Frustrating...Wrigglers not wriggling..dying off.

[bornlooser]

I have had 3 pairs in 3 different tanks laying eggs...the eggs hatch with a relatively high hatch rate , but after 24 hours or so the wrigglers simply fall off the cone and are all dead(they do not wriggle).I can eliminate the weak gene/underdeveloped eggs theory because it simply cant apply to all three pairs.

My PH is around 7.2 and the water is soft TDS around 100,temp is maintained around 82-84 f....maximum (80%) water change 2 hours after spawn and Methylene Blue(MB) is added ,80 mg per 100 liters ...water is completely changed after 48 hours,that s approximately 12 hours before hatch, and MB is removed.no filter.I do not do a Potassium Permanganate (PP) treatment to rid them of parasites cause my PH is high( could be detrimental to fish).My guess is that it could be a parasitic attack or bacterial problem. Also note that i have had 3 batches of fry from :confused::confused: other tanks which are ok......Please help.

[ref0716]

Have you pulled these eggs, or are the parents still in the tank with them? I use MB only when eggs have been pulled, and then only 1 drop per gallon. I think that maybe a large water change before hatch could lead to bacteria issues. When I use only a little MB, I make no water changes until free swimming, and then only 25 percent at a time, 3 times in one day and then daily after that. At least that is what has worked well for me. HTH
Richard

[bornlooser]

Thanks a lot Richard,i have not pulled the eggs, the eggs are with the parents.I ll try your method next time...great insight.

[xxbenjamminxx]

I have a PH of 7.6 to 7.8 and I have used PP several times without incident. Most of my fish were still battling for territory, etc, while they are being treated.

[bornlooser]

Thats good to hear,Ben thanks a lot..shall try it right away.

[mmorris]

When you do a wc are you using aged water that is the same temp and ph exactly? I wonder if that last wc before hatching is the culprit. People seem to mess around a lot in their desperation to hatch out as many as possible. MB doesn't always help. I never use it on discus eggs, although it seems to help the cory eggs hatch. 50% wc should be more than enough. If you are feeding highly-polluting foods like beefheart when they have eggs, you might want to try something less polluting, like pellets or fdbw.

[bornlooser]

Yes, mmorris, i use aged water but not exactly the same temp...maybe slightly less..i have not checked the ph...anyway good perspective...something to ponder about.thanks.

[Kldiscusfarm]

I have the same problem, I don't change the water at all but i just lower it to half tank. Wrigglers are strong and moving for 24hrs then die at the same time, any advise?

[bornlooser]

I think its better to have as much water as possible... until they start to free swim, you can lower the water level if you have attachment problems.More water volume means less chances for ammonia,nitrite buildup.

[shawnhu]

bornlooser,

You may want to read my recent thread about being a first time Discus breeder. I'm sorry for your fustration, but sometimes it might be better to let nature take it's course than to meddle around too much.

Good luck on your next batch!

[BobDaniel]

Ammonia?

[Kldiscusfarm]

How do I check ammonia level? What's the best ammonia level? How can I alter ammonia level? Anyone have advise? Thanks

[shawnhu]

Hi Kldiscusfarm,

Perhaps it's best if you start a new thread regarding ammonia levels etc. This thread is to help with bornlooser's wigglers.

[Kldiscusfarm]

yeah sure

[bornlooser]

Running out of ideas....could it be due to gill flukes....

[shawnhu]

Running out of ideas....could it be due to gill flukes....

If you're getting gill flukes, you'll have to verify via microscope. Treating for gill flukes is tough, especially if you are unsure.

[nc0gnet0]

I have an idea :balloon:

Day one
Step one: pull the parents from the breeding tank
Step two: sanitize the breeding tank with bleach and clean the filter real good (no bleach on the filter)
Step three: re-introduce the parents back to the breeding tank after it has been cleaned and refilled
Step four: treat parents with 2 ppm PP for four hours
Step 5: sanitize storage barrel

Day two
feed and water change as normal

Day three
Treat parents with Anti-Fluke Life bearer as directed. Do not substitute for another medication if at all possible, as I don't suspect flukes to be the issue, but rather something else that it will also treat and something like prazi won't.


After eggs have been layed
Step one: Add meth blue as you would normally do
Step two: on day one of eggs being layed again treat with anti-fluke lifebeare as directed.

Observe carefully throughout the process and note any small changes (even though you might think them insignificant). Don't shortcut and skip steps. Nailing down a problem like this is a process of elimination. If this doesn't work, you will then need to focus on diet of the breeding pairs and/or water. If it does work, it points to either small parasitic protozoa(in which the parents have developed immunity/resistance) or flukes. I suspect the former.

Rick

[bornlooser]

Thanks a lot Rick,advise is greatly appreciated...at the moment i am treating the parent stock with flubendazole as directed(Kusuri new wormer plus)..plan to do the whole treatment for 21 days.

[BobDaniel]

If you continue to have the problem, find a decent microscope and examine the dead/dying fry. You may be able to determine from an exam what the underlying issues are.

Also, how are you testing the water? If using a pH meter, is is calibrated and is it accurate? The same with your TDS meter...

Lastly, try dripping the water change water through a deep bed of activated carbon BEFORE putting the water into the parent tank. It would not surprise me if there was something in the water the parents tolerate but is too much for fry. I had that problem in Westford.

[Maincourse]

I think higher the ph made egg shells too hard for fry to break thru or male sperms to go in to fertilize the eggs....read about it somewhere

[shawnhu]

I think higher the ph made egg shells too hard for fry to break thru or male sperms to go in to fertilize the eggs....read about it somewhere

High calcium levels will harden the egg shells, which is gh related, not ph.

[mmorris]

The problem isn't gill flukes. That's not to say your fish don't have gill flukes, of course. I highly recommend you do not medicate unless you know what you are medicating for. Could the three pairs be inexperienced? How many batches have each of the three problem pairs had? Are they fighting and knocking fry off? How many actually hatch? If there aren't enough for them to bother with, they'll eat them or leave them on the bottom when they fall off, as fry sometimes tend to do. Are you adding anything else to your water, like calcium or magnesium? When I have added it, the fry slid right off the cone. You currently have five producing pairs? If so, I am impressed. If not, how long ago was your last successful batch of fry? Are you having success and failure all at the same time with five currently producing pairs? I like the activated carbon idea.

[nc0gnet0]

Martha,

he summed it up pretty good right here:


I have had 3 pairs in 3 different tanks laying eggs...the eggs hatch with a relatively high hatch rate , but after 24 hours or so the wrigglers simply fall off the cone and are all dead(they do not wriggle).I can eliminate the weak gene/underdeveloped eggs theory because it simply cant apply to all three pairs.

[Eddie]

Have you tried to clean the pairs up? I know someone mentioned gill flukes but there are other bugs in the tank that can overrun the wrigglers. Just an idea

[mmorris]

Martha,

he summed it up pretty good right here: I was looking for additional information that might point to the problem.

[nc0gnet0]

I know someone mentioned gill flukes but there are other bugs in the tank that can overrun the wrigglers.

I suspect ectoparasitic protozoans, possibly bacterial..........Life bearer will treat the protozoans as well as flukes (although I don't suspect flukes to be the culprit here).

Matha, it is my understanding that the wigglers are dieing then falling of the cone, not gettting bumped from the cone and then eventually dieing. He also stated that he had good hatch rates. Successful batches seem to suggest 02 is ok (from a tds,ph,etc standpoint). Having other batches fail in the same manner seems to eliminate genetics.

How good are you at cleaning your filter?

Rick

[bornlooser]

Hi All

Thanks a lot for the continued interest....

Bob..I use calibrated PH and TDS meters from ebay....and API strips for the other tests.Since i have had 3 successful spawns can i eliminate Water as being the issue? i shall try dripping water through Carbon as the last resort.

Rick...I remove the sponge filter just after spawn before adding Meth Blue(MB), because there is no point in having a Bio Filter because MB is going to kill it anyway.

Eddie... I plan to clean them up with a good anti-parasite and move them into new tanks with new filters.. i am in the process of shifting my fish room.

Could someone pls suggest a good anti-parasite other than Potassium Permanganate(PP)...i tried it out on a runt (24 hour bath at 2mg per liter) that succumbed to it...think my PH (7.5) is too high for PP.I would also like to avoid Formalin for obvious reasons . Thinking of a 3% short Salt bath until the fish looses equilibrium ...every 3 days for 3 treatments before transferring them to the new set-up.

Martha,...i do not add Calcium or Magnesium to the water...only Prime ....can we rule out water?

I am beginning to narrow it down to Bacterial infection or to the silicon in the tank...but more towards bacterial..thinking of adding an antibiotic 12 hours before hatch, if the elimination of parasites does not solve the problem . Andrew Soh recommends his in his books , he does not mention names of antibiotics,but recommends his product Fucin ,which is beyond my reach...need to look for an antibiotic that is ok for fry...any ideas?I add Andrews Pro-growth and Pro-More to my Beef Heart mix too.
Thanks.


thanks

[mmorris]

Matha, it is my understanding that the wigglers are dieing then falling of the cone, not gettting bumped from the cone and then eventually dieing.
Rick
I'm not under the impression he knew which came first. No, we cannot rule out water. Again,
1. Could the three pairs be inexperienced?
2. How many batches have each of the three problem pairs had?
3. Are they fighting and knocking fry off?
4. How many actually hatch? If there aren't enough for them to bother with, they'll eat them or leave them on the bottom when they fall off, as fry sometimes tend to do.
5. How long ago was your last successful batch of fry? Are you having success and failure all at the same time with five currently producing pairs?

[bornlooser]

Hi Matha.
1) Out of the three problem pairs one(Red Melon) has had a successful batch about 5 months ago (i bought the pair with 2 week old fry from a local breeder) since then this pair has been laying eggs quite regularly in my tank without success ,i even separated the pair for about a month with a mesh thinking the female was laying underdeveloped eggs,the eggs hatched most often but as i mentioned the wrigglers lacked vigor..they began to drop off the cone (i have used ceramic and pvc cones sometimes they used to lay on the glass) and the parents pick them up and blow them to the site to no avail.But one particular batch i remember had about 8 fry that survived for about a week,but were gone the following day with a new clutch of eggs on the wall.

2)I have lost count but...but the Red melon may have laid about 10 times.

3)No fights.

4)Hatch rate is about 75%-80%..quite large batches sometimes close to 100.

5)Last successful batch was about 2 months ago...this batch has not spawned since.

Thanks

[mmorris]

Why did I think you had five pairs? Misread, I suppose. Not knowing how long ago you got the red melon pair, was the successful batch of five months ago the same batch you procured at two weeks old? Could you give us the breeding history of each pair?

[Inland Empire Discus]

If it is bacterial try using Fucin. It is a great all around bacterial antibiotic.

[beautifuldiscus]

Bornlooser: any luck solving your problem? I've had the same problem on and off with angel and discus fry. I never had the problem until I moved to NM. I use DI water so it is a bit of a mystery.

[bornlooser]

@beautifuldiscus.....nope,trying various things....shall keep you updated.

[beautifuldiscus]

Thanks and best of luck!

[bornlooser]

I think that i have solved the problem and i believe that i should report on it in the best interest of all.
Its not due to Parasites, Bacteria ,fungi or related to Water parameters but related to water...
It seems that i have been adding too much Anti Chlorine ( Sodium Thiosulphate) into the water ; almost 8 times the amount needed to neutralize the Chlorine in my water!
When checked, the amount of Chlorine in the water is very minimal..and the local product that i have been using has recommended a high dose ....just to be on the safe side.
Since then i have been making my stock solution of anti Chlo...which is very simple and cheap..For those interested. .i add 150 grams of Sodium Thiosulphate into 4 liters of water and use 30ml into 1000 liters to remove chlorine.
thanks.

[shawnhu]

Thanks for reporting back!