Withdrawn - First attempt at breeding Discus - Log

[shawnhu]

This will be my first try at breeding Discus, so this will be my log.

So far, this is the timeline that I've had with these guys:

Eggs laid - 7/30 or 7/31
Wigglers - 8/2
Free-swimming - 8/5
Attached - 8/5

The following is the water parameters tested on 8/4

Ammonia - 4 ppm
Nitrate - 10 ppm
pH - ~6
TDS - 80
Temp - 27 C

They are currently in a 10G with plants.

I've noticed there to be around 70 wigglers, and have seen a few drop since they went free-swimming. I'd be interested to see how many survive and become dime-sized.

Once I figure out how to post pics, I'll get them up to share for those interested.

[Larry Bugg]

I'm confused. You say they attached on 8/5 and it is now 8/6 and you say they are in 10 Gallon with plants? You pulled them from the parents? You have the fry and parents in a 10 gallon.

[shawnhu]

Nope, everything is right. This is an unconventional way of raising discus. Hope I can share some of my experiences with everyone.

[dpete9]

well interestingly they were comfortable enough in a 10 gallon to spawn.

[John_Nicholson]

How big is the pair? Most nice breeding quality pairs would have trouble living in a 10 gallon tank. How about some pictures.

-john

[Altum Nut]

Having an Ammonia reading at 4 ppm???????
I hope it's .4

...Ralph

[shawnhu]

They're about 5-6 inches TL.

The ammonia is indeed 4 ppm, not .4. This isn't the first time I've raised Discus to adults in ammonia levels that would make others cringe.

I'll explain why this works once I get some pictures up.

[shawnhu]

Tank has been running for over a yer, I assure you it's established.

[dpete9]

Well I am interested in hearing your methods and seeing what the fish in question look like. In a sense it's impressive that they would consider spawning in a 10 gallon or with 4ppm ammonia. I'm kind of baffled

[Poco]

I am in the same boat as you Pete.

[nc0gnet0]

Hopefully you will be succesfull in getting them to dime size and then decide to enter them in the contest, in which case I look forward to competing against you.

Good luck

Rick

[shawnhu]

Hopefully you will be succesfull in getting them to dime size and then decide to enter them in the contest, in which case I look forward to competing against you.

Good luck

Rick

Thanks Rick.

[shawnhu]

I'm somewhat confused as well.
Just today you posted this thread....Re: First attempt at breeding Discus - Log
How can you justify raising Discus fry to dime size and sold off to other hobbiest?????
I guess I will have to wait for the next episode.
Forgive me if I missed something.

...Ralph

Hi Ralph, please allow me to clarify. I raised dime sized fry to adults, then donated them away. I received no funds for them. This will be my first attempt at breeding Discus from egg.

Hth,

[shawnhu]

Here's a few pics I needed to convert to get on here. These were taken 8/3.

[Chicago Discus]

im confused are you hanging the Discus upside down whats going on here. I kinda had a long night im missing something please explain....Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Josie, pictures are sideways :p

[Chicago Discus]

Josie, pictures are sideways :p

LOL....Thats funny I wasn't sure what was going on...Josie

[shawnhu]

There's a strong side current in parts of my setup. :)

[Second Hand Pat]

There's a strong side current in parts of my setup. :)

As in the water?

[shawnhu]

As in the water?

The current goes from bottom to top, forcing the fish to swim and spawn sideways :D

[Second Hand Pat]

:p

[John_Nicholson]

Ya'll need to split out the hook instead of letting him reel you in.....

-john

[shawnhu]

The below is a good read.

http://www.thewaterplanetcompany.com/docs/WPC_Nitrification%20&%20Denitrification%20.pdf

Specifically,
Ammonia (NH3 or NH4). When the pH of the wastewater is acidic or neutral, the majority of the
nitrogen is ammonium (NH4
+). When the pH increases over 8.0, the nitrogen is mostly ammonia
(NH3).

Here's another read,
http://www.aquaworldaquarium.com/Articles/TonyGriffitts/Ammonia.htm

Specifically,
At a pH of 6.0, and 10 ppm of TAN, the ammonia is only .007 ppm

Hope this helps.

[shawnhu]

Hey Orange Crush,

Not sure which thread you are referring to, but I'm sure it's old, and I'm sure it's probably not from this tank. My PH 7 tanks are normally the ones with much more frequent water changes, ie. my 46 gallon where I have my other Discus. Even at a pH of 7, the toxic level of ammonia is still way under 1 ppm.

[shawnhu]

Okay then, I wish you the best of luck raising fry with 4ppm ammonia.

Hi Orange, hope you didn't take it the wrong way, but this is just a log and I'm recording my findings as I go.

Take care.

[Orange Crush]

Hi Orange, hope you didn't take it the wrong way, but this is just a log and I'm recording my findings as I go.

Take care.
Not at all. I was just hoping for more of an explanation about why you were wanting to raise fry with so much total ammonia. Since you are though I recommend Seachem's free ammonia test because api's test raises pH to test for total. Since ammonia is so toxic I prefer to go by total because if there is ammonia in my tank then there is something wrong and I want to know about it. Anyways good luck.

[Big-Ken]

So your substituting proper biological filtration with low pH??

Is the parent fish pictured one you raised with this method??

[shawnhu]

So your substituting proper biological filtration with low pH??

Is the parent fish pictured one you raised with this method??

Hi Ken,

No, the parents were not raised by me, but rather they were about 4-5 inches when I got them Dec of 2010. To be perfectly honest, this pair has been in the 10G for just about a year now. I don't substitute biological filtration with low ph, I generally substitute biological filtration with plants though.

I've been noticing with this pair that they begin to spawn about 4 days after a water change. This time I let them do their thing and when I finally saw wigglers, I took the water parameters and decided to keep a log. These are the results.

Was there something you wanted to comment about the quality of the parents?

[shawnhu]

Not at all. I was just hoping for more of an explanation about why you were wanting to raise fry with so much total ammonia. Since you are though I recommend Seachem's free ammonia test because api's test raises pH to test for total. Since ammonia is so toxic I prefer to go by total because if there is ammonia in my tank then there is something wrong and I want to know about it. Anyways good luck.

Oh, you misunderstood me Orange. I'm not looking to raise them in any ammonia, just happens that they were born into those parameters. I'm looking to remove any trace of ammonia nitrite and nitrates for these little guys.

Thanks for your concern.

[shawnhu]

Just got done putting together a BBS hatchery for my first batch. I'll have to get a few more bottles and get a couple more going. This will have to do for now.

I made a lid using the cut out to prevent salty splashes.

[Big-Ken]

To be technical in the tank with pH of <6 you have no biological filtration cause aerobic bacteria can not live at a pH below 6.2 and you would need a massive amount of plants to scrub the water

And yes now that you mention it I was curious if it was raised using this method cause it does seem from the angle of the pic to be of poor quality

I'm not hating on your method, its just that without some sort evidence to back up the method I can't consider it any more than a hypothesis. Now if you had pics or video of quality adults raised in your method it would go a long way to proving the concept

[Jdizon20]

Congrats on your first attempt at breeding. By the looks of it, you've been at this hobby for quite some time. You must be enjoying the hobby. I'm very curious and interested at your unconventional methods of raising discus. thanks for posting. Wish you luck and success.

[shawnhu]

Congrats on your first attempt at breeding. By the looks of it, you've been at this hobby for quite some time. You must be enjoying the hobby. I'm very curious and interested at your unconventional methods of raising discus. thanks for posting. Wish you luck and success.

Hi jdizon20,

Thanks for the warn wishes and your interest. I'm not trying to encourage ammonia in the tank, but in posting my log and giving back to the forum, these are my findings thus far, and I can honestly say that most people are afraid of a little ammonia or nitrite or nitrate in their discus tanks. Heck, some are even afraid of a little algae and poop, both naturally occurring in the wild.

[Tobrienne]

Hey Shawn.. In the beginning my tank wasn't cycled and I had large amounts is ammonia in my tank and my tap water spits out water with 1ppm ammonia.

For a while I didn't know better and when I did I panicked.

Fact if the matter is they survived and are happy now and flourishing. Discus are tough :)

[shawnhu]

Hey Shawn.. In the beginning my tank wasn't cycled and I had large amounts is ammonia in my tank and my tap water spits out water with 1ppm ammonia.

For a while I didn't know better and when I did I panicked.

Fact if the matter is they survived and are happy now and flourishing. Discus are tough :)

Tobrienne, as long as your waters ph isn't above 7, you're relatively safe. I'm blessed with NYC water, so no ammonia, chloramines, or high nitrates in our water. The water comes out of the tap at a low 60 TDS or so. It really is prime water for Discus. Thanks for commenting!

[Skip]

They're about 5-6 inches TL.

The ammonia is indeed 4 ppm, not .4. This isn't the first time I've raised Discus to adults in ammonia levels that would make others cringe.

I'll explain why this works once I get some pictures up.

Pics!

[shawnhu]

Here's a quick pic taken just minutes ago. Water level has gone from 5 gallon to about 7 now.

[Chicago Discus]

Here's a quick pic taken just minutes ago. Water level has gone from 5 gallon to about 7 now.

Ok I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination and I understand that you are breeding in a very unconventional way but my first question is why? Why would you risk disease and harm to yor fry by breeding in such an unsanitary tank. The only thing I can come up with is that your attempting to breed a stronger strain of Discus by breeding in unsanitary conditions. I'm just curious about what your trying to accomplish..............Josie

[Skip]

Ok I'm not an expert by any stretch of the imagination and I understand that you are breeding in a very unconventional way but my first question is why? Why would you risk disease and harm to yor fry by breeding in such an unsanitary tank. The only thing I can come up with is that your attempting to breed a stronger strain of Discus by breeding in unsanitary conditions. I'm just curious about what your trying to accomplish..............Josie

or just could feel.. the "norm".. is really just overkill.. and not needed and wants to prove a point.. could be either way

[shawnhu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSkc2CWT2G8

Just made a very short video of the fry swimming around, exploring I guess.

Josie, to answer your question, I'm not trying to accomplish any super strains here, just enjoying the hobby and keeping a log of it as I go along.

I suppose the tank could use a cleaning :)

[pastry]

shawn, sorry it took me a bit to jump over from my thread and read yours. thanks for starting this thread! love the portion of "some are afraid of a little poop and ammonia" ;) i go in and out of reading SD over time but i get the impression that people are afraid of the overall quality of discus decreasing due to raising fish in bad quality parameters, bad breeding stock, etc. yet the truth is that it's like that right now... i see them quite often! even fish that were originally high quality but became low quality due to LFS not taking good care of them. so when i see someone else just experimenting in their own realm with no intentions to sell "experimental" fish then they seem to be timid to post on here. now, maybe i can talk with SD administrators and see if there's a button we could click that would pop up a "disclaimer" at the beginning of our posts that read: "The following thread creator has no intention of distributing his or her fish. This is only a test. The thread creator is fully aware of what are acceptable parameters (even though they may not abide by them at all times) " :P

not knocking anyone on here since many have helped me before and offered advice and/or compliments, but "the world's not flat". the more columbus-types we got out there then the more tricks of the trade will be figured out (with probably 100x more blunders... comes with the territory though).

[shawnhu]

I'm in the same shoes as you pastry, lots of folks have helped me here on Simply, and I've met a lot of them in person, they really are great people. However, I don't understand this notion that breeding or the simple fact of caring for Discus must be followed a certain way. It almost seems cult-ish around here as of late. What ever happened to the guys that would experiment, explore, and expand on the hobby? What ever happened to the folks that did this for the hobby, and not always looking to raise NADA quality fish? Do they exist anymore?

Make no mistake, I don't make a living from raising my Discus, or will I get a check in the mail for having pretty Discus. This is a hobby for me, one that I enjoy more than others from time to time. I appreciate those that have commented with no ill intentions, but for those that look down upon others for doing things the unconventional way, need to get off your high horses and reflect back on how we all got here. Here in the US, we still celebrate Columbus day, you know - the explorer.

[Jdizon20]

Sadly I agree with Pastry and Shawnu. Its sad because i think it turns off new hobbyist getting into discus. But I guess in the end, the forum is still a great source of information and I believe they all mean well and care for the hobby. We don't all have to agree. Best way to learn is to experience yourself, so personally i may seek advice, listen to all advice but in the end make my own decision. That to me is part of enjoying the hobby.

[shawnhu]

Hi OC,

As Jdizon20 has stated, the fact that most of the threads of breeding and caring for Discus is 100% bare bottom, almost sterile enviornments with 100% water changes, twice a day really does turn off a lot of new hobbyists. IMO, a good hobbyist will not only enjoy their hobby, but also make it affordable and introduce others to their hobby to have it continue. I find keeping and raising Discus no different. How many threads do you see Discus being raised in smaller than "ideal" tanks? You yourself saw the reaction and confusion to the 4 ppm of ammonia that I posted, and the 10G tank size perhaps even being a typo. This is the mind-set that is instilled on many members here, and perhaps everywhere else. Chad Hughes was forced to raise his contest fish under unconventional methods due to the expense of his water bills. Did he give up? No. He did a fantasitc job at raising his Discus. I don't see this any different.

P.S. Nitrite, while deadly in normal conditions, the addition of salt can prevent any ill effects from Nitrite poisoning.
P.P.S. There are no Nitrite in any of my tanks, as this tank and all of my tanks are established tanks with Nitrate being the end result of the Nitrification Cycle. The sign that there is ammonia does not alone indicate an un-cycled tank.

[Second Hand Pat]

I am curious now. What is the source of the ammonia then?

[shawnhu]

Hi Pat,

The source of the ammonia is obviously from biomass deteriorating and from the fish excrements. Perhaps your question is, why was the ammonia at 4 ppm instead of the normal 0 ppm in a cycled tank? The answer to that question lies with the pH. As Big-Ken has pointed out, the nitrification cycle is haulted once the pH level drops below 6.2. This is not to mean that the bacteria responsible for the cycle are dead.

HTH,

[jimg]

I would think the ammonia is from the filter being too small as well as small amount of surface areas in the tank and filter. not enough area to colonize enough bacteria to absorb what the food and fish are putting out. that's why you have ammonia and nitrate at the same time.

[strawberryblonde]

Here's an excerpt from a biology paper on nitrifying bacteria.

"The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.

The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5

Nitrobacter will grow more slowly at the high pH levels typical of marine aquaria and preferred by African Rift Lake Cichlids. Initial high nitrite concentrations may exist. At pH levels below 7.0, Nitrosomonas will grow more slowly and increases in ammonia may become evident. Nitrosomonas growth is inhibited at a pH of 6.5. All nitrification is inhibited if the pH drops below 6.0. Care must be taken to monitor ammonia if the pH begins to drop close to 6.5. At this pH almost all of the ammonia present in the water will be in the mildly toxic, ionized NH3+ state."

Note that the word used is inhibited at a pH lower than 6.0. Though it could be interpreted as meaning that bacterial action comes to a full stop below 6.0, I think it's more likely that it means that growth and the action of the bacteria in oxidizing ammonia/nitrite is retarded.

I'm basing that on the fact that I've used bio-media for BB in tanks where my pH was naturally just below 6.0 (5.8 - 6.0, never above that) and with plenty of aeration as well as twice weekly water changes, I never had any ammonia in my water. The main tank back then was a community tank with no plants and a wide variety of fish. Oh wait, I should back up and say that I DID actually experience ammonia spikes on a few occasions, but they were directly attributable to either a) Long vacations and too much food being fed by my fish sitter and b) hospitalization for 3 weeks so my tanks didn't get their normal water changes...got home to filthy tanks and ammonia spikes. Had to clean filters (resulted in more bacteria die off doggone it) and do water changes every other day for a month in order to get ammonia and nitrites back to zero.

So I guess what I'm saying is that if it was me, I'd be concerned that I was constantly registering ammonia at 4ppm in my tanks with a pH of 6.0. Even though the ammonia is less toxic, it's still harmful over long periods of time in high amounts.

[jimg]

I agree it may slow, but it is still there working. my altum and heckle tank I have the ph now at 4.88 and with 2 - 30-40% weekly wc's no ammonia and have average of 10 on nitrate. so the nitrification process still works. I have taken filter material out of that tank and cycled ph 7.0 water with no setbacks.
I believe problems with nitrification start when tanks and filters are constantly and needlessly cleaned too much.

[Jdizon20]

Well I just started keeping discus myself and i know that a year from now if I followed everyones advice here and went bare bottom, I would be preaching to everyone that BB method works, no doubt based on that experience. But because I would have never tried it any other way, I wouldnt discourage other people to try a different way. I know that lots of hobbyist that are really into breeding/showing discus have done it BB and we all know it works. I know that If follow their method, the greater probability i will achieve what they achieved. Of course that assumes that everyone wants to achieve the same thing. I read that in the UK people raise their discus in planted tanks, Stendker website has different standards for stocking, water changes etc. We know that Chad Hughes was able to successfully raise discus in a planted tank. So in the end, it sounds like there are many ways to enjoy the hobby. While one method might be superior for showing/breeding/improving the quality of discus, I refuse to believe any other methods are doomed to "failure". If my discus grow up to be less than perfect, I would be perfectly OK with it as long as I enjoyed and learned from the experience. So I say: live and let live...knowledge and wisdom are always welcome and appreciated but so should experimentation and discovery.

[shawnhu]

Many good posts have been made. I appreciate all of them.

The current ammonia level is between .25 and .5 at a ph of 6 to 6.2.

Current water level is at 7 gallons, and a daily 1/4 gallon water change.

Feedings consist of terabits for mom and frozen BBS for the babies. Today, I'm confident that they are eating the BBS.

[pastry]

Orange Crush... nice!!! Looks like lately more and more want to figure out new ways of improving the growth of discus in planted tanks. More importantly though, it looks like more on here are letting people take a try, whether they approve of it or not, without jumping on them. That just helps open up communication more. On another thread, someone else suggested looking further into algae scrubbers. Just started looking at that today and looks like a great idea (I think it was Pickled-Herring... great name).

[Orange Crush]

....it looks like more on here are letting people take a try, whether they approve of it or not....
"letting"? Oh wait I forgot, we used to have the SD police come to everyone's home and make sure that they were following orders. lol

[pastry]

you know what i mean, smart a...

[Orange Crush]

you know what i mean, smart a...
:p

[Orange Crush]

In all seriousness though there is a reason why so many people who have been in the hobby for a long time speak up when someone tries to raise/care for discus differently then recommended. As an example, let's say someone tries to raise fry in water with 4 ppm ammonia (not picking on you shawnhu, just using this thread as an example) and they start out saying how it can work and that it has so far. Great! but what happens if they do not follow up with the fact that they failed? New people join the forum, see this thread and think "oh, it's no big deal that I have ammonia in my water", next thing you know they are posting in the disease section and/or their fish die. They just spent a lot of money buying these fish and they thought they were following accurate info. Now they think discus are impossible to keep or that SD is a crappy forum. Not to mention they are out a bunch of money.
Most of the time people here are unwilling to admit they failed when they do something that people here spoke out against instead, they just disapear from this forum or give no updates. Now bad info is out there. :angry:

[Jdizon20]

I see your point OC and I understand the method to the madness. Nevertheless, I think that approach caters to people who would actually act on limited information (not a smart move). Normal people doing research and doing their homework are left reading between the lines and feel turned off with the constant lectures. I would think the better approach, would be to report those types of threads to the Forum administrators to be considered for deletion/seek follow up or updates. This way, the forum caters up instead of down, misinformation is deleted and conversations are elevated. Again this is just my opinion, my perceptions. For the record, it really doesnt bother me that much..im just voicing out my impressions since I saw similar sentiment on this thread. The forum is serving me well so far, its free and I get really good advice and tons of information. I was able to connect with great discus sponsors with great quality discus!
Sorry Shawn for hijacking your Breeding log with this off topic sharing of opinions.

[nc0gnet0]

"The optimum pH range for Nitrosomonas is between 7.8-8.0.

The optimum pH range for Nitrobacter is between 7.3-7.5

I have read somewhere that these two bacteria may/are not the only two capable of converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate.

[strawberryblonde]

Very true Rick, but they are the two that populate most tanks and multiply the fastest from what I've read.

I hope my point was clear when I quoted that paragraph. I was trying to point out that though the bacterial action and multiplication is decreased, or retarded, as pH dips below 6.0, it is in fact still present, still providing benefit, etc. It's just slowed tremendously and therefore, people with pH below 6.0 need to keep a sharp eye on ammonia in the the tank (and nitrites). The ammonia that they'll have in the tank is less toxic, but still an issue and needs to be dealt with promptly for the sake of the fish.

I found that twice weekly water changes and watching how much I fed worked to control ammonia in my low pH tanks. Then again, I was raising community fish and not discus! I'm pretty sure discus are gonna require more food and more water changes. =)

[strawberryblonde]

Very true Rick, but they are the two that populate most tanks and multiply the fastest from what I've read.

I hope my point was clear when I quoted that paragraph. I was trying to point out that though the bacterial action and multiplication is decreased, or retarded, as pH dips below 6.0, it is in fact still present, still providing benefit, etc. It's just slowed tremendously and therefore, people with pH below 6.0 need to keep a sharp eye on ammonia in the the tank (and nitrites). The ammonia that they'll have in the tank is less toxic, but still an issue and needs to be dealt with promptly for the sake of the fish.

I found that twice weekly water changes and watching how much I fed worked to control ammonia in my low pH tanks. Then again, I was raising community fish and not discus! I'm pretty sure discus are gonna require more food and more water changes. =)

[mmorris]

I don't understand this notion that breeding or the simple fact of caring for Discus must be followed a certain way. It almost seems cult-ish around here as of late. .
Early days, Shawn. :) My impression based on the pics is that the parents spawned elsewhere, and you moved the eggs and one parent into the ten gallon. Is that right? Why, when they are 1 1/2 weeks old, is the tank, as small as it is, not full? Also, frozen bbs may not be very nutritious. It's the yolk sac on the bbs that is nutritious, not the bbs itself, and the yolk sac is pretty much absorbed before the day is out. One has no way of knowing how soon after hatching the bbs were frozen. Why not hatch them yourself? I'd like to see some updated pics. :)

[shawnhu]

Sorry Shawn for hijacking your Breeding log with this off topic sharing of opinions.

Jdizon,

No apologies needed, I'm finding this thread much more beneficial than I expected.

[shawnhu]

Early days, Shawn. :) My impression based on the pics is that the parents spawned elsewhere, and you moved the eggs and one parent into the ten gallon. Is that right? Why, when they are 1 1/2 weeks old, is the tank, as small as it is, not full? Also, frozen bbs may not be very nutritious. It's the yolk sac on the bbs that is nutritious, not the bbs itself, and the yolk sac is pretty much absorbed before the day is out. One has no way of knowing how soon after hatching the bbs were frozen. Why not hatch them yourself? I'd like to see some updated pics. :)

Hey Martha! Long time!

No, the parents were not moved, nor was the babies. They were spawned, hatched, and free-swam in the same 10G tank. Matter of fact, it's the lucky tank I got from one of the NEDA meetings. :)

As for hatching BBS, you bring up a great point that I did not know regarding yolks. I had some BBS eggs around, and did intact try to hatch my own. Unfortunately, I failed twice, and attribute the failure to expired eggs.

I've placed an order for a few grams just recently. Probably won't arrive in time, but it is what it is.

Take care!

P.S. Pics to come.

[mmorris]

Why did you remove one of the parents shortly after laying eggs, and why is the tank not full?

[shawnhu]

As promised, pic taken few seconds ago.

[shawnhu]

Why did you remove one of the parents shortly after laying eggs, and why is the tank not full?

Hey Martha,

One of the parents was pretty aggressive towards day 3 or 4(ready to spawn again maybe?) so it was removed. It didn't really do much in terms of attaching anyway, so I saw no benefit in keeping them together.

Perhaps a full tank is relative? What would constitute as a full 10G for you?

[mmorris]

Seven gallons in a 10 gallon tank is 70% full. I keep water levels just below the glass cover. How many fry do you have, by the way?

[shawnhu]

Seven gallons in a 10 gallon tank is 70% full. I keep water levels just below the glass cover. How many fry do you have, by the way?

Haha! Too early for me Martha, forgive me for my silliness. I assumed full as in stocking level. The water is indeed still at 70% full. It's not 100% because I didn't want the babies getting lost. They look like they are starting to wander off on their own now in search of food, so I may be able to boost it to 90 or 100% soon

Fry count is roughly 25-30.

[mmorris]

They might get lost in a 100 gallon tank. :)

[Orange Crush]

Shawnhu, since you are trying to prove that a method of breeding/raising fry different from what almost everyone else recommends I think it would be of great benefit to have more pictorial evidence of what you are doing. This way if it works there is the documentation to back up what you are doing. Why don't you post pictures of the following...
1) A picture of the tank that shows the entire tank so that everyone can see that it is a 10 G that mom and fry are in
2) A picture of the test tubes with the results of testing a) pH b) nitrItes c) nitrAtes d) ammonia (you will have to hold up the color chart for each test next to the test tube that corresponds with the results

[shawnhu]

Hey OC, it was never my intention to prove anything, but this thread has certainly evolved into that. Here's some pics to entertain those that do not believe.

Tank photo to follow.

[shawnhu]

Here's pics of the tank and fish.

Enjoy!

[shawnhu]

I can't believe it's come to this, maybe OC is the SD police

Lol, I'm sure she didn't mean any harm by her recommendations. But yes, I'm a little shocked at the outcome myself. It is what it is here with the group we have. We're all miniature scientists that require proof. Either way, I harbor no I'll feelings against anyone thus far. :)

[Orange Crush]

I can't believe it's come to this, maybe OC is the SD police
LOL. No, I am not the SD police. I think anyone can raise their fish how they want but if someone is doing something that is different than the recommended way (such as breeding in a 10 G with 4ppm ammonia) and thinks that it is going to work then I think there should be more documentation for everyone's benefit. This way if it works we know how to duplicate it and if it doesn't we know not to do that.
I'm not doubting shawnhu's honesty in this matter, it's just that I have had a lot of science, stats, research methods and experimental methodolgy classes with my major and I feel like without more documentation it does not help anyone be able to learn from this.
The current contest requires regular updates with pictures for people to learn, I think threads like this would be of benefit if they were asked to do the same thing for the same reason.

[Big-Ken]

I agree with OC, she's not asking for proof she's hoping you will validate your method and keep a photo log of the results to better serve discus keeping community. If your method works great maybe it could become standard someday and if not great then we know for sure

[shawnhu]

So what's going to be my award if I win? But wait, I'm not competing with anyone. I suppose I'll have to let the same folks that has looked down upon non-traditional methods judge if this "works" or not? No thanks.

It's really simple guys. Check in, drop by, say hi. But for the most part, this is a log for ME so that I can remember what it was like to try to raise my first batch of Discus.

I find myself explaining this explaining that over and over again, while my tank with 4ppm is in dire need of a water change! :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sharing information, but I've done enough debating in my life when I was in elementary school, I don't need it here on SD.

[TNT77]

So what's going to be my award if I win? But wait, I'm not competing with anyone. I suppose I'll have to let the same folks that has looked down upon non-traditional methods judge if this "works" or not? No thanks.

It's really simple guys. Check in, drop by, say hi. But for the most part, this is a log for ME so that I can remember what it was like to try to raise my first batch of Discus.

I find myself explaining this explaining that over and over again, while my tank with 4ppm is in dire need of a water change! :)

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for sharing information, but I've done enough debating in my life when I was in elementary school, I don't need it here on SD.
Its not a big deal when you keep a log for yourself at home. But when you put it on the internet..on a forum where people come to learn is where it becomes different. This is the point everyone is trying to get across to you.

[shawnhu]

Its not a big deal when you keep a log for yourself at home. But when you put it on the internet..on a forum where people come to learn is where it becomes different. This is the point everyone is trying to get across to you.

So in other words, policed? Always thought this forum was free. Are you saying that the average hobbyist isn't capable of deciding for themselves on what methods to use to care for THEIR fish?

[Big-Ken]

If this log is just for you then why not get yourself a notebook, your posting it here cause you want everyone see you thumb your nose at the status quo and show it can be done your way

[TNT77]

So in other words, policed? Always thought this forum was free. Are you saying that the average hobbyist isn't capable of deciding for themselves on what methods to use to care for THEIR fish?
No..people have been giving advice..and encouraging you to post more information in case it does work or to learn if it doesn't. It is not their fault if you take it as a personal affront.

[Orange Crush]

No..people have been giving advice..and encouraging you to post more information in case it does work or to learn if it doesn't.
+1

[Wjmulder]

Guess I'm in the minority but I find this thread interesting, I've heard the "status quo" methods of raising discus on this forum over and over again, and i dont disagree with them as being the optimal way to raise excellent discus. But it might be good to see the results of an alternative method, after all, it isn't hurting anybody else's fish! It doesn't look like the OP is asking for advice, he's obviously not as new to this hobby as some of the people trying to prove him wrong. Why does everyone feel so threatened?

[shawnhu]

If this log is just for you then why not get yourself a notebook, your posting it here cause you want everyone see you thumb your nose at the status quo and show it can be done your way

I see. So if I don't agree then I'm not welcome here is that so? Way to go in encouraging the hobby.

[shawnhu]

No..people have been giving advice..and encouraging you to post more information in case it does work or to learn if it doesn't. It is not their fault if you take it as a personal affront.

You've got to pretty ignorant if you don't see the trend on this thread. Information is posted since day one, and updated periodically. Now pictures of the test tubes? Really? Sorry if this is getting a little too personal for you, but how about you post some readings and pictures of your tanks for me, every week please. Thanks.

[Orange Crush]

I see. So if I don't agree then I'm not welcome here is that so? Way to go in encouraging the hobby.
We are not asking you to agree or to do it the way that many others are. Only to document it. If your way works don't you want to have a way to prove it? You would be well known and respected for your new method but only with proof.

[shawnhu]

I do not think any of us feel threated but if someone wants to show that their unconventional way works then they should have a way to prove it otherwise it is as good as The National Enquirer. Also, if it does not work that needs to be shown as well otherwise newbies may find this thread and try it to the detriment of their discus.

Perhaps you're missing a key point here OC. It wasn't my intention to raise the ammonia levels to 4ppm and then start breeding Discus. It just so happened that they enjoyed spawning after not changing the water for a week. I'd like to make that point clear, even though it's been mentioned already in this thread.

[shawnhu]

We are not asking you to agree or to do it the way that many others are. Only to document it. If your way works don't you want to have a way to prove it? You would be well known and respected for your new method but only with proof.

OC, not interested to be popular or well know for inventing anything. Just looking to raise my first spawn and keeping a log. I owe it to SD and to those that has helped me in the past to dispel these extremist ideologies about the absolute way of raising Discus.

I've seen your threads and respect you for being actively trying to help others and thus entertained your request for proof. Otherwise, I'll update as I see convenient for myself, and those that wish to follow this thread.

[TNT77]

You've got to pretty ignorant if you don't see the trend on this thread. Information is posted since day one, and updated periodically. Now pictures of the test tubes? Really? Sorry if this is getting a little too personal for you, but how about you post some readings and pictures of your tanks for me, every week please. Thanks.
No reason to resort to name calling. I was just pointing out what I have read. Its a different way yes..so people will question. And I believe OC was being sarcastic when she asked for pictures of the readings but I may have taken it different than you. And if someone wants to know the parameters of my tanks I am more than willing to provide such information.

[Big-Ken]

I see. So if I don't agree then I'm not welcome here is that so? Way to go in encouraging the hobby.
I'm done here at this point your just being a troll twisting what is being said around and putting words in peoples mouths. What's sad here is I, and I'm sure others as well, am quite interested in your methods and would like you to take a serious approach at documenting the progress because it is already quite a feat that you have gone from eggs to free swimming in water of this quality

[shawnhu]

No reason to resort to name calling. I was just pointing out what I have read. Its a different way yes..so people will question. And I believe OC was being sarcastic when she asked for pictures of the readings but I may have taken it different than you. And if someone wants to know the parameters of my tanks I am more than willing to provide such information.

TNT77, I meant no offense and no intention of name calling. Apologize if you took it that way. I just don't see how posting the numbers and explaining why the high levels of ammonia that would cause most to panic and do drastic things, isn't enough. Perhaps I'm not as level headed as you, and can't see past that the numbers are not good enough. But nevertheless, pictures have been posted, and nitrite levels are at 0, as I've expected even without the need to test the first time.

What are your parameters if you don't mind me asking?

[shawnhu]

I'm done here at this point your just being a troll twisting what is being said around and putting words in peoples mouths. What's sad here is I, and I'm sure others as well, am quite interested in your methods and would like you to take a serious approach at documenting the progress because it is already quite a feat that you have gone from eggs to free swimming in water of this quality

K, thanks, bye. Those interested will continue reading. Those who want to just cause trouble will be met with resistance. Thanks for your input thus far.

[TNT77]

TNT77, I meant no offense and no intention of name calling. Apologize if you took it that way. I just don't see how posting the numbers and explaining why the high levels of ammonia that would cause most to panic and do drastic things, isn't enough. Perhaps I'm not as level headed as you, and can't see past that the numbers are not good enough. Bit nevertheless, pictures have been posted, and nitrite levels are at 0, as I've expected even without the need to test the first time.

What are your parameters if you don't mind me asking?
Lol which tank I have 13 at the moment.

[shawnhu]

Lol which tank I have 13 at the moment.

I suppose it would be too much to ask for all 13? Lol. The one with the least water changes, or the one with the highest stocking level is fine. Pic of the tank would be great as well. No need for tube pics though. :)

[pcsb23]

OK folks, this thread is begining to deteriorte into a slanging match.

It stops now please. And I do really mean NOW! I will not hesitate to remove peoples posting ability. No further warning and no debate will be entered into - I am far too tired and cranky at the moment.

By all means continue to debate and discus in an adult and mature way, but absolutely NO MORE BS.

I do hope I have been clear here.

[shawnhu]

Hi Paul! Thanks for stepping in. I'm sure folks will keep it civil, including myself. I just checked the time in the UK, it's bloody 6:45 am!

[pcsb23]

Hi Paul! Thanks for stepping in. I'm sure folks will keep it civil, including myself. I just checked the time in the UK, it's bloody 6:45 am!Yep, and I have been at work for nearly two hours already, and won't finish until 6pm tonight - if I am lucky! Then I have a 2 hour drive home. I'm tired and cranky - and my patience is thin ;) ...

[shawnhu]

Just took out 1 gallon on water and replaced with 2. Also watched the fry chase after the frozen BBS I dropped in there. Added a pinch of crushed coral to help boost the ph and lower the ammonia. Should see 0 ammonia by early next week.

Some of the fry are about dime length. Anyone have a timeframe as to normal growth for fry?

[shawnhu]

Yep, and I have been at work for nearly two hours already, and won't finish until 6pm tonight - if I am lucky! Then I have a 2 hour drive home. I'm tired and cranky - and my patience is thin ;) ...

Paul, you need a vacation, we have a NEDA meeting in PA in a month. Beer's on me! Will be good to see you again.

[Orange Crush]

Some of the fry are about dime length. Anyone have a timeframe as to normal growth for fry?
Look at my thread post #112 Mine were freeswimmers for 11 days at that point. Same age as yours are now. Mine were dime size not dime length.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showthread.php?97914-Eeeek.-I-was-not-prepared-for-this..../page8

[shawnhu]

I'm about 11 days into free swimming, and your little monsters definitely look like eating machines!

Thanks for the reference.

[shawnhu]

I think you are seeing such slow growth because
1) not enough water changes (yup, I said it)
2) you are feeding frozen bbs not live
3) poor water quality (ammonia)
speaking of which why are you trying to raise your pH? crushed coral will do that but then you will have more free ammonia and raising pH will not make ammonia go away, only make it more harmful.

Hey OC, in regards to the growth, I have another theory. Anyways, the crushed coral, ph, and ammonia.

Nitrification is halted at a ph of 6, so if I increase it, I'll begin the cycled again.

By using crushed coral, my water will attempt to increase kh and ph, however, the nitrification process will prevent the ph to rise until there is no ammonia left. The nitrification process depletes kh and causes the ph to crash.

So when I actually see an increase in ph, that should mean that my ammonia level is 0, if my bacteria is still alive and well. Since I'm confident that they are, I can make these assumptions.

Hope that helps.

[Orange Crush]

Yes, the cycle will work more efficiently. Unfortunately, it takes time for enough bacteria to grow to remove the ammonia and in the meantime you have enough free ammonia to kill your fry and possibly the mom.

[Orange Crush]

Oh, and what is your theory on the slow growth?

[shawnhu]

Yes, the cycle will work more efficiently. Unfortunately, it takes time for enough bacteria to grow to remove the ammonia and in the meantime you have enough free ammonia to kill your fry and possibly the mom.

We'll see come Monday. I'm confident of my theories.

[shawnhu]

Oh, and what is your theory on the slow growth?

Lack of heat. :) That will be remedied in about a week.

[pastry]

Good grief Shawn, talk about a one-man fighting hole. Glad Paul stepped in. Thanks for continuing to post. Too bad OC's still hanging around though :p Just kidding OC! You're still a "smart a..." though :)

right now i've had crushed coral in my tank for about a week (had a "crushed coral" thread recently in the water works forum). others were advising me on it and Eric from Carolina Discus enlightened me on it when I visited him. i'm trying to find a "perfect amount" because i'd like to keep my Ph just below 7 yet still raise the GH & KH from where it is now.

[Len]

Hey OC, in regards to the growth, I have another theory. Anyways, the crushed coral, ph, and ammonia.

Nitrification is halted at a ph of 6, so if I increase it, I'll begin the cycled again.

By using crushed coral, my water will attempt to increase kh and ph, however, the nitrification process will prevent the ph to rise until there is no ammonia left. The nitrification process depletes kh and causes the ph to crash.

So when I actually see an increase in ph, that should mean that my ammonia level is 0, if my bacteria is still alive and well. Since I'm confident that they are, I can make these assumptions.

Hope that helps.

Nitrification isn't halted at ph of 6 if you cycle properly for low ph. During the cycle you need to drop the ph slowly in increments. Each time you drop it, some of the bacteria will die off and you will need to let it build back up before dropping ph again. Doing it this way you will be able to establish a bacteria colony that will do fine in low ph.

[shawnhu]

Good grief Shawn, talk about a one-man fighting hole. Glad Paul stepped in. Thanks for continuing to post. Too bad OC's still hanging around though :p Just kidding OC! You're still a "smart a..." though :)

right now i've had crushed coral in my tank for about a week (had a "crushed coral" thread recently in the water works forum). others were advising me on it and Eric from Carolina Discus enlightened me on it when I visited him. i'm trying to find a "perfect amount" because i'd like to keep my Ph just below 7 yet still raise the GH & KH from where it is now.

Hi Elliot,

Crushed coral is indeed a preferred buffering substance, but alone will not aid in the increase of GH. In a planted aquarium, you'll want to add ro right or equilibrium to restore GH to proper levels for plants to consume.

Hope this thread has been beneficial to you.

[shawnhu]

Nitrification isn't halted at ph of 6 if you cycle properly for low ph. During the cycle you need to drop the ph slowly in increments. Each time you drop it, some of the bacteria will die off and you will need to let it build back up before dropping ph again. Doing it this way you will be able to establish a bacteria colony that will do fine in low ph.

Hi Len_S

Since we're all talking about proof here, care to enlighten me with how you came to this conclusion?

[pastry]

shawn, i just pm'ed you without seeing your response here but now i'm REALLY confused because i've seen (sorry, no links but read it today somewhere) where crushed coral DOES raise GH (as well as pH and KH). sorry sorry sorry... just confused. just want to figure out if i need to add anything else to the LFS "to buy"-list. thanks for any and all feedback!

[shawnhu]

shawn, i just pm'ed you without seeing your response here but now i'm REALLY confused because i've seen (sorry, no links but read it today somewhere) where crushed coral DOES raise GH (as well as pH and KH). sorry sorry sorry... just confused. just want to figure out if i need to add anything else to the LFS "to buy"-list. thanks for any and all feedback!

Elliot, crushed coral is mainly used to control kh and ph. Although it does have calcium, and may affect gh readings, it's not enough to make an impact, since gh is a reading of calcium and magnesium. My understanding is that developing fry absorb minerals from the water, and thus after fertilization, TDS and gh should be elevated for grow-out. KH and pH is there to prevent fluctuation and shock to the fish. Crushed coral in the filters is great at buffering to reduce shock for this purpose.

I would recommend RO Right or equilibrium to increase GH rather than to rely on CC for GH. Please PM anytime if you would like to take offline.

[Len]

It's pretty straight forward. Do a fishless cycle as per normal and watch your ammonia / nitrite levels. Once the cycle is complete slowly drop your ph and you'll see mini cycles happening. Each time the cycle finishes do it again until you reach the desired ph. If nitrification stopped you would still be seeing ammonia and nitrite when you test.

Sure, you can google and find lots of information that tells you nitrification stops at 6, but its bunk. One of my tanks sits at about 5.6 and I can test till the cows come home and not get any readings for ammonia or nitrite, so that's proof enough for me.

http://www.finarama.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2073



Hi Len_S

Since we're all talking about proof here, care to enlighten me with how you came to this conclusion?

[Orange Crush]

Too bad OC's still hanging around though
Of course I am still hanging around, I want shawnhu to be successful because I care. So, just accept that I am here to stay and let it go. :p

[Len]

That is true. I wasn't suggesting that he start changing ph, just pointing out that stating nitrification stops at 6 is incorrect. The best thing to help with the ph now other than water changes is to use something like pure pond.

[Orange Crush]

That is true. I wasn't suggesting that he start changing ph, just pointing out that stating nitrification stops at 6 is incorrect. The best thing to help with the ph now other than water changes is to use something like pure pond.
I know you were not suggesting it but shawnhu is trying to raise his pH. I recommended he not do that last night but he is convinced that it will remove any ammonia - see post #126

[Len]

Yeah, I know. He was suggesting in post126 that his biofiltration would cycle and start working by raising ph. That's why I posted what I did. He isn't accounting for the fact that by the time the cycle finishes enough to keep his ammonia in check, his fish will be dead because the ammonium will turn to toxic ammonia. I'm with you - water changes, buy he seems determined not to follow the easiest route. Other than that, keep the ph lower where the ammonium will be relatively (though maybe not completely harmless) or use something to boost the biofiltration. You can only do your best to offer sound advice, but if he won't listen to you because he's determined to prove hisnway works, then there is always the hope that his ... second attempts at breeding discus will be more successful :-)

[shawnhu]

Len_S, OC,

Thanks for your concerns. Rest assured that all will be well when Monday comes around. Matter of fact, I'm going away for the weekend, so no water changes at ALL! (shock!!)

Crushed corals are in place, let's see what happens.

[shawnhu]

Ammonia is at .75 ppm and ph still at 6.

Looks like I'll need to raise the ph faster....

In goes 1/4 teaspoon of baking powder.

[pastry]

OC --I was being sarcastic earlier (in a good way of course).

shawn -- I'm eating this stuff up. Thanks my man. have a great weekend. I'm heading out as well to a bachelors weekend (if anyone asks, I just did a large WC... I actually did though). I will say though that I've always been fine with not checking my water as long as my fish were happy but this thread's helped me understand water better by you posting "rule breaking" water parameters and having everyone else jump on it (some more kindly than others of course :) ).

[shawnhu]

You're always welcome Elliot. Have a good one, I know how those parties can get. >:)

According to most of these folks, I should return to a tank full of dead fish by Monday. We'll see by then.

[mmorris]

In goes 1/4 teaspoon of baking powder.
Baking soda!!!
This is a link to a time-line I put together some time ago, and it includes my methods as well. I do a few things differently now, but not much. http://forum.bidka.org/threads/growth-time-line-to-2-in-tl.4559/

[Oscarsx]

You're always welcome Elliot. Have a good one, I know how those parties can get. >:)

According to most of these folks, I should return to a tank full of dead fish by Monday. We'll see by then.

I applaud you for standing up for yourself here mate, i truly hope everything works out for you..

Subbed to thread.

Sent from my DROID X2

[Duckesd]

The current goes from bottom to top, forcing the fish to swim and spawn sideways :D hahhahahahahahhaha thats classic

[shawnhu]

Haven't had time to do water tests yet, but here's a picture of the mess.

Sorry to disappoint.

[dpete9]

I can only see a few in the pic. Did they all survive the weekend?

[pastry]

hardy little buggers... shawn, you know this thread is going to have be a loooong living thread; right? i mean, it's on your own accord but i'm hoping you can do updates once in awhile so we can follow their progress. thanks for the updates and glad they're alive!!!

[shawnhu]

I can only see a few in the pic. Did they all survive the weekend?

Hey Pete, long time no chat buddy.

These little guys are a little harder to catch in a single photo now, they're wandering more and more, and I just fed them some "non-traditional" daphnia. Upon returning from camp, there were no dead babies and both parents are doing well. I've done a rough count again, and it's still in the 25-30 range.

[shawnhu]

hardy little buggers... shawn, you know this thread is going to have be a loooong living thread; right? i mean, it's on your own accord but i'm hoping you can do updates once in awhile so we can follow their progress. thanks for the updates and glad they're alive!!!

Elliot,

Thanks for the interest, I'll try my best to update as frequent as possible. Hunting season is just around the corner, and fall fishing isn't too far behind either. I still haven't built my DIY LED lighting system yet either. Lots of stuff on the table. I'll try my best.

[pastry]

shawn, you sound too much like me. fall fishing trends seem to already be starting down here and then I can smell football season just a few weeks away. also grad school (night classes), full time job, one-year old, pain in the butt dog, hurricane season for surfing, etc etc. I think my DIY sump will come around the winter time-frame. We'll see. But maybe a pic once a month or every other month within this same thread will keep the pot stirred for us! thanks bud!

[shawnhu]

Wife caught this pic on her phone, she obviously takes better pictures than I do.

[mmorris]

Nice to see they are still alive, Shawn. By the way, I love venison steak. And trout. And salmon. And...

[dpete9]

mmm trout and salmon.. feed those babies some venison heart mix?:p

[Oscarsx]

If you can breed discus, i can too! Haha.

Good picture ..

- Oz

[shawnhu]

mmm trout and salmon.. feed those babies some venison heart mix?:p

Not a bad idea. :)

[shawnhu]

If you can breed discus, i can too! Haha.

Good picture ..

- Oz

Oscar, thats the point that this thread has turned into. I believe newbies as well as experienced can learn a little from this. Most will beg to differ, however.

[nc0gnet0]

The proof will be in the finished product, as of right now nothing much has been accomplished.

Rick

[Skip]

Oscar, thats the point that this thread has turned into. I believe newbies as well as experienced can learn a little from this. Most will beg to differ, however.

yep.. get in the contest :) :)

[pastry]

Shawn,

Warlock's got a point :) Even in the contest you don't need to update every day or even every week (I don't think). But good place for people to reference quicker. That's how I came about Chad H's thread (and for those "use the 'search' function"-beaters, for the Love of God the search buttons sometimes bring up toooo much stuff to weed through!!! <smiley face>). Either way, I'll still be following this thread weather you do the contest or not. Just an interesting idea. If you're anything like me though then you probably won't (not enough time in the day for fishing, surfing, kids, school work, fix the dryer, & bachelor parties!).

[shawnhu]

Ive still have some time before the deadline for the contest. We'll see. I can't possibly compare with Chad, he's a mastermind when it came to water works.

Had some time today, and did some water tests. My predictions with the ph and ammonia was a bit off, I was expecting 0 ammonia and a ph drop by the time I returned, but instead the ammonia hasn't really budged, nor the ph.

1.5 ammonia
6.6 pH
7.5 nitrate
81 degrees

Water changes are about 1 gallon a day to replace siphoned leftover food.

As they grow bigger by the day, I may have to start changing the strategy. Fall is right around the corner, and I just got my heaters in. I may be raising the temps soon.

Edit*. Also noticed a few of them have moved on from daphnia to tetrabits.

[shawnhu]

Came home today to a bloated dead baby. He was of decent size compared to the rest. Left the house at 2pm and returned at 11pm. Stomach looked really bloated, like it stuffed itself. I've been noticing the batch eating more aggressively lately, and lots of very full bellies on the daphnia and tetrabits.

3ppm ammonia
6.7 ph
80 temp

It would seem that the filter and plants can no longer support these little guys at their size and consumption rate. Although I'm not sure why the little guy died, I'm going to kick into phase 2 of my plans a little earlier than expected. Stay tuned for a tank downgrade for phase 2!

[pastry]

that sucks. sorry about the little guy. can't wait to see what phase two brings, bud. nice to see you've got them on tetrabits. i'm still having a hard time getting my new young group off bloodworms. got in some super beefheart flakes that people raved about but no luck yet.

[shawnhu]

2 nights ago, I started phase 2. I separated the fry from mom, and re-introduced dad from isolation to mom. They didn't get along too well at all.

I counted the fry, and after that one dead one and culling another, I still count 31. So my initial estimate of 25-30 was a little off. It was actually 33.

Babies are now eating daphnia and new life spectrum, growth.

They're getting about 1.5 to 2 gallons water change per day, and adding RO right to supplement the water. Parameters before a water change to follow. Heater is added now, and slowly increasing. Appetite has increased since.

[Elliots]

Shawn, it is nice to read a thread of someone who does something not exactly like the prevailing opinions on SD. Many people on this site feel that there is an absolute best way to do Discus. They feel that is the only way. There is little regard that living things are adaptable. I only have one question for you. You are in NYC, as I am, you are feeding daphnia to your fry,where do you get the daphnia or are they frozen?
If you read the Stendker site you will see that they do things that people on SD would think does not work, yet it sure does as can be seen by their fish.

[shawnhu]

Shawn, it is nice to read a thread of someone who does something not exactly like the prevailing opinions on SD. Many people on this site feel that there is an absolute best way to do Discus. They feel that is the only way. There is little regard that living things are adaptable. I only have one question for you. You are in NYC, as I am, you are feeding daphnia to your fry,where do you get the daphnia or are they frozen?
If you read the Stendker site you will see that they do things that people on SD would think does not work, yet it sure does as can be seen by their fish.

Hi Elliots,

The daphnia I feed them are hikari frozen. They seem to like them. I'm not sure on the nutritional value, so I wouldn't jump to feeding your fry with them right away until you can get some more info on them.

Thanks for the complements and support.

[Elliots]

I do not have any fry. I liked Daphnia years ago because you put as many as you like into your tank and they don't die like brine shrimp nor cause potential problems with unwanted contaminants like tubifex worms.

[shawnhu]

Got a little time tonight, so I went and pulled some numbers.

4+ ppm ammonia
7.2-7.4 ph
2 gh
115 TDS
30 Celsius

They're currently in a 2.5 gallon tank, about 70% full.

They have been getting 80% water changes per day, and fed New Life Spectrum GROW .5 mm sinking pellets and Hikari frozen daphnia. They get about 1 cube of daphnia, twice a day. They receive pellets 2-4 times a day.

I'm currently adding 2.5 ml(.5 teaspoon) of RO Right liquid in the water change. I believe this is boosting my gh and TDS to the levels they are now. I may raise the gh some more in coming weeks.

Pictures to follow.

[shawnhu]

Here are pics of the parents back in their 10 gallon tank and the babies in the 2.5.

Also are pictures of the API test results and temp readings.

[james1234]

Here are pics of the parents back in their 10 gallon tank and the babies in the 2.5.

Also are pictures of the API test results and temp readings.

Just interested in what age are the fry in the picture?

[brewmaster15]

Shawn,

Please go into more detail on your water...what is your source waters parameter? Is it city water with Chloramine or chlorine? and Do you use any additives to neutralize that... Your ammonia values could be false positives...

all..
we need to wait and watch how the fry develop..... Thats the whole point of having this contest... to give hobbyists a chance to raise their fry..their way. Methods that don't work will eventually be shown to not work....Its the beauty of this contest.

Shawn, a word of advice on what to look for IF the ammonia values are what you have tested... gill deformities and labored breathing may be an issue from ammonia burns. By adding RO right, you may be giving them some protection to Nitrites, but I would watch for Nitrite spikes...those are IMO, often more deadly to fry.

good luck,
al

-al

[shawnhu]

Just interested in what age are the fry in the picture?

Hi James,

In my first post, you will find the timeline. They were free swimming 8/5.

[shawnhu]

Shawn,

Please go into more detail on your water...what is your source waters parameter? Is it city water with Chloramine or chlorine? and Do you use any additives to neutralize that... Your ammonia values could be false positives...

all..
we need to wait and watch how the fry develop..... Thats the whole point of having this contest... to give hobbyists a chance to raise their fry..their way. Methods that don't work will eventually be shown to not work....Its the beauty of this contest.

Shawn, a word of advice on what to look for IF the ammonia values are what you have tested... gill deformities and labored breathing may be an issue from ammonia burns. By adding RO right, you may be giving them some protection to Nitrites, but I would watch for Nitrite spikes...those are IMO, often more deadly to fry.

good luck,
al

-al

Al,

Thanks for chiming in. The water source is NYC municipal water, sometimes aged, sometimes not. The water does not contain chloramines, but chlorine. I use Safe when not aging the water.

In recent years, tests from the tap does not show any ammonia or nitrites, but very low nitrates and a neutral ph. Gh and kh are extremely low out of the tap as well.

I shouldn't have a nitrite spike due to no filtration in this tank, but I'll keep watch of it in the coming weeks.

[brewmaster15]

Shawn,
I'm not familar with "safe" being on a well here, but does anyone know if locks up/detoxes ammonia?

-al

[Larry Bugg]

Al, Safe is the concentrated, powdered form of Prime. It does lock/detox ammonia.

Safe
Product Description
Safe™ is the complete and concentrated dry conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Safe™ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Safe™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Safe™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Safe™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. Safe™ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Safe™ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water.

[brewmaster15]

Larry, Thanks!

If I had my guess...I would attribute the effects of the safe as the reason for the ammonia levels...and for them not being toxic.:) .... If I had a guess... Thats not to say the Safe is making ammonia...but it explains why its not toxic..


-al

[shawnhu]

Larry, Thanks!

If I had my guess...I would attribute the effects of the safe as the reason for the ammonia levels...and for them not being toxic.:) .... If I had a guess... Thats not to say the Safe is making ammonia...but it explains why its not toxic..


-al

Al,

I've only used tap water/safe on the babies once or twice. Everything else has been aged water. Last water change was a couple hours ago with aged. I'll take another reading tonight to see where we are with the aged water change.

[shawnhu]

Another water test this evening without the use of Safe or Prime, or any water conditioner except for RO Right, double dosed.

3 ppm ammonia

Water was changed after water test.

I've also made a short video to celebrate their one month of free swimming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx585nJMfIc

[james1234]

Another water test this evening without the use of Safe or Prime, or any water conditioner except for RO Right, double dosed.

3 ppm ammonia

Water was changed after water test.

I've also made a short video to celebrate their one month of free swimming.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx585nJMfIc

Just out of curiosity would you test your tap water for ammonia next time you do some tests?

[shawnhu]

Just out of curiosity would you test your tap water for ammonia next time you do some tests?

Sure James.

Aged water:

0 ppm ammonia

Tank water:

2-3 ppm ammonia
6.8 ph

Other parameters should remain the same.

I noticed last night after double disingenuous RO Right, 2 of the fry turned a little dark and started to shake and tailstand almost. I added some water conditioner to the tank and symptoms went away. I suspect that the higher gh and maybe kh from the RO Right may have turned the ammonia toxic. Today, I added conditioner to the aged water to increase water level to 95%.

[Eddie]

Are you having a cycle issue and that is why the ammonia is present?

[Len]

Just a reminder that since Shawn has entered the competition, we are not welcome to post any advice or commentary unless asked. There may be methods used by any of the contestants that many do not agree with, but one of the goals of the competition is to compare the outcome reached by using different methods, whether the result is good or bad.

[dbfzurowski]

Well said,thanks Len

So shawnhu,
Your adding RO Right to increase gh and kh? Why not use more tap water in your mix? I never used RO Right so is there an advantage to using that vs just more hard tap water?

[shawnhu]

My tap is very soft, 0 gh and 0 kh.

[shawnhu]

Are you having a cycle issue and that is why the ammonia is present?

Hi Eddie! I don't have any filtration in the tank. The higher than normal temps and heavier feedings is causing the high ammonia.

I'm controlling the ammonia with lower ph and Safe at the moment, but when I'm ready to step up the RO Right dosage to a higher level, I'll need to figure something out with the ammonia.

[shawnhu]

It has been brought to my attention that some posts were removed due to inappropriate content. Although I don't know what was posted or by whom, I'm sure it was removed for good reason.

I've been a part of simply since I started keeping Discus, and although probably not as long as some of the folks here, I do really like the people and community here. Which is why I'm trying to give back some of my experiences, weather good or bad, it is what it is. If there is something you don't understand or just would like to ask a question, feel free to post here or PM me. If you plan on being closed minded and act childish like some have shown to be capable, please save it and join the others like you. Rude comments are not welcomed here, and I appreciate our moderators removing any content they deem inappropriate.

Thanks to those that are open minded and those that are supportive to a first time Discus breeder.

[Eddie]

Hi Eddie! I don't have any filtration in the tank. The higher than normal temps and heavier feedings is causing the high ammonia.

I'm controlling the ammonia with lower ph and Safe at the moment, but when I'm ready to step up the RO Right dosage to a higher level, I'll need to figure something out with the ammonia.

Okay, I wasn't sure why there was ammonia. Sounds like you have your plan.

[pastry]

Shawn, I haven't been on in awhile... great to see you in the contest! Thanks for continuing to post your experiment!

[shawnhu]

I took some pictures last night of the fish before an after water change. Here they are.

Aside from having to feed more, they're all getting a 90% water change once a day or once every other day. I've increased the RO Right dosage to 5ml per 2.5 gallons this week.

[Kal-El]

This was a great read... I'm glad you are taking a different method then the norm of what folks in this forum would do... I know some folks in here would jump on you if you don't do it the traditional way. Way to stay with it. Good luck... I too am looking into ways of growing discus the unconventional way with less water change so one day I can help those that want to get in the hobby but can't commit to all of the daily water changes.

[shawnhu]

This was a great read... I'm glad you are taking a different method then the norm of what folks in this forum would do... I know some folks in here would jump on you if you don't do it the traditional way. Way to stay with it. Good luck... I too am looking into ways of growing discus the unconventional way with less water change so one day I can help those that want to get in the hobby but can't commit to all of the daily water changes.

Thanks, appreciate the nice comments. I hope through this, some may realize that it's not impossible to raise Discus in an absolute sterile and time consuming manner.

[shawnhu]

I've noticed that some of these guys are getting feisty. There's about 3-4 of them that would chase others away when feeding, and the largest one would turn dark and hog up the surface food. I also noticed that there's some flashing going on today, so there may be some irritation going on.

[Skip]

I too am looking into ways of growing discus the unconventional way with less water change so one day I can help those that want to get in the hobby but can't commit to all of the daily water changes.

yep.. thats why the contest is great.. following development of all fry for over a year :)

[TNT77]

This was a great read... I'm glad you are taking a different method then the norm of what folks in this forum would do... I know some folks in here would jump on you if you don't do it the traditional way. Way to stay with it. Good luck... I too am looking into ways of growing discus the unconventional way with less water change so one day I can help those that want to get in the hobby but can't commit to all of the daily water changes.
I just got done with a 5 month trial of raising a group of 10 2.5" fish on twice weekly water changes. :) I got 2 stunning huge ones out of the bunch and had to cull the rest. So I guess if you don't mind some losses and the extra money down the drain. But that was just my recent experience.

[Kal-El]

I just got done with a 5 month trial of raising a group of 10 2.5" fish on twice weekly water changes. :) I got 2 stunning huge ones out of the bunch and had to cull the rest. So I guess if you don't mind some losses and the extra money down the drain. But that was just my recent experience.

Tara, post some photo of those two in your homestead section. Would love to see how they look...

[shawnhu]

I just got done with a 5 month trial of raising a group of 10 2.5" fish on twice weekly water changes. :) I got 2 stunning huge ones out of the bunch and had to cull the rest. So I guess if you don't mind some losses and the extra money down the drain. But that was just my recent experience.

Tara, that's a 20% success rate, so with the 30 fish that I have now, if 6 will turn out stunning, I'm game for that.

Thanks for sharing.

[TNT77]

Tara, that's a 20% success rate, so with the 30 fish that I have now, if 6 will turn out stunning, I'm game for that.

Thanks for sharing.
I was just lucky the 2 nicest ones lived lol. I will say I wont do that experiment again. Way too much of an acceptable loss for me.

[shawnhu]

I'm starting to see more fighting, and some flashing and darting. One of them even has went dark(also a darter).

Aside from water quality, is there anything else I can look into?

[Orange Crush]

I'm starting to see more fighting, and some flashing and darting. One of them even has went dark(also a darter).

Aside from water quality, is there anything else I can look into?
start with water quality. It will strengthen their immune systems to have the water better than what it has been. Also, it could possibly prevent more problems and fix some that you have now.

[dbfzurowski]

I see my adults fight all the time, I assume same happens to youngsters. I think a bigger tank might help just so your fish can swim away from the bullies.

[Slade2682]

Hi I live in the Bronx I was just wondering is you would sell me some

[shawnhu]

Slade, unfortunately, these fish will not be for sale.

[Slade2682]

Thanks anyways

[shawnhu]

Tonight, I pulled 2 from the batch and began treatment with Quick Cure.

[shawnhu]

Pulled another one for treatment. Will be pulling at least 2 more shortly.

[Second Hand Pat]

Shawn, sorry you are having to pull your fish for treatment. Hope they come around for you with no losses.
Pat

[shawnhu]

Shawn, sorry you are having to pull your fish for treatment. Hope they come around for you with no losses.
Pat

Thanks Pat, hope so too.

[shawnhu]

I'm sad to report that I have lost 2 today. Today would be the 3rd day of treatment of Quick Cure for the first 2 pulled.

I didn't see too much improvement with these two, so I gave them a PP bath. There was no improvement after the PP bath either.

I currently have 5 still in treatment.

[shawnhu]

Lost a nice one today, was also in quarantine.

[Poco]

Shawn, sorry to hear that. I hope the rest get better.

[Skip]

how may have you lost total?

[Poco]

how may have you lost total?

3

[shawnhu]

Since attaching, I have lost a total of 5 till this post. One was found dead early, was maybe 1/2 inch. There was also a belly swimmer that was culled.

This recent issue has taken 3, and I can see a few more to follow if I can't figure out the cure.

[Eddie]

Since attaching, I have lost a total of 5 till this post. One was found dead early, was maybe 1/2 inch. There was also a belly swimmer that was culled.

This recent issue has taken 3, and I can see a few more to follow if I can't figure out the cure.

Check your PMs

[shawnhu]

I put a few of them through a salt dip and then back in fresh water. Before going into the dip, one of them wasn't looking too good already, and eventually didn't make it. I lose one more tonight.

[Eddie]

Sorry to hear man...I don't do salt dips on really young fish. Its a pretty harsh treatment.

[shawnhu]

They're sitting in a salt bath for the time being at a concentration of 11 tablespoons per 25 gallons. I'll start an antibacterial tonight when I return. Dropping the temp as well.

[Eddie]

They're sitting in a salt bath for the time being at a concentration of 11 tablespoons per 25 gallons. I'll start an antibacterial tonight when I return. Dropping the temp as well.

Keep us posted!

[Kal-El]

Hoping you figure this out. Would love to see how these guys turn out for the contest. Good luck.

[jimg]

They're sitting in a salt bath for the time being at a concentration of 11 tablespoons per 25 gallons. I'll start an antibacterial tonight when I return. Dropping the temp as well.11 per 25 gals? what happened to the 3%? no where near strong enough to do anything. good luck with the rest.

[shawnhu]

Thanks for the support guys. I'll do the best I can to keep these guys going.

[shawnhu]

They are currently all undergoing a PP treatment. I've notices that those that went through a PP treatment has slowed breathing and perked up fins with decent coloring.

[shawnhu]

I had to pull them from the PP and back into the tank since I noticed a few of them starting to roll over. Here's some immediate pics after pulling from PP.

[shawnhu]

This is them after settling in a little.

[nc0gnet0]

Rolling over in PP? Thats something you usually see in a salt bath. Sorry to see your having issues. I might be inclined to go with copper, others will differ.

rick

[shawnhu]

Rolling over in PP? Thats something you usually see in a salt bath. Sorry to see your having issues. I might be inclined to go with copper, others will differ.

rick

Thanks Rick. Could I ask why copper?

[nc0gnet0]

It's broad spectrum and a not as harsh of fry/young juvies. There are a lot of people here that dont like it. You have to be carefull how long you treat with it, no longer than 5-6 days in my book. It's just a personal preference.

[jimg]

copper is something I have always liked but it takes weeks for it to be most effective and with amount of wc's done with discus,it's not worth it and it has to be used with a copper test kit with the correct values.
if you want to successfully treat these, you need to complete one coarse of treatment whichever you chose, but need to complete one and wait a few days at least before the next. as I said I would do salt dips, not bath and do for 3 days without any other change, then into clean water. if you don't like the 3% which has worked perfect for me then go to min of 2%. pp is not as effective and many times 2ppm is not enough. if you don't see the slime coat shed after 4-5 hrs then it did little except irritate the gills and make things worse on the fish.i don't like low dose salt baths more than 2-3 days or stronger baths for 1/2 hr or longer because it effects the functions of the organs
through osmoregulation,dehydration is what they don't need. stronger salt dips for few minutes don't go beyond the exterior of the fish except for a little in the gills. if they die after a short salt dip, they were goners anyway.
My thing to do would be the salt dips then if showing slow results or still seeing fin deterioration add some acriflavin to the clean water for a week. then into metro because by now i'd be sure the flagellates are expanding inside them.
my opinion on what they might have is from flukes whether directly from them and secondary microbes or other pathogens took advantage of weakness so a basic fluke treatment is too late and too slow. jmo/e

[shawnhu]

Jim,

Thanks for the explanation of the copper. I currently have both treatments handy. I have a solution of PP and also some salt on hand in a premade solution.

I do thank everyone that has taken their time to chime in and help me here. Good news is, I have not lost any For a couple days now. Bad news is after a water change today I almost lost one. I put him in PP and looks like he is recovering now. I literally pulled him out of hell.

I also salt dipped another one that was dark but looked healthy. He took the salt like a pro for a few minutes, and finally rolled. He's now in PP with 2 others. I'll be placing these 3 in isolation to monitor in the coming days.

Jim, Eddie, and everyone else that has supported me, thank you very much!

[Eddie]

Good luck with them! All the best

[nc0gnet0]

So your performing a salt dip and then right to the PP? Yikes.......I wouldn't recomend this.



I put him in PP and looks like he is recovering now.

this statement confuses me, care to extrapolate? You are aware the PP is not a medication correct? While PP has many uses, fish seldom recover while recieving treatment, but afterwards.

[shawnhu]

So your performing a salt dip and then right to the PP? Yikes.......I wouldn't recomend this.




this statement confuses me, care to extrapolate? You are aware the PP is not a medication correct? While PP has many uses, fish seldom recover while recieving treatment, but afterwards.

Hi Rick,

You got it right, I salt dipped one of them and placed him in a quick PP with 2 others. They are looking good for the time being.

As for knowing that PP is not a medical treatment, I am aware. The little guy was floating around the tank, without any balance and not even trying to swim. I saw very little gill movement, and said what the heck, in the PP he goes. Hope he makes a recovery now that he's out of the PP. He's at lease swimming, breathing and upright now.

I believe I need to be one step ahead in order for them to make a recovery, and my next challenge is figuring out why some of them look a little bloated, and not really balanced.

[shawnhu]

A quick update today. No fatalities to report since last, so that's good. Treated with PP for 4 hrs last night and selective salt dips as necessary. Here are a couple pics and a video tonight.

Also, starting them on Furan2, just in case they have a secondary bacterial infection. Next step would be to get their appetites back and continue growth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gacnwXfjj08

[nc0gnet0]

If you had to do it over again would you raise them the same way?

Rick

[shawnhu]

If you had to do it over again would you raise them the same way?

Rick

Rick,

We all learn from mistakes. The mistake I made here is not moving them to a larger tank, sooner. If the question is, would I breed another batch of baby Discus from a 10 gallon again, yes I would. Would I keep 30 Discus in a 2.5 gallon tank again, yes I would. Is there room for improvement in this method, yes there is.

Hope this answers your question.

[Skip]

Rick,

We all learn from mistakes. The mistake I made here is not moving them to a larger tank, sooner. If the question is, would I breed another batch of baby Discus from a 10 gallon again, yes I would. Would I keep 30 Discus in a 2.5 gallon tank again, yes I would. Is there room for improvement in this method, yes there is.

Hope this answers your question.


+1

[shawnhu]

First time doing one of these, hope I didn't hurt the little guy.

[Eddie]

He's fine. How are they doing?

[shawnhu]

He's fine. How are they doing?

Eddie, they're all back to their normal routine. Still a little slower on their appetite, but all look well and recovering. Whatever they had, they had for along while now that their gill function is slowed and more normal. Thanks for asking!

[Eddie]

Eddie, they're all back to their normal routine. Still a little slower on their appetite, but all look well and recovering. Whatever they had, they had for along while now that their gill function is slowed and more normal. Thanks for asking!

Thats great news man! Hopefully they'll bounce back and begin eating well again. Slowly but surely!

[nc0gnet0]

Any updates?

Rick

[shawnhu]

Hey Rick. Thanks for checking in, not much going on, been quite busy. We'll see how this week goes, may have to consider how much time I can put into this and be fair to everyone following.

Here's a few shots just now.

76323
76324

[shawnhu]

Hurricane Sandy has come and gone, but in her wake, NYC is still in shambles.

These little guys were lucky to have survived, but this week, they start their diet on Al's FDBW!

76390

76391

[Eddie]

Wow, thats a SUPER small tank! They look happy though.

[shawnhu]

Wow, thats a SUPER small tank! They look happy though.

Yeh Eddie, NYC will do that to ya, and the fish. I'm working on an "upgrade". Thanks again for your help previously. They're pretty active and aggressive eaters. Time for their water change.

[bogia99]

Rick,

We all learn from mistakes. The mistake I made here is not moving them to a larger tank, sooner. If the question is, would I breed another batch of baby Discus from a 10 gallon again, yes I would. Would I keep 30 Discus in a 2.5 gallon tank again, yes I would. Is there room for improvement in this method, yes there is.

Hope this answers your question.

+1

I have read your tread with immense interest in your adventurous and creative ways of raising frys. A fascinating journey with many unconventional activities with not so shabby accomplishments so far. It is not to say that I will copycat your way just because that I don't think I have enough skill yet to keep my (future) frys alive through many issues you have encountered. But at least I know the edge of the cliff has been broaden if I choose to take it down this path. Please continue to update with your activities. Again +1

[Kingdom Come Discus]

I think they are looking very well. I am glad they survived Sandy, but more important I am glad you did!!!

[sanjay337]

Any for sale
im in queens ny

[brewmaster15]

Hey Shawn,
Any updates?

-al

[nc0gnet0]

Hate to say it but two months without an update.......you could just about swap fish at that point.


Rick

[Arjunpun]

good post enjoyed reading but no update?

[yim11]

Looks like this participant is out.

[Bill63SG]

Yep,hasnt logged in in about 2 months.

[shawnhu]

Hi folks. Thanks for all that's been following and many more thanks to those that has kept a positive attitude towards this thread.

This update is long overdue.

I feel there are those in this forum that don't seem to view this competition the same way as I do. Barb Newell, although I did not know her, I can tell she was kind hearted and did so much for this hobby we all love. When I created this log, I had no intentions of making any claims, or causing any disputes, yet that's what this thread has become. People bickering and throwing accusations at me. People I've never met, showing hostility towards me and my methods. Even after joining the competition, and despite the rules and warnings, this hostility continues. This is NOT why I joined this forum, and most certainly not why I joined the competition.

And with that, it saddens me to announce my withdrawal from the 3rd annual Barb Newell discus competition.

Barb was a great person, and a great Discus lover. She deserves to be honored the same way she lived.

Life has thrown me a few curve balls, and I can no longer honor her by following the rules of the competition. By default, I should have been disqualified by now.

I know some of you are more than thrilled to hear of the news, but I regretfully inform that all Discus from the last update is doing well. Despite the reduction in feedings to twice a day and reduced water changes to once every 4 days, I regret to inform the haters fish are lively and begs for food each time I walk by. Yes, the same fish from the same batch from the same in the earlier pictures.

Those that has supported this thread, please continue to do so. I may not have as much time as other folks, but that's part of why I started this thread. Not all of us discus keepers have the time or means to do 100% water changes, every single day. I'll continue to update this thread as long as the moderators allow me to, but with a baby on the way, it may be in the middle of the nights between naps.

Good luck to the remaining contestants, and good luck to my friends.

Shawn

[Trier20]

Hey Shawn sorry to hear you had to withdrawal. Glad to hear the fish are doing well. This contest was alot of work. When life takes over you have to do what you have to do. Good luck on continuing to grow this group out.

[yim11]

Pics are gone?

[Chicago Discus]

Hi folks. Thanks for all that's been following and many more thanks to those that has kept a positive attitude towards this thread.

This update is long overdue.

I feel there are those in this forum that don't seem to view this competition the same way as I do. Barb Newell, although I did not know her, I can tell she was kind hearted and did so much for this hobby we all love. When I created this log, I had no intentions of making any claims, or causing any disputes, yet that's what this thread has become. People bickering and throwing accusations at me. People I've never met, showing hostility towards me and my methods. Even after joining the competition, and despite the rules and warnings, this hostility continues. This is NOT why I joined this forum, and most certainly not why I joined the competition.

And with that, it saddens me to announce my withdrawal from the 3rd annual Barb Newell discus competition.

Barb was a great person, and a great Discus lover. She deserves to be honored the same way she lived.

Life has thrown me a few curve balls, and I can no longer honor her by following the rules of the competition. By default, I should have been disqualified by now.

I know some of you are more than thrilled to hear of the news, but I regretfully inform that all Discus from the last update is doing well. Despite the reduction in feedings to twice a day and reduced water changes to once every 4 days, I regret to inform the haters fish are lively and begs for food each time I walk by. Yes, the same fish from the same batch from the same in the earlier pictures.

Those that has supported this thread, please continue to do so. I may not have as much time as other folks, but that's part of why I started this thread. Not all of us discus keepers have the time or means to do 100% water changes, every single day. I'll continue to update this thread as long as the moderators allow me to, but with a baby on the way, it may be in the middle of the nights between naps.

Good luck to the remaining contestants, and good luck to my friends.

Shawn


Shawn I'm sorry to hear that your not continuing your contest fish I enjoyed reading this thread and I commend you for thinking outside the box and trying new things to many people get caught up in the normal way of doing things and thats not how things are created or learned. It would be a very boring life if we were all cookie cutters from the same mold. You are inspiring thank you.....Josie

[pastry]

Shawn, I know it doesn't help much now but I was still following you when I could! It does suck getting pinged constantly with the same negative comments ..or comments that started off constructive yet after hearing the same one for the 100th time (because people don't read any of the earlier portions of the threads and blindly post) then it just becomes a repititive kick in the nuts.

Good luck with the little one on the way! And for what it's worth, I hope you continue on and ignore any of those comments that aren't supportive at all (definitely easier said than done). Not sure if it's going to be your first kid but if so then feel free to PM if you need ideas on how to maintain your tank while also having to watch the little one. I've become a pro and I'm sure it's only a matter of time before we do it all over again.

[John_Nicholson]

While some will take this as negative I ask that you bear with me a minute please....I don't know this fellow and I have nothing against him personally but here is the problem that I have....He claims to be doing something that 99% of all old time successful discus keepers would say could not work in the long term. After making these claims he chimes in fairly often saying how great its going and then poof he is gone. When he does show back up he cries about being mistreated but still claims how great the fish are doing, but does can't take the time to post a picture? Personally I think this experiment went bad. Now it has no affect on me so did I bother to post? No I don't get some kind of perverse pleasure from it. I have spent a lot of time though the years trying to help new discus people find success. I have flown all around this country giving talks and I don't like to fly. I don't like landing in Chicago when its 1 degree...LOL. I just don't want some new person to login here and think it works perfectly fine to keep discus in a 10 gallon planted tank. It is a recipe for disaster and it need to be noted as such. Now don't get me wring I am all for trying new stuff. That is how we learned how to do this in the old days...we tried lots of things and kept doing the ones that worked. I just hate it when people make outrageous claims, don't provide proof, and then act offended when they get questioned.

-john

[Jdizon20]

Keep doing what you're doing Shawn. Enjoy your hobby. Good luck with the baby and congrats in advance.

[Poco]

While some will take this as negative I ask that you bear with me a minute please....I don't know this fellow and I have nothing against him personally but here is the problem that I have....He claims to be doing something that 99% of all old time successful discus keepers would say could not work in the long term. After making these claims he chimes in fairly often saying how great its going and then poof he is gone. When he does show back up he cries about being mistreated but still claims how great the fish are doing, but does can't take the time to post a picture? Personally I think this experiment went bad. Now it has no affect on me so did I bother to post? No I don't get some kind of perverse pleasure from it. I have spent a lot of time though the years trying to help new discus people find success. I have flown all around this country giving talks and I don't like to fly. I don't like landing in Chicago when its 1 degree...LOL. I just don't want some new person to login here and think it works perfectly fine to keep discus in a 10 gallon planted tank. It is a recipe for disaster and it need to be noted as such. Now don't get me wring I am all for trying new stuff. That is how we learned how to do this in the old days...we tried lots of things and kept doing the ones that worked. I just hate it when people make outrageous claims, don't provide proof, and then act offended when they get questioned.

-john

Agree with John. I have respect for people trying new thing and new ways but not 180 degrees in opposite direction and try to convince that it is the right way. Keeping fish in high ammonia is similar to humans living in heavily polluted industrial area where the air is full of cr@p, we wouldn't die instantly but it will have long term health effects and can shortens ones life as a result.

I honestly believe if it was dog or cats treated the way these fish were treated all hell will break loose.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your new baby and family.

All the best.

[Kal-El]

Agree with John. I have respect for people trying new thing and new ways but not 180 degrees in opposite direction and try to convince that it is the right way. Keeping fish in high ammonia is similar to humans living in heavily polluted industrial area where the air is full of cr@p, we wouldn't die instantly but it will have long term health effects and can shortens ones life as a result.

I honestly believe if it was dog or cats treated the way these fish were treated all hell will break loose.

I wish you all the luck in the world with your new baby and family.

All the best.

This tread has grown since I last posted for me to read through everything, but if I recall Shawn never claim/try to convince other that his way was the right way. He was only showing that he was taking a different approach to growing Discus. It's when we start assuming the end result and accusing them for not providing enough updates/result because it already failed is when we stir up negativity in this forum. I'm sadden that you Shawn have to drop out of the contest. Best of luck with your new born and do post pic of your little guys when you have time. Would love to see how they look as adult.

[Second Hand Pat]

...

Those that has supported this thread, please continue to do so. I may not have as much time as other folks, but that's part of why I started this thread. Not all of us discus keepers have the time or means to do 100% water changes, every single day. I'll continue to update this thread as long as the moderators allow me to, but with a baby on the way, it may be in the middle of the nights between naps.

Guys, let's see if this happens.
Pat

[yim11]

With the pictures removed, there is no reference. I know rules were setup to prevent changing info and pics for the contestants and the removal of the pics directly contridicts that.

[Chicago Discus]

With the pictures removed, there is no reference. I know rules were setup to prevent changing info and pics for the contestants and the removal of the pics directly contridicts that.


Well I cant remove, change or alter any of my videos or photos so I'm not sure how he did it...maybe Pat can clear this up.......Josie

[Second Hand Pat]

Josie, you remove the pictures or video from the source like YouTube or Photobucket. If the pictures are an attachment I do not believe those can be removed.

[Chicago Discus]

Josie, you remove the pictures or video from the source like YouTube or Photobucket. If the pictures are an attachment I do not believe those can be removed.

Oh ok I didn't think of removing the source that makes sense

[Second Hand Pat]

OK, believe Jim is having a firewall issue as I can see the pictures and video links. The two video links I checked are working in the last four pages of this thread so at this point it is wait and see.

[Chicago Discus]

I can pull up the videos and photos your probably right

[Kal-El]

Videos and photos on this thread still works for me also. I just review a few of the last updates that Shawn posted.

[yim11]

Thanks to Pat I was able to resolve my filter/dmz issue and can see the pics again.

[Second Hand Pat]

np Jim, happy to help. :)