 .

[Lenin]

OK, so just to say this again, if you're not breeding do not use RO
The PH is probably very low.
To cull, I cut off their head

If you do decide to change to tap, DO NOT DO IT AT ONE TIME, you must gradually introduce them to it, start mixing 10% of tap water on every water change until you reach 100% or your desired end state.

[tom g]

no worries i will ease into it , my display tank is tap water with prime declorinator so i dont use r.o water all the time just for convenince since the qt tank is in the basement i used it .

[Eddie]

No trace elements = very very not good, you NEED to reconstitute your water or you will have deformities and deficiencies in your fish over time, consistently. Fix that first, RO right is very easy to find, or if necessary you can reconstitute with tap water, at least that is getting your trace elements back into the water. They cant live in PURE RO water without developing problems eventually. I suspect this is a bigger problem than you may realize.

RO right actually has very little of the right trace elements. Depending on the hardness of the water, an RO/tap mix would probably be better or adding specific minerals such as calcium, magnesium would be the best option.

As far as the fish, not sure at this point but I'll be surprised if it grows the lip back. I'd do as Lenin suggested and cull it. It looks to be very poor quality all in all.

[dpete9]

How long did it take for his mouth to go from normal to looking like that?
I think he had an injury to his mouth that became infected but whatever it is I agree with the others he's too far gone :-( sorry

[Chicago Discus]

RO right actually has very little of the right trace elements. Depending on the hardness of the water, an RO/tap mix would probably be better or adding specific minerals such as calcium, magnesium would be the best option.

As far as the fish, not sure at this point but I'll be surprised if it grows the lip back. I'd do as Lenin suggested and cull it. It looks to be very poor quality all in all.

+1 He is right you can find the magnesium and calcium products you need by searching for marine additives...Josie

[jimg]

RO right actually has very little of the right trace elements. what info is this based on? just curious, i have heard before some don't care for it but others say it's fine. is there something other brands have that ro right don't as far as trace elements? I use it but I also add 1/4 of sera mineral salts to get what I want.

[Eddie]

what info is this based on? just curious, i have heard before some don't care for it but others say it's fine. is there something other brands have that ro right don't as far as trace elements? I use it but I also add 1/4 of sera mineral salts to get what I want.

If it was enough, than why do you add the Sera?

[jimg]

If it was enough, than why do you add the Sera? for one I like to experiment and two I add the sera because it increases the calcium more but alone raises ph too much where ro right does not raise ph as much. back to the main question you say ro right has little of the right trace elements. what elements are you speaking of? what is ro right lacking in trace elements that the others have?

[Eddie]

for one I like to experiment and two I add the sera because it increases the calcium more but alone raises ph too much where ro right does not raise ph as much. back to the main question you say ro right has little of the right trace elements. what elements are you speaking of? what is ro right lacking in trace elements that the others have?

It lacks adequate amounts of calcium. If you've used it alone and had good results...thats great, others including myself have not. Not all people add minerals back into the water nor do they need to. I'm saying its insufficient and apparently it is for you too. Need anything else?

[jimg]

as far as I know calcium is a major element. trace elements like boron, manganese, potassium,iodine, etc
I am not questioning you to pick on something you posted so no need for the pissy ending! I am questioning because maybe you found info on the salts that I couldn't find and many have no complaints at all with using it but a couple do so when i'm unsure I ask. I just got back into experimenting with the salts for altums/heckles so I am mixing as an experiment maybe I will find I don't like adding sera. if you don't have the correct answer just don't answer

[Eddie]

as far as I know calcium is a major element. trace elements like boron, manganese, potassium,iodine, etc
I am not questioning you to pick on something you posted so no need for the pissy ending! I am questioning because maybe you found info on the salts that I couldn't find and many have no complaints at all with using it but a couple do so when i'm unsure I ask. I just got back into experimenting with the salts for altums/heckles so I am mixing as an experiment maybe I will find I don't like adding sera. if you don't have the correct answer just don't answer

Oops, should have said major element. LOL

[tom g]

update on deformed lip. shortly after contemplating culling this fish i decdied against it .i did as requested and switched the straight RO water to mixed tap water aged , and slowly acllimidated to pure tap water aged .the discus lip is still deformed but i must say the swelling has subsided.i wanted to try something so after i saw he was eating i added two of the larger juvies in with him .his behaviour at first was no probs then he decided to bully the juvies but a few days in they seem to be getting along swimming togeather and of course he is dominant to the juvies as he races to food first , i have to agree him alone in the qt tank was prob what was putting him in range of deaths door , he is eating reg as are the other juvies getting quite plump as well. there diet is various flake food pellets,beef heart ,and nls growth formula.im not sure when would be a good time to put all three into the main display tank or should i wait till the other two start getting larger .
any ideas would be appreciated
thanks