Heckel Bar Question (Genetics)

[KrazyNoobs]

I am confused about the Heckel Bar gene.

First of all, is it dominant or recessive?

Secondly, does it share the same chromosome as any other Discus Bars/Patterns? (do other bars and patterns affect its genotype?)

Lastly, has anyone here crossed a Discus Fish with an evident Heckel Bar and a Discus Fish without a Heckel Bar? Any interesting outcomes? If so, did the Heckel Bar disappear, did it replace any traits of the other parent in the fry, and did the Heckel Bar, in anyway, change? Was the form of the bar variable throughout the progeny?

An answer to any of these questions will help me very much.

Thanks!

[BobDaniel]

I seem to recall reading that the late Dr Edward Schmidt-Foche made such a cross years ago.

[Eddie]

There are actually quite a few folks in Europe breeding heckels. These are taken from a group on facebook.

Tonni Bungaard Andreason
75530

Günter Wagenbrenner
75531


The story about the dark heckel bar, from what I gather, is that it will be seen less and less as you inbreed so cross breeding has helped some but still, not many of the progeny show the bar. This picture above from Gunter is a pretty good example. Thats a small group but you can see that some of those don't even have the prominent fifth bar. I'm sure it wall take some extensive breeding efforts to try get that bar to breed true every time if its at all possible.

[nc0gnet0]

It's not controlled by one specific gene, thats a misconception, but rather a combination of genes/alleles, thus making it much harder to breed true. Not so sure that someone "figuring it out" would be a good thing. If that were to happen it would become much more common, and thus, much less desirable.

Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

I am under the impression (common knowledge) that a Heckel X Heckel pairing results in the center bar in all the F1s. In a Heckel X Non-Heckel cross some of the F1s will have the Heckel bar and if the F1s are crossed the Heckel bar disappears in the F2s.

JamesP here on simply is working with his own Heckel crosses.

[Eddie]

I am under the impression (common knowledge) that a Heckel X Heckel pairing results in the center bar in all the F1s. In a Heckel X Non-Heckel cross some of the F1s will have the Heckel bar and if the F1s are crossed the Heckel bar disappears in the F2s.

JamesP here on simply is working with his own Heckel crosses.

Not from the pictures of broods I've seen. There are some without but that could be due to the actual genetics of one of the parents, if it were a natural/wild cross of some sort.

[Second Hand Pat]

That is interesting Eddie and could mean some of the Heckel crosses you see during the wilds season are actually full Heckels.

[John_Nicholson]

I saw the pictures of when Dennis H. from Oregon bred them. I think he said it was maybe the 70's. Anyway 2 heckle parents...spawn was 1/2 heckle and 1/2 browns.

-john

[Eddie]

I saw the pictures of when Dennis H. from Oregon bred them. I think he said it was maybe the 70's. Anyway 2 heckle parents...spawn was 1/2 heckle and 1/2 browns.

-john

Yeah, from what I have seen, thats generally the turnout. Never seen whole brood with the dark fifth bar. I remember reading about the heckel genetics being pretty special.

[John_Nicholson]

At some point I hope to jack around with them again. The little bit that I have messed with the heckle bar I was disappointed.

-john

[Eddie]

At some point I hope to jack around with them again. The little bit that I have messed with the heckle bar I was disappointed.

-john

Empty your inbox! LMAO

[John_Nicholson]

Done.

-john

[KrazyNoobs]

Thank you very much everyone, lots of this information is useful.

I remember seeing this picture of Heckel Discus that were entirely blue, but had the bar. If I find it, I will share a link.

[Eddie]

Thank you very much everyone, lots of this information is useful.

I remember seeing this picture of Heckel Discus that were entirely blue, but had the bar. If I find it, I will share a link.

That would be a cross. I know exactly which fish you are talking about. Was a gorgeous fish indeed but that dark bar would have gotten lost in the offspring unless that fish was crossed with another heckel.

[John_Nicholson]

Yep one of my favorite pictures.

-john

[TURQ64]

With a little over a year in this current Heckel project, it's a good spot for an update. These Heckel crosses are a little over a year old now, and some are pairing up..Several F1 to F1, and one F1/ Heckel interest..might not be too long for a few of these answers where I can do a good exam..in front of my nose! Photo's are from this a.m. just after feeding time..

http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0401.jpg
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0403.jpg
http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/Royaliste/Fish/DSC_0406.jpg

[Eddie]

Gorgeous F1s too! NICE!

[Brokenrack]

Gorgeous F1s too! NICE!+1

[John_Nicholson]

Gary they are looking great.

-john

[DiscusOnly]

Wow.. very nice Gary!

What are you feeding them? Yours is a lot more colored up than mine. I am hoping mine would color up like that in the near future.

Van

[nevsfish]

7555275553hi everyone not really sure if this fish is a heckle cross i bought it as a green turk at 6 cm but i like the pronounced 5th bar.

[Eddie]

Certainly looks like a cross. Similar to mine too.

[John_Nicholson]

7555275553hi everyone not really sure if this fish is a heckle cross i bought it as a green turk at 6 cm but i like the pronounced 5th bar.

Love that color.

-john

[nevsfish]

75555i got these heckle crosses from another breeder and these don't have the pronounced 5th bar but still nice fish.would it be worth crossing these fish with the one with the prounced 5th bar in my last post.or would i need to add in a wild heckel to the fish in the last post.any opinions

[Eddie]

I mean, if you can breed the heckel with the heckel cross, that would be the route to go in my opinion. By the looks of it, that one you posted first looks like a male. Is it a male?

[nevsfish]

yes i think it is a male i also have a female from the same batch with the pronounced 5th bar maybe i should see if they will pair up and see what the outcome will be .

[Eddie]

yes i think it is a male i also have a female from the same batch with the pronounced 5th bar maybe i should see if they will pair up and see what the outcome will be .

Might do that then.

[nevsfish]

75565here is a photo of what i hope is a female to go with the fish from my first post fingers crossed it is female.

[JamesP]

Gary, the F1's are looking great. Like Gary, mine are definitely starting to pair up and time will tell on the center bar. The bar is something I plan to chase multiple ways. I have F1's similar to Gary's photos along with nice mature Heckels along with the male Heckel from the original pairing to use for creating new pairs. One fact not mentioned is that we don't know the genetics of any fish we acquire from the wild. So what we think are true Heckels may in fact be crosses themselves. So results from the few breedings recorded are hard to quantify. I used a 14 bar for my cross which helps to eliminate some traits. If they are 9 bars they don't have the 14 bar traits since it is dominant. So working with the nine bars should be a little more straight forward. Interesting the 14 bars are turning into very nice fineline Snakes. I am planning on crossing them with their fellow F1's as well.

[KrazyNoobs]

With a little over a year in this current Heckel project, it's a good spot for an update. These Heckel crosses are a little over a year old now, and some are pairing up..Several F1 to F1, and one F1/ Heckel interest..might not be too long for a few of these answers where I can do a good exam..in front of my nose! Photo's are from this a.m. just after feeding time..



These are incredible! Nice job! :D

[KrazyNoobs]

That is close to the picture I saw. Very beautiful, by the way.

[TURQ64]

Van, Not much has changed in their diet; 2 types of flake (colormax with naturose, and primium spirulina, both from Ken's), a large amount of freeze-dried bloodworms, also from Ken's, and frozen Blackworms from Dan... I'm with Jim on the unknowns of the Heckel's themselves, so I have several varieties of adult wild Heckel's in this stew also...the photo's I put up were hasty; the fish actually look much better...By this time next year, I think between JamesP and I juggling Heckel's, we'll see a few answers on the Heckel bar...These crosses display differently as adults compared to their grow out period. They pretty well mimic the wild counterparts, but the center bar just isn't as wide as the other wilds....

[DiscusOnly]

Van, Not much has changed in their diet; 2 types of flake (colormax with naturose, and primium spirulina, both from Ken's), a large amount of freeze-dried bloodworms, also from Ken's, and frozen Blackworms from Dan... I'm with Jim on the unknowns of the Heckel's themselves, so I have several varieties of adult wild Heckel's in this stew also...the photo's I put up were hasty; the fish actually look much better...By this time next year, I think between JamesP and I juggling Heckel's, we'll see a few answers on the Heckel bar...These crosses display differently as adults compared to their grow out period. They pretty well mimic the wild counterparts, but the center bar just isn't as wide as the other wilds....

Thanks Gary.

I've was using Angelplus flakes along with FDBW and Sera pellets. For the past week, I've been adding Grand Sumo Red to their diet. They are slowly adjusting to these pellets. I like to see how they color up with this flowerhorn food.

[Kerrie]

Hi Nev,
I am interested in how you breeding attempts with your heckle x's are going and the outcome of this. I am in Brisbane and am going to be purchasing a heckle x (prominent 5th) male and a giant red turq female pair soon. Was wondering where your original stock came from? What outcomes could I expect from the genetics of this pair (on face value of course).
Interested in how everyone else's crosses are going as well!
Cheers
Kerrie

[Carolina discus]

I dont have any "expert input" on this subject but am working with some heckle crosses....here are a few.....looking forward to see how the fry develop and then I can provide experienced feedback

All the best....