Withdrawn - First attempt at breeding Discus - Log

[shawnhu]

https://plus.google.com/photos/103484452772870856108/albums/5844941818789201601?authkey=CI7G27HumI_l5AE

https://plus.google.com/photos/103484452772870856108/albums/5844941818789201601?authkey=CI7G27HumI_l5AE

video to follow

[Kal-El]

https://plus.google.com/photos/103484452772870856108/albums/5844941818789201601?authkey=CI7G27HumI_l5AE

https://plus.google.com/photos/103484452772870856108/albums/5844941818789201601?authkey=CI7G27HumI_l5AE

video to follow

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-uHy_4RpFP_8/UR1nnx49_AI/AAAAAAAABXA/N9DJHgWeLqY/s815/IMGP2134.JPG

Looking great...

[shawnhu]

Thanks everyone for the good wishes, and yes, my wife and I are having our first.

I was very hesitant to join the competition at first, because I knew I eventually wouldn't have the time to care for them as I planned, let alone keep up with the updates and the rules of the competition. With superstorm Sandy and personal issues lately, I gave it a best effort in doing so by request, but I wouldn't sacrifice the health of the fish in return for posting "proof" for a few individuals.

I've come to terms that haters will be haters, no matter how much experience they may have in this hobby. It saddens me further that so-called veterans to this hobby remain cynical and closed minded. I sure hope I don't get that way in my later years. I'd sooner quit the hobby than let myself become filled with such distrust and bitterness towards other hobbyists.

I applaud all of those who have kept an open mind to this log. You're the future this hobby needs. You're the reason why new and old hobbyists alike remain in this hobby. I thank you.

[Oscarsx]

Mhmm agreed, good job.. You keep doing what your doing, I've come to conclusion that some folk on these forums are a bit crazy..

I have to say tho, one fish in there looks to have a pop eye type eye :)

- oz

[shawnhu]

Mhmm agreed, good job.. You keep doing what your doing, I've come to conclusion that some folk on these forums are a bit crazy..

I have to say tho, one fish in there looks to have a pop eye type eye :)

- oz

Thanks for the reply oz. These fish were never culled, it is what it is. Unlike what some believe, I don't have anything to hide.

[John_Nicholson]

Its hard to count in the picture but are you saying you raised roughly 20 discus to that size in a 3-5 gallon tank?

-john

[shawnhu]

John, everything is documented, unlike what you claim to be. I'll save you the trouble of reading the thread. Yes, over 20 Discus is currently being grown in that 5 gal tank.

I expect a followup comment, don't worry John, I have my flame suit on this time.

[nc0gnet0]

Shawn,

Thanks for posting the update. I must admit I figured they were dead. I would be curious to see these fish at a year of age. The early months is where you lay the foundation for good development. Shortcomings in this foundation become increasingly obvious as the fish matures, often resulting in decreased potential in things such as total size, shape and a less than ideal immune system.

Everyone will measure your experiment with a different tape measure to determine if it was indeed a success. You did manage to keep them alive under what many of us would consider far less than ideal conditions (myself included). For this I commend you. However, when comparing your fish to some of the other contest fish at the same age raised using more conventional methods. I myself can see a big advantage to sticking with the conventional ways.

On another note I see you took exception too a lot of the negative comments made in regards to your fish. I do not know if this comment was directed at me in part or not, but I would like to state for the record I do not recall any such comments being made by myself regarding your methods, but what I did take exception to was your blatant disregard for the contest rules themself.

Rick

[shawnhu]

Rick,

I appreciate your honesty. In fact, I do resent the distrust that you showed, but the blame cannot be with you alone. You are right, rules were not followed, and I have withdrawn because of those reasons.

Trust me when I say I take no offense when people call the fish I have less than ideal. My fish are not show fish, never claimed them to be. My methods are not the best, never claimed that either. But for some reason, some folks here seem to think they are. It's the attitudes and hostilities that is evident here that is troubling.

I hope I've made it a little clearer.

[shawnhu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-7hSv3Hv88&feature=youtu.be

as promised

[Chicago Discus]

What are you feeding them

[shawnhu]

Josie, Al's FDBW when I have time to soak them, and TetraBits when I'm on the run.

[yim11]

It's the attitudes and hostilities that is evident here that is troubling.



I agree, it is getting bad...




It saddens me further that so-called veterans to this hobby remain cynical and closed minded. I sure hope I don't get that way in my later years. I'd sooner quit the hobby than let myself become filled with such distrust and bitterness towards other hobbyists.



John, everything is documented, unlike what you claim to be.

[Chicago Discus]

Josie, Al's FDBW when I have time to soak them, and TetraBits when I'm on the run.


That's what I thought but I always feed the cubes so I couldn't tell LOL....Josie

[shawnhu]

Josie, I've seen the cubes in action, they are great!

[Kal-El]

Nice video... They may not be big like Josie's contestent fish, but they sure eat well. Great job raising them the non traditional way. Like you said, not everyone can do WC 100% daily. For what you end up doing they aren't bad looking Juvie.

[John_Nicholson]

" I have my flame suit on this time"......Why? I am not mad at you. This is a problem with the PC world that we live in. If someone disagrees then the other party has been taught that they have to be offended. In fact I posted a speech given by one of the brightest minds of our time...Dr. Carson who is currently the head of the pediatric neurosurgery at John Hopkins where he addresses the evil that is political correctness. If you get a chance check it out....but moving on....Why would I be upset? You have proven most of what the old timers have said. That what you are doing is a crappy way of raising discus. You have proven that. The biggest fish in that picture is at best 1/2 the size and 1/2 the weight it should be. My reason for posting was to prevent new discus keepers from reading this and thinking it was a good idea........I like to use examples so here is one....Now folks it is just an example. I personally hope that his new baby grows up to win a Nobel Peace prize in Physics and wins an Olympic Gold medal but what you did to those discus is like saying you and your wife are going to raise your child in a 2 foot by 4 foot room and at age 12 it weighs 23 pounds, is 29 inches tall, and trying to tell everyone it was a success because the child is alive. Once again it was just an example. I do not put animals on the same plane as humans in real life. Just trying to drive my point home.

-john

[pastry]

Shawn, sorry for being one of the ones who pushed you into this competition. I should've thought more about how bad you would be critiqued. After seeing that last video, please just keep pushing on and posting. There are still more people on here that actually encourage you than the other ones who are still afraid that your competition thread will infect us all with the wrong discus ideology. There are even more people who have SD accounts that will not post due to seeing stuff like this but still read on since this SD is a great hub for information... it's just not always an easy place to ask a question (and dear God don't anyone reply with a "You better have tough skin" crap). Hell, I actually found myself getting on someone here and felt disgusted with myself. I ended up PM'ing them, apologizing, and still have great discussions with him from time to time. So keep on keeping on, brother!

[John_Nicholson]

Pastry he has 20 fish in a 5 gallon tank....how long do you want him to continue with that approach? The fish are already 1/2 the size they should be. Do you expect them to rebound?

Also I am not trying to get on anyone. I do not personally know him and he is probably a great person. I just disagree with approach on raising these fish. It does not make him or me bad people. We just disagree.

-john

[shawnhu]

John, you may be respected around here for your Discus knowledge, but in my book you are a pretty horrible person. I would NEVER bring your wife your kids, or anyone else you loved into this conversation. This is about Discus, don't try to make it into anything else.

For you to use my unborn child as a platform for attack is downright low and dirty. The reason I've had to pull away from these fish is because of complications in my wife's pregnancy and her health, but you've made it apparent that you could careless about others. Because all you see, is that my methods differs from yours, and you seem to have something to prove by bashing on others.

There's quite a few things I want to say but I'll hold back, as I've stated earlier, I'll continue to update as long as I can for those that have given me support. I will not risk locking this thread for the likes of you, John.

[John_Nicholson]

Good lord Shawn it was an example to drive home a point. Judging from your reaction it apparently worked. Not sure how I am a horrible person because I disagree with you, but I would love to discuss it with you. I have no hard feelings here. Really I would.

-john

[pastry]

John, I don't think anyone's going to come on here and think it's a good way to keep discus. We do a pretty good job chasing new people off on this site with the way we critique one another. Whenever a hobbyist who knows how to do it the "right" way tries to do an experiment in here that may involve breaking some rules to learn something then the most annoying, disheartening, and demotivating thing to experience is someone on every single page of a thread remind everyone how it's not the right thing and how all the fish aren't going to be NADA quality if you do it that way. I, for one, have one tank and so I can't do these experiments. I really enjoy reading about these experiments. So, how can we figure out a way on SD to do these experiments without constant critiquing which distracts from the thread's intent?

[pastry]

Man, posts are going too quick. Wish there was a way to PM 3-ways so we could take this off-line.

[shawnhu]

John, I've also got an example for you.


Hi Shawn - I totally agree with your description of some of the members here being 'narrow minded' . . . Some members, I'm afraid, are also extremely rude are arrogant.

I decide to stop posting on this site because of this - I wonder how many other people have decided on a similar course of action? Sad!

Anonymous


Hey Shawn, I've been impressed with your attitude and responses to the "faithful" I can't tell you how many times I had a post typed in but then deleted it. Keep up the good work!

I speak not only for myself.

[Kal-El]

John, you may be respected around here for your Discus knowledge, but in my book you are a pretty horrible person. I would NEVER bring your wife your kids, or anyone else you loved into this conversation. This is about Discus, don't try to make it into anything else.

For you to use my unborn child as a platform for attack is downright low and dirty. The reason I've had to pull away from these fish is because of complications in my wife's pregnancy and her health, but you've made it apparent that you could careless about others. Because all you see, is that my methods differs from yours, and you seem to have something to prove by bashing on others.

There's quite a few things I want to say but I'll hold back, as I've stated earlier, I'll continue to update as long as I can for those that have given me support. I will not risk locking this thread for the likes of you, John.

Way to go Shawn for keeping your head high and not letting other push you around when they don't agree with your method/experiment. I'm sure you will be moving those guys to a bigger tank eventually so I do look forward to seeing how they look like as adults. I will keep you and your wife in my prayers. Praying for a Healthy pregnancy and that you'll be with your unborn child in no time. Best of luck...

[John_Nicholson]

Very good point Pastry and I am absolutely behind experiments. The trouble with the web is we lose all of the non-verbal communication that we would have face to face. This causes people to jump to the wrong conclusions a lot of the time. I think it often gets off to the wrong foot because most of these experiments have been done in the past and have failed. As old timers we try to relay that hard won knowledge to the new folks but we get told that we are stuck in our ways. Most of the time the person conducting the "experiment" disappears without ever completing the experiments. Most of the time it is because the fish died but for a new person searching the web it gives the appearance that it might have worked. I really am not near the grouchy old man that I appear......and I rarely get mad over these discussions.

-john

[Skip]

There are 2 ways to raise discus.
One benefits the fish to have best environment for growth and development
Time consuming and takes more effort

The other benefits owner with limited time, energy, resources, for fish
Less time and money put into fish but you still have fish alive in glass box

[John_Nicholson]

Folks I am a father of 3 and a grandfather of 2 I wish him and his child nothing but the best so ya'll might as well move on from that one.

-john

[pastry]

While some readers may think this is a thread gone bad I actually think this has been well overdue. Eventhough John still thinks everything is bigger in Texas and Shawn smells funny because he's from NYC, they're both good dudes but represent two sides to one coin. One wants the quality of discus and discus threads not potentially lead new owners in the wrong direction while another wants to experiment in order to share results (whether good or bad) for us discus owners who become bored with reading the same new owner/potential owner threads yet only have one or two tanks to play with. Soooo… we really need to figure out a way to post experiments on here without the need for safeguarding from the rookie owners. Constant safeguarding really does feel like a constant kick in the nuts to the OP’s while the people who are doing the “kicking” don't really have any intent on doing that.

Also suggest if there’s a way a mod could possibly think of a way for us to do those types of posts (or start a different thread on ideas) while trying to get Shawn’s thread back on the focus of what he’s doing. (just a suggestion!!! Happy Friday!!!! I think everyone needs happy hour to come sooner!!!!! Don’t tell my boss that I’m not working!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[brewmaster15]

Shawn,
I hope all is well with you and Amy and the baby.. Always..always...family first.

All... Since I set this contest up, I'd really like to re-instate why. There have been thousands of ways advocated for raising discus...some work well...some not so well. Problem is..its usually stated as whats worked for so and so and what hasn't but you never really see the details and the proof.... which is fine..if you want to wade thru hearsay and regurgitated Discus Lore and follow advice given.... Thats not what this is about.

Its about showing what works and what doesn't. The proof is in the results. It an experiment people... and the beauty is it helps answer the questions of what works and doesn't not with references to how long so and so has done this or that...but with concrete pics and videos....as such even when something happens that causes the fish to be neglected... it has value....it shows why we do what we...and shows what happens when we don't.

Will shawns fish win the contest...not likely...but every bit of data that is acquired is valuable.

Sometime down the road....someone may come on Simply with grand ideas of how some of us are doing things wrong or unnecessarily.... when that happens we could have the same old tired arguements...and probably will. But they will be alot shorter if we can use some of whats being learned in this contest.

Thats my views at least. I would like Shawn to keep going with updates if he wants, even if not in the contest. I'd also enjoy seeing these fish down the road if he ever moves them up into a bigger tank.

Its all about increasing the knowledge base everyone....at least thats what I envisioned when I started these contests... If you look thru the archives and read the other 2 contests, and this one..you will truly SEE what works and doesn't.

Hope that helps.. and I hope that we can keep the dialogue going....discussion is good.

-al

[Chad Hughes]

Alright....

Looks like Al beat me to the punch!

I think everyone has made their point on how they feel about the approach shawnhu is taking in raising these fish in this thread.

To be honest, this thread has migrated too far away from discus and more towards "my way is better". How about we just agree to disagree and leave it at that.

I'll leave it up to the forum owner to clean up the off track items if desired. Let's grow up a bit. Thanks!

[shawnhu]

Al, Chad, Pat, thanks for chiming in. Al, theres nothing I want more from this thread but to continue reporting and updates of these little guys. They may not amass to anything worthy in some peoples eyes, but if it helps but one person, it would have been worth it. I leave it up to the readers to decide what they take from this experiment.

[nc0gnet0]

I think if you were to do so the information could prove to be some of the most valuable of the entire contest. Maybe not for the reasons you had originally hoped, but valuable none-the-less. The better the documentation, the more value the content will have, even if it is just a few words and a photo, being able to view the progression in a more consistant/timely fashion would be a huge plus.

Rick

[shawnhu]

Rick, not sure what you are implying when you refer to what my hopes were, but if it's referring to winning the contest, that was not my goal.

I originally entered the contest to follow the guidelines layer forth as a means to measure, give folks an idea of a timeline. It was my intention to follow through until the end for myself, and other folks to see the end result of this non-traditional way. Life threw me a few curve balls and here we are today.

[Skip]

Life threw me a few curve balls and here we are today.

ain't that the truth!

it happens to all of us..

[Vieira]

That's awesome great job!

[John_Nicholson]

Vieira he did a great job of "he wanted to prove an alternative method can work and instead proved the traditional methods are best" Stole a quote from a friend of mine...LOL.

I will give him that keeping that many fish alive in such a small tank is amazing.

-john

[Cambik]

That's awesome great job!

Question....have you ever seen a large adult (7+ inch) fish in person that is of good quality? If you had then you wouldn't be saying he is doing a great job. I personally used to think my fish were great. Then I went to NADA and my opinion changed drastically.

[Vieira]

I bought some Discus from somebody who breed discus in ten gallon thank with minimum water changes a while ago I was thrown back buy it when I saw with my own eyes. He had a dozen adult Discus in a 46 gal tank also. I forget who he was but I do know he was part of this form. He was trying to sell all his Discus do too health reasons.

[John_Nicholson]

I can see the 12 in the 46 but a breeding pair in a 10 blows my mind. They would have to be small. I have had/seen pairs that would have simple been to large to spawn in such a small space.

-john

[pastry]

Stephen, you must've missed all of the fireworks on the previous page. You also might've not read from the beginning of this thread on through to now. Did Shawn ever mention that he was trying to raise high quality discus in low quality standards?

Now, what's awesome about this whole thing is that he's documented and shared all of this for all of us to learn. So please, before you post again, could you please read from the beginning and understand the intent of this thread?

[Vieira]

Question....have you ever seen a large adult (7+ inch) fish in person that is of good quality? If you had then you wouldn't be saying he is doing a great job. I personally used to think my fish were great. Then I went to NADA and my opinion changed drastically.

I know how much work it takes to get a 7 inch show discus it's a lot of work and care. But to simplify and just enjoy the hobby of fish keeping and breeding healthy fish he did great job. I don't think he is going to be entering his discus into NADA.

[Cambik]

Stephen, you must've missed all of the fireworks on the previous page. You also might've not read from the beginning of this thread on through to now. Did Shawn ever mention that he was trying to raise high quality discus in low quality standards?

Now, what's awesome about this whole thing is that he's documented and shared all of this for all of us to learn. So please, before you post again, could you please read from the beginning and understand the intent of this thread?

Now I had nothing to do with the Shawn debate I was responding to Vieira's post about those fish are great. Please look at the entire post before you drag me into that converstation. Thanks.

[pastry]

"you wouldn't be saying he is doing a great job"... wow, those words I'm sure wouldn't add fuel to a fire that was just stomped out. And did Vieira say those fish looked like NADA quality? Or did she mean that the experiment looked great?

[roclement]

Stephen, you must've missed all of the fireworks on the previous page. You also might've not read from the beginning of this thread on through to now. Did Shawn ever mention that he was trying to raise high quality discus in low quality standards?

Now, what's awesome about this whole thing is that he's documented and shared all of this for all of us to learn. So please, before you post again, could you please read from the beginning and understand the intent of this thread?

He entered the fish in a contest, does that not qualify as an intent to showcase high quality discus? If he wanted to simply share his methos, why enter them in a contest?
Honest question.

Rodrigo

[John_Nicholson]

Its all a matter of interpretation...that is what makes it so hard to have these discussions. When people post that he did a great job what does that mean? Is success defined by simply keeping the fish alive? Is success ending up with average quality fish? above average? below average? This is where things get so for off course. I don't think anyone meant to start a fire again. I think he was trying to point out that unless you have seen a really nice fish in person you really don't understand how big and nice discus can be.

-john

[pastry]

because these contests really don't award anything and actually help people keep logs so others can learn off of them. shoot, good point though Rodrigo, that's why I apologized to encouraging him to enter into the "contest" when he first started. that way it'd help motivate him to keep us posted. man, the poor guy looks at SD as a mental outlet, but then still catches flak constantly.

[pastry]

crap, john, there we go again with the fast moving posts... my bad

[John_Nicholson]

Once again it is open to interpretation....While there was some flak there were other comments that were taken incorrectly. Not throwing rocks again just saying that some of the stuff got blown out of proportion.

-john

[John_Nicholson]

Crap pastry now you just did it to me...LOL

-john

[Disgirl]

Al, Pat, Chad, and other mods, could we perhaps have a section here at SD for experiments in discus keeping? This way any of us who want to try something possibly new, untried, untested, could have a place to record their experiences, whether good or bad. For example, several years ago I had an experiment here about cycling a new discus tank with nothing but Miracle Gro fertilizer. It worked! But the thread is long gone now, buried in thousands of other posts, and nobody will see it again, most likely. If it were in an "experiment section" then it might be seen again and tried by other folks. Shawn's experiences might be an example of all this. Just an idea from me...
Barb

[John_Nicholson]

Good thought. It would help take care of one of my biggest concerns...that new people would read the thread and think it was the normal way of doing things.

-john

[Kal-El]

Al, Pat, Chad, and other mods, could we perhaps have a section here at SD for experiments in discus keeping? This way any of us who want to try something possibly new, untried, untested, could have a place to record their experiences, whether good or bad. For example, several years ago I had an experiment here about cycling a new discus tank with nothing but Miracle Gro fertilizer. It worked! But the thread is long gone now, buried in thousands of other posts, and nobody will see it again, most likely. If it were in an "experiment section" then it might be seen again and tried by other folks. Shawn's experiences might be an example of all this. Just an idea from me...
Barb
+1 on this idea... this way we won't have this issue...

[pastry]

yep, i'm approaching beer thirty in a few hours, john. definitely looking forward to it. i've somehow managed to get my panties in a wad today over this thread. ah well.

[roclement]

because these contests really don't award anything and actually help people keep logs so others can learn off of them. shoot, good point though Rodrigo, that's why I apologized to encouraging him to enter into the "contest" when he first started. that way it'd help motivate him to keep us posted. man, the poor guy looks at SD as a mental outlet, but then still catches flak constantly.

Elliot,

Thanks for the reply. In my mind, Simply if a forum dedicated to the king of the aquarium, and on how to best maintain them, breed them, a place for dicussion on what are the best methods that make the best possible environment for our beloved fish. Simply proving that one can keep the fish alive may go over well at a non-breed specifc forum, but this one is dedicated to this one species alone, and I believe we should be promoting the best methods so the fish can thrive, not a way to keep them alive.

Think of it in different terms, would you join a breed specific dog forum, that promotes buying from high quality breeders, etc, and expect to be taken seriously by your peerps, if you posted that you bought your dog from a puppy mill, bred it with a mutt, and was raising the pups on a crate? I don't think so.

Just my respectfull oppinion. I personaly have bo horse in this race, so it makes no difference to me how the op raises his discus but, he has to expect some scrutiny when he enters a contest in this forum, and choses to disrespect some highly respected members here in the process.

Rodrigo

[Vieira]

I was just happy to see the little guys eating well. They looked good and healthy from what I saw in the video.

[pastry]

Rodrigo,

Rgr and partially agree but then how do we branch out in expanding our learning in discus? Behind closed doors? Because if this forum is about the perfect discus methods and breeding (all subjective) then I guess I'm in the wrong forum. I'd like to listen and follow more experiments on breed-specific forums. I do not look at this site as just champion quality fish but also what the common keeper like me has. I like getting just little ideas here and there but I like reading about discus and discus only but they don't have to be champion discus.

And yeah, you're totally right on about the scrutiny but after awhile it builds up. Again, I feel part of the blame for pushing him into the contest. I just thought it help him continue his log.

[shawnhu]

Now I had nothing to do with the Shawn debate I was responding to Vieira's post about those fish are great. Please look at the entire post before you drag me into that converstation. Thanks.

No where did Vieira mentioned that the fish were great. Elliot is right, please understand my position and that of Vieira's post before jumping to conclusions.

[Larry Bugg]

I have resisted posting but I'm going to reply now. First, I have read the entire thread. I was post number 2 and have followed it ever since. Like a lot of others I applaud Shawn for this experiment. A lot of people talk about trying something different but very few actually follow through and of those most don't document it. When you try an experiment like this it serves no purpose at all unless the results are discussed and conclusions are made. The experiment is certainly not over and like others I would like to see it completed. That said I think the results to date can and should be discussed. The problem is it is hard to discuss something like this without people taking sides and feelings getting hurt. Done in person and not in writing would certainly be different. I agree that Shawn never stated that he set out to raise Show Quality discus. I think we can drop that part of the discussion. What that leaves us with is whether or not he is growing out average quality discus. In my book, if the discus do not measure up to average quality then the results say this method is not successful. Just to keep discus alive is not success. There have been quite a few post recently stating how successful Shawn is. Just my opinion but I don't see it that way at this time. I think the discus appear to be falling behind in their development. I believe all living things have a period of growth. Once that period is over its over. You won't see a lot of growth after that. For humans and I would expect for most creatures, once puberty starts growth really starts to slow down. You have a definitive time period for growth and once that is done any additional growth is minimual. Both my kids see a growth specialist so I have a little insight into this. On top of this there can be health issues when growth is not what it should be. Fortunatley both my kids will end up growing enough to not have these issues.

[shawnhu]

Rod,

I didn't realize this forum was for breeding Discus only. All this time I figured it was for ALL discus enthusiasts, silly me? But I can understand your point of view, you and Bob breed some very nice Discus.

[yim11]

He mentioned other qualities, why did you ignore those and try to focus on just breeding?

"how to best maintain them, breed them, a place for dicussion on what are the best methods that make the best possible environment for our beloved fish"




Rod,

I didn't realize this forum was for breeding Discus only. All this time I figured it was for ALL discus enthusiasts, silly me? But I can understand your point of view, you and Bob breed some very nice Discus.

[shawnhu]

He mentioned other qualities, why did you ignore those and try to focus on just breeding?

"how to best maintain them, breed them, a place for dicussion on what are the best methods that make the best possible environment for our beloved fish"

Might have had something to do with the word "breed" occurring 4 times in the same post, I don't know.

[Larry Bugg]

Might have had something to do with the word "breed" occurring 4 times in the same post, I don't know.

LOL, you need to re-read his comment. He used the word breed not in the context of breeding but rather Discus are one "breed" of fish. He was referring to the fact that this forum is dedicated to Discus and not all other "breeds" of fish.

[roclement]

Rod,

I didn't realize this forum was for breeding Discus only. All this time I figured it was for ALL discus enthusiasts, silly me? But I can understand your point of view, you and Bob breed some very nice Discus.


Hey Shawn,

Please re-read my post, I never focused on breeding. Like I said, I have no horse in this race, so please feel free to raise your discus as you see fit.
I have some respecet for the fish and the hobby that surrounds it, and the people involved in it, so I choose to act to the best of my ability, and not to what I can fit in my schedule. Let me add one more example if I may...

I always wanted a dog, and untill recently I never got one since I did not have the means (time, space, financial) to maintain one to the best of my ability, and knowing that I was providing it with the best possible life.

When you deal with living things, some basics have to be taken into account, like what is best for them to thrive, not simply survive. If your lifestyle (congratulations on the bby by the way!) does not allow you to provide theproper care for discus, I don't believe you should try to keep them. There are numeorous other types of fish out there that are perfect for your situation, and equally as prized by their enthusiasts, like bettas, and other less demanding fish. I am not trying to be funny, I am being honest. Skip, who is a member here, moved mainly into bettas since it fits his current lifestyle better, that's all.

Now I honestly fail to see how you can call yourself an enthusiast, and post here, while providing such poor conditions for your fish to thrive, notice I said thrive, not survive.

Thanks on the complimets, but to be clear, Bob and I currenlty don't breed fish, we import them for resale.

Stay well,

Rodrigo

[Chicago Discus]

I dont know I was under the impression that this contest was about breeding, wasn't that the point of the contest or at least partially and to see them grow out.....Josie

[pastry]

Rodrigo, I think I just threw up a little in my mouth after reading that...

[shawnhu]

He entered the fish in a contest, does that not qualify as an intent to showcase high quality discus? If he wanted to simply share his methos, why enter them in a contest?
Honest question.

Rodrigo

Rod, that was not my intent. I've stated my intent, probably over a dozen times over the course of this thread. It's starting to get a little repetitive. Why do folks run in a marathon, if they know they will come in last? Honest answer.

[pastry]

That all sort of sounded like someting out of Happy Gilmore... like a "Shooter McGavin"ish...

[roclement]

Rodrigo, I think I just threw up a little in my mouth after reading that...

I rest my case, there are people not worth my time...I tried...you all stay well and be happy.

Rodrigo

[shawnhu]

LOL, you need to re-read his comment. He used the word breed not in the context of breeding but rather Discus are one "breed" of fish. He was referring to the fact that this forum is dedicated to Discus and not all other "breeds" of fish.

My apologies to Rod if I took his post out of content.

[roclement]

Rod, that was not my intent. I've stated my intent, probably over a dozen times over the course of this thread. It's starting to get a little repetitive. Why do folks run in a marathon, if they know they will come in last? Honest answer.

You should have stuck to your guns, and not entered them, sorry.
To answer your question, people enter to challenge themselves, to better personal goals, nothing close to what you have achieved with your discus. You managed to enter the marathon, and failed to excell your expectations, choosing instead to accept the...I've done the best I could under my circumstances line...oh well...

Rodrigo

[shawnhu]

Hey Shawn,

Please re-read my post, I never focused on breeding. Like I said, I have no horse in this race, so please feel free to raise your discus as you see fit.
I have some respecet for the fish and the hobby that surrounds it, and the people involved in it, so I choose to act to the best of my ability, and not to what I can fit in my schedule. Let me add one more example if I may...

I always wanted a dog, and untill recently I never got one since I did not have the means (time, space, financial) to maintain one to the best of my ability, and knowing that I was providing it with the best possible life.

When you deal with living things, some basics have to be taken into account, like what is best for them to thrive, not simply survive. If your lifestyle (congratulations on the bby by the way!) does not allow you to provide theproper care for discus, I don't believe you should try to keep them. There are numeorous other types of fish out there that are perfect for your situation, and equally as prized by their enthusiasts, like bettas, and other less demanding fish. I am not trying to be funny, I am being honest. Skip, who is a member here, moved mainly into bettas since it fits his current lifestyle better, that's all.

Now I honestly fail to see how you can call yourself an enthusiast, and post here, while providing such poor conditions for your fish to thrive, notice I said thrive, not survive.

Thanks on the complimets, but to be clear, Bob and I currenlty don't breed fish, we import them for resale.

Stay well,

Rodrigo

Rod, it's obvious we differ in views of the term enthusiast, and I'm ok with that. This Discus tank is just one of my 7 tanks, not all being Discus. Stay well.

[shawnhu]

You should have stuck to your guns, and not entered them, sorry.
To answer your question, people enter to challenge themselves, to better personal goals, nothing close to what you have achieved with your discus. You managed to enter the marathon, and failed to excell your expectations, choosing instead to accept the...I've done the best I could under my circumstances line...oh well...

Rodrigo

Rod,

I view it entirely differently. As the title states, this is my first time breeding and raising my own Discus. Viewing it any other way than challenging myself regardless of the hurdles would be wrong. We all learn to walk at some point in our lives, I just chose to walk the unbeaten path.

[cjr8420]

Rod,

I view it entirely differently. As the title states, this is my first time breeding and raising my own Discus. Viewing it any other way than challenging myself regardless of the hurdles would be wrong. We all learn to walk at some point in our lives, I just chose to walk the unbeaten path.
ive read this whole thread and u keep saying this is something new being done that hasnt been done b4 do u really think in all the yrs of discus keeping ur the only one to raise discus in a dirty over crowded tank. it has happen been happening since discus breeding has been going on and still today from people other than ur self.u are not walking an unbeaten path u are walking a path that has been beaten to death.i do hope u continue to update cause just for documenting point no one documents failures at least to the end.and get off the show quality crap even the time tested proven ways dont =perfet show fish.but the standard quality some of the sponsers import here on a regular basis would be a good quality to shoot for.gl with ur fish and hopefully keep us updated

[shawnhu]

Thanks for your input cjr.

[Lt shinysides]

Wowsers
all you all need is a smiley face in you're paragraphs an there'd be no aggro:-)

[shawnhu]

Wowsers
all you all need is a smiley face in you're paragraphs an there'd be no aggro:-)

Thanks for the uplifting spirit shinysides. :)

[TNT77]

Ok I wasn't going to post until people started saying the fish look great. They don't. They are half the size they should be at this age and there are at least two with popeye. I'm all for experiments and trying new ideas but this is not a new idea. I do like the fact that it was documented and kept track of to show others the results of such care. But misleading people who read this thread that do not know much about discus and breeding by saying how good they look is very wrong. I'm not even talking about show or standard quality before others say I'm not looking for a show fish. I am talking about a healthy thriving fish. I have done this same experiment though not even close to this degree and I was not happy with the results. I was ashamed for what I had done and I felt sorry for the poor fish in the end. I ended up having to put all but one down because of health issues down the road.
When things like this are done to cats, dogs, or horses it is called animal abuse. Why when it is done to fish is it called a wonderful and great experiment? Any other animal that went through horrifying conditions would be looked at with pity for what was done to it and these are being applauded by some. Some get mad because people who have cared for these fish for a long time get upset by what they see and let it be known how they feel. But hey they are just fish right? It doesn't matter how they are treated. Or does it?

[shawnhu]

Tara, thanks for your feedback and honesty. Good, bad, or ugly, it'll hopefully be documented for it's entirety. Good luck with your business.

[Cambik]

Ok I wasn't going to post until people started saying the fish look great. They don't. They are half the size they should be at this age and there are at least two with popeye. I'm all for experiments and trying new ideas but this is not a new idea. I do like the fact that it was documented and kept track of to show others the results of such care. But misleading people who read this thread that do not know much about discus and breeding by saying how good they look is very wrong. I'm not even talking about show or standard quality before others say I'm not looking for a show fish. I am talking about a healthy thriving fish. I have done this same experiment though not even close to this degree and I was not happy with the results. I was ashamed for what I had done and I felt sorry for the poor fish in the end. I ended up having to put all but one down because of health issues down the road.
When things like this are done to cats, dogs, or horses it is called animal abuse. Why when it is done to fish is it called a wonderful and great experiment? Any other animal that went through horrifying conditions would be looked at with pity for what was done to it and these are being applauded by some. Some get mad because people who have cared for these fish for a long time get upset by what they see and let it be known how they feel. But hey they are just fish right? It doesn't matter how they are treated. Or does it?

+1....Well Said Tara

[Chicago Discus]

I have been thinking about this thread for a few days now. First I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination and nor is the advice I may give to new or old people always the rule or norm. But I always give advice to best of my ability and if I don't know or have experience with something I will state that or direct the person to someone who knows better. I can understand where people would get very upset with the ways and methods that you chose to raise your fry. Hell a while back I started a thread on wiping tanks down and got a lot of negative feedback and some people on the forum treated me like I was a moron for even starting the thread. Or the time when my Aunt and I posted our findings on humanly putting down fish ok don't get me started about about animal abuse we were told that throwing the fish on the floor or the garden was a much better and cheaper method after spending hundreds of dollars on fish. So with that said I know what it's like to be on the other end of this kind of abuse. I am also in this contest and many time have thought about pulling out mostly because of the other contestants and the ever changing rules that took place in the beginning. And the people with the biggest issues are no longer in the contest so go figure. So Sean learn from your mistakes that you made during this contest and even though you didn't do things in the traditional way you still did them and thats more than I can say about a lot of people giving you a bunch of $hit. It takes courage to document and update your progress and failures on an open forum. I am very glad you documented this it will show new and old people on this forum that water changes and larger tanks will give you much better results.............Josie

[Lt shinysides]

Very well put!!!!!

[shawnhu]

Wow Josie, you blow me away! I'm sorry my thread has weighed on you for several days, but I am ..... Can't put it in words, but I thank you. (I read that thread about you and your aunt btw). I too was very discouraged by the early rule changes, but that's not what did me in. I appreciate your very well thought out reply.

[Kal-El]

I have been thinking about this thread for a few days now. First I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination and nor is the advice I may give to new or old people always the rule or norm. But I always give advice to best of my ability and if I don't know or have experience with something I will state that or direct the person to someone who knows better. I can understand where people would get very upset with the ways and methods that you chose to raise your fry. Hell a while back I started a thread on wiping tanks down and got a lot of negative feedback and some people on the forum treated me like I was a moron for even starting the thread. Or the time when my Aunt and I posted our findings on humanly putting down fish ok don't get me started about about animal abuse we were told that throwing the fish on the floor or the garden was a much better and cheaper method after spending hundreds of dollars on fish. So with that said I know what it's like to be on the other end of this kind of abuse. I am also in this contest and many time have thought about pulling out mostly because of the other contestants and the ever changing rules that took place in the beginning. And the people with the biggest issues are no longer in the contest so go figure. So Sean learn from your mistakes that you made during this contest and even though you didn't do things in the traditional way you still did them and thats more than I can say about a lot of people giving you a bunch of $hit. It takes courage to document and update your progress and failures on an open forum. I am very glad you documented this it will show new and old people on this forum that water changes and larger tanks will give you much better results.............Josie

Well said Josie... :D

[Kal-El]

Because of what I see happen over and over again in this forum... I tent to restrict myself from posting any test results of mine in this forum. My quest to limit my WC will be kept offline and only share the good and bad when I'm able to find what works for me. The number of negative feedback just isn't worth it IMO...

[joeandmeagan]

This whole thread is I think one of the reasons I enjoy SD. A complete variety of opinions and ideas exchanged in a mostly civilized manner. Shawnu I applaud your trying but mainly your continued documentation which can be pointed to in future threads when new ones come along and say why don't you guys do it this way.

[shawnhu]

Thanks joeandmeagan. It's my hopes that good use can come from the time spent documenting.

[oldfar]

HEY Shawnhu blow this off ,if I remember wright you have a baby coming ,roll up with your wife and enjoy what is coming your way. Had my 4mo old grand child come over tonight, she keeps me happy pulling on my beard, yanking my glasses off with the biggest smile I have ever seen got to love that .Forget this s*** you have better things too do.Paul

[shawnhu]

Oldfar, thanks for the advice. An old buddy of mine is going through some rough times, so we're keeping him company and getting blasted. Thanks for sharing the visual image of your loving family, if I ever grow a beard, I'd love for my grandchild to pull it too.

[Fundulopanchax]

I have thoroughly enjoyed reading about your experiences. The breeding and building threads are always enjoyable to me. By following the efforts of folks willing to spend the time posting, I learn an enormous amount.

Keep them coming!

Ron

[shawnhu]

Thanks for your feedback Ron.

[brewmaster15]

Al, Pat, Chad, and other mods, could we perhaps have a section here at SD for experiments in discus keeping? This way any of us who want to try something possibly new, untried, untested, could have a place to record their experiences, whether good or bad. For example, several years ago I had an experiment here about cycling a new discus tank with nothing but Miracle Gro fertilizer. It worked! But the thread is long gone now, buried in thousands of other posts, and nobody will see it again, most likely. If it were in an "experiment section" then it might be seen again and tried by other folks. Shawn's experiences might be an example of all this. Just an idea from me...
Barb

Barb, I remember that experiment, it was a great experiment based off something I mentioned in a thread and several members like yourself tried out.

I have no problem with setting up such a section, but unfortunately it won't address this issue:( , You will still have debates as to the if such an experiment should have been done, was cruel, was ridiculous, was not the "right way" to do it. The issue is people usually look at something from their own experiences and have a hard time looking outside that realm. Its Human nature.

Heres some examples...
experiment... I posted my experiments of having my discus raise my angelfish fry. Documented everything shared it all here. I got many emails and complaints that accused me of cruelty to the fry as the discus were sure to eat them...and even if they didn't, the fry would somehow be messed up and not breed normally. I kid you not. You know what..I could care less what anyone said..it was a brilliant experiment...and I learned volumes from it as did anyone that read it.

Experiment I documented fine trimming a heckel with deformed fins... How could I do that to a fish...I cut its tail? Its fins...poor fish. I had several heated arguements over it... But again it was an excellent experiment. I was able to show people how to do a technique that is used often by exporters and to document fin regeneration.

Experiment I Documented the Keeping discus in a tank with no biofilter, and the relationship between ammonia and PH and toxicity.

Experiment I documented early fry development with a microscope, and over a timeline..The fry was sacrificed....but again we learned alot.

Experiment I documented my technique of artificially raising fry. I butted heads with many that said it was unnatural, would impair parental instincts (BSHT), that the fry would lag in growth...be inferior to parent raised. Again much was learned.


Experiment I bred a really peppered PB to a non PB to test that Peppered Fry dogma.. Why? To prove or disprove it... and document it...(proven...peppered pigeons X Non pigeons = peppered FRY.

Experiment I started a forum for discus nuts along my ideas...many thought it would fail..best experiment to date yet..the jury is still out on whether it was viable:)...but it was a risk.

My point isnt to blow my own horn here ...Its to show you all the value in doing an experiment. Experiments are how we test what is generally accepted and push the limits of what we know.. There are always people that will not agree with them. But there is no forward movement of anything unless we try things different,look at them different, test what is accepted, question it, prove or disprove it. Even an experiment that doesn't work as we want it to can be of great value.

I encourage anyone with a different way of looking at something to try it....document it, share it and discuss it...Heck if it wasnt for someone that thought the world was round when everyone else thought it was flat...where would we be?

no more Digressions by me just wanted to address the experiment issue..... Lets go back to when I started this contest....I asked for people to hold their criticisms on techniques until the contest was done..Why? Because if you influence the way a contestant is doing things , it makes it harder to document what works and what doesn't. Its basic science. This thread has really gone off course in that regards.. The discussions on what worked best will be easy at the contest end when we have the final images and results.

Okay next issue to address..I Have seen this reference to "rules Changing all the Time" Straight up. I was very clear when we started this contest that something like this had never been done and that due to the nature of the contest we would run into issues that needed to be addressed and we would modify things as required. I personally think we have been fair in this. Its always easy to criticise something..try organizing something like this. Truth is Discus People aren't always easy to work with !:)

I think people need to take a step back... and just try to enjoy this challenge for what its meant to be, I also give credit to every participant in this challenge...even those that ran into issues. Its not easy being put under a microscope.

Thanks,
al

[Oscarsx]

Shawn, a bit of of a subject change.. But while looking at your YouTube channel I noticed a fat hog you have in your avatar picture.

Moar pictures please.

Oh and regarding this thread

Inb4 these fish win the NADA show...lol

- oz

[shawnhu]

Al, just when I thought it's not possible for you to make any more sense than you already have, you amaze me. Time and time again, you make great examples and see things in a very objective view. It was premature of me to comment on the competition's changing rules, and once again, you are right. Something of this caliber should have fluid rules that change with the benefit of the end result in mind, to improve the overall understand of Discus. You are an inspiration Al.

Oz, you're a riot. When you said hog, I thought to myself, I have not gone on a hog hunt yet.... Then it hit me. The large mouth!

[SMB2]

First off good luck with the new little one. Babies are a lot like juvie Discus. They need frequent feedings, lots of water (and poop) changes. You will watch it grow, and be amazed at the different types of poops. They will get sick and keep you up at night. You will spend equal amounts of money on fish tanks and schooling for the kid. And if you are lucky they will grow up to be nice adults:D

I have enjoyed all the dust thrown up from this thread. The biggest problem is that it was posted in the CHALLENGE. The purpose of the Challenge is to raise the fish to be the best specimens possible as that is the highest goal for advanced Discus hobbiests and breeders. In and of itself, that is a challenging undertaking.
I may be wrong, but I don't think your goal was the same and perhaps the undertaking was therefore seen as a slight to the task of raising "trophy" fish. If you seriously want to add science to the hobby with regards to your minimalist approach then you would have to do a side by side comparison. That is, split the fry number in half and simultaneously raise one group with your present method and the control in the more conventional manner. Then see where the fish are at 3/6/12 months. Again this is perhaps better posted in an experimental section so as not to ruffle scales.

[brewmaster15]

As requested... Theres a new section on the forum for experiments... We'll try it out and see how it works.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumdisplay.php?279-The-Laboratory

-al

[Jeff O]

Al, Pat, Chad, and other mods, could we perhaps have a section here at SD for experiments in discus keeping? This way any of us who want to try something possibly new, untried, untested, could have a place to record their experiences, whether good or bad. For example, several years ago I had an experiment here about cycling a new discus tank with nothing but Miracle Gro fertilizer. It worked! But the thread is long gone now, buried in thousands of other posts, and nobody will see it again, most likely. If it were in an "experiment section" then it might be seen again and tried by other folks. Shawn's experiences might be an example of all this. Just an idea from me...
Barb

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?71625-Fishless-cycle-or-maintenance-idea

This one Barb?

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
I think Barbs is here..
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?72813-Final-result-of-Al-s-fishless-cycling-idea

But thanks for finding mine!
-al

ps Barb...can I move yours to the Lab?:)

[Disgirl]

Definitely Al! If you hadn't asked, I would have suggested it. Now I will be able to go back and reread what I wrote, LOL! I have forgotten the amounts and time. Thanks. I think this new section will be a hit.
Barb

[shawnhu]

First off good luck with the new little one. Babies are a lot like juvie Discus. They need frequent feedings, lots of water (and poop) changes. You will watch it grow, and be amazed at the different types of poops. They will get sick and keep you up at night. You will spend equal amounts of money on fish tanks and schooling for the kid. And if you are lucky they will grow up to be nice adults:D

I have enjoyed all the dust thrown up from this thread. The biggest problem is that it was posted in the CHALLENGE. The purpose of the Challenge is to raise the fish to be the best specimens possible as that is the highest goal for advanced Discus hobbiests and breeders. In and of itself, that is a challenging undertaking.
I may be wrong, but I don't think your goal was the same and perhaps the undertaking was therefore seen as a slight to the task of raising "trophy" fish. If you seriously want to add science to the hobby with regards to your minimalist approach then you would have to do a side by side comparison. That is, split the fry number in half and simultaneously raise one group with your present method and the control in the more conventional manner. Then see where the fish are at 3/6/12 months. Again this is perhaps better posted in an experimental section so as not to ruffle scales.

You may be right, but scales were ruffled from the start of this thread, before they were entered.

[PP_GBR]

Shawnhu:

Best of luck with your baby. I always enjoy reading your thread. You are not the only one who's breaking the rules.

[shawnhu]

Thanks PP_GBR for your kind wishes.

[Altum Nut]

I know your batch has been withdrawn but how are those youngsters making out to date?
Have you moved them to a bigger tank yet.
Would love to see some updated pics.

[shawnhu]

I know your batch has been withdrawn but how are those youngsters making out to date?
Have you moved them to a bigger tank yet.
Would love to see some updated pics.

Hi Altum,

So far, they are doing well. I've started to start a new experiment with the batch. I'll update soon.

[PP_GBR]

Shawn

How is the wife doing with her baby?

[shawnhu]

Baby is doing good, gained back her weight and then some. Wife needs to follow up with some tests to make sure everything is on the uppity up.

Not much spare time to update these guys, but I still have them and they are eating well.

Thanks for asking!

[PP_GBR]

Keep me posted here.