Need Advice

[Daneek155]

So i have a 90 g med planted tank./
2 swords
1 crypt
1 luteua
1 anubuis
1 plant with short break offs dont know the name.

i am currently running a odyssea t5 ho light thats made for quad but i only run 2 bulbs. one 6500k and one 5500k for plants.
i have a presurized co2 system with a solinoid on a timer as well. my ph stays pretty stable at around 6.2 to 6.4
kh of 5 and a gh of 8.ive been dosing liquid ferts but now switched to dry ferts.
i currently have 2 angels/4 rams/5 ottos/7 cardinal tetra/2 siemise algae eaters/4 corys.

I am planning to keep discus soon but want to get my tank completly perfect before. i will most likely rehome the angels and simease algae eaters before.

Heres my problem,, my tap water has a ph of 8. when i let it sit overnight airarte it it drops to like 7. i have been doing water changes with a python by just dumping the water straight from my bathroom sink into the tank and declorinating it slowly as it fills up. i have lost 2 rams recently and i think is is from the ph shock becasue they both got parisites and they died like a month apart. what would you guys reccomend the best thing for me to do? i travel from mon to fri and home only sat sunday and im sort of small on space to hold a big trash can filled with water just for water changes.

[Floppy Fin's]

Personally, I would forget the Discus...they need daily care and if young ones, almost Tri hourly... Do you have fish educated partners in the house?

[Daneek155]

im planning on buying 5 or 6 inch ones and my wife can do a water change during the week and feed

[discuspaul]

With 5" or 6" discus it could work out quite satisfactorily with 2 wcs per week, with your wife doing one of the wcs.

Discus can do well with pH of 8.0 out of the tap, so that would not a concern, if it didn't drop precipitously and quickly in your tank after doing a wc.

However, moderately-sized wcs with water straight out of the tap would likely only impact the pH in your tank to a modest degree when doing a wc, so it can be safe. Then your tank pH should stabilize slowly overnite & remain so until the next wc.

Why don't you test it out a few times now, before you get any discus, and see how it goes with appropriately timed testing of the pH.
It would be best though, if you can find the space somewhere to accommodate say, a 30 to 40 gal container for your wcs, and age your tap water between wcs.
And yes, re-home the Angels & SAE's, AND the Otos as well, since both SAE's & Otos may at times take a liking to discus' slime coats as part of their diet.

[Daneek155]

With 5" or 6" discus it could work out quite satisfactorily with 2 wcs per week, with your wife doing one of the wcs.

Discus can do well with pH of 8.0 out of the tap, so that would not a concern, if it didn't drop precipitously and quickly in your tank after doing a wc.

However, moderately-sized wcs with water straight out of the tap would likely only impact the pH in your tank to a modest degree when doing a wc, so it can be safe. Then your tank pH should stabilize slowly overnite & remain so until the next wc.

Why don't you test it out a few times now, before you get any discus, and see how it goes with appropriately timed testing of the pH.
It would be best though, if you can find the space somewhere to accommodate say, a 30 to 40 gal container for your wcs, and age your tap water between wcs.
And yes, re-home the Angels & SAE's, AND the Otos as well, since both SAE's & Otos may at times take a liking to discus' slime coats as part of their diet.

Thanks

i did about 50 percent water change and the water went from 6.4 to like 6.8 maybe 7. what about putting a net blocking some of the tank so the fish dont go indirect of the python because i noticed that some fish were like right at the output.
or i was debating on giving up on the high light and delete the co2 and get a led and hold some low light plants to add some green...

[discuspaul]

6.4 to 6.8 with a wc is quite acceptable - even if rising to 7.0 it should be safe. Try doing about 40% wcs and see what the change is. That should do it nicely.
Just keep the fish away from the output - it's doable. Discus will very likely stay away from the output while you're doing wcs anyway.
To get started with discus and get comfortably familiar with their traits & behaviors, it would be a good idea to forego the CO2, and reduce the light intensity, at least for a while, till you get the hang of properly looking after discus.

[Orange Crush]

2 water changes a week are a bare minimum in my opinion for adults (5-6") and you will have to do those once every few days not Saturday and Sunday. If you buy discus that are smaller you will have to do even more frequent water changes. And reguardless of their size if they get sick they will need daily water changes without exception.
The less frequent water changes you do as maintance the more likely the discus will get sick. Just keep that in mind and make sure that your wife is okay with having to do at least one water change per week since you will not be around and that she will have to do them everyday M-F if the discus get sick.
I did CO2 in the tank my discus are in now but I stopped once I put discus in there because they need very consistant water conditions (especially pH). Going from 7 down to 6.2-6.4 is not okay and if you are going to only be doing 2 water changes a week then you are at great risk for killing them. I do have plants still in that tank that would prefer CO2 but are doing okay without (just not flourishing as much as they could but better than killing my discus!). You could always try not using CO2 or using Seachem Excel (will melt vals and some other plants though so check on that first).

[discuspaul]

2 water changes per week are not a bare minimum for successfully keeping adult discus. Many discus-keepers maintain healthy mature fish for long periods with just a weekly wc.

And the pH reducing from 7 down to 6.2-6.4 is not at all risking killing the fish, if that reduction takes place over a relatively reasonable period of time - i.e. a day, overnite, even a few hours. That is why newly bought discus can be safely acclimated, for example, when coming out of 7 pH water and being introduced into a tank with pH of 6. The acclimation under these circumstances can take place safely over the a period of as little as an hour or two. It's only when the pH change is quite large, say over 1.0 for example, and occurs very rapidly, i.e. if it is immediate, that poses a risk to the fish.
A gradual change in pH, up or down, poses no undue risk to discus.

And the less frequently you do wcs is not necessarily the more likely the fish will get sick. They may not thrive with infrequent wcs (i.e. not less frequently than weekly), their growth potential may be limited, and they may possibly undergo some stress, but if tank cleansing, filtration needs, & other maintenance is well undertaken, the more mature fish will not usually get sick.
It is only the younger fish whose immune systems have not well developed, that are likely prone to health problems if wcs are not maintained frequently.

[Daneek155]

Thanks for all the help....

I am going to try to find some room for a 44 g bucket in my closet.
Does anyone own a led light that grows low light plants and which one if I were to delete the co2

[Orange Crush]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think discuspaul is posting a hope for the best case scenario whereas I am posting on the cautionary side of things. I just do not want people getting discus without realizing that discus take more time and care then other fish. Not saying they are difficult to care for, just a lot more time consuming. You cannot just throw them in a tank and do water changes whenever you feel like it and have them tolerate whatever like a guppy would.
OP, just keep in mind that almost every single person on this forum that have posted in the disease forum are not doing daily water changes. It is very rare to see someone who does daily water changes post there. Clean water = strong immune system.

[Daneek155]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think discuspaul is posting a hope for the best case scenario whereas I am posting on the cautionary side of things. I just do not want people getting discus without realizing that discus take more time and care then other fish. Not saying they are difficult to care for, just a lot more time consuming. You cannot just throw them in a tank and do water changes whenever you feel like it and have them tolerate whatever like a guppy would.
OP, just keep in mind that almost every single person on this forum that have posted in the disease forum are not doing daily water changes. It is very rare to see someone who does daily water changes post there. Clean water = strong immune system.


I totally agree with you... That's why I'm not rushing into it. I am making sure I can keep the right water conditions for them before I buy them.
That's why any advice would be great to hear from discus owners.

[discuspaul]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I think discuspaul is posting a hope for the best case scenario whereas I am posting on the cautionary side of things. I just do not want people getting discus without realizing that discus take more time and care then other fish. Not saying they are difficult to care for, just a lot more time consuming. You cannot just throw them in a tank and do water changes whenever you feel like it and have them tolerate whatever like a guppy would.
OP, just keep in mind that almost every single person on this forum that have posted in the disease forum are not doing daily water changes. It is very rare to see someone who does daily water changes post there. Clean water = strong immune system.


Well, some folks have their views and I have mine.

I'm not at all posting a hope for the best case scenario, I'm posting based on my experiences over many years.
Discus-keeping, like all other aquarist endeavors in this hobby, is a grey area, not black & white, and requires a little discernment and common sense, to go along with the results of keeping fish over many years.
I choose not to be a nay-sayer, simply not repeating those emphatic, adamant commentaries that one has read or heard about discus-keeping. It's fine not to take any undue risks, but I believe there is a fine line between going overboard with cautions, simply stating inaccuracies about what is risky and what is not, and what a discus-keeper can safely apply based on one's experience with actually doing it.
The OP was asking what can work in a given circumstance, and I am simply stating the parameters under which his particular circumstances can be safely effective.
If that's agreeing to disagree, then let's go with that, but let's not put any unecessary blocks in in the newbie's path to deter him from doing the things that can work.

[Orange Crush]

Yes, doing 2 water changes per week can work but not always, look at the disease section. Doing daily water changes has a much, much better chance of working and preventing sick discus. I am speaking from personal experience - I do daily water changes and I have never had sick discus, and also from what I have seen as a common theme with people posting in the disease section (not doing daily water changes).
I do not think that informing someone what caring for discus can be like is going overboard or nay-saying. It is better they realize now that it might require doing daily water changes, I never said they had to do daily water changes (unless the fish are sick) but that it is the best way to prevent illness.
Personally, I would be upset if I was told I could do 2 wc's a week, bought some discus, they eventually got sick and then found out it could most likely have been avoided by doing more frequent water changes - especially if daily water changes was something that I just do not have the time for because then I never would have bought them in the first place.

[discuspaul]

Continuing this discussion is not doing you, me, or Daneek any good, so I'll say no more.
Let's allow Daneek to make up his, or her, mind about how to proceed, based on the information in this thread and whatever other research Daneek may have done & digested to his or her satisfaction.

[Orange Crush]

Continuing this discussion is not doing you, me, or Daneek any good
Well, it's not doing you or me any good, can't speak for Daneek though. lol ;)

[Jdizon20]

Sorry to hijack, but I for one found this exchange very interesting. As a newbie myself, I personally felt that when I decided to jump into discus, the many threads in Simply do create that barrier to entry into the hobby with all the warning signs about discus fish keeping ie a lot of work, 50-95 wc daily, unlike any other fish, super sensitive, fear of stunting them, keep everything perfect etc. I've also read experienced discus keepers on these forums that write that discus are not as hard to keep, advice to keep it simple, just keep the water clean, good stock and nutrition. I'm sure many discus keepers that follow discuspauls guidelines successfully keep discus but don't necessarily post their success nor promote less daily water changes. It makes sense that only people that neglect water changes/water parameters, didn't take precautions, allowed some risk post into the disease/sickness. Once I read enough of the forums and spoken to sponsors I've bought fish from, it all makes sense. You take a bit from here and some from there and make up your own recipe. In the end I think that having a mix of views/experiences as a recipe for successful discus keeping is great because it allows newcomers to learn from everyone's experience, understand the risks but not be afraid to embrace the hobby. Anyways again sorry to hijack, Thanks orange crush and discus Paul for sharing your knowledge.

[mcishaque]

My experience has been that beefheart dirties the water very quickly, and more than once a week WCs are necessary. If you are not feeding beef heart, you should be fine with weekly WCs. I've been feeding mine pellets, frozen black worms, frozen mysis shrimp, and frozen blood worms for over a year with once a week water changes without any issues. Obviously, try to be careful about not overfeeding.

As far as PH swing is concerned, you can put it 1 tablespoon of baking soda per 40 gallons of water. It acts as a buffer and helps resist PH swings. That ought to remove the need to age your water, and alleviate your space concerns.

[Daneek155]

My experience has been that beefheart dirties the water very quickly, and more than once a week WCs are necessary. If you are not feeding beef heart, you should be fine with weekly WCs. I've been feeding mine pellets, frozen black worms, frozen mysis shrimp, and frozen blood worms for over a year with once a week water changes without any issues. Obviously, try to be careful about not overfeeding.

As far as PH swing is concerned, you can put it 1 tablespoon of baking soda per 40 gallons of water. It acts as a buffer and helps resist PH swings. That ought to remove the need to age your water, and alleviate your space concerns.

Would I put the baking soda in the aquarium????



So I marked the tank down and I changed 40% of water. The ph went from 6.4 to 7.0...than in about 6 hr it is at 6.4 again... Is that ok????

[Orange Crush]

So I marked the tank down and I changed 40% of water. The ph went from 6.4 to 7.0...than in about 6 hr it is at 6.4 again... Is that ok????
I would not risk it. Even if it would not kill them it will stress them out if they are continously having the pH change on them. Then they will get sick from the stress of it.

[mcishaque]

So now you know that after a 40% WC, your PH goes 6.4 -> 7 and then back to 6.4 after six hours.

Here's what I'd try: next time you do a 40% WC, take out the 40% WC, add one tablespoon of baking soda per 40 gallons of water + prime or whatever water conditioner you use and then fill the tank up.

Now measure your PH immediately after the WC. I expect it'll be close to a 7. Then test your PH six hours later. I expect it'll be much closer to 7 than a 6.4.. maybe a 6.9 or 6.8; then test it again after 24 hours; again, the buffering effect of baking soda should yield a higher PH than 6.4... may be a 6.6 or 6.7.

The bottom line is that the baking soda should help buffer PH swings, giving the discus more time to adjust to the drop in PH after a WC.

[Daneek155]

So now you know that after a 40% WC, your PH goes 6.4 -> 7 and then back to 6.4 after six hours.

Here's what I'd try: next time you do a 40% WC, take out the 40% WC, add one tablespoon of baking soda per 40 gallons of water + prime or whatever water conditioner you use and then fill the tank up.

Now measure your PH immediately after the WC. I expect it'll be close to a 7. Then test your PH six hours later. I expect it'll be much closer to 7 than a 6.4.. maybe a 6.9 or 6.8; then test it again after 24 hours; again, the buffering effect of baking soda should yield a higher PH than 6.4... may be a 6.6 or 6.7.

The bottom line is that the baking soda should help buffer PH swings, giving the discus more time to adjust to the drop in PH after a WC.
I'll try that I just neve heard that method before.

[Orange Crush]

"The key to pH is to maintain a stable level at all times. Even moderate fluctuations in pH can be harmful, if not fatal, to your fish."
A quote from "Beginner's Guide to Getting Started with Discus". There is a lot of great info in that "stickie" and is worth a read. hth

[Daneek155]

"The key to pH is to maintain a stable level at all times. Even moderate fluctuations in pH can be harmful, if not fatal, to your fish."
A quote from "Beginner's Guide to Getting Started with Discus". There is a lot of great info in that "stickie" and is worth a read. hth

I did read through those and much more. what im confused about is that when it rains the ph of the water does not come down as the ph in the river so it does switch a lil but to what extent what im trying to get. ive been reading alot and getting great info in this tread.

[mcishaque]

I'll try that I just neve heard that method before.

Baking Soda raises the KH of the water, and thus acts as a PH buffer. Do a search on "baking soda", and you'll see that it has been mentioned by other members from time to time, and is indeed used by other members as well.

This method will help if your water has low KH. Based on your "drops from 7 to 6.4 after 6 hours comment", and CO2 injection, I suspect your tap water could use more KH.

Make sure you are using 100% baking soda and NOT baking powder (ingredient should read Sodium Bicarbonate or Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate or NaHCO3). Can be found in any ol' grocery store.

[mcishaque]

I'll try that I just neve heard that method before.

Well? Did you follow suggestion, and did your tests yield positive promise?

[Daneek155]

Well? Did you follow suggestion, and did your tests yield positive promise?

Not yet man I am still doing some research on it.so I would have to that before every water change correct?

[Daneek155]

Could it cause my kh to jump around a lot ? Anyone want to chime in on the baking soda idea ?

[Daneek155]

So I tested my tap water and my kh is 6 and the gh is 6 as well