Not that it'll do any good..

[MaiaDee]

I've copied and pasted an email I just sent to the "breeder/dealer" I bought my discus from. The more I learn and the more I look at these fish, the angrier I am. I feel a bit ripped off. I know everyone eventually has a less than positive experience, but I had to let him know my feelings.

I don't know if it's poor form to complain about a specific breeder/dealer on the forum, but I'd really like to help others new to discus avoid this place.
So, without further comment, here is my email to The Fish Den:

I wanted to take a moment to let you know how disappointing the discus you sent me are.

First issue was the sloppy packaging. Both of the Turquoises' bags leaked during shipping. One of the fish didn't even have enough water left to completely cover him. I feel very lucky we were able to save him.

Secondly, both the Cobalt Blue discus you sent are obviously stunted. As a breeder/dealer, I would think it would be obvious to you immediately that these are not good/healthy fish. Their football shape and large eyes are very evident and every discus keeper knows that is not the condition a responsible breeder should be selling.

Thirdly, the Pigeon Bloods are both peppered. Again, a responsible breeder would not send these fish to buyer unless the condition had been clearly communicated.

As I've only had the fish in my care for 4 days, I think it's obvious that you sent me sub par discus, not poor conditions on my part.

It's now apparent to me why your prices seemed so "reasonable". Had you communicated the fish you were sending at the prices you quoted were not genetically sound, that I was risking receiving below average fish, I would have nothing to complain about. Unfortunately for me, I trusted you and the reviews on Aquabid. Never again.

Regards,
Maia Dee

[John_Nicholson]

Which John?

-john

[TNT77]

Which John?

-john
The Fish Den

[MaiaDee]

Which John?

-john

At The Fish Den. I'll remove the name to avoid confusion. Sorry about that.

[Orange Crush]

I think it is important that people be informed consumers but in many cases people buy discus then join the forum or they join the forum but do not want to pay for the shipping of SD sponser discus or for shipping of other high quality discus.
It's not your fault if you do not know before you buy what to look for and 100% the fault of the breeder for selling subpar discus. Unfortunately, they know there are plently of people who will buy their stuff. So, good for you for complaining about it. Hopefully you can spare someone else from buying his fish and maybe you can get a refund from him if you want to try.

[MaiaDee]

I think it is important that people be informed consumers but in many cases people buy discus then join the forum or they join the forum but do not want to pay for the shipping of SD sponser discus or for shipping of other high quality discus.
It's not your fault if you do not know before you buy what to look for and 100% the fault of the breeder for selling subpar discus. Unfortunately, they know there are plently of people who will buy their stuff. So, good for you for complaining about it. Hopefully you can spare someone else from buying his fish and maybe you can get a refund from him if you want to try.

Thanks for you supportive comments, OC. Appreciate that.

I think trying to get a refund would just be an exercise in futility and I don't need the frustration. Buyer beware, live and learn, ect ect...I'm trying to view it as a challenge to grow these fish as pretty as possible

[dprais1]

Just posting here about your bad experience may not do YOU any good, but it may do someone else A LOT of good.

[MaiaDee]

Just posting here about your bad experience may not do YOU any good, but it may do someone else A LOT of good.

That is my hope. The thread title actually refers to sending the email to the seller. That's the part that won't do me any good. I wanted to share it here to warn others. I guess I could have titled it better :)

[Orange Crush]

I bet talking about it on this thread is helping you feel better too. If so, then it is doing you some good. :)

[DiscusDrew]

While everything you said is very true, you have to realize that the information you attained since being on this forum is not common knowledge. This does not justify the seller's actions by any means, in fact its for this very reason (ignorance) that they have the business they have honestly. They dont HAVE to breed or sell high quality discus, because not many people DEMAND high quality discus unfortunately, and most of the ones that do you will find here on this lovely forum. Next thing you know the whole world thinks discus are impossible to raise, when in reality its simply a result of fish dieing because of people a) not knowing what they are doing and being under informed and b) recieving sub-par discus that are more prone to problems to begin with. Thats why we should all have somewhat of a goal to make an impact even in some small way on the general public's oppinion and knowledge of discus. For my part... This is why I try as much as I can to sell and get local people and stores into my bred discus, they all get my phone number and free access, so now I can personally share that knowledge and information with the people i sell to and directly insure a high success rate if the buyer is dedicated.

All in all, my point is good for you for actually saying something, now if you have any fishy friends, be sure to spread the word not only about this but more importantly good discus and their ease of care with a few basic principles followed.

[mmorris]

I'm sorry for your experience, Maia Dee. I know how it feels. Frankly, a rating of 31/40 on Aquabid is really poor, IMO (user name Petpeve). I recommend buyers do their best to solve the problems with the sellers before posting here. Once you post, you don't have much leverage. Did they respond to your letter? If they sent you pics of the fish for sale and then sent you others, or if you asked for high quality discus and got poor quality, then you have a case with Small Claims Court. Filing is easy and inexpensive, in my state anyway, and you can pursue your court costs. If you purchased them on Aquabid and they are unwilling to resolve the problem, then leave negative feedback. A problem I see is that if people do a search here for reviews of the Fish Den, the search key will turn up nothing because 'fish' is too common and 'den' is too short a word for search. If a solution is not possible, I would post in the feedback section with "Negative Review of The Fish Den" in the title. Good luck.

[MaiaDee]

I have not heard back from the seller. I really didn't expect to. I understand what you are saying about the 31/40, but the negative reviews were from one person, and I figured anyone can make a mistake. The rest of the reviews were positive from multiple buyers, but you're right and I should have bought from someone else. Lesson learned. I did not buy through Aquabid, I just found him there and purchased through his website. No, I did not see pics of the fish beforehand, another lesson learned.

There is just too much going on right now for me pursue small claims court. Perhaps I should, otherwise he's pretty much just getting away with it. I'm not sure that I'd have a case though, since I bought 6 fish and he sent me 6 fish. Good idea to post in the feedback section. I will do that. I really just felt the need to warn others off this guy. Good points about the search, although you may have just helped with that by posting his Aquabid name!

[Lenin]

So I'm in no way defending anyone, but what was the description of what you bought compared to what you got.

I hear this all the time, but in this case your expectations did not match with what you got, what created the expectations. Again I'm not defending the seller.

I looked at their site and the only thing as far as a refund was only a credit to your next purchase in case of a DOA.

[MaiaDee]

So I'm in no way defending anyone, but what was the description of what you bought compared to what you got.

I hear this all the time, but in this case your expectations did not match with what you got, what created the expectations. Again I'm not defending the seller.

I looked at their site and the only thing as far as a refund was only a credit to your next purchase in case of a DOA.

I expected healthy fish in sell-able condition. I expected to receive the strains I ordered (I did get that), at the size I specified (2-2.5", they are roughly that), that were not sick or stunted. I expect someone selling fish on the internet to sell me a reasonably acceptable fish. I did not expect show quality, just your average, healthy, not shaped like a football discus. That doesn't seem like terribly high expectations to me.

[Donno]

Take care of them well and see what they look like as adults. You may be surprised. Young fish look a lot different from what they do when they are adults.

[Lenin]

OK, and again I'm not saying is your fault.

All I got from his website and ad, is that you would be getting Discus, of a certain size, I would also assume healthy (stunted does not mean sick), again is the internet sight unseen, football discus are all over the place, everytime that I go to LFS I want to scream and their prices are even worse.

The point that I'm trying to make is that the customer must also do research on a seller, ask questions, like I know they're 2-2.5" but how old are they (if they don't know that is a flag), can you send me pics?, can you talk to a person before and after the sale.

so sell-able condition is very open, what is for one seller is not the same for another, and their business model is what makes the diferrence, we all know Discus are expensive depending on what you're looking for, so if the price is low usually that means the quality will also be low. When we're talking show quality that's in the >$500 range,and there was a time I believe the true high priced $5K were offerred here I don't know if anyone actually bought them, not all of them will be show quality a lot have some growing out, very few get to that point, that's why the bigger a discus is the more expensive it will be, most of the work has already been done.

[mmorris]

so sell-able condition is very open, what is for one seller is not the same for another, and their business model is what makes the diferrence, we all know Discus are expensive depending on what you're looking for, so if the price is low usually that means the quality will also be low. .
I have to disagree with you. I think we all have general basic expectations that we have a right to expect when buying discus sight unseen: round shape, little to no peppering, no beaks, not stunted, healthy...
The price may also be low because 1) the desire to sell is greater than another's desire to buy 2) home-grown fry up for sale tend to be young, but are often of very high quality.

[Lenin]

Agreed that everyone here would definetly expect this without question from any of the breeders and sellers here, but once you go outside it changes, is the reason why other sellers the somethingpishy site for example is still up and selling. I know because that was my first experience and this was before I knew better which I think is how it works for most people and then we find sites like this one.

[MaiaDee]

Agreed that everyone here would definetly expect this without question from any of the breeders and sellers here, but once you go outside it changes, is the reason why other sellers the somethingpishy site for example is still up and selling. I know because that was my first experience and this was before I knew better which I think is how it works for most people and then we find sites like this one.

Amen.

[Trier20]

Agreed that everyone here would definetly expect this without question from any of the breeders and sellers here, but once you go outside it changes, is the reason why other sellers the somethingpishy site for example is still up and selling. I know because that was my first experience and this was before I knew better which I think is how it works for most people and then we find sites like this one.

I too got sucked into the somethingphishy vortex. I still have two of the six I bought. One is stunted and the other I've given ALOT on TLC and has come around pretty good. I guess what I'm trying to say is ya they may look like crap fish right now but with the right care good things can happen. Just give em lots of love they are yours now!

[dprais1]

I think that this forum creates a huge difference in most people's opinion of discus. I would not guess that most of us that bought poor quality fish initially even knew we were buying poor quality. We probably thought they were great. then we came to SD and changed our minds. Most people just want some nice fish in a tank. that is where these other sellers come in to play- they satisfy that need.

[Lenin]

Then you go to NADA and your expectations are even higher

[DiscusDrew]

I have to disagree with you. I think we all have general basic expectations that we have a right to expect when buying discus sight unseen: round shape, little to no peppering, no beaks, not stunted, healthy...
The price may also be low because 1) the desire to sell is greater than another's desire to buy 2) home-grown fry up for sale tend to be young, but are often of very high quality.
Amen Martha, just because i'm selling fry or anyone else that gives two s##### about the quality they are raising, at 15 bucks a piece speaks very little about the quality if the fish. They tend to be excellent quality fish if the breeder is doing their job, but the fish are offered cheap maybe because they're at a slightly smaller size, but also because even though we bring quality we have to compete with the giants that sell these by the thousands. Some good, some bad.

[DiscusDrew]

I have to disagree with you. I think we all have general basic expectations that we have a right to expect when buying discus sight unseen: round shape, little to no peppering, no beaks, not stunted, healthy...
The price may also be low because 1) the desire to sell is greater than another's desire to buy 2) home-grown fry up for sale tend to be young, but are often of very high quality.
Amen Martha, just because i'm selling fry or anyone else that gives two s##### about the quality they are raising, at 15 bucks a piece speaks very little about the quality if the fish. They tend to be excellent quality fish if the breeder is doing their job, but the fish are offered cheap maybe because they're at a slightly smaller size, but also because even though we bring quality we have to compete with the giants that sell these by the thousands. Some good, some bad.