Drought

[RodneyL001]

This is just a post with me musing, I know there are many scientist that frequent this forum, might it be time that we come up with a way to care for our beloved discus without having to do daily water changes. I know many of us have several tanks to care for, currently I only have one 125 gal tank, if, for example, I do daily water changes of 50%, that would be over 300 gallons of water that I would use just to take care of my one tank. There are many areas of the country that are having extreme drought these days, therefore, I will dramatically cut back on the number of water changes I do, maybe others might consider other options to care for their tanks as well, at least think about it. Many times adversity brings out new inventions and new ways of doing things, maybe one of our brilliant scientist might come up with a new and more stream-lined way of doing things.

[Pickled_Herring]

Hi Rodney you might want to look in to algae scrubbing systems. I have used them on saltwater and freshwater systems with good results. It appears that the technology has really accelerated over the last 5 years and commercial systems are now available if your not into the DIY aspect of the hobby. If your not familiar with Algae scrubbers they are sort of like having a refugium on steroids. A well designed system can greatly reduce levels of Nitrates, Phosphates, and Ammonia. Many large aquariums use these systems to maintain their water quality. There's plenty of info out there now just Google Algae Scrubber.

[pastry]

Okay, that's wierd... I was just discussing with someone else on how we've come so far with keeping discus yet for some reason it hasn't been solved yet on how to do less WCs but keeping the water quality high for an extended period of time. Thanks Pickled Herring (love the name by the way)! Thanks for asking the question Rodney!

[joanstone]

I'm glad you brought this up as well. It's something that has been bothering me for some time now. The excess use of water makes me feel terribly irresponsible-to the point of not adding to the discus I have. I enjoy them, but I'm having a hard time justifying it, especially when I've been growing batches out. I have a 220 and a 120 and switched the big tank to other types of fish, just keeping discus in the 120. I've always been intrigued with algae scrubbers/natural type aquariums, mostly while I was into saltwater. I'll be interested in people's experiences, but for now WCs seem to be hard to beat in keeping the little darlings happy, unfortunately.

[ExReefer]

I think more of us need to experiment with performing fewer WC’s and share results. Too many of us blindly perform large daily WC’s. Also, BH is cheap and effective. We also know if fouls the water quickly. Could feeding cleaner foods in lieu of BH keep our water cleaner? Cleaner foods may be more expensive, but don’t forget that you will be cutting your WC’s down with these foods which also saves you money.

I personally think fewer WC’s can be done, but people are too concerned with stunting their fish. The upfront costs of the fish is huge for some of us. The thought of stunting them is stressful so few people will experiment with fewer WC’s. It would be great if we started a thread like: 6”+ Discus grown out without daily WC’s. We need people to post photos to support the thread. I know there are some high quality adult discus out there raised without daily WC’s.

In the meantime, here are some ideas on conserving water:

- keep fewer discus aquariums
- keep your aquariums packed with discus (no need for 4-6 adults in 125G with daily WC's)
- drain aquarium water into your yard
- harvest aquarium water to water your garden
- go with bare bottom aquariums (fewer problems, fewer WC's.)

[Lenin]

OK, so here is what I have, I do weekly and sometime bi-weekly water changes, is a 150 with sump, I change the water when my nitrate reading tells me to, I'm doing a micro 100 sock first, they go into a wet-dry then into the sump, I have ceramic rings for bio and I have a sump with a lot of Hawthorn, right now I'm thinking of adding purigen.

I do daily Nitrate readings and change water when necessary, when I change water is 90% water change, also I do not have anything smaller than a 4" Discus in that tank, I still do juvies growouts with daily water changes.

[fredfry]

Exreefer, you are right about the BH fouling the water. The filter floss in my filter turned red from the blood it filtered out.
I now thaw and rinse the BH before I feed and things are looking much nicer.

Fred

[oldfar]

Ok guys going out on a limb here and it may break goto stendker web site life is very different for discus in Germany .you guys read the stocking limit they suggest and WC .I have 12 fish in a75 gal tank right now two beeding pairs and fish from 4''+some 5" now I GOT FROM HANS July 20 these guys can grow .this is no no around here lord help me.I ALSO have an Aquaripure Nitrare filter on tank have not said a word about this on SD my experiment tested water a few before I posted this ,nitrate 5.0ppm nitrite 0 wc sunday night 1/3 I will do a 1/3 wc tonight just to get poop I have tank pics up around here.I feed very heavy FDBW BH FLAKES AND I HATE this bh but they love it only before wc.

[Wjmulder]

[QUOTE=ExReefer;920584]I think more of us need to experiment with performing fewer WC’s and share results. Too many of us blindly perform large daily WC’s.

What I have learned on SD;

-you should do daily or even twice daily water changes
-you should have a bare bottom tank
-you should purchase your fish from a sponsor
-if your new to discus you should purchase the more expensive adult discus
-you should age your water for 24 hours
-you should be familiar with the disease questionnaire if you stray from any of the above items.

What I do;

-twice a week 80% water changes
-sand bottom with a few plants and driftwood
-purchased discus from a LFS (yep, I admit it)
-purchased 2 inch juvies
-water comes straight from the tap
-I've memorized the disease questionnaire

My fish are in a tank for me to enjoy, I'm not here for them. Beef heart is only a small part of their high protein diet and I only use frozen so it's not messy. I tried following the rules for a while and found myself a slave to what I saw as an ugly sterile glass box. I've had my discus since around march and most of them are between 4 and 5 inches. I have never had to post in the disease section, if a fish doesn't eat for a few days or gets a spot or scrape I don't freak out and beg for info on what medications I should throw in the tank. (I have had all of the above and nature has cleared it up every time) I do not advocate using my methods, I know it's not the optimal situation, but if I have to keep discus the optimal way I won't keep them at all. I have no intentions of entering my discus in any competitions.

All of this being said, I thoroughly enjoy being a part of this forum and seeing how others work to get optimal results when breeding and raising their fish. I'm following the current contest with great interest. I also get a kick out of the sense of humor so many members have and I hope I never have to post in the disease section because this post will undoubtedly be thrown back in my face....even if it's 3 years from now (saw that recently too)

If you wonder why more people don't report alternative methods, just read Shawnhu's thread and you'll see the reactions, you'd think he was an alien. Something else I found interesting lately is that forever you could only have 1 discus for every 10 gallons of water, Now after the last convention we should pack em in? Im confused.

Sorry for the long post, I was bored :)

[BobDaniel]

This thread sparked some interest in an algae scrubber. The article I read on Wikipedia describes how these work and how to build one. It seems from the article if you have green hair algae in your aquarium, that is the type used in the scrubber. The article said a 100 gallon tank should have a scrubber sized 1 sq. inch for every gallon and 1 watt actual light for each gal.

Why not let green hair algae grow on one end of the aquarium? In many of my aquariums in Westford, combating the green algae was an ongoing struggle.

[pastry]

where the heck have you all been????????????? it's about time you showed up. nothing against the "bare bottomers" but nice to see others who do the same type of care. i haven't posted much until lately since getting a whole new batch of little guys yet i've always jumped in from time to time to read the planted section and that's it. always hated seeing people try to demotivate others to try OR people that were totally content and would show off their discus only to get criticized. i almost said the heck with SD not too long ago if it wasn't for an administrator (Paul) stepping in. others all of a sudden started helping without harping on me and it was a relief since i was only trying to ask for help when an unexpected circumstance showed up.

now i have increased the WC as much as i can since 5 of the 8 new ones i have are tiny tiny tiny but yes, i used to just do one huge WC once a week (or even two weeks). i have a canister filter (fluval 405). sand i took from the beach. wood from a local lake. my last batch of discus only made it to 4.5-5.5 inches but that's because i stunted all but 3 by keeping them in a small 30 gallon and then the others were stunted at the LFS. as soon as i got the 150 they added on growth that i hadn't expected (since there about 1.5-2 years old by then). 5 tetras turned into 30 as well. discus breeding like crazy and even had one pair raise little ones in the community tank (until i killed the little guys when i switched to the canister... long story but have an old video of them on an old thread if you're curious).

well i'll stop now but please keep the communication coming. it helps me learn as well (i only have one tank so can't do but so much experimenting). thanks -- pastry.

ps -- i put a few new and old pics of my tank in the thread i have in the planted section if anyone's interested as well

[DLock3d]

Every drop of water that I change goes on to my lawn. I don't feel guilty at all. The water that does go on my lawn isn't nearly enough to quench even a quarter of it. (I don't have a mammoth lawn). If there's another way you can recycle your water, I'd look in to it.

[dpete9]

These kind of discussions are great and I hope some new ideas maybe leading to new advanced technologies can come from discussions like this.
For me, like so many others I am fearful of change... Daily water changes work for me and I would be really nervous to change that without some proof from others. I hope this discussion keeps going.

[shrimper]

I wonder if there are any Discus keepers from Queensland Australia in the forum?

Just few year back in the height of the drought in Australia 2007, Brisbane had the severest water restriction placed on them.

As an example of how bad it got, the Darling River, which is 1400km stretch of Murry-Darling river was 100% dry.

As a perspective, Murray Darling river is to Aussies like Mississippi is to Americans or the Rhine is to the Germans.

this drought lasted 7 years or so and water retrictons was gradually increased. So it might give us some insight?

[ganesan]

my advise is to go for b.b tanks and do a daily w.c of about 20% by just removing the detritus collected in the bottom and suggest feeding beefheart in a frozen state without thawing(in this way water does not polluted easily and discus will eat them).
keep good sponge filtration(i keep four of them in my 6 feet tank) and also have 2 canisters one jbl 1501 and one boyu-E50.Though the tank may not seem aesthetically pleasing for the eye as there are no woods/plants/rocks it is easy to maintain and I use the drained water for my garden plants and the discus which is about 20 in number about 4 inch size are doing well.I use aged water and never ro water.But i have seen when a discus needs to be put on medication using r,o water only with the med in a small tank or plastic bucket works excellent rather than tap water, also api stress coat does a great job.

[TURQ64]

The drought here in the upper midwest is brutal; no need to go to any depth as the tv news is full of it..My waste goes to the gardens this time of year. RO reject plumbs back to the house for general usage. wc goes to the lawn, but I have done total reclamation, it's just expensive..You can contain, settle out, filter, and purify all wc water for reuse, just costly for parts and filters, but do-able when facing supply issues...

[lipadj46]

As mentioned above by exreefer people can complain all they want about the "strict adherence to water changes and bare bottom" advice that is prescribed here on this site but until there is proof that the alternatives work as well then you are probably not going to see a change in attitude. If you can show that you can use the denitrators (whether they be the slow flow reactors, deep sand beds, sand reactors, algae scrubbers, plants in sump etc) and start with good fish at 2" (from kenny or hans etc) and raise them to be big and round with a couple 7"+ (standard length) monsters in the group with say weekly/bi-weekly water changes then people will start to come around. So far no one has done anything close to this, we see lots of nice "average" sized fish grown out in planted tanks but no monsters. We've seen recently the pics of the 8" monsters that can be had by traditional methods so someone will need to do the same using a high tech approach. Something like that will take at least a year and more like 18 months to grow out to full adult size. So who is going to put in the work to challenge the status quo instead of just complain about it?

[DLock3d]

The drought here in the upper midwest is brutal; no need to go to any depth as the tv news is full of it..My waste goes to the gardens this time of year. RO reject plumbs back to the house for general usage. wc goes to the lawn, but I have done total reclamation, it's just expensive..You can contain, settle out, filter, and purify all wc water for reuse, just costly for parts and filters, but do-able when facing supply issues....

Turq, can you explain/show how you did that? I too am looking for a way to recycle my waste water.

[TURQ64]

For me, it was a great experiment, but the cost in electricty, filters, and parts made it not do-able for my fixed budget retirement..No in progress photo's, sorry, but never took any...Ran it for 6-7 months to get a good feeling for how it went..Basically, two storage tanks. First one water was pumped from wc's (not poop siphoning) into, let settle for a day or two,chlorinated, then into the second tank passing thru a pair of carbon block filters between the tanks. required a large pressure pump to force it from here on...from second tank, into a another carbon block, then thru a three stage RO specifically for this function alone..from there, back into fish tanks....I'll do it again if necessary, but my water costs are fairly cheap by the 10k gallon units, so I presently just 'second usage' all water..

[ExReefer]

I guarantee there are some people doing daily WC's on their adult fish. Now that's a waste.

[Lenin]

These are the comments that start the non-productive conversations


I guarantee there are some people doing daily WC's on their adult fish. Now that's a waste.

[gwrace]

Having just gone through one of the worst droughts in Texas history where we didn't see a drop of rain for 1.5 years I was thinking the same thing. I have 4 discus tanks and we are on a private well. Fresh water conservation these days is important. I do recycle all my waste water to the trees, grass and plants outside but it still adds up to a lot of water usage. I'm running a small test on two of my 4 tanks. They were already over filtered with a large canister, HOB and sponge filters. I have recently added a fluidized sand filter and a 15 watt TMC UV sterilizer to the output side of the canister filter where I can control the flow through the SF and UV. I wanted to see how it impacts water quality and REDOX. On these two tanks I have reduced water changes to once per week. So far no bad results. Water is super clear, algae is non-existant and fish seem very colorful and active. Only time will tell.

[pastry]

lipadl46... I don't need 7" fish. I'd be fine with 5.5-6" fish in my planted tank without doing daily WCs. What I'm not fine with is people criticizing people that are proud of their 5.5-6" fish. You can take your 8" fish and go win some contest. I just like to do it for fun :)

[ExReefer]

Having just gone through one of the worst droughts in Texas history where we didn't see a drop of rain for 1.5 years I was thinking the same thing. I have 4 discus tanks and we are on a private well. Fresh water conservation these days is important. I do recycle all my waste water to the trees, grass and plants outside but it still adds up to a lot of water usage. I'm running a small test on two of my 4 tanks. They were already over filtered with a large canister, HOB and sponge filters. I have recently added a fluidized sand filter and a 15 watt TMC UV sterilizer to the output side of the canister filter where I can control the flow through the SF and UV. I wanted to see how it impacts water quality and REDOX. On these two tanks I have reduced water changes to once per week. So far no bad results. Water is super clear, algae is non-existant and fish seem very colorful and active. Only time will tell.

Great post! Thanks for sharing.

[Rummy]

Having just gone through one of the worst droughts in Texas history where we didn't see a drop of rain for 1.5 years I was thinking the same thing. I have 4 discus tanks and we are on a private well. Fresh water conservation these days is important. I do recycle all my waste water to the trees, grass and plants outside but it still adds up to a lot of water usage. I'm running a small test on two of my 4 tanks. They were already over filtered with a large canister, HOB and sponge filters. I have recently added a fluidized sand filter and a 15 watt TMC UV sterilizer to the output side of the canister filter where I can control the flow through the SF and UV. I wanted to see how it impacts water quality and REDOX. On these two tanks I have reduced water changes to once per week. So far no bad results. Water is super clear, algae is non-existant and fish seem very colorful and active. Only time will tell.

Any updates on your test tank? I would be interested to know. Thanks

[TNT77]

lipadl46... I don't need 7" fish. I'd be fine with 5.5-6" fish in my planted tank without doing daily WCs. What I'm not fine with is people criticizing people that are proud of their 5.5-6" fish. You can take your 8" fish and go win some contest. I just like to do it for fun :)
Really good luck getting them to 5-6" in a planted tank. Most people get them to that size in bb tanks with regular changes. Most Ive seen raised in planted tanks hit 4" if they are lucky. People don't criticize about size here mainly its shape..if it could score a touchdown I'm sure you will see plenty of comments.
I grew up learning..you only get out of something what you put into it.

[dprais1]

try this forum http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/

the problem, i thought was that an algea scrubber for a discus tank would need to be BIG. the size has nothing to do with gallons of water in the tank, but instead on how much food you feed per day. to build one with the right wattage you really need to use LEDs. I think I figured it would cost me at least 140.00 just for the LEDs.. at that was going to be a really conservative algea scrubber.


There is the theory that fish, including discus, produce growth inhibiting hormones. Without big w/c this would cause stunting in discus even if nitrate levels are controlled. But as of my knowledge this is theory and even if it was fact it remains to be seen what actual impact the hormones would have.

FYI I recently visited someones house that had 5 HUGE discus in a 125. 3" of gravel, canister filter and sponge filter. They must have been at least 7". He said he got htem at about 4" and does weekly 30% wc. NO beefheart.

what someone needs to do is take a batch of fry. a big batch, over 60, divide them in two groups. one group daily wc and the other weekly. foods and temp and filtration would need to be the same. Then document results.

I think we can all agree daily wc will get big growth faster but that doesn't mean that slower growth rates won't eventually produce the same size. It might take 24 months instead if 12 months....

[TNT77]

try this forum http://www.algaescrubber.net/forums/

the problem, i thought was that an algea scrubber for a discus tank would need to be BIG. the size has nothing to do with gallons of water in the tank, but instead on how much food you feed per day. to build one with the right wattage you really need to use LEDs. I think I figured it would cost me at least 140.00 just for the LEDs.. at that was going to be a really conservative algea scrubber.


There is the theory that fish, including discus, produce growth inhibiting hormones. Without big w/c this would cause stunting in discus even if nitrate levels are controlled. But as of my knowledge this is theory and even if it was fact it remains to be seen what actual impact the hormones would have.

FYI I recently visited someones house that had 5 HUGE discus in a 125. 3" of gravel, canister filter and sponge filter. They must have been at least 7". He said he got htem at about 4" and does weekly 30% wc. NO beefheart.

what someone needs to do is take a batch of fry. a big batch, over 60, divide them in two groups. one group daily wc and the other weekly. foods and temp and filtration would need to be the same. Then document results.

I think we can all agree daily wc will get big growth faster but that doesn't mean that slower growth rates won't eventually produce the same size. It might take 24 months instead if 12 months....
Just going to point out that 4" fish and 2-3" fish like most people throw in these tanks there is a huge difference in growth rates and chances of stunting. Believe me been there done that years and years ago.

[dprais1]

I'll bring it up again because I want to. In snakes you can feed them really often smaller meals and they will reach maturity in 9-12 months instead of 18-24months.

They will also end up wth big bodies, smaller heads and smaller eyes. Very unhealthy for the snakes. My personal belief is that discus that are fed lots of beefheart or anything and are grown-out quickly also develop these small eyes (which is considered desirable) and their long term health may be at risk.

[dprais1]

Just going to point out that 4" fish and 2-3" fish like most people throw in these tanks there is a huge difference in growth rates and chances of stunting. Believe me been there done that years and years ago.

I agree 100% from my own personal experience. and that was with daily wc and bare bottom or a little sand. -Part of the reason I made sure i included they were 4" when he got them. I don't want to misinform or misrepresent the information i'm relaying

And since i'm at it, so much of this is personal choice. my wife wanted me to purposefully stunt some discus so there would always be a variety of sizes in the tank!! Non- fish people:angry: they just don'y get it

[TNT77]

I'll bring it up again because I want to. In snakes you can feed them really often smaller meals and they will reach maturity in 9-12 months instead of 18-24months.

They will also end up wth big bodies, smaller heads and smaller eyes. Very unhealthy for the snakes. My personal belief is that discus that are fed lots of beefheart or anything and are grown-out quickly also develop these small eyes (which is considered desirable) and their long term health may be at risk.
I never had any of my old stunted discus outlive any of my healthy large ones. I think the smaller eye for the most part has come from selective breeding not overfeeding. If you look at pictures of fish even the larger fish from years and years ago you can see a difference in eye size. My first discus were Wattley turqs about 18yrs ago. One ended up being around 8.5" the rest between 6"-7.5" and the eye size was nothing comparable to what I see on my large fish today. So you cannot say that it IS one thing or another. It is possible that overfeeding can shorten their life sure. Fatty deposits in internal organs will kill any animal. But stunting can eventually kill them also. So which is the bigger issue...starving them or making them fat. Guess its your choice.

[dprais1]

I never had any of my old stunted discus outlive any of my healthy large ones. I think the smaller eye for the most part has come from selective breeding not overfeeding. If you look at pictures of fish even the larger fish from years and years ago you can see a difference in eye size. My first discus were Wattley turqs about 18yrs ago. One ended up being around 8.5" the rest between 6"-7.5" and the eye size was nothing comparable to what I see on my large fish today. So you cannot say that it IS one thing or another. It is possible that overfeeding can shorten their life sure. Fatty deposits in internal organs will kill any animal. But stunting can eventually kill them also. So which is the bigger issue...starving them or making them fat. Guess its your choice.

I'm not trying to argue- I'm just saying it is my personal belief. And i'm sure selective breeding plays a part as well and maybe different husbandry practices also. But the eye is a very complex part of the body, I'm not so sure I agree that eye size can change that much from selective breeding in such a short time.

18years, say 18 generations...? Just my opinion.

But you are right, I can't and I'm not saying that it IS one thing or another. Just my opinion.

So which is the bigger issue...starving them or making them fat. Guess its your choice

Actually it is not. you can starve them, feed them a little less than they need, feed them exactly what they need, feed them a little too much, feed them a lot too much. or anywhere in the spectrum from grossly overfeeding them to not feeding them at all.

What other carnivorous animal, from a puppy to a human do we allow to feed and encourage to eat as much as possible as often as possible? Why do it with discus?

Anyhow........I'm stepping off my soapbox.


OH! and when I had discus I did 50-95 % wc daily sometimes twice. fed beefheart in many forms and fed them as often as i could. I'm not in a position to recommend any other approach, so I'm not. But I think the topics warrant discussion

[Orange Crush]

It seems the topic has strayed, so back to the water shortage/conservation issue....
As some of you know, my husband and I are buying a house, we will be closing is in less than 2 weeks. Yea! Anyways here are my plans for water conservation for the new home....
1) age water in a barrel (rather than using a python which results in water going down the drain)
2) pump water from tank into a different barrel to be used to water lawn/garden
3) place rain barrels under all the drains that are on the outside of the house to use for watering lawn/garden
4) compost food scraps to fertilize garden rather than put them into the garbage disposal (which wastes more water to use)
I will continue my daily water changes but none of the water will be going down the drain or wasted.

[shoveltrash]

OC that's very similar to what I do. in fact I gravity siphon out a window into a 55g barrel, which is used to water gardens, etc.

MY personal issue is RO waste water. I shudder to think how much waste water is going into my septic tank!
so Gary
TURQ65: "RO reject plumbs back to the house for general usage."how did you do this?
right now my RO reject is plumbed into the kitchen drain. I really really want to figure out to how use this water, instead of overloading my septic system.

I think that this is a great topic. one I've spent a lot of time thinking about. however I'm not going to give up my daily WCs yet ;).

[Tommy Saville]

Much depends on why each person keeps Discus. I don't want to show my 16 fish and I doubt if I'll ever get round to breeding them. I just like looking at a bunch of lovely fish of various colours, which I'm trying to keep as healthy as I can. My 2 55-gall tanks are planted, because I like plants too. I change 50% of the water twice a week, hoovering the gravel as I siphon the water into 3-gall buckets and pour it on the garden. The water for the changes is passed through 3 filters, one for removal of chlorine and chloramides, one for nitrate removal, and one for heavy metal removal. The fish seem to be doing OK, growing a bit too ! Here in England we've had a wet summer, but Spring was dry and many areas had restrictions on water use.
Changing 90% of the water daily is beyond possibilities, I'm sorry. I'm fairly new to Discus keeping and I got worried at first, reading all the water chemistry info, but so far I've got away with breaking some of the traditions. I'm constantly wary though, that I'll be taught a lesson !!

[Orange Crush]

I doubt if I'll ever get round to breeding them.
In my experience, you do not get a say in the matter. My fish decided when they wanted to do "it". lol
I never wanted mine to pair up and breed but out of the 6 discus I have, I ended up with 2 confirmed pairs and I am now doing lots of water changes to care for the fry. Be careful what you "wish" for. ;)