Where can I get some Potassium Permaganate

[BobDaniel]

I contacted Carolina Biological Supply but they won't sell to me as I am not a commercial operation. None of the area pet shops carry it. I don't think Kensfish or Jehmco do either.

I only have a 75 gal. but I'd like enough for three+ doses.

[yim11]

ebay, cheap.

[Skip]

ditto on EBAY

Grainger online also

[MKD]

or local Koi Pond store.

[Eddie]

4fishstuff.com

[BobDaniel]

Thanks! Scored 30 grams some off Ebay.

[lipadj46]

Ace around here has pounds of it for cheap.

sent from an undisclosed location using morse code

[Keith Perkins]

Thanks! Scored 30 grams some off Ebay.

Just out of curiosity, what did you pay for it with shipping?

[Teshi]

I got mine at Ace Hardware

[BobDaniel]

Just out of curiosity, what did you pay for it with shipping?

Under five bucks!

[Keith Perkins]

I went and looked, but didn't getting around to posting back. I've sent forum members 35 grams before, it's the perfect amount for mixing stock solution in a Snapple bottle. I figure it's almost a lifetime supply for my size room and I want to keep that stuff in glass for long term storage. The first member just me $5 for the trouble and I've just asked for that ever since. Of course I do supply a copy of very good instructions. :)

[fdlacy]

I just purchased a 2LB container online for $14.99 + $7.99 shipping. That should last me a while :-)

[Skip]

I just purchased a 2LB container online for $14.99 + $7.99 shipping. That should last me a while :-)

you should sell some off

[bogia99]

I am curious to know if you have the dosage for a 75G ? And how do you neutralize the PP once done ? also at what dosage ?

[Keith Perkins]

I am curious to know if you have the dosage for a 75G ? And how do you neutralize the PP once done ? also at what dosage ?

Generally you make up a stock solution using 75 grams of PP to a litre of water and then dose with that at 2 drops per gallon. Hydrogen Peroxide is normally used to neutralize it using 1 teaspoon of 6% by volume H2O2, then repeating after a few minutes if the water doesn't clear. All the Hydrogen Peroxide I've found is only 3% by volume, so the dose is doubled. Dechlorinator can also be used. I have a very good set of full instructions if you or anyone else wants them, just PM me your e-mail address I can send them to you. The BIDKA forum also has them in their library. Mine just don't have the litre and imperial gallon conversions in them.

[BobDaniel]

Here is a decent article on using PP and calculation of doseage: http://cefishessentials.com/index.php?route=news%2Fnews&npath=1_12&news_id=22

[bogia99]

Maybe I didn't have luck with PP. I have used PP many time before treating Koi and other fresh water fishes. But it was the 1st time I tried it with Discus and turned out a disaster.

Using instruction below WILL kill your Discus(es)

Prepared stocking solution pretty much as mentioned in the above link @ 3-4ppm.
dropped water down to 15G and added extra air/water circulation
BB tank - clean - 90% water change daily for a few days prior to treating
a few fishes need to be treated for perhaps an hour or so soaking time
PP solution was added a few spoons at a time over 10 min to make sure achieving the right "pinkish" color
Used less than 1/2 of the planned solution
Saw some fishes were struggling within 15min, immediately added 15ml solution (peroxide) to neutralize PP
Refill water @86F, After a few hours, some fishes recovered and some showed sight of breathing difficulty
Knew right away those fishes with breathing problem got gill damaged from PP
90% water changed every day @ 88F with salt added
Over the next 48-96hrs started losing one by one with gill damaged (large one died first and little frys died later, some frys survived)

learned later that PP will Kill Discus even at ~2ppm and Peroxide will also kill (don't have any statistic on this)

PP has to be the least forgiving med if you make a miscalculation.

I don't use PP as a broad treatment or bath dip for discus any more, maybe cotton swap touchup on the effected area.

I though I knew how to use PP but I didn't.

[Keith Perkins]

Maybe I didn't have luck with PP. I have used PP many time before treating Koi and other fresh water fishes. But it was the 1st time I tried it with Discus and turned out a disaster.

Using instruction below WILL kill your Discus(es)

Prepared stocking solution pretty much as mentioned in the above link @ 3-4ppm.
dropped water down to 15G and added extra air/water circulation
BB tank - clean - 90% water change daily for a few days prior to treating
a few fishes need to be treated for perhaps an hour or so soaking time
PP solution was added a few spoons at a time over 10 min to make sure achieving the right "pinkish" color
Used less than 1/2 of the planned solution
Saw some fishes were struggling within 15min, immediately added 15ml solution (peroxide) to neutralize PP
Refill water @86F, After a few hours, some fishes recovered and some showed sight of breathing difficulty
Knew right away those fishes with breathing problem got gill damaged from PP
90% water changed every day @ 88F with salt added
Over the next 48-96hrs started losing one by one with gill damaged (large one died first and little frys died later, some frys survived)

learned later that PP will Kill Discus even at ~2ppm and Peroxide will also kill (don't have any statistic on this)

PP has to be the least forgiving med if you make a miscalculation.

I don't use PP as a broad treatment or bath dip for discus any more, maybe cotton swap touchup on the effected area.

I though I knew how to use PP but I didn't.

I have used PP somewhere between 1 and 2 dozen times I would guess, on discus as small as an inch and a half and have not experienced anything like what you describe. In all honesty I did on one single occasion treat one and a half inch fish with 4 ppm, because the tank had too much of a bioload on it and the PP started to turn brownish, and I did slightly burn the gills of some of them but they fully recovered in a day or two of normal WCs. I have gone as high as 6 ppm on adult fish in tanks with heavy bioloads without doing any gill damage, but I prefer now to stop treatments at 4 ppm and clean the tank better and start all over if I can't maintain proper PP coloration. I would however never recommend spooning in PP rather than measuring it with an eye dropper. Given the different bioloads tanks could have on them you could easily get into double digit ppm of PP and still not maintain the "pinkish", though I'd call it purple, color that is optimum for a treatment and at those levels you will most certainly inflict harm. The same however is true for most medications you might treat your fish with if you dose at 5 or more times the recommended dosage.

I infer from reading your post that you think you treated your fish with somewhere near 2 ppm of PP, but from my experience that just isn't the case. As the BIDKA forum article says, when used correctly, "Potassium Permanganate (KMnO4) or PP for short, is one of the most useful of all medicines an aquarist can have in his/her fish medicine cabinet."

[bogia99]

you are correct that the color should be purple ... and the dirty bioload for the discus tank was practically nil when compared to koi tank. There was no thing in the tank for the PP to burn except fishes. I was watching for the transition of brownish to "purplish" color. Maybe that one last spoon was enough to push the ppm over the edge. I had two safeguards build in, 1st if using the whole stock solution, it would be no more than 4ppm, 2nd the color transition would be the stopping point. Obviously I must have made an error some where along the way. The area I think I made the miscalculation were eyeballing the 15G (may have been 10G) and I wanted it to be a bit more "purplish" with the last spoon.

A breeder told me that once he treated his tank only with peroxide, and he almost lost the whole tank. maybe 15ml was a bit too much for 10G is the 3rd possibility.

[Keith Perkins]

you are correct that the color should be purple ... and the dirty bioload for the discus tank was practically nil when compared to koi tank. There was no thing in the tank for the PP to burn except fishes. I was watching for the transition of brownish to "purplish" color. Maybe that one last spoon was enough to push the ppm over the edge. I had two safeguards build in, 1st if using the whole stock solution, it would be no more than 4ppm, 2nd the color transition would be the stopping point. Obviously I must have made an error some where along the way. The area I think I made the miscalculation were eyeballing the 15G (may have been 10G) and I wanted it to be a bit more "purplish" with the last spoon.

A breeder told me that once he treated his tank only with peroxide, and he almost lost the whole tank. maybe 15ml was a bit too much for 10G is the 3rd possibility.

I'm a little lost by your comment of eyeballing 15G, is that gallons of water? At first I thought you were referring to grams some how, but now I'm thinking you're talking about the water volume. With the stock solution listed on the BIDKA website that I make up the dose is 2 drops per gallon to reach 2 ppm, or 20 drops for 10 gallons. I just googled the conversion of drops to ml, and 20 drops equals 1 ml. If you made the same stock solution and applied 15ml as you said above I understand your results.

[bogia99]

I weighted PP for a 55G tank and then split it up into 1/4+a pinch for a 15G treatment. Then I dumped this 1/4-PP into a half-full bottle water (I don't use drop dosing as you mentioned). it was a 55G tank and I dropped the water down to 15G for treatment duration and had stock solution prepared for ~15G @ ~4ppm. If I had marked the exact water level of 15G then I think every thing would be okay; however, I think it was more like 10G water remained in the tank. What I noticed was, as soon as I had about 1/2 solution in, it stayed purple. I should have stopped but I added a bit more (I did this with angel and koi and it was okay). if all fishes had died then I knew I was way off on my calculation. But I loss only 1/2 of the tank so I was just over the edge. Judging on the color transition, it wasn't even close to the way I treated koi and angels. On the volume side, I think I was off by 50%. In my mind, I was telling myself that it couldn't have happened. But dying fishes didn't lied.

In any case, I think 2ppm is probably okay. 4ppm is borderline of risk for Discus to go bye-bye. Now, I prefer netting it out and use a soft brush or cotton swap to touch up on the skin (stay away from the gills area) at +10ppm. I still use PP at less than 1ppm weekly as regular maintenance.

I hope this information will help someone to go over the check list twice before using PP.

[BobDaniel]

I had bought a small electronic scale to help me set up my turntable and I think it cost about ten dollars. In the past I used a balance for weighing gunpowder during reloading. I strongly recommend verifying the balance and always using it to measure the meds you give your fish. You have invested a lot of time and money in your hobby so please don;t cut corners here.

A US nickle weighs precisely 5 grams. No need for an expensive calibration weight.

[bornlooser]

I think with PP....watching the PH is important...it can get toxic over a PH of 7 for Discus.The usual dose is 200mgs per 100 L water, this is for a 24 hour bath.( Andrew Soh)

[BobDaniel]

I think with PP....watching the PH is important...it can get toxic over a PH of 7 for Discus.The usual dose is 200mgs per 100 L water, this is for a 24 hour bath.( Andrew Soh)

I'm glad you mentioned that. My pH hangs around 7.8 to 8.0.

[bornlooser]

BobDaniel,
I killed a runt experimenting on a 24 hour PP bath...my PH is around 7.2-7.5.

[Brent1972]

The BIDKA forum also has them in their library. Mine just don't have the litre and imperial gallon conversions in them.

Here is a link to the pp sticky on BIDKA . http://www.bidka.org/pp1.shtml

I use PP at 2ppm for 4 hours with a ph of 7.4 with no problems , I know a lot of people do a 10ppm 20min dip BUT I would not do it as I think it can be to harsh on the fish.

[Keith Perkins]

I know a lot of people do a 10ppm 20min dip BUT I would not do it as I think it can be to harsh on the fish.

+1